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Aren't Necromancy spells 'evil'? If so, wouldn't that give a 'false' reading of evil in an unjustified manner? That could present a very nasty situation where someone casting a Necro spell with no evil intent gets a sword in the gut from a well-intentioned Pally.
I'd constrain it to actual Evil Alignment or at most Evil Item-use. but that's just my suggestion.
But if said necromancer was not evil, they would not detect as such. Only their evil spell would.
So the Paladin could choose what to do. Maybe just give them a warning about using evil magic.
Was there a part of the description I gave that caused this interpretation by you? Because I will definitely fix it if it was.
EDIT: I changed one sentence to be "whether or not...it is evil".
Sorry if I offended anyone. Jeez. I was trying to be helpful. I might regret sending this post, but oh well. I go back to work full time next week, so my ability to read and respond to these things is limited.
This long is a one, so I’m spoilering it for those who don’t care to read it. It’s mainly for the OP.
As far as Splat books go, the complete books are fairly easy ones to come by at any gaming store. And Pathfinder seems to want us to use the other books, why give us more feats, if you don’t want us to use them? Also the whole point is to keep 3.5 around, not just use Pathfinder RPG. That’s their idea, not mine.
(This is for the guy who was against using Feats and only wanting to fix the Class abilities)
I don't see why you can't increase the effectiveness of a class by creating/using better feats for them? The Fighter is nothing but feats. True the Pathfinder version has more, but feats are feats are feats.
(Alright back to the OP)
For the record I was talking about the Paladin in general, not one character sheet, but if you want my opinion on what you should do with your character, here it is. I’m assuming your stats are in the order you showed them, with a Str score of 11.
You are not a front line combatant. Sorry. Get as much heavy armor as you can, maybe a tower shield (with a feat) and Aid Other as often as possible. Mix it up with Full Defense. From time to time attack, but with a +2 or +3 to hit, most likely you will miss. Go after the spellcaster and distract him. Use your character as a speaker for the group. His stats don’t support him being the fighter, not without a lot of magical aid. Hire a Warrior to protect/fight for him. Use Detect Evil and Sense Motive all the time, use Diplomacy and make monsters hate you less. Use the Heal Skill to treat deadly wounds and add your Wis score to the healing.
Sorry to say this, but if he feels like a sucky fighter, it's because you made him one. A Fighter with the same stats would work just as badly. Focus on where you made him effective.
As far as the first three levels being low powered, that's the case for most classes. But that doesn’t mean the Paladin is on par with the Warrior, nor does it mean that most of his abilities are useless. Let’s compare the Fighter and the Paladin. We could compare him to other classes, but if the problem is that he’s not a good enough fighter, this one seems the right class.
Hit Points the same, Skill Points the same, Saves the same, Weapons and Armor the same. So really the differences between the two classes are Class Skills and Class Abilities.
Skills: Paladins get social and healing based skills and Fighters get some more physical skills and intimidation skills. Outside of that they are fairly similar.
Class Abilities:
1st level: Smite Evil, Detect Evil versus one Bonus Feat. Smite Evil is more powerful than any Feat out there (at least those available at first level). Increase to both hit and damage, and it increases as you go up in level. At first level it could be as high as +5/+1 to an attack. I think it’s worthy of once per day status, but if you must simply increase the number of times per day to 3 (That’s the same as taking Extra Smiting, but at 1st level instead of 4th). With even a decent Strength score of say 14, Weapon Focus and a MW weapon, that’s a 50% chance of an AC of 19, pretty good for 1st level. And Detect Evil is the bane to many DM’s all over the world. Some say it’s broken and too powerful. Not combat effective, but not everything’s combat.
2nd level: Divine Grace and Lay on Hands versus a Bonus Feat and Bravery. Lay on Hands is more powerful than any feat you could get for what it does. Is it going to increase your damage and make you a better combatant, no; but there are no feats (that I know of, please correct me if I’m wrong) that allow you to heal others, multiple times a day at that. If that’s what you want to do, then it’s better than the Fighter. Divine Grace is simply better than Bravery (though Bravery is a great addition) Bravery effects fear only and maxes out at +5 at level 18, Divine Grace can start at +5 with the right stats. It’s one of the most powerful abilities in the game.
3rd level: Aura of Courage and Divine Health versus Armor Training. Both are defensive in nature and to me about the same. A +1 AC is great, no question and it gets more powerful latter, even better; but for now it’s just a +1. But immunity to both Fear and Disease is also awesome. And if you haven’t had a DM pull out the disease problems such as wererat bites or even simple Filth Fever, you’re lucky. At low levels disease sucks.
So in my mind the Paladin is on par with the Fighter, better in some ways. The only problem with the Paladin in 3.5 was the need to put high scores in Charisma, Wisdom, and Strength to be effective, and that after 8th level you felt like there was no reason to stick with the class. Pathfinder fixed those problems. Does every class need a complete over haul or some flashy new mechanic just to keep our interest?
At any rate, I felt the need to react to the negativity created by my last post. It’s out of my system now. Sorry. Hopefully this one won’t have the same effect, but I’m fairly certain it will.
Really?
I just DON't think the beta paladin sucks. It's a great class. Some of the smite evil and similar fixes are just too much.
The paladin isn't a "striker", a damage-dealer, but it's mainly a defender of the party, a tanker...who incidentally is very effective against evil foes.
The only issue I've noticed is lay of hands... It heals too few hit points... unless you gain the Heal power...too late. I suggest the paladin could use more than one daily use in one time.
ex. 3 uses of the ability = 3xlevel hit points.
Would you like another boon about dtect evil? (which by the way I hate in roleplaying encounters, because every NPC that see the pally detecting his alignment should at least feel BAD about the pally's politeness)
Make it a swift action, which possibly requires no concentration and visible components. And it's all.
with the battle blessing feat (complete champion) the pally could also cast its spells as a swift action!! Once again, the pally it's not a technical fighter nor he's a huge damage dealer.
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wrote some Paladin awesomeness
Mmmm. Tasty! I'm going to noggin-chew that a little, but I'm pretty much liking it as is.
As an aside, when I say I don't play like y'all, that means only the following:
I buy what I call the core books, and that's usually it. No "Complete Fighter" or any of that, so as was mentioned earlier I wouldn't know about all the power-advantage feats that beef Smite are. Also, I, and my players, don't do the "one level of this, two levels of that, then one level of this, and 4 levels of that" style of multiclassing. While it may be legal, I don't think any of us have ever gotten into the game competitively enough to get into that sort of min-maxing. I was absolutely stunned by that concept. I don't think I've played anything aside from a pure core-class in over 15 years, with the closest I've gotten being playing a hybrid character.
Just different playstyles - nothing negative intended.
To be completely honest I think the best possible fix for smite evil is that it is constantly active, but slightly changed. Still add your Char bonus to hit evil, and half your level to damage against evil. Look at the new fighters, they are gaining a constant + to hit and damage which maxes at 4 but it works against everything, not just evil. Evil things should fear paladins, it is as simple as that.
As for Detect evil I agree with the swift action part.
And LOH should be usable = to your charisma mod.
Those changes there would actually make the paladin what it should be, a Holy Warrior.
As someone who loves to play paladins and loves the fluff behind them, this thread is of particular importance to me. The more I think about it, the more I think that these three changes here would completely fix the paladin.
It would allow the paladin to shine where he should (fighting evil) and be someone that the group can rally behind.
When compared to the fighter the paladin should be much better at fighting what he is supposed to (evil again) and the fighter should be much better at fighting in general. Thus for those occasions where the group is fighting something that is not evil the paladin will be no where near as effective in the damage area, but still helpful in the all around.
I quoted myself here because I really wanted to see what everyone else thought. I am not a DM, but if I were to DM I would institute these changes from level 1 if any of my players wanted to be a paladin. The restrictions that are put on him by his code more than balance out the bonuses that he gains.
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I have to agree that the paladin as is underperforms in the fighting department, Constant Smite evil would seem to be a solution though some of the previous methodolgies seem a little on the high side, instead give a bonus to atttack and damage versus evil equal to the number of times per day it could be used under the current rules so smite evil 1/day becomes Smite Evil 1 giving plus 1 attack and damage by level 20 this is a plus 7 attack and damage not quite as much as a fully speced ranger but less restricted.
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Sorry if I offended anyone. Jeez. I was trying to be helpful. I might regret sending this post, but oh well. I go back to work full time next week, so my ability to read and respond to these things is limited.
This long is a one, so I’m spoilering it for those who don’t care to read it. It’s mainly for the OP.
As far as Splat books go, the complete books are fairly easy ones to come by at any gaming store. And Pathfinder seems to want us to use the other books, why give us more feats, if you don’t want us to use them? Also the whole point is to keep 3.5 around, not just use Pathfinder RPG. That’s their idea, not mine.
(This is for the guy who was against using Feats and only wanting to fix the Class abilities)
I don't see why you can't increase the effectiveness of a class by creating/using better feats for them? The Fighter is nothing but feats. True the Pathfinder version has more, but feats are feats are feats.
(Alright back to the OP)
For the record I was talking about the Paladin in general, not one character sheet, but if you want my opinion on what you should do with your character, here it is. I’m assuming your stats are in the order you showed them, with a Str score of 11.
You are not a front line combatant. Sorry. Get as much heavy armor as you can, maybe a tower shield (with a feat) and Aid Other as often as possible. Mix it up with Full Defense. From time to time attack, but with a +2 or +3 to hit, most likely you will miss. Go after the spellcaster and distract him. Use your character as a speaker for the group. His stats don’t support him being the fighter, not without a lot of magical aid. Hire a Warrior to protect/fight for him. Use Detect Evil and Sense Motive all the time, use Diplomacy and make monsters hate you less. Use the Heal Skill to treat deadly wounds and add your Wis score to the healing.
Sorry to say this, but if he feels like a sucky fighter, it's because you made him one. A Fighter with the same stats would work just as...
A) I wasn't offended I was merely responding to your post. If I came across offended it wasn't my intent.
B) I wasn't complaining about my ability in combat, so please don't take this as me complaining about a paladins combat ability. The issue as I see it is that, lets say I had completely combat oriented abilities. a 15 10 13 10 14 17, that would be great. It still wouldn't change the fact that if you gave an NPC warrior the exact same stats and gear then the combat would have gone the same way simply due to economy of action. Is my point coming across? I understand that after combat I'll be able to heal 8 hp total. that's okay at best, I'm no cleric but I can heal up one hit, my character has 30 hp though so I can't even heal 1/3 of my hp without the heal skill. I don't even want more healing than that, but I want at least to be able to use a standard action to get that 8 hp all at once if I need it for myself or an ally in combat. Detect evil I don't want it more powerful I want it not to waste an entire round so that I can actually use it. and smite is a one per day thing fine if I got an extra one every level. could you imagine a spellcaster only having 7 spells per day by level 20? so why is that okay for a paladin.
And I am not one to get rid of feats from splatbooks, but feat should not be the solution. if you need a feat for your class to function then it should be a class feature.
I don't think anyone here wants paladins to become overpowered, but I think you'll find that in general most people think that low level paladins are kinda a suckfest, and I'm not talking in the general sense that all low level classes are a suckfest, I'm saying that compared to other classes at lower levels the paladin is the only one that doesn't stack up.
P.S. I pretty much did exactly what you suggested for my character but hey if I was an NPC warrior I could have done it too.
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And LOH should be usable = to your charisma mod.
can you explain this more, I'm not sure if you are saying heal a # of hp= to your cha mod, or heal a # of times per day = to your cha mod, cause either way that kind of static number is actually a nerf. My pally would heal 3 hp per use for the one (3 hp at 8th level?), or actually have one fewer per day for the other. So can you clarify?
And the swift action for detect is something I agree with and had thought I had already suggested.
EDIT: on a completely unrelated note my pally has law devotion as a first level feat which is actually more useful in combat than any of his class features so far. and we play monday for real so I can report on the roleplay usefulness of the class once we get the real game started. Question, the detect evil is a spell like ability, does it have a verbal or somatic component if its spell like, I kinda had this idea that when he met people he just focused on them while he shook their hand and took their measure. and could just tell if someone was a good person. that won't work if he has to finger waggle or speak some casting word.
According to Pathfinder, Spell Like Abilities work just like normal spells except they have no Verbal, Somatic, Material, or Focus. So it's more like psionics.
I don't know if that's how it works in 3.5 or not, but that's the way my group always thought it was supposed to work.
Have fun playing and certainly tell us how it goes.
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Question, the detect evil is a spell like ability, does it have a verbal or somatic component if its spell like, I kinda had this idea that when he met people he just focused on them while he shook their hand and took their measure. and could just tell if someone was a good person. that won't work if he has to finger waggle or speak some casting word.
Pretty much the differences between Spells and Spell-Like Abilities is that the latter does not require material components, and is not "memorized" - they are simply replenished each day.
, they can still be disrupted during casting (unless done defensively via Concentration 0r Spellcraft depending on which you use).
Robert
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I'm really puzzled by suggestions that giving the Paladin a little more oomph in those abilities in any way is unjustifiable, especially in comparison to other classes.
And, please, just to humour those of us who like clear data, would suggestions for how new write-ups of DE, SE, and LoH please be put into formulae rather than lost in text? Please?
* DE: (X + Cha) Y # of times/day
* SE: (X + Cha) bonus to Y/Z, A # times/day
* LoH: (X + Cha) Y # of times/dayThanks. :)
In response to this post and your previous one - I am against the idea of adding another ability score into the equation - the paladin already suffers from needing too many good stats as it is.
That being said - to address your questions of how I would suggest making them better:
Detect Evil: I don't care if it's a swift or standard personally. It still takes two rounds to pinpoint an evil target. I have a problem with the Detect Evil spell/ability in general - but for a different thread area about spells. For one - all those detect spells - including magic needs to be line-of-sight; not penetratable through barriers - especially as 1st level spells and at will abilities
Lay On Hands: I suppose the total amount of healing in a day is acceptable - if there was instead an option to heal as much of that total in one dump as one likes. In other words: given the current math, an amount equal to paladin level a number of times equal to the Charisma mod. IMO, I would like to see that as a TOTAL amount in the day - so a 3rd Paladin w/ 16 CHA would heal 9 hit points a day - which he can break up as he wishes.
As an alternative - my preference would be to make the lay on hands simply work as a Cure spell; Cure Light Wounds a number of times equal to 1 + Cha Mod in a day. At a specific level, that Cure Lights change to Cure Mods. (Lets say 6th.) Then at 10th, it changes to Cure Serious. At least it then keeps a standard mechanic that is understood and is backwards compatible; its an easy thing to just say that they get X number of Cure Y wounds per day and be done.
Smite Evil: the two best suggestions I have seen so far - is for Smite Evil to be a number of times per day equal to 1 + Cha mod per day, with it advancing as per the class write-up is not. Furthermore, it should be wasted if you miss - it should remain active until you actually hit (the first time after you hit).
Idea number two which I like is that Smite Evil is available a number of times per day - as it is described in Beta - but that once activating it - it remains in effect for a number of rounds equal to say 3+CHA mod. This is how Rage used to work. Even if the amount of damage was limited a tad - because I could see a 15th level paladin doing 15 extra points a damage with every attack as being quite a bit; its still the idea of having that Cha Mod bonus to all attacks just to hit is a big help - and say the same bonus to damage. It still makes it significantly more beneficial - than a use once - and hope you hit - and lose it and do nothing if you don't.
The way I see it - rogues can sneak attack virtually every attack, barbarians can rage a lot, rangers get all sorts of special benefits with their fighting style, monks can stun fist a number of times equal to their level and EVEN earn more when multi-classing!!!
There's simply no reason why the paladin's only true offensive power should not be significantly more plentiful and useful; especially since it is circumstantial - true that 75% of encounters probably are evil - but it's still circumstantial.
Robert
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Smite Evil: the two best suggestions I have seen so far - is for Smite Evil to be a number of times per day equal to 1 + Cha mod per day, with it advancing as per the class write-up is not. Furthermore, it should be wasted if you miss - it should remain active until you actually hit (the first time after you hit).
Did you mean that or mean to say that it shouldn't?
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Smite Evil: the two best suggestions I have seen so far - is for Smite Evil to be a number of times per day equal to 1 + Cha mod per day, with it advancing as per the class write-up is not. Furthermore, it should be wasted if you miss - it should remain active until you actually hit (the first time after you hit).Did you mean that or mean to say that it shouldn't?
Exactly! listen to what I mean - not what I say ;-)
Sorry for the confusion! Hopefully that one misstype doesn't lose the overall intent of my presentation to most folk.
Robert
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wrote some Paladin awesomenessMmmm. Tasty! I'm going to noggin-chew that a little, but I'm pretty much liking it as is.
Thanks for the compliments.
WARNING: SHAMELESS SELF-PROMOTION:
I have yet to playtest the ability as written, but check out my Ruins of Castle Greyhawk Playtest thread for updates and future playtests (might be about a week before I playtest again though).
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I have never seen a paladin played in 3.x or pathfinder yet. But th emore I think about it (and I have been thinking about paaldins a lot lately since I have been wanting to play one for our new game coming up), th emore I think th epowers and such are just not quite right for what I consider the purpose of a Paladin.
I consider the purpose of the paladin to be a holy warrior against evil. A warrior chosen by a god to be a champion of the faith against evil.
As such I see several needed abilities:
* Must be able to wade into combat against Evil in all forms.
* Turning should be available right away. Lvl 1 Turn Undead. Lvl 5 Turn Fiends. Lvl 10 turn Evil Elementals. Lvl 15 Turn Evil (anything evil).
* Smite should be a passive ability always on. Should be usable a number of times per day equal to Paladin levels + Charisma Modifier. It should do extra damage equal to 1/2 Paladin Levels + Charisma Modifier.
* Lay on Hands should be available a number of times equal to Paladin levels + Charisma Modifier. It should heal damage equal to 1/2 Paladin Levels + Charisma Modifier.
* I would remove general spells altogether for the Paladin, but give them access to to domains and their powers. They get to use the domain spells a number of times per day per level equal to their Charisma Modifier. For example an 8th lvl Paladin with Charisma modifer +4 with domains in Healing and War can cast Cure Critical Wounds and Divine Power in any combination up to 4x per day.
Anyway, I do not expect Paizo to use these ideas at all. Just what I would do for a paladin.
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I have never seen a paladin played in 3.x or pathfinder yet. But th emore I think about it (and I have been thinking about paaldins a lot lately since I have been wanting to play one for our new game coming up), th emore I think th epowers and such are just not quite right for what I consider the purpose of a Paladin.
I consider the purpose of the paladin to be a holy warrior against evil. A warrior chosen by a god to be a champion of the faith against evil.
As such I see several needed abilities:
* Must be able to wade into combat against Evil in all forms.
* Turning should be available right away. Lvl 1 Turn Undead. Lvl 5 Turn Fiends. Lvl 10 turn Evil Elementals. Lvl 15 Turn Evil (anything evil).
* Smite should be a passive ability always on. Should be usable a number of times per day equal to Paladin levels + Charisma Modifier. It should do extra damage equal to 1/2 Paladin Levels + Charisma Modifier.
* Lay on Hands should be available a number of times equal to Paladin levels + Charisma Modifier. It should heal damage equal to 1/2 Paladin Levels + Charisma Modifier.
* I would remove general spells altogether for the Paladin, but give them access to to domains and their powers. They get to use the domain spells a number of times per day per level equal to their Charisma Modifier. For example an 8th lvl Paladin with Charisma modifer +4 with domains in Healing and War can cast Cure Critical Wounds and Divine Power in any combination up to 4x per day.Anyway, I do not expect Paizo to use these ideas at all. Just what I would do for a paladin.
While I agree with your dismay at their lack of filling their propsed roll, I don't agree that your answers are a fair assessment for corrections -- they seem to outshine even the cleric.
That being said - changes are needed IMO to make it on par with the other classes to be effective.
Do not forget that one of the major boons of the paladin (already in place) that makes them a staunch oppoenent in the erradication of evil is their ever-growing list of immunities and good saving throw bonuses.
One thing I would grant them (and I do this in my own games) is Mettle ability. If a hexblade can have it....
Regardless, Krome - they are definitely not a force (offensively) to be reckoned with.
Robert
I have to agree that the paladin as is underperforms in the fighting department, Constant Smite evil would seem to be a solution though some of the previous methodolgies seem a little on the high side, instead give a bonus to atttack and damage versus evil equal to the number of times per day it could be used under the current rules so smite evil 1/day becomes Smite Evil 1 giving plus 1 attack and damage by level 20 this is a plus 7 attack and damage not quite as much as a fully speced ranger but less restricted.
Thank you for agreeing with me, though I see no reason not to keep it simple and just keep it at +Char to hit and 1/2 paladin lvl to damage.
And LOH should be usable = to your charisma mod.can you explain this more, I'm not sure if you are saying heal a # of hp= to your cha mod, or heal a # of times per day = to your cha mod, cause either way that kind of static number is actually a nerf. My pally would heal 3 hp per use for the one (3 hp at 8th level?), or actually have one fewer per day for the other. So can you clarify?
And the swift action for detect is something I agree with and had thought I had already suggested.
I was reffering to what someone else said about the LoH, you should be able to use a number of "uses" of your LoH at a time = to your Char mod. So just the way it is now but if you have a +3 to Char at lvl 5 you could use 3 pts at once to heal 15 pts in a burst.
And as with DE being a swift action I was agreeing to what you originally said.
Sorry for not quoting in the beginning.
My main point though was for SE, it should always be active the way I mentioned above.
* SE: +15 damage v. Evil at 15th Level seems almost ...insulting.
The Paladin is of necessity bound by not only the LG Alignment, but a Code above and beyond others of the Alignment, and directly answerable to their deity. Surely we can offer them more damage for all their effort & constraints.
YES YES AND YES!! This i what I have been trying to say, VERY well put Kyrinn! Paladins put MANY MANY restraints on their ability to RP (basically it is harder because you have to follow the code) This should be balanced by gaining combat prowess against evil!
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** Thanks.**
But...those values still seem very, -sorry to say-, chincy by my estimation.
* LoH: is very minor. Would it seem more reasonable to increase the amount of healing if it were primarily used on others?
-- What if the Paladin were to receive (Lvl + Cha) to self-healing-only, useable throughout a 'day' as they deemed fit (automatically Stabilise herself if not killed outright), in addition to an amount which was only-useable on others?
I see them as being the cutting-edge of Goodness in the front-lines of the battle against Evil. To do this, they need to be properly 'supplied' in this fight, and clearly that support needs to come from their deity (yes, I realise some Pallies are non-deity-based, bear with me, please) and not assume that a Cleric is going to be around to do The Good.
* SE: +15 damage v. Evil at 15th Level seems almost ...insulting.
The Paladin is of necessity bound by not only the LG Alignment, but a Code above and beyond others of the Alignment, and directly answerable to their deity. Surely we can offer them more damage for all their effort & constraints.Thanks again. :)
Some of your suggestions seem a bit complicated (in the math). Not that they're bad suggestions.
As for +15 damage - it doesn't seem that much - but considering you're getting three attacks a round, and can power attack etc to increase it even more - it does add up fast.
For my money, I say allow SE to be more uses - but not necessarily as much oomph per use - after all - its' the need to be able to hit those fiends and evil clerics with the suped-up ACs that the Paladin needs the bonuses to hit - since they lack the feats, weapon training, and greater weapon focus so popular and prevalently found in the fighters' repertoire.
In other words - I'm more worried in the paladin's ability to actually HIT his opponents - the additional damage that can be done is irrelevant if you only get 2 or 3 attempts per day to smite and bump up your ability to hit them. Having SE last for a "duration" including that bonus to hit - can assist in that - compared to the rage abilities, the feats of the fighter, the bonus fighting style bonuses of the ranger, the self-buffing spells of the cleric....
EDIT: not to mention the paladin's need for multiple good scores - his strength will usually not be as lucrative as the barbarian or the fighter, hurting his chances to hit those high-AC evil fiends/clerics, BBEG, etc. The bonus from the SE to attack rolls is needed badly.
Robert
** Thanks.**
But...those values still seem very, -sorry to say-, chincy by my estimation.
* LoH: is very minor. Would it seem more reasonable to increase the amount of healing if it were primarily used on others?
-- What if the Paladin were to receive (Lvl + Cha) to self-healing-only, useable throughout a 'day' as they deemed fit (automatically Stabilise herself if not killed outright), in addition to an amount which was only-useable on others?
I see them as being the cutting-edge of Goodness in the front-lines of the battle against Evil. To do this, they need to be properly 'supplied' in this fight, and clearly that support needs to come from their deity (yes, I realise some Pallies are non-deity-based, bear with me, please) and not assume that a Cleric is going to be around to do The Good.
* SE: +15 damage v. Evil at 15th Level seems almost ...insulting.
The Paladin is of necessity bound by not only the LG Alignment, but a Code above and beyond others of the Alignment, and directly answerable to their deity. Surely we can offer them more damage for all their effort & constraints.Thanks again. :)
Some of your suggestions seem a bit complicated (in the math). Not that they're bad suggestions.
As for +15 damage - it doesn't seem that much - but considering you're getting three attacks a round, and can power attack etc to increase it even more - it does add up fast.
For my money, I say allow SE to be more uses - but not necessarily as much oomph per use - after all - its' the need to be able to hit those fiends and evil clerics with the suped-up ACs that the Paladin needs the bonuses to hit - since they lack the feats, weapon training, and greater weapon focus so popular and prevalently found in the fighters' repertoire.
In other words - I'm more worried in the paladin's ability to actually HIT his opponents - the additional damage that can be done is irrelevant if you only get 2 or 3 attempts per day to smite and bump up your ability to hit...
Why add the complexity of that? Why not just make it a constant effect that only works against Evil?? I understand that many things you will face are evil, but as you have already said there are so many bonuses that are NOT available to the paladin. This would even the playing field. Just ONLY when facing evil, against all other types of enemies the paladin would become much less effective and the other classes would still shine.
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For my money, I say allow SE to be more uses - but not necessarily as much oomph per use - after all - its' the need to be able to hit those fiends and evil clerics with the suped-up ACs that the Paladin needs the bonuses to hit - since they lack the feats, weapon training, and greater weapon focus so popular and prevalently found in the fighters' repertoire.
In other words - I'm more worried in the paladin's ability to actually HIT his opponents - the additional damage that can be done is irrelevant if you only get 2 or 3 attempts per day to smite and bump up your ability to hit...
OK, we're in agreement on that aspect. If there are 'charges' on the ability, I'm 'willing' (how generous, I know...lol) to reduce the punch to increase the to hit, though increasing the charges seems to be necessary then.
I think this is all coming together perhaps one or two more iterations of perspiration/inspiration will have this licked. :P
"Don't worry, Paladin! We're coming to save you!"
Alright, cool. If I were redesigning it, I would do the following, then.
Smite Evil: As a free action, the paladin can focus his innate good aura to unleash divine energy into his attacks for a short period. He can channel such energy a number of times a day at 1st level equal to 1 plus his Charisma Modifier, and gains one additional use at every 4 paladin class levels. When channelling this divine energy, the palaidn selects one foe and marks him as his target. From that point forward, his melee attacks made against that target gains a divine bonus to their attack rolls equal to their Charisma modifier, and a bonus to damage equal to one/half their paladin level. Each such channeling lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 plus their Charisma modifier. If the creature the paladin marks as his target is not evil, he wastes that use for the day. A paladin can have multiple targets selected, but can only mark one target per round, and each one uses one of his daily uses; which remains in effect on any given creature until the duration expires or the evil creature is destroyed.
[this allows a moderate charisma paladin at 4th level to have 5 smites a day, each one lasting for 4 rounds, doing a +3 to attack rolls and a +2 to damage. The same paladin at 12th, now with a 20 Cha thanks to a magical cloak and a couple of stat boosts at 8th and 12th, can Smite evil 9 targets for 5 rounds each gaining a +5 to attacks and +6 to damage.]
Also add -
New feat:
EXTRA SMITE:
Prereq: Ability to Smite Good/chaos/law/evil
You gain 2 more daily uses of Smite ability
Special: this should also be available to creatures such as Fiendish, Celestial, and half-fiends and half-celestial creatures that have such Smite abilities 1/day etc.
Robert
Smite Evil: As a free action, the paladin can focus his innate good aura to unleash divine energy into his attacks for a short period. He can channel such energy a number of times a day at 1st level equal to 1 plus his Charisma Modifier, and gains one additional use at every 4 paladin class levels. When channelling this divine energy, the palaidn selects one foe and marks him as his target. From that point forward, his melee attacks made against that target gains a divine bonus to their attack rolls equal to their Charisma modifier, and a bonus to damage equal to one/half their paladin level. Each such channeling lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 plus their Charisma modifier. If the creature the paladin marks as his target is not evil, he wastes that use for the day. A paladin can have multiple targets selected, but can only mark one target per round, and each one uses one...
I say this is overly complicated and is to much like the barbarian.
If you think that a constantly active Smite ability (+Char to hit and 1/2 paladin level to damage) is to tough then I present this idea....
Smite Evil: A paladins attacks are concentrated good. When they strike an opponent that is evil they gain their charisma mod as a bonus to hit and half of there paladin level as a bonus to damage. This effect only takes place after an evil enemy has failed a willpower save against the paladin's aura of good (Dif; 10+paladin lvl + Char mod). Once an evil being has failed this save he is vulnerable to a paladins smite evil for 24 hours.
I really like that...lets evil beings have their ability to resist the shinning aura of good that surrounds paladins. But as their willpower will eventually fail in the face of that beacon of justice they become vulnerable to the righteous wrath the paladin brings.
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Smite Evil: A paladins attacks are concentrated good. When they strike an opponent that is evil they gain their charisma mod as a bonus to hit and half of there paladin level as a bonus to damage. This effect only takes place after an evil enemy has failed a willpower save against the paladin's aura of good (Dif; 10+paladin lvl + Char mod). Once an evil being has failed this save he is vulnerable to a paladins smite evil for 24 hours.
I really like that...lets evil beings have their ability to resist the shinning aura of good that surrounds paladins. But as their willpower will eventually fail in the face of that beacon of justice they become vulnerable to the righteous wrath the paladin brings.
I'm not as thrilled with that idea - but meh, to each his own.
Robert
Smite Evil: A paladins attacks are concentrated good. When they strike an opponent that is evil they gain their charisma mod as a bonus to hit and half of there paladin level as a bonus to damage. This effect only takes place after an evil enemy has failed a willpower save against the paladin's aura of good (Dif; 10+paladin lvl + Char mod). Once an evil being has failed this save he is vulnerable to a paladins smite evil for 24 hours.
I really like that...lets evil beings have their ability to resist the shinning aura of good that surrounds paladins. But as their willpower will eventually fail in the face of that beacon of justice they become vulnerable to the righteous wrath the paladin brings.
I'm not as thrilled with that idea - but meh, to each his own.
Robert
It feels more "paladin" to me and less Barbarian.
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It feels more "paladin" to me and less Barbarian.Smite Evil: A paladins attacks are concentrated good. When they strike an opponent that is evil they gain their charisma mod as a bonus to hit and half of there paladin level as a bonus to damage. This effect only takes place after an evil enemy has failed a willpower save against the paladin's aura of good (Dif; 10+paladin lvl + Char mod). Once an evil being has failed this save he is vulnerable to a paladins smite evil for 24 hours.
I really like that...lets evil beings have their ability to resist the shinning aura of good that surrounds paladins. But as their willpower will eventually fail in the face of that beacon of justice they become vulnerable to the righteous wrath the paladin brings.
I'm not as thrilled with that idea - but meh, to each his own.
Robert
Again; to each his own, I won't begrudge you for feeling that way.
Personally, the idea of the paladin selecting an evil foe and devoting himself to destroying that one evil target and chanelling divine energy to smite him down sounds very holy knigh-ish to me: a sworn oath to defeat a specific evil being.
"You are not of our world, fiend. Your kind stands for nothing but destruction and mayhem. I will smite you down where you stand with my curved blade. I shall not rest until I see you banished back to the pits you crawled from. Command your minions to swarm me, I care not - I come for you! For Sarenrae!!"
It's in the details.
Robert
Considering the viability of the Paladin's Smite Evil, part of me wants to say that it should just be an always on ability, perhaps with a half-level bonus to damage, as was suggested...
But, I've got another idea that I figure I'd throw out - why not borrow the Dragon's Breath Weapon recharge mechanic? A paladin can Smite Evil once every 1d4 rounds.
This allows a frequent use of the ability without it being 100% reliable, and it opens the door for Smite related feats, much like Metabreath feats from the Draconomicon. Say, a "Maximize Smite" feat that adds three rounds to the recharge time but allows you to do maximum damage? The idea intrigues me, especially since it means Paladins have the option of focusing their build on Smiting, as well as some of their other options. I kinda like it, though I'm curious how it'd actually play out...
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Considering the viability of the Paladin's Smite Evil, part of me wants to say that it should just be an always on ability, perhaps with a half-level bonus to damage, as was suggested...
But, I've got another idea that I figure I'd throw out - why not borrow the Dragon's Breath Weapon recharge mechanic? A paladin can Smite Evil once every 1d4 rounds.
This allows a frequent use of the ability without it being 100% reliable, and it opens the door for Smite related feats, much like Metabreath feats from the Draconomicon. Say, a "Maximize Smite" feat that adds three rounds to the recharge time but allows you to do maximum damage? The idea intrigues me, especially since it means Paladins have the option of focusing their build on Smiting, as well as some of their other options. I kinda like it, though I'm curious how it'd actually play out...
It's an interesting idea, and there have been a lot of interesting ideas. And compared to the extended duration fixes it works with splat book feats.
The problem to me with extended duration effects for smiting is that they throw the balance of any feat that messes with smites out of whack and therefor kills backwards compatability. Say the tactical feat from complete champion. If smite is extended duration that means I get a free trip attempt every round for the duration or one of two other effects. That's why I think we need to keep the mechanic basically the same and merely tamper with the # of smites a paladin gets, the attack bonus, and the damage bonus. Anything else kinda breaks the backwards comp of splat book feats built around the old version of smite. and after all we want to be able to use all those nifty things out of our 3.5 collection right?
Even though I'm sticking with the beta version for our upcoming playtest, this conversation has gotten me excited to play monday, I can't wait to give you a full on playtest report with combat and roleplay. I'll continue to report on this thread.
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The problem to me with extended duration effects for smiting is that they throw the balance of any feat that messes with smites out of whack and therefor kills backwards compatability. Say the tactical feat from complete champion. If smite is extended duration that means I get a free trip attempt every round for the duration or one of two other effects. That's why I think we need to keep the mechanic basically the same and merely tamper with the # of smites a paladin gets, the attack bonus, and the damage bonus. Anything else kinda breaks the backwards comp of splat book feats built around the old version of smite. and after all we want to be able to use all those nifty things out of our 3.5 collection right?
Agreed! To be honest, I wouldn't change frequency, for that same reason. However, the bonus to hit, and damage is open season, and frankly, I think damage should be severely upped.
I'm running it with a house rule of double damage right now, and it doesn't feel broken at all (in our last session, the paladin used 2 smite evil attempts against a Leukodaemon, and as a 5th level character with a +1 greatsword, he handed out 27 points with a smite, and then another 24 points with a smite ability that he gained using an action point -- it worked fine, and felt satisfactory, far more than +2 to hit, and +5 damage).
Well on top of the changes I have suggested to Smite Evil (always active, +Char to hit, +1/2 paladin lvl to damage...possibly an aura that gives a will save to avoid the smite) and the changes others have suggested to Detect Evil (swift action) and Lay on Hands (use a number of uses at once = to your charisma mod)
I have a couple others I would like to add.
I think Paladins should have the good Will save progression. To face the sort of evil and malice they will be seeing they should have an unshakable will, This should be reflected in their progression.
Also I think they should have a little manipulation in their spells..let me see if I can make this make sense.
Clerics can drop spells for heals, Druids can drop spells to shape shift (I think). So I was giving this some thought.
How about, when a paladin prepares his spells in the morning instead of preparing a number of spells for the day he can select 1 spell per spell level that he knows (1 lvl 1 spell, 1 lvl 2 spell, 1 lvl 3 spell and 1 lvl 4 spell, of course these have to be levels that he could cast) to prepare as active all day long. For example the paladin, instead of preparing multiple lvl 1 spells would simply select one of his level one spells in the morning that would be active all day. Then once the paladin can cast lvl 2 spell he could still select 1 lvl 1 spell and 1 lvl 2 spell, in place of preparing his number of different spells all day long.
I know that was choppy, im still working on the wording.
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That's just too complicated. They moved his spellcasting to charisma now, Charisma is the spontaneous caster stat as evidenced by the favored soul and sorcerer. Granted WotC later threw everything out of wonk by deciding every spellcasting class should cast spontaneously, but if we are sticking to its roots then the Pally should just be a spontaneous caster. This would synergize really well with the feat in complete champion that shortened casting time for pallys since he could then use that feat in combo with metamagic and cast spontaneous metamagic spells as a standard action. That screams holy warrior favored of god to me.
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The problem to me with extended duration effects for smiting is that they throw the balance of any feat that messes with smites out of whack and therefor kills backwards compatability. Say the tactical feat from complete champion. If smite is extended duration that means I get a free trip attempt every round for the duration or one of two other effects. That's why I think we need to keep the mechanic basically the same and merely tamper with the # of smites a paladin gets, the attack bonus, and the damage bonus. Anything else kinda breaks the backwards comp of splat book feats built around the old version of smite. and after all we want to be able to use all those nifty things out of our 3.5 collection right?Agreed! To be honest, I wouldn't change frequency, for that same reason. However, the bonus to hit, and damage is open season, and frankly, I think damage should be severely upped.
To be accurate - he didn't say change not to change the frequency - he said not to extend the duration for a extended period of time.
Changing the frequency (or amount per day if you will) of the smite evils is exactly what MOST have been arguing for.
I'm all for that, or for an extended duration.
Personally, since I don't use the splat books - and never even looked at the complete champion - i have no knowledge nor do I use those feats - so it wouldn't affect my gaming experience from that regards - but I do understand that such a feat existing does make the extended duration a bit tricky and am willing to concede that if it blows that up, then perhaps its not the best option.
I'll stand by my idea and say that I think it's a good idea - I just had no knowledge that it would interefer in such a feat since I do not use the splat/supplement books.
EDIT: Regardless, if its a more frequency route that is to be utilized (as opposed to a simple duration), then it still needs to have the caveat that it is NOT wasted with a missed attack roll.
Robert
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The problem to me with extended duration effects for smiting is that they throw the balance of any feat that messes with smites out of whack and therefor kills backwards compatability. Say the tactical feat from complete champion. If smite is extended duration that means I get a free trip attempt every round for the duration or one of two other effects. That's why I think we need to keep the mechanic basically the same and merely tamper with the # of smites a paladin gets, the attack bonus, and the damage bonus. Anything else kinda breaks the backwards comp of splat book feats built around the old version of smite. and after all we want to be able to use all those nifty things out of our 3.5 collection right?Agreed! To be honest, I wouldn't change frequency, for that same reason. However, the bonus to hit, and damage is open season, and frankly, I think damage should be severely upped.
To be accurate - he didn't say change not to change the frequency - he said not to extend the duration for a extended period of time.
Changing the frequency (or amount per day if you will) of the smite evils is exactly what MOST have been arguing for.
I'm all for that, or for an extended duration.
Personally, since I don't use the splat books - and never even looked at the complete champion - i have no knowledge nor do I use those feats - so it wouldn't affect my gaming experience from that regards - but I do understand that such a feat existing does make the extended duration a bit tricky and am willing to concede that if it blows that up, then perhaps its not the best option.
I'll stand by my idea and say that I think it's a good idea - I just had no knowledge that it would interefer in such a feat since I do not use the splat/supplement books.
EDIT: Regardless, if its a more frequency route that is to be utilized (as opposed to a simple duration), then it still needs to have the caveat that it is NOT wasted with a missed attack roll....
Oh please do not get me wrong, I like the idea of extended duration. I like it a lot, but when I went and looked at some of the smiting feats in my various books I realized that it would throw things in to much favor for the pally. What about the spontaneous caster idea, anyone see a problem with that?
Smite Evil once per day per level + CHA modifier (So a 5th lvl Paladin with 18 CHA will have 8 smites/day) and unlimited Lay on Hands works fine. IF the DM wants the Paladin to have fewer Smites per day, don't throw evil creatures at them.
Giving unlimited Lay on Hands is no big deal either. It still requires one round, so is still very limited in combat. Outside of combat it helps the party bounce back even faster, which I think is a good thing.
I've never thought of Detect Evil as something to be used in combat. Its for prior to combat. Plus we allow evil to be sensed accurately in the first round.
I commend the 4 skill points per day, skills have never been powerful enough to break a game, but they have been few enough to ruin a characters play.
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I would be happy with just Cha mod+1 smites per day with the ability specifically saying "this ability is not used up on a miss." and the ability to dump Cha mod worth of smites on a standard action. If those two things were added to the pathfinder rules I would consider the paladin a success. Now Ideally I would also like spontaneous casting, but I'm willing to accept those two changes.
The skill point discussion I'm holding off on because I want all classes to have a min of 4 now that they don't get the first level boost.
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Oh please do not get me wrong, I like the idea of extended duration. I like it a lot, but when I went and looked at some of the smiting feats in my various books I realized that it would throw things in to much favor for the pally. What about the spontaneous caster idea, anyone see a problem with that?
I didnt get you wrong; I knew where you were coming from. I just didn't have the capability of seeing it from that perspective until you enlightened me of it - since I do not own, never read, that particular splat book (Champion), and I don't use splat books in general.
For me - the duration works perfectly.
For backwards compatibility, I can see the error in it - now knowing your issue. I am encouraged however that you otherwise think it's a good idea.
Since I don't use the splat books, I think i'm going to use the duration idea going forward in my campaigns.
As for the spontaneous casting - I use a spell energy system (I have for many years) and so all spells are essentially spontaneously cast anyway, so the move to such a notion is not something I would contest; then again since I dont use the memorization system, keeping it as is would be irrelevant, too. ;-)
Robert
I would be happy with just Cha mod+1 smites per day with the ability specifically saying "this ability is not used up on a miss." and the ability to dump Cha mod worth of smites on a standard action. If those two things were added to the pathfinder rules I would consider the paladin a success. Now Ideally I would also like spontaneous casting, but I'm willing to accept those two changes.
The skill point discussion I'm holding off on because I want all classes to have a min of 4 now that they don't get the first level boost.
I think that would work fine as well. The main thing is giving the Paladin more chances to Smite. Your way with the caveat of "not expended when strike is missed" is comparable to my example if you assume a 11 or better is needed to hit on average. So a 50/50 chance of use, which would make my example of 8 times per day 4 EFFECTIVE uses per day, since only half would likely hit. Yours would be better if their CHA is 18. 5 Smites per day. Add in a Splendor spell and they could get in a couple of more.
I'm currently playing a pally In Our groups Beta play test. I agree that even at 5th level I feel the pally is lacking something. For one I like the Idea that if you miss you do not loose the smite for the day. Too often one unlucky roll has messed me over. Also I Feel that the smite should apply to all attack that round. That way When you do get multiple attacks you will get cha to hit on each attack. As well as damage from smite.
OK, many moons ago, I posted my non-Spellcasting Paladin. Its about to get its first playtest and incorporates beta material and many ideas from these boards, as well as a few of my and my groups own, a true hodge-podge of ideas. So without further ado, here it is, enjoy !
PALADIN
Alignment : Lawful Good.
Hit Die : D10.
Class Skills
The Paladin’s Class Skills ( and the key ability for each skill ) are : Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill at 1st Level : 3 + Int. Modifier
Bab : Full
Fort Save : As 3.5 PHB Paladin
Ref Save : As 3.5 PHB Paladin
Will Save :
LvL Will Save
1 +0
2 +0
3 +1
4 +1
5 +2
6 +2
7 +3
8 +3
9 +4
10 +4
11 +5
12 +5
13 +6
14 +6
15 +7
16 +7
17 +8
18 +8
19 +9
20 +9
LvL Special
1 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil +1D6
2 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands ( Healing, Lsr. Restor. )
3 Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4 Channel Positive Energy, Aura of Faith
5 Smite Evil +2D6, Lay on Hands ( Neutral. Poison )
6 Divine Bond
7 Aura of Resolve
8 Lay on Hands ( Remove Disease )
9 Aura of Justice
10 Smite Evil +3D6
11 Lay on Hands ( Cure Blindness / Deafness )
12 Heroes Feast
13 Aura of Warding
14 Lay on Hands ( Restoration )
15 Smite Evil +4D6
16 Aura of Righteousness
17 Lay on Hands ( Remove Curse )
18 Holy Word
19 Aura of Consecration
20 Smite Evil +5D6, Holy Champion
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Paladin :
Weapon and Armor Proficiency : Paladins are proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, with all types of Armor ( Heavy, Medium, and Light ), and with Shields ( except Tower Shields ).
Aura of Good (Ex) : The power of a Paladin’s Aura of Good ( see the Detect Good Spell ) is equal to his Paladin Level. At 8th Level, this Aura extends to any weapon he wields, treating it as Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Detect Evil (Sp) : At will, a Paladin can use Detect Evil, as the Spell.
Smite Evil (Su) : A Paladin may attempt to Smite Evil with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma Bonus ( if any ) to his attack roll and deals +1D6 extra damage. If the Paladin accidentally Smites a creature that is not Evil, or misses his attack, the Smite has no effect, but the ability is not used up for that day. A Paladin may Smite Evil a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma Modifier ( if any ). A Paladin’s Smite is considered Good Aligned for overcoming Damage Reduction. At 5th Level, and at every five Levels thereafter, the Paladin may Smite Evil one additional time per day, and the Smite damage increases by +1D6 ( +2D6 at 5th Level, +3D6 at 10th Level, etc… ).
Divine Grace (Su) : At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a Bonus equal to his Charisma Bonus ( if any ) on all Saving Throws.
Lay on Hands (Su) : Beginning at 2nd level, a Paladin can heal wounds ( his own or those of others, including his Bonded Mount, if he has one ) by touch. Each day he can use Lay on Hands 3+ his Charisma Modifier ( if any ). At 1st level, this healing is equal to a Cure Light Wounds Spell. At 5th Level, it is equal to a Cure Moderate Wounds Spell. At 10th, it is equal to Cure Serious Wounds, and at 15th it is equal to Cure Critical Wounds. The Paladin may also Lay on Hands to use Lesser Restoration ( as the Spell ) at this Level. As his Level increases, he may use his Lay on Hands to produce greater effects. The Paladin may always choose a lesser effect, if desired. At 5th Level, he can use Neutralize Poison, at 8th Level Remove Disease, at 11th Level Remove Blindness / Deafness, at 14th Level Restoration, at 17th Level Remove Curse, and finally at 20th Level, Raise Dead. The Paladin’s Caster Level is equal to his Paladin Level for these Spells and the Difficulty Class for a Saving Throw against a Paladin’s abilities is 10 + the ability ( or Spell ) Level + the Paladin’s Wisdom Modifier. Also, at these levels, when he gains new Powers, he also gains one extra daily use of Lay on Hands. Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing abilities to deal damage to Undead creatures. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an Attack of Opportunity. It is a Swift Action to use Lay on Hands.
Aura of Courage (Su) : Beginning at 3rd level, a Paladin is Immune to Fear ( magical or otherwise ). Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Fear effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Divine Health (Ex) : At 3rd level, a Paladin gains Immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Channel Positive Energy (Su) : When a Paladin reaches 4th level, he gains the supernatural ability to Channel Positive Energy. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma Modifier. He Channels Positive Energy as a Cleric of three Levels lower would.
Aura of Faith (Su) : At 4th Level, the Paladin may generate an Aura equal to a Light Spell cast at his Level. Upon reaching 12th Level, this becomes equal to a Daylight Spell. This aura counters Darkness related magic as the Spells they are modeled on. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Divine Bond (Sp) : Upon reaching 6th level, a Paladin gains a Divine Bond with his God. He acquires the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him in his crusade against evil (see below) or, he is Divinely Inspired to create a weapon, which will grow in Divine Power for him to use.
Bonded Mount
This mount is usually a heavy warhorse ( for a Medium Paladin ) or a warpony ( for a Small Paladin ).
When he is ready, a Paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the Paladin. The mount remains with the Paladin, serving faithfully, as long as the Paladin doesn’t violate his Code. If the Paladin ever knowingly violates his Code, the Mount immediately returns to the Celestial Realms. Should a Paladin atone successfully, His Mount may be recalled. Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a Paladin Level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 Penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Bonded Weapon
The Paladin may receive a Divine Vision of an extraordinary weapon. In this case, he must acquire the Special Materials, and forge the weapon himself. The Paladin may make this check as if he were trained in the Craft ( Weaponsmith ) Skill. If he is already Trained in this skill, he may add a +2 Divine Bonus to the check. If the Skill check is successful, he has crafted a Masterwork weapon that becomes Magical, gaining a simple +1 Enhancement Bonus and that is treated as Good aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. At 9th Level it becomes +2 and gains the Holy Special Ability. At 12th Level it becomes +3, allowing the Paladin to Dispel Magic 1 / Round as caster of his Level. The area Dispel is the only option available, however. At 15th Level it becomes a +4 Weapon that can Cast Break Enchantment on a creature touched ( or attacked ) 2/Day. The Paladin uses his Paladin Level as the Caster Level. Finally, at 18th Level, it becomes +5 and generates a constant Holy Aura around the Paladin ( as the 8th Level Cleric Spell ).
Aura of Resolve (Su) : At 7th Level, a Paladin is Immune to Charm Spells and Spell-like Abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Charm effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Justice (Su) : At 9th Level, any weapon the Paladin wields is now considered Lawful for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Heroes Feast (Su) : At 12th Level, the Paladin can produce a Heroes Feast, as the Spell, which will also feed his Bonded Mount, if he has one. This can be done once per day.
Aura of Warding (Su) : At 13th Level, the Paladin is surrounded by a protective Aura equal to a Magic Circle vs. Evil. The Paladin’s Level is considered the Caster Level for all related effects. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Aura of Righteousness (Su) : At 16th Level, the Paladin gains DR 5 / Evil and is immune to Compulsion Spells and Spell-like effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Compulsion effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Holy Word (Su) : At 18th Level, the Paladin can utter a Holy Word once per day, as the Spell of the same name, with his Level as the Caster Level and Difficulty Class for a Saving Throw against it is 10 + the Spell Level + the Paladin’s Wisdom Modifier.
Aura of Consecration (Su) : At 19th Level, the Paladin becomes a living vessel for his God’s Power. He is constantly surrounded by a Hallow Spell ( equal to his Level as the Caster Level ). This also counteracts Unhallowed areas, but both effects are temporarily suppressed. When the Paladin moves out of such an area, both effects resume. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Holy Champion (Su) : At 20th Level, the Paladin becomes a conduit for the power of his God. His DR increases to 10 / Evil. Whenever he uses his Smite Evil against an evil Outsider, the Outsider is subject to a Banishment, using his Paladin level as the Caster level ( his Weapon and Holy Symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates ). In addition, whenever he Channels Positive Energy, he channels the maximum amount possible.
Code of Conduct: A Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment and loses all Class Abilities if he ever willingly commits an Evil act. Additionally, a Paladin’s Code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor ( not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth ), help those in need ( provided they do not use the help for Evil or Chaotic ends ), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates : While he may adventure with characters of any Good or Neutral alignment, a Paladin will never knowingly associate with Evil characters, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A Paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are Lawful Good.
Ex-Paladins
A Paladin who ceases to be Lawful Good, who willfully commits an Evil act, or who grossly violates the Code of Conduct loses all Paladin Abilities ( including the service of the Paladin’s Mount or Weapon, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies ). He may not progress any farther in Levels as a Paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations ( see the Atonement Spell description ), as appropriate. Like a member of any other Class, a Paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass Paladins face a special restriction. A Paladin who gains a Level in any Class other than Paladin may never again raise his Paladin Level, though he retains all his Paladin abilities.
And, truthfully, adding Spellcasting back in wouldn't be that hard at all, really, but I feel this covers a Holy Warrior very well.
I've not yet have had the time to read everything here, but what about allowing the paladin to do something else than extra damage when fighting evil? Weakening evil creatures with hits? Daze, stun...
Allowing paladins to cast their spells quickened, so that they can boost themselves in combat would also be a nice touch, although I'd limit this only to spells that affect the paladin only (he can bless others, but must cast the spell normally). A holy warrior muttering prayers as he swings his weapon against enemies of his faith and actually receiving benefits for that seems fine to me.
@Bladesinger, I like the conversion but it seems like you gave up a lot with the loss of spells and gained to little (comparing to the PF Paladin that is). I would also take into account a bit more smiting...possibly one of the suggestions from above. Of course I like mine but there are a couple other good ones. Other than that it looks pretty good.
I've not yet have had the time to read everything here, but what about allowing the paladin to do something else than extra damage when fighting evil? Weakening evil creatures with hits? Daze, stun...
Allowing paladins to cast their spells quickened, so that they can boost themselves in combat would also be a nice touch, although I'd limit this only to spells that affect the paladin only (he can bless others, but must cast the spell normally). A holy warrior muttering prayers as he swings his weapon against enemies of his faith and actually receiving benefits for that seems fine to me.
I like the idea of the quickened spells...I think that would make the paladin much stronger. I have been an advocate of dropping the spells for awhile in favor of doing other things better, but this idea has promise!
I think making spells a swift action would be better.
I would be completely cool with that.
So to summarize...
Detect Evil = Swift action
LOH = Use a number of "uses" = Char mod in one action.
Smite Evil = Something that increases the # of uses a day.
Spells = Swift action.
These changes would definitely make the paladin feel more like the Holy Warrior he is supposed to be!
I really hope the devs have been watching this board, I would really like to see a system that gets the paladins right!