Paladin in action


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WannabeIndy wrote:
A week or so till the Pally's up for treatment, The other three martial classes first though :-(.

Ok..i get it, the paladin is always last...whatever :) Is there some sort of list somewhere? How do we know what is being focused on?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
WannabeIndy wrote:
A week or so till the Pally's up for treatment, The other three martial classes first though :-(.
Ok..i get it, the paladin is always last...whatever :) Is there some sort of list somewhere? How do we know what is being focused on?

Here


Thanx Paul..

Looks like all we have written here will have to be reposted as soon as that new board pops up....but to save the paladin it is worth it!


Paul Watson wrote:


5) Smite is added for free against creatures of the [Evil] subtype.

Not sure exactly what you meant by this one Paul...could you clarify?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:


5) Smite is added for free against creatures of the [Evil] subtype.
Not sure exactly what you meant by this one Paul...could you clarify?

When the Paladin attacks a creature the [Evil] subtype, i.e. a demon or devil, he gets they benefit of a smite, but it doesn't cost him a use. This is the weakest of the ideas I had, IMHO.


Paul Watson wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:


5) Smite is added for free against creatures of the [Evil] subtype.
Not sure exactly what you meant by this one Paul...could you clarify?
When the Paladin attacks a creature the [Evil] subtype, i.e. a demon or devil, he gets they benefit of a smite, but it doesn't cost him a use. This is the weakest of the ideas I had, IMHO.

Sort of goes along with what I have been saying all along. Paladins should be smiting all day long! But I have to admit that it would be a bit to powerful if added on top of the other changes you have suggested. So yes I agree with an "always on" effect against evil, though it has to balance. Unless you were saying that this effect ONLY worked against demons and devils...that might not be as bad but still seems sort of powerful.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:


5) Smite is added for free against creatures of the [Evil] subtype.
Not sure exactly what you meant by this one Paul...could you clarify?
When the Paladin attacks a creature the [Evil] subtype, i.e. a demon or devil, he gets they benefit of a smite, but it doesn't cost him a use. This is the weakest of the ideas I had, IMHO.
Sort of goes along with what I have been saying all along. Paladins should be smiting all day long! But I have to admit that it would be a bit to powerful if added on top of the other changes you have suggested. So yes I agree with an "always on" effect against evil, though it has to balance. Unless you were saying that this effect ONLY worked against demons and devils...that might not be as bad but still seems sort of powerful.

Yup. Only against [Evil] creatures. It's basically a free swing against those things that are the true embodiments of what he's fighting normally, so it makes thematic sense. I think it's the weakest because it introduces another mechanic which I prefer to avoid doing. Haven't actually tested any of these yet.

And the suggestions are a smörgåsbord to take as much or as little from them as you wish. They could all work together which would mean that the paladin fighting a demon or devil would be doing twice level damage as holy damage per hit, bypassing their DR and gaining +Cha Mod to hit them. That does seem a little strong. I don't think 4 and 5 can work together. You either get a free smite or double damage against the forces of darkness.

The other changes were to make smite less of a one shot deal and to ameliorate the consequences a miss to make it more palatable. They wouldn't apply to situations where 5 applied.


I think you are on the same page as the rest of us Paul. We have actually come up with a few different examples that match what you are saying. I was initially saying that smite should have an always on effect (just like your #5) but Robert took it a step further.

As we pondered the ideas of how to fix smite and came to many road blocks, the biggest of those being backwards compatibility and the possibility of people abusing the class with splat books and level dipping, we came to another conclusion.

Make a completely new ability that is always active and adds reasonable numbers to the paladins to hit and damage against evil. Many different suggestions about how to do this. I say add Char as a bonus to hit and half paladin level to damage. Robert says add..what was it...level to hit and a scaling bonus to damage that would = what the times per day currently are. Either way some moderate bonus to hit and damage that always works against evil is very much needed.

On top of this Lastknightleft's suggestions for fixing smite with 1+Char bonus attempts per day at first level. And possibly doing double paladin level in damage with maybe even adding in an auto confirming critical ability would fix the current incarnation of smite.

There have been plenty of other suggestions for fixing Detect Evil and Lay On hands, I agree those are great ideas. But my biggest concern is with the paladins ability to defeat evil, I think the two suggestions listed above would put the paladin on the playing field in the capacity that he should be, a holy warrior that evil fears to face!

Liberty's Edge

What about adding something like the ranger's favoured enemy bonus that applies when encountering evil creatures? +2 to damage and some skills, and it increases as you go up in level (same intervals as ranger). The smite can be kept as written and used for those times when you need an extra boost.


Xuttah wrote:
What about adding something like the ranger's favoured enemy bonus that applies when encountering evil creatures? +2 to damage and some skills, and it increases as you go up in level (same intervals as ranger). The smite can be kept as written and used for those times when you need an extra boost.

I mentioned that just a few posts above. I like the idea but Robert was against it. It feels like it would work to me just only against evil things (which would include undead and evil outsiders, maybe Chaotic outsiders, not sure).

Even with this addition, whatever way we can word it so that the paladin has some form of always on mechanic, I think the "smite" still needs a boost. Either in times per day (I would prefer per encounter optimally) or in additional damage/bonuses or all of the above.

Liberty's Edge

I think an increase in frequency is easier to impliment. Adding CHA bonus times per day is simple, fast, and benefits the class accross the level progression.

Liberty's Edge

Vult Wrathblades wrote:


Make a completely new ability that is always active and adds reasonable numbers to the paladins to hit and damage against evil. Many different suggestions about how to do this. I say add Char as a bonus to hit and half paladin level to damage. Robert says add..what was it...level to hit and a scaling bonus to damage that would = what the times per day currently are. Either way some moderate bonus to hit and damage that always works against evil is very much needed.

close. My suggestion was to add bonuses to attack rolls vs evil equal to +1 at first level and increases by +1 at every 3 levels after that. (essentially the levels where the Smite Evil ability is listed to gain another use: +1 at 1st, +2 at 4th, +3 at 7th, etc, and a bonus to damage equal to Charisma modifier.

The ability would just be some divine bonus which will help keep the gap in attack roll bonuses between that of the paladin and those of the barb and fighter.

The reasoning for the bonuses to attacks being based on paladin level as opposed to Cha Mod, is to prevent level dipping. Otherwise, it would be too lucrative for characters to take one level of paladin and have an ever-present bonus to all attack rolls to all evil equal to Cha Mod (if that character has a good Charisma of course).

THEN, Smite Evil as a seperate ability - perhaps when used, (still only on a few attacks per day) that does something like double damage or something to that affect.

The bottom line - paladins are way behind on avg in their attack bonuses - even when using smite evil - and they are too few. Even increasing the Smite Evil's # of daily uses by adding the Charisma modifer to them, is not frequent enough considering they're alreay behind the curve all the time. In theory, the paladin should be only slightly behind the fighter and barbarian in ability to hit, and the few smites per day should provide a significant boost to make that attack MORE lucrative than the fighter's normal attack ability.

As it is, even with the Smite Evil activated 3 or so attacks per day - STILL falls short of both the fighter and barbarian on avg -- as I have illustrated on this thread a number of times.

Robert


Robert Brambley wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:


Make a completely new ability that is always active and adds reasonable numbers to the paladins to hit and damage against evil. Many different suggestions about how to do this. I say add Char as a bonus to hit and half paladin level to damage. Robert says add..what was it...level to hit and a scaling bonus to damage that would = what the times per day currently are. Either way some moderate bonus to hit and damage that always works against evil is very much needed.

close. My suggestion was to add bonuses to attack rolls vs evil equal to +1 at first level and increases by +1 at every 3 levels after that. (essentially the levels where the Smite Evil ability is listed to gain another use: +1 at 1st, +2 at 4th, +3 at 7th, etc, and a bonus to damage equal to Charisma modifier.

The ability would just be some divine bonus which will help keep the gap in attack roll bonuses between that of the paladin and those of the barb and fighter.

The reasoning for the bonuses to attacks being based on paladin level as opposed to Cha Mod, is to prevent level dipping. Otherwise, it would be too lucrative for characters to take one level of paladin and have an ever-present bonus to all attack rolls to all evil equal to Cha Mod (if that character has a good Charisma of course).

THEN, Smite Evil as a seperate ability - perhaps when used, (still only on a few attacks per day) that does something like double damage or something to that affect.

The bottom line - paladins are way behind on avg in their attack bonuses - even when using smite evil - and they are too few. Even increasing the Smite Evil's # of daily uses by adding the Charisma modifer to them, is not frequent enough considering they're alreay behind the curve all the time. In theory, the paladin should be only slightly behind the fighter and barbarian in ability to hit, and the few smites per day should provide a significant boost to make that attack MORE lucrative than the fighter's normal attack ability....

I knew it was something like that. AT least we are on the same page now. I would be happy with that compromise. I think it start to fill in the gaps and bring the paladin up to where he should be when fighting evil. I have to be honest, I still like the idea of Char bonus to hit and half paladin level to damage but not kicking in till lvl 3 or 5 or something, but I would be happy with your suggestion aswell....either way it is a HUGE improvement on the current system. And it was a very good call to just make this a seperate divine type ability, completely away from Smite for the reasons we have listed before.

I cant wait for the paladin discussion to get started...I honestly think we have this licked but I know there will be people screaming that it is to powerful, despite the proof being in the numbers that the other classes will still have an advantage.


I thought this was very interesting and I think it really REALLY backs up a lot of what we have been saying!

This was posted by Crusader of Logic on a thread about caster/fighter balance in the general forum.

What do you guys think? I think this is a great explanation of class balance (its not the definitive answer or anything) and shows you about where every class ranks to each other. No real surprise that the paladin is at the LOWEST ranks currently. I think that our changes will fix this issue.

The following is a repost of something I made over on the WotC forums. I'm not exactly sure which forum to put it on, as it's intended for a variety of purposes. It's here mostly because I'd like to get some feedback from knowledgeable minds, but it's also a useful tool, much like a handbook, and available for use.

My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group. If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters. If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity. Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members. Neither is desireable. Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

2) To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3) To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4) To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games. It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out. However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

5) To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier. Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4. If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in itallics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favoured Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factorum, Warblade

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Varient), Psionic Warrior

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

Now, obviously these rankings only apply when mechanical abilities are being used... in a more social oriented game where talking is the main way of solving things (without using diplomacy checks), any character can shine. However, when the mechanical abilities of the classes in question are being used, it's a bad idea to have parties with more than two tiers of difference.

It is interesting to note the disparity between the core classes... one of the reasons core has so many problems. If two players want to play a nature oriented shapeshifter and a general sword weilder, you're stuck with two very different tiered guys in the party (Fighter and Druid). Outside of core, it's possible to do it while staying on close Tiers... Wild Shape Varient Ranger and Warblade, for example.

JaronK

I'd rank the 3.5 Paladin as Tier 5 (and it's bordering on 6).

Reasons:

1: First and foremost is the code. The way it is written, you have what is known as simple rules for a complex world. Just as a child like mentality works fine for cookies out of the cookie jar, but doesn't really do much in regard to actual crime, the paladin code is not workable within the real (to the characters) world. Therefore, he loses all class abilities becoming a Fighter sans bonus feats. It is not a question of if this will happen, but when.

2: Ignoring that and looking at the crunch... they get a small number of situational attacks that add small to medium bonuses to one attack a few times a day. If Smite Evil were per encounter, it'd be somewhat significant. Per day, no. What else do they get? Cha to saves (the big pull), a bit of healing from LoH which is Paladin level * Cha bonus and therefore is lucky to be worth a single Heal spell total at level 20 (and before that, it falls behind other level appropriate single healing magics). They get a mount, which sounds great except that mounts are very situational and mounted combat (which your mount is a living reminder that you 'must' specialize in) is even more so. They also get a few spells, but due to the half CL mechanic, and being based on a secondary stat on a very multiple attribute dependent character most of them end up useless by default for those reasons.

3: For these and other reasons if you want to play a holy warrior concept character you are better off using another class. Even if that class is Fighter, you're still better off. If it is Crusader or Cleric instead, even better.

Paladins would be Tier 4 if their code was workable, smite was per encounter, LoH was expanded in some way, and they got full CL (but still only max 4th level spells) so that they can make use of things like Dispel Magic, and not be so easily Dispelled in return. If PF nerfed the Paladin, it's probably Tier 6. I haven't looked at the PF paladin yet as I have had no reason to.

Liberty's Edge

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

I thought this was very interesting and I think it really REALLY backs up a lot of what we have been saying!

This was posted by Crusader of Logic on a thread about caster/fighter balance in the general forum.

Good post, Vult. Thanks for sharing.

I have to agree with the author that the 3.5 Paladin was a tier 5. I'll give credit where due, I believe Pathfinder has elevated it to 4, by moving the spellcasting stat to Charisma, making the channeling of energy capable of healing his comrades, and made the holy weapon an option (instead of mount).

Their other class-based immunities are also helpful.

All-in-all, I'd say it's a 4 - still fairly situational, and still a one-trick pony - which is to say smiting (which gets used up quickly) and resisting magical attacks - which are situational.

Robert


Hi All,

I thought I would chime in with my ideas and suggestions for the Paladin. It is my favorite class as well and I am happy to see so much thought and effort being put towards it here. Of note, some of my suggestions have been mentioned by others so I don't pretend to be the originator of them. I just made some notes here and there as I read through the thread. OK here I go...

Bonus Feats: Paladins are supposed to be an elite combatant at the forefront of the battle. Martial prowess is at the paladin's heart. To not hone his martial skills is to dishonor their deity and themselves. As such, they should be better at combat than an NPC warrior class or standard man-at arms. I suggest that Paladins be given a bonus combat feat every 4 levels. They should also have access to Weapon Specialization. This gives them some more oomph in battle but still not as good as a fighter with their many bonus feats every 2 levels.

Paladins vs Evil: Paladins should get a bonus to hit and damage vs evil opponents and maybe also vs chaotic ones too. They get a +1 at first level and then this increases every 4 or 5 levels. i.e. +2 at 4th, +3 at 8th, etc. This keeps them on par with a fighter when against the evil foes. I mention chaotic enemies so if they were to face CN opponents for example they could still hold their own.

Smite Evil: Smite evil basically stays as is but instead of bonus damage equal to level make this bonus damage dice. It should escalate similar to sneak attack i.e. +1d6 at 1st level, +2d6 at 3rd, +3d6 at 5th, etc. This bonus damage is considered Holy and can bypass DR. The paladin does not lose his smite attempt if he misses. I like the adding the cha bonus to paladin's number of smite uses mentioned by others.

Divine Bond: I'm not that thrilled with Divine Bond. I don't think it has that great an impact on the game. It is cool but not really meaningful in game mechanics. Mounts are often underutilized or irrelevant in most adventures and the magic weapon, while "neat", is simply matched by other characters finding magic weapons of their own. It also takes away from the paladin questing to find a holy avenger or other major sword of their own. This ability just gives them one.

Deity's Favored Weapon: Another thought regarding paladin's and weapons - paladins should have any of their abilities restricted to a deities favored weapon. Paladins should be able to use any weapon they choose and still get their abilities. In a Realms campaign I had a paladin of Ilmater (and there are many paladin orders dedicated to this deity). Ilmater's favored weapon is unarmed strike - sucks be a pally of ilmater when it comes to favored weapon as a requirement. Also, looking at the 3 LG gods in PF the favored weapon is long bow, warhammer, and long sword. Not much variety for paladins there. Remove the "favored weapon of deity" retriction for the pally. The paladin himself is the weapon of his deity it should not matter if he wields a battle axe or great sword or punches bad guys on the nose.

Lay on Hands: I would leave LOH same as 3/3.5 players book for number of hit points healed and the daily pool of healing. Maybe you can say that the max a paladin can heal is one shot is equal to 1/2 or 1/4 of the pool total. example 10th level paladin with 18 cha has healing pool of 40 HP. In one shot, he could heal max 20 HP. Personally, it doesn't bother me if he can do all 40 HP in one shot but others have mentioned this is too much when compared to the cleric.

Detect Evil: I don't have any real thoughts on this one. I guess I'd leave it as is from 3.5.

Divine Grace, Divine Health, cure disease, LOH, etc: These are the paladin's rewards for having strict role playing rules regarding how they are played. It is a challenge to play a paladin and it should be rewarding for the player. It is also something the paladin can lose if they don't live up to their code.

LG: I still firmly believe that a paladin needs to be LG. Other good alignments don't quite have within them the discipline implied by the lawful part and this is embodied in following the code. And while the paladin respects rightful authority it is also the paladin's duty to challenge non-righteous leadership, abuse of authority, and tyranny.

I think this is what I would do to the paladin. This improves their combat ability without them overtaking the fighter. Maybe this will strike some as too much of a change but I don't think it is overpowering or unbalancing relative to other character classes. The paladin belongs in the frontline, taking the fight to evil. They are not just meant to absorb damage so other player can have all the fun with their characters. Paladins should take it but they should also be able to dish it out.

Thanks for reading.


lastknightleft wrote:
Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:
Vult Wrathblades wrote:
I am starting to think that this drive to keep everything backwards compatible is going to truly hurt PF. I personally dont feel like keeping it compatible is such a huge concern but I am obviously the minority in this case.

Given the investment folks have put into their 'splatbooks', yes, I think it would be unfair to them to fail on Backward Compatibility. It is easier for individuals to house-rule on a few issues rather than force others to make new rules just to accommodate. I'm not finding fault with your position, only trying to be fair toward everyone's position. I hope you can forgive that. :)

I don't think backwards compatibility should be a primary goal of Pathfinder, at least not with respect to the splat books. Pathfinder is supposed to be an attempt to fix the parts of 3.5 that are deemed broken. Many players feel that one of the problems with 3.5 is Too Many Splatbooks. These books introduced some unbalancing feats and rules into the game in some people's opinions. Also, splatbooks are optional, they are not core. PF should be backward compatible with core rules, not necessarily the optional ones. PF should focus on fixing problems in the core rules, you should modify the options to be forward compatible with the new core rules. People can still use all of the splatbooks if their group allows but they should adjust them to fit the new system as appropriate. Just my thoughts. Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Martin Nevens wrote:

I don't think backwards compatibility should be a primary goal of Pathfinder, at least not with respect to the splat books. Pathfinder is supposed to be an attempt to fix the parts of 3.5 that are deemed broken. Many players feel that one of the problems with 3.5 is Too Many Splatbooks. These books introduced some unbalancing feats and rules into the game in some people's opinions. Also, splatbooks are optional, they are not core. PF should be backward compatible with core rules, not necessarily the optional ones. PF should focus on fixing problems in the core rules, you should modify the options to be forward compatible with the new core rules. People can still use all of the splatbooks if their group allows but they should adjust them to fit the new system as appropriate. Just my thoughts. Thanks.

For the record, I completely with this agree with this sentiment.

That being said - if Paizo's goal is to be backwards compatible with all splat books as well as core, I have no problem trying to honor that.

But for what it's worth, my opinion is and has always been "splat books be damned, the core books are what we need to focus on."

Robert

Liberty's Edge

Martin Nevens wrote:

Hi All,

I thought I would chime in with my ideas and suggestions for the Paladin.

Divine Bond: I'm not that thrilled with Divine Bond. I don't think it has that great an impact on the game. It is cool but not really meaningful in game mechanics. Mounts are often underutilized or irrelevant in most adventures and the magic weapon, while "neat", is simply matched by...

Hey Martin, thanks for joining the discussion and sharing your ideas.

My only problem with the Divine Bond, is for the weapon, it comes and only used for a few minutes all at once - which usually means once again, the paladin is only 'great' in one combat. (unless you have two within 10 minutes).

I would much prefer a much shorter duration, but access to use it more often.

# of times per day equal to half-paladin level (so 2 times at fifth when you get it - and 3 at the next level), and lasts 1 minute each.

That way you can summon and unsummon it repeatedly throughout the day for various combats.

Robert

Sovereign Court

Hey guys, just wanted to remind everyone that even though the discussion is good, this isn't a [Think Tank] Paladin thread, it's a playtest report for my character. As such Even though I know that other parts of the paladin might be up for discussion later, I don't want to get too caught up in talking about them as they are irrelevant to the playtest reporting. As of now the character is level 2 probably going to be level 3 by end of next session so the discussion needs to be kept (in as much as is possible) to the abilities that are actually available there that way it stays relevant. This thread knows that the abilities I am working with are problematic in play, we don't know yet how divine bond or the aura abilities affect actual gameplay yet and so it's best not to focus discussion on them here. If you feel they need discussion now then by all means, post a discussion about it in the General Forum. I just don't want this thread to become the paladin debate thread when its meant to deal with the problems actually arising in play.

Sovereign Court

Freesword wrote:

I've been saying that Smite Evil needs a boost since the Alpha. Both in number of uses per day and damage.

For uses per day I suggested increasing it by 3 (4/day at first with the same progression ending with 10/day) but adding CHA modifier to the number of used per day would also be acceptable.

For damage increase I suggested level*2.

Adding CHA to hit for the smite is fine as is.

With regard to Lay on Hands, I've always viewed it as more of a "Healing Lite" myself, more for out of combat and stabilizing in combat. Therefore I don't have a problem with it as it stands. It is on par with the Monk's Wholeness of Body except that it is not self only.

Re-reading this thread I just caught that this person was the first to mention level * 2 to damage and just wanted to make sure they got the credit for it.

Liberty's Edge

Martin Nevens wrote:

Hi All,

Smite Evil: Smite evil basically stays as is but instead of bonus damage equal to level make this bonus damage dice. It should escalate similar to sneak attack i.e. +1d6 at 1st level, +2d6 at 3rd, +3d6 at 5th, etc. This bonus damage is considered Holy and can bypass DR. The paladin does not lose his smite attempt if he misses. I like the adding the cha bonus to paladin's number of smite uses mentioned by others.

I just wanted to re-iterate that for my money, it's not the smite evil damage that concerns me so much as the bonuses needed to actually hit - due to the typical tough ACs for the BBEGs and the gross gap between a typical fighter or barbarian at a given level and that of a paladin on avg.

Robert

Liberty's Edge

lastknightleft wrote:
Hey guys, just wanted to remind everyone that even though the discussion is good, this isn't a [Think Tank] Paladin thread, it's a playtest report for my character. As such Even though I know that other parts of the paladin might be up for discussion later, I don't want to get too caught up in talking about them as they are irrelevant to the playtest reporting. As of now the character is level 2 probably going to be level 3 by end of next session so the discussion needs to be kept (in as much as is possible) to the abilities that are actually available there that way it stays relevant. This thread knows that the abilities I am working with are problematic in play, we don't know yet how divine bond or the aura abilities affect actual gameplay yet and so it's best not to focus discussion on them here. If you feel they need discussion now then by all means, post a discussion about it in the General Forum. I just don't want this thread to become the paladin debate thread when its meant to deal with the problems actually arising in play.

Sorry to encroach. We have definitely failed to observe that. Regardless, it looks like the paladin discussion actually starts soon and I'm sure it'll be busy over there.

Robert


yea, somehow we turned this into something completely different than what Lastknightleft wanted it to be. For that I am sorry. But I do think that we have come up with some answers to some very serious paladin issues here and I hope we can use this discussion to get our voices heard when the actual paladin discussion board is up!

I for one will be referring back to this topic a LOT and probably doing some cutting and pasting. I hope we get some support there like we have here and get these things that we have come up with instituted into the game permanently!

Sovereign Court

Guys, please don't take that as an admonition against discussion, we just need to keep the discussion to the areas that are affected by my playtest. Right now those things are the paladin at low levels, the underwhelming nature of smite, lay on hands, and detect evil. I mean hell the discussion on that has gotten us to page five, I never thought it would. Plus what I like is how civil we've kept it even those who are dissenters who think there isn't a problem. So far everything we've covered has been great and I am really bummed that the game was cancelled tonight so that I'll have to wait till next monday to give another update. In the meantime I'll tell you that after rolling three nat 20s last session during combat and then not confirming, I decided to start my paladin as focused on getting those crits. Until story dictates otherwise my plan is to take victor's luck at 3rd level. Then Battle Blessing at 5th (this has nothing to do with my build, but this is a must have feat for a pally). After that I take unbelievable luck at 7th, better lucky than good at 9th, and improved critical at 11th. Then if necessary, I'll take weapon focus at 13 because it's the pre-req to taking power critical at 15, those are only if confirming still has issues even with are-roll at higher levels. In the end, I'll have a crit check on a roll of 1, 19, & 20, with a +4 chance to confirm and a total of 4 re-rolls a day to either turn nat 1s into 20 or re-roll a missed confirm, plus my weak reflex will only be off from my strong saves by one. That's where the character is aiming after my first real play session, we'll see how situation affects the build as play progresses. Oh and at this point I'm leaning towards weapon divine bond or the charging smite variant pally from PHII

Sovereign Court

Okay so my last session went pretty interestingly, we had left off just coming upon an isolated bandit group. So at the begining of the game my character walks up to the camp to make his presence known and question them. When it became obvious they were lying I told them to surrender and come with us. Of course that led to initiatives. Luckily I have made a point of taking peoples measure (detect evil) as I first talk to them so this time I knew there was one evil person in the group. Unfortunately to get to that guy I had to plow through about 6 characters. So I charged the person who was in front activated my law devotion for a boost to AC and immediately got surronded on the bandits round. Yay for me the evil guy had a bow so he backs way off leaving me to fight 5 non-evil guys while the knight rode around on his horse killing all the bowmen (including mr. evil). Finally as the knight killed 4 guys and the enemy realized they could only hit me maybe once every other round, they broke and ran off, I managed to knock two out (one during combat, the other as he tried to flee). So I went through an entire fight, ended with 9 of my 30 hp. The knight had gotten hit with a crit by a bow in the very first round so he was also down to 8, we both have thirty hp, so after combat I go to patch us up and heal my whopping 8 hp a day, 4 each. After all, I'd have to be a complete moron to use it in combat to heal 2 hp. Smite wasn't usable because these people aren't evil (I'm so convinced they are being magically compelled at this point its actually driving me nuts that we don't have a spellcaster, and I have to wait till level 4 for my spells so we have no way of knowing). I must say that with a bunch of rolled threes and nothing special to do during combat I've never felt so much like the warrior class as this night.

So we take our prisoners to town, start healing up, we have to patrol the town in case of retalitory attacks, so we couldn't get complete bedrest. so after three days of splitting up my healing between the two of us and resting we were still shy hp when the next attack came. The fight began with the enemy throwing alchemist fire on the silos that stored all the towns grain, so my first action is to run full tilt into the silo wall battering the flames down with my shield. A reflex save (finally, and passed) kept me from falling or catching on fire. Meanwhile a group of enemies comes around from behind the silo. I spend my next round continuing to batter the flames as they hold off for one bandit to try and tanglefoot me (again saved, so I do like my high saves). however, being entangled means I only have a +1 to hit. So once again I get surrounded by enemies as I am trying to wildly fend them off (once again using my law devotion for a +3 to AC) and battering the flames down during my turn with my shield. When the DM says my efforts managed to prevent the flames, I turn to attacking the group surrounding me. Funny story the town sheriff is fighting this fights BBEG and the knight tries to come riding up to assist me since I look like I am in dire straights and (out of character and in) I yell "what are you crazy go help Janus, I can handle this", the knight tries to argue and I yell again (out of character and in) "Just go!" so the knight rides to assist Janus, unfortunately he fell as the knight got to him. When the tanglefoot bag wore out I was finally able to start hitting and took out one mook, when a different mook got a crit, we use Paizo's crit hit deck so I had a fort save, even with my +7 I still failed when I rolled a 2. So I became sickened. Great, so I know there is one evil guy. Funny thing about Smite, it was barely enough to beat the sickened condition, I had a +1 to hit (not counting my normal bonus to hit) and normal damage because of it, for one round, whoopie. So I actually hit with that smite, but then stay surrounded until they finally realize almost everyone else is dead, reinforcements are coming, and they turn tail to run. At this point I run to help Janus, but as I get up to him I see the BBEG jump out of the barn window and start to limp off. The knight in order to follow him into the barn had dismounted, so I climbed up onto his horse, and charge it after the BBEG, he is just far enough that I have to spur the horse to reach him, take my charge, and roll a 1 followed by a 5, so I crit fumble, and my card is eat dirt (paizo's crit fumble deck FtW), I fall prone and am blinded for 1d3 rounds. I fall off the horse smash into the ground and hear the BBEG laughing as he mount the horse while i'm busy brushing dirt out of my eyes to see him riding off on the other players horse. My DM says it was the most cinematic, spectacular failure he has ever seen in D&D so at least it was memorable.

Xp gain was enough to level up and we left it there. So I got to look into level three for a paladin, wow, what a dissapointing level. Absolutely nothing to help during combat. I am immune to fear and disease, which are both nice, any ally within 10 ft gains a +4 vs. fear, if we were in a 4 player game I'd be pissed about that, since that means in order to gain that bonus the party has to cluster so close together that we'd get hit with every area effect spell imaginable, but since there are only 2 of us, it works since we are usually walking side by side anyways. Other than immunities that may or may not ever even come up I got nothing. After seeing myself miss so much I took weapon focus as my level 3 feat, I hadn't planned on taking it till much later, if at all, but since I have no strength bonus, I need that masterwork bonus of mine and the weapon focus bonus to finally have a decent to hit. When I get my next level I'll put my bonus point to strength and finally have a damage bonus and my to hit will go up by two points that level. So yeah, my lay on hands now heals 3 hp per use, I still have 4 uses, that's 12 hp a day, I have 37 hp. The knight has 40. Yeah lay on hands continues to be a dissapointing suckfest that only gets used out of combat. I don't get another smite till next level and after 3 sessions I have still not seen it be worth its per day status, I can definitely not think of what person thought that it was so powerful that you shouldn't get a 2nd till 4th level. If I at least had my Cha bonus worth +1 I'd have 4 a day and I might enjoy it a little more since I could've used it on the mook and the BBEG instead of just the mook to get past being sickened.

I cannot stress this enough in play, Paladin smite and lay on hands need work please do not think these abilities are worthwile, are they useless, no, are they useful enough to their limited status, no. Either we need more uses of both, or we need them strengthened. I'm hoping you'll add more uses to smite and beef up lay on hands. If lay on hands was level x2 then I'd be healing 6 hp, that at least is a single hit at this level, not great, but by no means the suckfest that healing 3 as a standard action. Hell or you could turn it into a swift action for 3 hp, it's still weak then, but at least it would be usable in combat. Still of all the fixes for lay on hands, I like having level x2 best.

Sovereign Court

Oh and by the way, please reintroduce the alternating background colors on the charts I had been using my pick as a d8 damage all this time, just yesterday I noticed that I had accidentally taken the longswords damage when I was looking at the single colored chart, I never screwed that up with the 3.5 PH because those different color lines made it easy to see which # was to which weapon, loosing those possible 2 extra damage hurt, a LOT.


Good report man. Sorry to see that things did not work out to well but I think you played it like a true paladin!

Question...what does BBEG mean? :(

To let you know I have been working on a post that I am going to put into the play test forum for paladin on Monday. I listed you and Robert as people who I talked about the paladin class a lot with because I did not want to take any credit I do not deserve. I went over a lot of the ideas that all of us talked about here. When I post it please add to it with the experiences you have had in your playtests :)

Thanx again for the report.

Sovereign Court

Big Bad Evil Guy

Sure I'll post in your thread, Is it a playtest report? if not I would really prefer to wait for him to open up the paladin design forum (I just don't think its good to rush Jason when he already has a full load in front of him).


no no, thats what I meant...the official paladin thread opens on monday (Sept 29). I am going to wait to post it then.

I can not playtest the ideas with my group but a friend of mine and I have been running some numbers in some scenarios and I think everything that you, Robert, me and the others that contributed in this thread work great.

Basically i tried to focus on the way the paladin currently stands and how to fix the most pressing issues that we talked about. Smite being paramount among those. Then I dubbed the always on "smiting" effect that we decided would work better if it was just a completely different ability: Lightbringer.

I will probably start 2 threads, one that address the paladin as a whole and one that specifically focuses on Smite, that is where I feel the problem is. Like you said, who in their right mind thought that this ability was so powerful that it should be limited to 1 a day and then take so many levels to get ONE more use...shame :(

Sovereign Court

Vult Wrathblades wrote:
no no, thats what I meant...the official paladin thread opens on monday (Sept 29). I am going to wait to post it then.

Oh cool, yeah I'll be posting there, hell you can go ahead and add a link to my playtest report so that he can read up on it and see where the ideas were generated, I'm probably going to make a new playtest thread, this one has gotten so long that I think people try to stay out of it cause they don't want to read through 5 pages to get the playtest. In fact I think I may just do that and let this thread die.

Vult Wrathblades wrote:


Basically i tried to focus on the way the paladin currently stands and how to fix the most pressing issues that we talked about. Smite being paramount among those. Then I dubbed the always on "smiting" effect that we decided would work better if it was just a completely different ability: Lightbringer.

Kool I can't wait to see how it turns out.

Vult Wrathblades wrote:


I will probably start 2 threads, one that address the paladin as a whole and one that specifically focuses on Smite, that is where I feel the problem is. Like you said, who in their right mind thought that this ability was so powerful that it should be limited to 1 a day and then take so many levels to get ONE more use...shame :(

Yeah I wouldn't even have a problem if it was 1 per level per day, but that isn't backwards compatable since you then have to add abilities to make up for the idea that the extra smite you get is worth being that levels ability *rolls eyes*


Yea, I hope you and Robert both spend as much time posting as we all did here. The paladin needs some attention and I think the changes that we have come up with in your thread REALLY help fix him. I think Jason really listens to the players from what I have read so far, so I have hope that what we have worked on will be well received!

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