Riddle me this:
Your group has been playing through a series of published adventures. Halfway through the series, one player admits he has been "reading ahead."
I personally think this is cheating. Even if a player is only curious and tries his best not to use the knowledge he's gained, it's impossible to completely separate player knowledge from character knowledge. Furthermore, it sends a bad message to one's fellow players, and makes one appear untrustworthy.
Does anyone consider such behavior to not be cheating? If so, why?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Riddle me this:
Your group has been playing through a series of published adventures. Halfway through the series, one player admits he has been "reading ahead."
I personally think this is cheating. Even if a player is only curious and tries his best not to use the knowledge he's gained, it's impossible to completely separate player knowledge from character knowledge. Furthermore, it sends a bad message to one's fellow players, and makes one appear untrustworthy.
Does anyone consider such behavior to not be cheating? If so, why?
I would expect a player to ask me beforehand whether it was allowed. I've been in PbPs where most of the players had read the adventure but that was cool because we were doing it for the role-playing aspect.
Is it cheating? Maybe. Do you ever 'win' at D&D?
Well if the guy had to tell you that he's reading ahead before you knew about it, I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, a DM can never know for sure that any or all of his players haven't already read the published adventure he's running. But I would call it bad form to read the adventure that your DM is running. If it really bothers you that he's reading ahead, switch up adventure details to limit the "cheating" feeling that you're getting. Or kick him out of the game.
TS
Creative Director
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If he's been using the knowledge of the adventure to help his character, then yeah, it's cheating. If he's been able to separate player knowledge from character knowledge, it's not.
It's perfectly possible to play a character in an adventure you've read. I've done it countless times. I've even played characters in adventures I've helped write or edit (see the office Age of Worms campaign as an example), and it's still fun. It's best, of course, if the GM knows going in that a player is familiar with the adventure, partially so the GM can adjust things if he sees fit and partially so he can make sure that the player isn't using his knowledge unfairly. And MOSTLY to keep the bond of trust between player and GM.
I liken the playing of an adventure you've read (or written, or edited) to watching a movie you've seen before with people who haven't seen it. The focus of your own entertainment shifts something away from the game (or movie) and over to the people you're experiencing the entertainment with; it's just as fun (but in a different way) to be entertained by the scares in a movie like "Alien" as it is to experience the movie alongside someone who's never seen the movie. Same goes for RPGs.
But if that player's doing something like hiding the fact that he's read ahead, and looking back over the campaign his character has always known the way to go and the things to do and has made character optimization choices that make sense ONLY given what specific challenges lie ahead... yeah. That's cheating.
But if that player's doing something like hiding the fact that he's read ahead, and looking back over the campaign his character has always known the way to go and the things to do and has made character optimization choices that make sense ONLY given what specific challenges lie ahead... yeah. That's cheating.
Yes, the only thing that would annoy me as DM would be if he's saying things like: "Why don't we take the door on the left and then look in the fake bottom of the wardrobe? I have a good feeling about that..."
I may be the odd person out here, but if I was DMing and running an adventure and part way through a player told me they have been reading it (any of it), I would be very disappointed in them. Now when I game it is only with close-knit friends and family so I don't really have to worry about it. Back in high school and college it was another matter though.
I find out what modules people have gone through prior to the campaign beginning. I make many of my module choices based off of that information. We have repeated the best modules over the years because we liked them, but again, this is playing with well trusted friends and family who are capable of separating player vs. character knolwedge.
If I was to have an outsider do this to me....I would say if you want to game in my campaign you don't read the module until after the characters have finished. If they can't do this, then they don't respect my campaign or me as a DM and they are out. I have discontinued people in campaigns before for inappropriate playing, intentional campaign wrecking, die roll cheating, etc. I don't have an issue with doing so, even if they come back later and say they want to play again. I'll give someone 2 chances if I think its worth it.
All the more reason to play with close-knit family and friends. Regretfully this isn't an option for everyone all the time.
If he's been using the knowledge of the adventure to help his character, then yeah, it's cheating. If he's been able to separate player knowledge from character knowledge, it's not.
I respectfully disagree with James. IMO, the only way it can not be considered cheating is if the player informs the DM at the earliest possible opportunity: "By the way, I have knowledge of this adventure. Is it still okay for me to play in it?" (And the DM says it's okay.)
Anything else is cheating, regardless of how well the player thinks he can compartmentalize his knowledge.
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Here's my take, for what it's worth:
Like James, I agree that reading ahead and making "appropriate" choices based on that knowledge is cheating, plain and simple. "Well, I took Weapon Specialization (Kukri) because I knew there was a super-cool kukri on one of the bad guys," is the worst example, but it could be as simple as "I don't trust this guy."
I think the only way to get away with this is the following process:
1. Tell your DM before the adventure starts so they can comment on your choices if you get mixed up between IC and OOC knowledge. Rangers are the biggest problem, I usually solve it by having the player roll randomly between the "Big 6" monster types, if the adventure involves them.
2. Play your character to intentionally ignore certain parts of the adventure. "Hey, Jimbo, how do we open this door?" "I...don't know." If Jimbo's player really wants to participate, time for some arbitrary Ability checks to allow the player to participate.
3. Even if the character does participate, everything is always phrased under the jurisprudence of the DM. "Hey, let's search the random obelisk for secret compartments!" "Um, no Jimbo. You never search anything, why would you want to search that?"
It's kind of like asking a jury to disregard a statement in court - they've heard it, but they are expected not to act on that knowledge in their decisions. This is difficult with some people, and takes some mutual understanding. I'd recommend the approach only with familiar or mature gaming groups. Otherwise my answer would be "You've read it, you can't play. Why don't you DM so I can play, since I haven't finished reading it?"
By the way, I once ran Red Hand of Doom twice for the same group (first chapter only the second time), but made so many alterations to NPCs that the players had no idea what to expect.
For example, changed Ozyrrandion the Green Dragon into a Bull Rush/Improved Grapple fighter (plus increase to Large size). Nearly TPK'd a 5-PC party. The players were like "Wow, I had no idea that was coming!" It took a lot of work though, but it really gets you into the adventure.
I agree with James. I collect more D&D than anyone else in my group of players. I also DM more than anyone else. But often I enjoy reading the modules just for reading. When I wrapped up my last campaign I asked one of my players to run SCAP for us, with me as a player. I had read it (years ago) I knew I liked it, I wanted a break from DMing all the time and this seemed the best way to get to play in a cool adventure. I still remember some of the more interesting plot elements but I havent a clue how tough anything is or how to get through any puzzle bits because that stuff doesnt really interest me when I read a module for fun. As a result my game play in this campaign is less focussed on problem solving than I would normally be than NPC interaction.
I am not still reading SCAP because I dont want to spoil what surprises I have forgotttn for myself.
If as DM you have not noticed any improper use of knowledge then maybe your player is just one of those people who is enjoying the story so much he/she has to read ahead. Like all those people who want to know what has happened in a sequel book before they read it.The question for you is have they been using the knowledge to damage the game play, including the evenness of the competition and the fun of surprise, for the others?
Having been both DM and player and being over the years member in several groups, many of them using at least some published adventures, this has happened...once it also happened that I had read the relatively obscure short story DM had based the adventure on :)
When this happens I do mention it to the DM and other players, and say that I no longer make major decisions during the adventure (meaning that I can declare I am shooting the orc #2 with magic missile but I don't decide if we should try to talk with the orcs). Also during the tactical decisions I try to separate my IC and OOC knowledge (so if my character has no reason to suspect a hidden sneak attacker coming, she won't plan ahead against that).
DM might also consider making some appropriate changes (changing locations of traps and treasure is always a favorite).
It is a bit unpleasant for all, but showing bit of IC/OOC separation it can be made to work.
I find out what modules people have gone through prior to the campaign beginning. I make many of my module choices based off of that information. We have repeated the best modules over the years because we liked them, but again, this is playing with well trusted friends and family who are capable of separating player vs. character knolwedge.
I certainly agree that if you ask your player what modules he's played and he lies to you, then that's cheating!
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In my group, both the primary DM and myself were collectors of Dungeon. So, I've read through all the issues of AoW, which is our current game (and has been for a while). The DM knows I have those issues, but he trusts me to not go back and read them (in fact, I keep them stored away. That being said, a lot of time has passed since those issues came out, so I don't really remember much anyway, except for a few of the more stand out details. I'm pretty good, however, at separating what my character knows from what I know.
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I am currently running AoW and have made substantial changes in some spots. Those who have copies of the magazines have realized that they can't rely on the information to be accurate.
But to your question, reading the adventure you are about to participate violates the spirit of the game, in my opinion.
I am hard pressed to believe that someone who read Tomb of Horrors, for instance, would separate player from character knowledge when it comes to such things as: The Devil's Head, the False Tomb, the Crown and Scepter, or how to attack the Demi-Lich.
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I prefer to know in advance, as a DM, and I then tweak stuff so that it's completely different. As a player, I've never pretended not to know, and my DMs have either not cared or changed things appropriately. (One offered me a chance to play an NPC Sage, who knew everything I knew about the adventure, but had no class abilities! I passed on that and promised that I wouldn't use my powers for evil.)
As a GM, sometimes I swap out one monster for another. Sometimes I swap around which NPC is 'the secret bad-guy' and which one is the 'good-guy you can trust.' Other times, I don't change a single mechanical stat on the bad-guy, but completely change the appearance, so that it's not recognizable as the same encounter that was faced last time.
To be honest, I usually tweak stuff like this even if the players *haven't* read the adventure or played it before. If my current group ran through Death in Freeport as written, they'd wonder why the monsters were different and who certain NPCs where and why the Temple of the Gods of Knowledge has a different map and...
I've played in Keep in the Borderlands at least a half-dozen times, Against the Giants twice, etc. so I'm fine with multiple run-throughs of the same adventure. Sometimes repetition can be comfortable, and I've read Feist's Magician at least four times and Zelazny's Lord of Light a half-dozen times. Knowing the ending doesn't stop me from enjoying the story. Sometimes it just heightens the experience, knowing that it's only a few pages away that Thomas wrestles with the legacy of the Valheru or Yama confronts the Lord of Illusion.
I am hard pressed to believe that someone who read Tomb of Horrors, for instance, would separate player from character knowledge when it comes to such things as: The Devil's Head, the False Tomb, the Crown and Scepter, or how to attack the Demi-Lich.
I agree that "puzzle dungeons" are impossible to play with foreknowledge. Of course, I hate "puzzle dungeons"! It always seems to boil down to a game of "You'll never guess what I'm thinking..." instead of D&D. (P.S., I was thinking: "Will there ever be a boy born who can swim as fast as a shark?")
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If I was to have an outsider do this to me....I would say if you want to game in my campaign you don't read the module until after the characters have finished. If they can't do this, then they don't respect my campaign or me as a DM and they are out.
I am with Eileen (you're not alone Eileen) and would have the same reaction to the particular context presented by the OP.
I also agree with James (excellent illustration btw) that enjoying a module you've already read, takes a bit of maturity, and it still provides enjoyment in a different way.
In any case, the bonehead to held this information from you, or was using it to metagame is cheating and should be scorned for being a bozo.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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As someone who values the story more than specific mechanical issues, I'd rather someone fudge die rolls than read the adventure and use the knowledge taken from it in-game. That said, if a player can adequately separate in-character and out-of-character knowledge and take his PC in a direction he knows might not be best but works for the story, I have no problem with it. Bust not telling you until after he had done it is a bit unethical, not so much because it gives him an advantage, but because it violates the trust between a player and GM.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Yes, it's cheating but not in the 'win' or 'lose' sense of the word. The player is cheating himself and he's cheating the group. He is also holding cheep the role of the GM and sucking all the surprise and joy out of the game.
I seriously doubt a player that's read ahead would be able to restrain himself. Said player would not be able to resist taking advantage of knowing where treasure is, where monsters are hiding, where the traps are, etc.
Finally, in the entire history of D&D, players have have never been allowed or encouraged to read an adventure ahead of time.
Yes, it's cheating but not in the 'win' or 'lose' sense of the word. The player is cheating himself and he's cheating the group. He is also holding cheep the role of the GM and sucking all the surprise and joy out of the game.
I seriously doubt a player that's read ahead would be able to restrain himself. Said player would not be able to resist taking advantage of knowing where treasure is, where monsters are hiding, where the traps are, etc.
That's pretty strong. I've seen it work for my group on a number of occasions; the player(s) didn't seem to have all that much trouble keeping IC and OOC information separate. It certainly didn't suck all of the fun out of the game. It really depends on the players and GM involved, and also (very much) on how reliant the adventure is on surprise and puzzles.
I ran, about eight years apart, _City of the Spider Queen_ twice with the same player. Both times the first half ran quite well. The parties were so different, it didn't feel like a replay. The second half wasn't good either time (I have no talent and little fondness for high-level play) but not any worse the second time.
We also had two campaigns back when I was in college, different GMs but same setting (about 200 years apart). The campaigns got very intertwined, so the other GM had to know a lot about my campaign backstory and vice versa. That worked, too. It helps to have very strongly flavored characters--not flimsy masks over the players--because that makes it much easier to keep track of what the PC knows as opposed to the player.
In the given situation, I'd ask how long the player had been reading ahead before confessing. If the answer was "a week" I wouldn't think of this as any kind of serious problem--though I would ask myself if the scenario was maybe too hard for the PCs, either tactically or investigatively. Often cheating is a player response to too much difficulty. If the answer was "six weeks", though, I'd be upset about the dishonesty involved.
I do prefer running things the player hasn't seen before; it's a bit more fun. But I can definitely handle running things he's seen before, if that's the material we have available. (I always do change things, but not to reduce the usefulness of player information--just because I'm never quite artistically satisfied unless I tinker.)
Mary
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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That's pretty strong.
So is reading ahead without the knowledge of friends and fellow gamers sitting at the table. The situation is unfair and there really isn't a lot of room to be soft or wishy-washy in this instance. GMs typically go to both expense, in time and money, and considerable effort just to prepare for play. Reading ahead is low and underhanded no matter what the intension is, simply because it creates distrust, introduces doubt as well as the temptation to cheat whether it occured or not. It could also cause others to second guess whether the player actually used his foreknowledge up to the point of discovery. I would dismiss the player from the table.
As for other games and situations, I'm sure there are exceptions and everyone's experience will be different, but the bottom line is that no one really should be reading ahead unless it's agreed upon ahead of time, especially if only a single player is doing it, without, as is the case here, the knowledge of the GM and the other players.
That's pretty strong. I've seen it work for my group on a number of occasions; the player(s) didn't seem to have all that much trouble keeping IC and OOC information separate. It certainly didn't suck all of the fun out of the game. It really depends on the players and GM involved, and also (very much) on how reliant the adventure is on surprise and puzzles.
Yeah, depends on many things...some players are good at separating IC and OOC knowledge, some less so (I have had cases of players saying "I know this is stupid, but this is what my character would do" and I too have consciously acted against my OOC knowledge). And some adventures are better suited for this than others.
I admit of having done this pre-reading for cheating purposes when I was around 13, until I got that it is not fun. Being surprised and amazed is better than "winning" an encounter or an adventure.
I just joined a Runelords campaign, and I I'm running Runelords right now - my campaign is in Spires, while the one I play in is still in Burnt offerings.
I agree that it doesn't have to be cheating, with two requirements:
1. The player doesn't use that knowledge - or, if applicable, back it up with character knowledge. I.e. my character has knowledge history so I can justify some of the knowledge I have about Thassalion.
2. The player has to tell the DM right away, and get his permission to play despite that fact.
I admit of having done this pre-reading for cheating purposes when I was around 13, until I got that it is not fun. Being surprised and amazed is better than "winning" an encounter or an adventure.
I think opinions vary on how important it is to be surprised by a work of fiction. Some people are fanatical "no spoilers!!!" types, and other people like to hear detailed reviews before jumping in. Personally, I'd much rather play a well-crafted adventure based on a story I know then a poorly-crafted adventure with surprises around every corner. YMMV.
I think opinions vary on how important it is to be surprised by a work of fiction. Some people are fanatical "no spoilers!!!" types, and other people like to hear detailed reviews before jumping in. Personally, I'd much rather play a well-crafted adventure based on a story I know then a poorly-crafted adventure with surprises around every corner. YMMV.
Again a case-by-case situation...I tend to be quite lax in spoilers but foreknowledge does change the experience one way or the other. Having a well-constructed surprise twist is pretty unbeatable, and I have seen and experienced good amount of these (sudden appearance of Great Old Ones to atypical gaming environment can cause -SAN also out of character), though sometimes it is also amusing to have foreknowledge and appreciate how the events are unfolding...or possibly taking unexpected directions because the PCs decided to do something completely different. But if I want to experience the latter, I can be the DM.
I prefer well-crafted adventures with surprises, and that's a good reason to not intentionally look for spoilers.
It really depends on your players. The more mature, the less an issue having read the adventure is. I draw upon two instances in my own playing history.
First, I ran a particular ShadowRun module, only to find myself playing in a group that ran the same module. Then I played in another group that used the same module. Finally, I ran in another group using the same module. Here's the funny part - I am a voracious reader, but I tend to forget the details of almost everything I've read. So after the third time playing in a module I had run years earlier, my friend and GM called me out -- "How you you fall for that ambush? I know you've run this before adn played in in twice before and you still walked into the ambush?!?" Yes, every single time I played it, I completely forgot that one particular line of investigation was just a Very Bad Idea, and every single time, I and my fellow players got hosed by an ambush. Definitely not cheating, even though supposedly I should have been very familiar with the adventure (or I am just brain damaged).
Case two involves my palying in a game with a DM who never used prepublished adventures. Yet I had the uncanny knack to read his mind and figure out almost every dramatic plot move right before it happened. It was eerie, adn you should have seen some of the surprised looks on his face when I predicted exactly what we'd face or how the plot would work. It truly was as if I was reading his mind. Thankfully he made up his own adventures, or else I am sure people would have suspected me of reading ahead. Is that cheating? It couldn't be, because I couldn't know what the adventure, but it surely looked like cheating.
My point for these two stories is that a mature (or forgetful) player can truly play in a pre-read adventure without compromising the fun. There may be aaaa few key areas where that player may have to recuse himself from decision-making, but mostly it can be done. It all depends on the individual players.
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If he's been using the knowledge of the adventure to help his character, then yeah, it's cheating. If he's been able to separate player knowledge from character knowledge, it's not.
It's perfectly possible to play a character in an adventure you've read. I've done it countless times. I've even played characters in adventures I've helped write or edit (see the office Age of Worms campaign as an example), and it's still fun. It's best, of course, if the GM knows going in that a player is familiar with the adventure, partially so the GM can adjust things if he sees fit and partially so he can make sure that the player isn't using his knowledge unfairly. And MOSTLY to keep the bond of trust between player and GM.
I liken the playing of an adventure you've read (or written, or edited) to watching a movie you've seen before with people who haven't seen it. The focus of your own entertainment shifts something away from the game (or movie) and over to the people you're experiencing the entertainment with; it's just as fun (but in a different way) to be entertained by the scares in a movie like "Alien" as it is to experience the movie alongside someone who's never seen the movie. Same goes for RPGs.
But if that player's doing something like hiding the fact that he's read ahead, and looking back over the campaign his character has always known the way to go and the things to do and has made character optimization choices that make sense ONLY given what specific challenges lie ahead... yeah. That's cheating.
The player can also minimize the effect his foreknowlege has on the game by removing himself from the decision-making process at certain points. "Which way should we go, left or right?" - Don't ask me, I've already read the adventure, so it would be unfair for me to vote, so I'll go with the majority.
And, as you and other have noted, the DM can minimizes the impact by changing details of the adventure, especially monster, trap and treasure details, except where they may be integral to the story.
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The player can also minimize the effect his foreknowlege has on the game by removing himself from the decision-making process at certain points. "Which way should we go, left or right?" - Don't ask me, I've already read the adventure, so it would be unfair for me to vote, so I'll go with the majority.
And, as you and other have noted, the DM can minimizes the impact by changing details of the adventure, especially monster, trap and treasure details, except where they may be integral to the story.
Alternatively, the character can be allowed to make decisions, by giving the player the option of flipping a coin or rolling a die to see whether or not he should choose to just take the challace or search the pedestal it sits upon.
I prefer well-crafted adventures with surprises, and that's a good reason to not intentionally look for spoilers.
Right. So in your case reading ahead would be cheating yourself. But why should you care if someone else is ruining surprises for himself?
The only reason to frown on this behaviour (IMO) would be if I thought it was ruining the experience for everyone else (e.g. gaining a mysterious sixth sense for secret doors and traps). But I haven't found that to be the case so far.
At present I am running ROTRL- we just finished Burnt Offerings, and it has become known to me that one of my players is reading ahead- and is sending stat blocks of the enemies to the rest of my players. The rest of the group has asked him to stop, which is good- but in the meantime- I am throwing red herrings left and right into Skinsaw Murders to trip him up- I've changed a few things here and there that are key. Ultimately, my goal is to have him walk into a fight prepared for one thing, but be faced with entirely another.
Yes it is cheating, it's selfish behavior. Not only does it cheat the player out of the module's story, surprises, but it cheats the DM out of his enjoyment. I beleieve that's one of the core things that makes D&D so much fun, the unexpected.
The only reason to frown on this behaviour (IMO) would be if I thought it was ruining the experience for everyone else (e.g. gaining a mysterious sixth sense for secret doors and traps). But I haven't found that to be the case so far.
Right, it hasn't been a problem in my games either (well, not since I was 13 or so). Apparently there are people who are trying to "win" the game though, and in some groups it has become a problem...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...one of my players is reading ahead- and is sending stat blocks of the enemies to the rest of my players. The rest of the group has asked him to stop, which is good- but in the meantime- ... my goal is to have him walk into a fight prepared for one thing, but be faced with entirely another.
Sobelia,
Welcome to these boards. It's nice to have you here; Lilith will be coming by eventually and offering cookies.
I wonder, if you asked your player "Why do you think I *didn't* send out NPC stats to all you players before you encounter them?" what his answer would be.
This is free advice and worth what you pay for it: I think you're reacting to this mess on the wrong level. It's the player who's acting like an ass, and you're approaching the issue on the character level. (It's like those old DM's who'd blast PC's with lightning when the player got obnoxious.)
If anything, you're giving the player an excuse for his behavior, since he can now claim that he's not spoiling the actual adventure, because he's not got accurate information.
So, I'd recommend dealing with the player. And I'd strongly recommend simply kicking him out, privately and with dignity.
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As someone who values the story more than specific mechanical issues, I'd rather someone fudge die rolls than read the adventure and use the knowledge taken from it in-game. That said, if a player can adequately separate in-character and out-of-character knowledge and take his PC in a direction he knows might not be best but works for the story, I have no problem with it. Bust not telling you until after he had done it is a bit unethical, not so much because it gives him an advantage, but because it violates the trust between a player and GM.
Dude,
How do you apply these ethical concerns to your own behavior? As far as I know you have not come clean with Tav about having read through STAP before we started playing. You have also used OOC kowledge to make IC decisions. ("Let's not bring the fake cleric on the boat with us! He might be infested!) I became aware of the situation due to your apparently encyclopedic knowledge of Slaadi egg laying habits. Now I feel terrible that I have become an accomplice after the fact. In my view you have violated the trust between not just DM and player, but between player and player. Come clean to Tav! Tonight!! Please!!!TtO
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Lilith will be coming by eventually and offering cookies.
Sets up a Cookie Trap™
This is free advice and worth what you pay for it: I think you're reacting to this mess on the wrong level. It's the player who's acting like an ass, and you're approaching the issue on the character level. (It's like those old DM's who'd blast PC's with lightning when the player got obnoxious.)
I agree with this.
So, I'd recommend dealing with the player. And I'd strongly recommend simply kicking him out, privately and with dignity.
I disagree with this, do not give him any dignity. Kick him out in front of everyone, then, while he's leaving, WEDGIE! :P
My best friend's older brother cheats.
This happened just last night and it stings a lot. If it seems very long its because it is cathartic for me to vent it out. I appreciate your taking the time to read it through.
One of my players, "Sebastian," collects a lot of D&D stuff. I've seen regular issues of Dragon, but only a smattering of Dungeon.
I am running the Savage Tide on Chris West's World of Mystery (Dungeon #150). I scanned the world map and copied and pasted water over the majority of it so that the players could explore and discover the planet. In the first adventure, #138's There Is No Honor, is a map of the city Sasserine. I saw that map in Sebastian's folder (in a transparent holder anyone at the table could see; I wasn't snooping). So I know he has the issue.
Okay, not too big a deal. But the group is on a ship searching it and find a signet ring with a note. Sebastian immediately claims that its the combination to the vault (which it is). Possibly an intuitive deduction. But then Sebastian starts searching the SHIP for carvings. I tell him they've already received the results of their Search checks. But he keeps harping on the carvings, the carvings, like its supposed to remind me of something.
It does. It reminds me of the carvings that are mentioned, twice by that specific word, in the description of the VAULT, not the ship. So, now I know that Sebastian is reading the adventure ahead of time and not telling me.
To compound the problem, Sebastian had the entire unedited world map in his folder. That comes from the last issue in the adventure path series. So I know he has the whole AP.
I have 3 - 5 adventures planned between most of the adventure paths, but all the machinations and intrigue stem from Sasserine. For instance, I retyped the descriptions of the affiliations, churchs, nobles, map keys, etc, for the players because the AP isn't set on the same world and I didn't want them to have to mentally switch names. But I was also able to censor savory bits. Instead of the entry reading, "There's a secret Temple of Moander under the Pearldiver's Guild," the players hand-out reads, "There's a secret Temple of Xxxxxxx under the Xxxxxxx's Guild."
There's dozens of Guilds and not all secret temples are necessarily evil. I used those X's on the Church of the Whirling Fury to make them appear very questionable. I used those X's three or four times for some fun onion-peeling story layering, and now Sebastian knows all the answers.
I, like other DM's, spend a lot of time preparing an adventure. One big pay-off for me as the DM is watching the players figure out the problems. Sebastian has taken that from me. He's taken a lot of the surprise from himself and it also saps the other player's enjoyment.
I want to ask him to leave the group. The only wrinkle: Sebastian is another player's ("Seamus") older brother. Seamus is my best friend. The other players are Seamus's wife and my wife.
I definitely feel cheated.
I've had issues with Sebastian in the past. During the last campaign, where his own brother Seamus was DM, I watched Sebastian roll a 4 and then move the 20-sided to a 17 when he thought no one was looking. I watched him the whole time. I watched him do it. When I called him on it in front of everyone, he flatly denied it. Adamantly. I didn't want it to escalate further, so I just said I must have seen it wrong.
That's just one example. My predicament, as I said at the beginning, is my best friend's older brother cheats. We all know he does. But its his brother; how do I deal with this to get him to stop?
H E L P
First - You're not going to get him to stop cheating. If he lied "adamantly" when confronted on the prior occasion, it's already likely to be a lost cause.
So you're left with four choices.
CHOICE 1: Ignore the behavior. Just keep running the game, don't make waves, and put up with it. This is basically what you've done up until now. The major risk of this choice is your increasing dissatisfaction with the game you are running, and the likelihood of his spoiling some cool moments of the game with his "lucky guesses."
CHOICE 2: Change enough stuff to make his knowledge less useful. For something as complex as the Savage Tide adventure path, this one's a toughie. You can make some simple changes, such as changing the puzzle in the vault (replace the carvings with something entirely different). But some fairly important elements are going to be quite difficult to change. The major risk with this choice, aside from the vastly increased workload it demands of you, is the likelihood that when he is confronted with things you've changed, he will act out in some other way - either continuing to try what he knows is the "right" answer ("no, I'm looking at the Carvings!") or just being generally more confrontational. FULL DISCLOSURE: I had a cheater in my group once who was reading the adventures ahead of time. When I changed things around and he walked alone right into a "safe" room (but I'd rearranged and the big bad monster was in there), he ended up picking a fight with another player in-game, then sabotaging the big diplomacy scene with an important NPC. And this was a guy in his 30s.
CHOICE 3: Kick him out of the group. You may actually want to talk to your friend (his brother) about this first, just the two of you. Let your friend know about his brother's cheating, and that you see it damaging the game. Ask him how he'd feel if you asked his brother to leave the group. See if he has any insight on what might make his brother not sabotage the game if he does stay in the group. Basically, figure out what your friend and you, together, think might work.
CHOICE 4: Confront the Cheater. Let him know that you know he's read at least some of the adventures, and that he has materials he isn't supposed to have. Let him know that it has already caused him to metagame and do things he probably wouldn't do if he'd not have the information. DON'T be accusatory, try to explain it as a problem you want to solve together. See if he thinks he can take more of a back-seat for all the problem-solving and "what-do-we-think-is-going-on-here" activity among the PCs. This may require that he change his character - it's easier to "play dumb" if your character is supposed to be less-intelligent. IF he accepts what you are saying and seems willing to work with you, then you've got a chance of making it work. Set up some sort of signal you can give him if he needs to back off (if he seems to be spoiling the surprise for the others). OR, IF he denies everything and gets confrontational, you're stuck with Choices 1-3. And monitor his behavior, because if he keeps acting on player knowledge, you'll eventually have to consider Choices 1-3 anyway...
It's an interesting question. I will admit that my answer is somewhat influenced by the fact that I never run modules. My players frequently have no clue what is coming because I've got no clue what is coming until I make it up. But here is the question I ask about ANY kind of cheat:
Does it matter?
As long as it isn't rude, overboard or detract from the game does it matter if someone cheats? I expect my players to fudge things a bit now and then. I try to keep track of things well enough to a) know hen they are and b) keep it form getting excessive or obvious.
The whole point of the game is to HAVE FUN. As far as I'm concerned as long as that goal is achieved nothing else matters. Sometimes that little bit of fudging is necessary for that particular player to have fun. There is actually a player or two of mine that I wish would fudge dice a little bit because they have the WORST luck with dice rolls that I've ever seen.
If I was running a module and suspected or out right knew one of the players had read ahead the question I would is is NOT "is it cheating?" I would ask "has he used his knowledge in a way that made the game less fun for the other players?"
If his actions didn't reduce anyone else's fun then it is a moot point as far as I'm concerned. If it did reduce the other players fun then I would work at dealing with the matter. I'd start my insisting that he not do that again. If he kept it up I would impose some punishments or penalities for as long as he did it, eventually leading up to kicking him out if it became necessary. And for the record if it was his own fun that was being reduced by reading it my response would be "hey moron if you stop reading it, it'll be more fun."
I will tell you this about the putting having fun first and basing everything around that. I have 8 players in my game, 2 people who are practically begging to play and half a dozen other players who would be begging to be added if I was running at a different time or location. In the last 8 years I haven't had much trouble keep a group togather. When people have fun what else matters?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Dude, the problem has nothing to do with D&D. You'd have the same problems if you said, "My best friend's brother cheats at poker" or "My best friend's brother cheats at Monopoly."
At least nobody antes real money in D&D.
You could foil his cheating: re-write the campaign so that the written adventures lead to doom. But that's implying that reading ahead secretly was acceptable, and your re-write was compensation. And you say he cheats on die rolls, too. So rewriting things is not even a solution.
At this point, it's unrealistic to expect him not to use his out-of-game knowledge. And it's a safe bet he'd read up on all sorts of major plot points. (Hell, he keeps things he's not supposed to have in a folder he takes to the gaming table. He doesn't care whether you know he's cheating or not.)
Dis-invite him. Period. Explain why, if you like. Expect an argument, but be firm. If his brother goes with him, and his sister-in-law goes with them, then your group collapses, and you and your wife need to find other people to game with.
Or you can sit there and watch him wreck your game.
You could foil his cheating: re-write the campaign so that the written adventures lead to doom. But that's implying that reading ahead secretly was acceptable, and your re-write was compensation. And you say he cheats on die rolls, too. So rewriting things is not even a solution.
That's how I've sometimes handled it in the past. Although I was careful to set up that doom to befall only a single character, so the rest of the party didn't get pulled in collaterally.
I think getting a funny story out of a character death is worth as much, anecdotally, as the sterling legend of a flawless adventuring career, but some people just can't handle their character's death or a great treasure left undiscovered. They don't want to miss anything. They won't sit down to play Final Fantasy without that telephone book sized walkthrough. It's kind of OCD, and I can't say I don't understand the feelinge because not missing out, and being in control is a satisfying illusion while you have it. You can kick a player out for cheating, but I prefer to pull them aside, get into their head and try to talk them into realizing their reasons for cheating. That need for control. That fear of letting go. I've witnessed a few people experience epiphanies and then really seem to change.
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I will tell you this about the putting having fun first and basing everything around that. I have 8 players in my game, 2 people who are practically begging to play and half a dozen other players who would be begging to be added if I was running at a different time or location. In the last 8 years I haven't had much trouble keep a group together. When people have fun what else matters?
If that's the case, then you are fortunate.
But if one of those players were to be caught cheating, then he would be ruining someone else's fun.He'd be preventing a potentially honest player from experiencing the joy of joining an RPG group.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You can kick a player out for cheating, but I prefer to pull them aside, get into their head and try to talk them into realizing their reasons for cheating. That need for control. That fear of letting go. I've witnessed a few people experience epiphanies and then really seem to change.
Jade,
Maybe you should submit an article to KQ on dealing with cheaters. it's something we've all dealt with.
You can kick a player out for cheating, but I prefer to pull them aside, get into their head and try to talk them into realizing their reasons for cheating. That need for control. That fear of letting go. I've witnessed a few people experience epiphanies and then really seem to change.
Jade,
Maybe you should submit an article to KQ on dealing with cheaters. it's something we've all dealt with.
That's a great idea, Matthew. I'll ask Wolfgang if he has any place for an advice piece.
Cintra Bristol
I've been doing CHOICE 1 for a while (so have all of us in the group). Sebastian is a friend and a brother to us and we've all been enabling him by not doing something about it sooner because we are all afraid that confronting him will lead to exile, not just from the gaming table, but from our lives. This is the first time he's read ahead so blatantly.
CHOICE 2: I agree that the simple changes are do-able, but I quake at the prospect of changing the AP enough that his knowledge is non-sequitur information. That would take more time than I can give to the game.
CHOICE 3: Last night, I didn't talk to Sebastian because I felt I would have just booted him, but without talking to his brother first. Now that I've had some time, I think this may still be my best option, but with a heads-up to Seamus first.
CHOICE 4: I really do like the idea, but after the denial I received about the die roll, I doubt I'd get anywhere. Privately, and non-accusatorily might yield better results and at least I can say I tried everything before I do boot him.
Cap'n Jose Monkamuck
That's my point. I'm not having fun. The other players aren't having as much fun knowing Sebastian has pre-read the adventure. I agree with you that if everyone is having fun then it is a moot question. However, his play is affecting 80% of the people involved, so I'd say it is no longer moot.
The four of us, who are the solid core of the group, have talked about Sebastian's habits. But as he's Seamus' brother, I usually leave it to him. There have been other times I've talked to Sebastian and not been backed by the others, so I that's why I've been going with CHOICE 1.
Chris Mortika
"Dis-invite him. Period ... Or you can sit there and watch him wreck your game."
Uh, could you clarify your opinion a bit. It seems a bit fuzzy. I'm just not getting a clear picture of what you're saying. :-P
Seriously, it is what my gut is telling me.
The Jade
"You can kick a player out for cheating, but I prefer to pull them aside, get into their head and try to talk them into realizing their reasons for cheating. That need for control. That fear of letting go. I've witnessed a few people experience epiphanies and then really seem to change."
When the four of us talk, Sebastian's control issues actually come up quite a bit. But I want to ignore my gut for a bit longer and listen to my heart, which is telling me to attempt this method.
Cato Novus
Public shaming? Spray painting?
All I can say is that I "Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them." Riiiiiiigggghhhtt.