Halfling hedge wizards and rogues are all the arguement you need for the +2 Int, It can just be interpreted to mean that thay are skillful, and pick up new tricks more easily, which frankly fits in with halflings perfectly, the meaning of statistics is mutable, so why glue int to the traditional academic view.
Love the new gnomes, first time I've ever liked the race.
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Add me to the pool that would be happy with +2 Int (or) +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Str. I think the +Con bonus is hard to explain except from a comedy perspective (see fireball example earlier). To me, the +Cha bonus really needs to stay, I'd just shift the +Con bonus around.
I like the +Cha because of the fey connection. That makes perfect sence to me.
I can see an argument for the +Int or the +Wis. To me these could easily be done as sub-races. (Maybe a "options" side panel in the book?)
The only reason i see the +Con working is because of the +Physical/+Mental stat balance. Con simply helps keep it from stepping on the halfing's Dex toes, and making no sence from the Str side. It does lead to comical visions at times.
Just adding my 2cp in here.
It's a good idea to not think about balance but about "design" : -2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Cha seems verry good to me : i prefere a real gnome flavour : smart, charismatic ... than hardy !
More : apply the same think to half orc.
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
Honestly lets discribe characteristics we attribute to gnomes. Smart, clever, friendly, agile, curious, crafty, loyal, etc....I could go on for awhile but honestly, tough, robust, enduring, etc....really wouldnt top that list or heck I would never even put them on that list.Even in older editions of D&D when gnomes were linked/related to dwarves. They were refered to as smaller less hardy cousins of dwarves and never recieved a Con modifier.
Just say G-No to Con!
Sorry, I must disagree.
Considering gnomes are fey creatures with a strong association with elemental Earth, rather than more ethereal or ephemral concepts, I'm fine with a con bonus. I have little trouble believing earth sprites as being tough little guys. Remember your Paracelsus.
I vote yes on G-Con!
And what about the svirfnebelin ?
I will pass from 3.5 to Pathfinder, and a friend play a deep gnome : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin
What do you think about keep the classe but change LA from +3 to +2 ?
Because the Pathfinder races are +1 equivalent ?
I like whats been done with all the races.
Although halflings getting a +2 Int makes more sense to me.
They have to be able to think quickly to get out of trouble don't they?
Could you think about adding other races or at least saying in the beta(or what ever is going to be the final book) that you can play certain other races? Like gnolls, kobolds, and possible aasimar and tieflings?
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Change the elf bonus from Int to Cha. They still have a fey connection, like the gnomes, and are always described as physically attractive. Personal magnetism fits, and one would imagine they would certainly have strong personalities with such long lifespans. (I like the idea of innately magical elves, you could also change favored class from wizard to sorcerer, though this isn’t strictly necessary.)
It's been months, and I'm still rabidly in support of this.
I don't have the slightest clue what WotC was thinking when they made Wizard the favored class of Elves, when they have always been described as innately magical, making them the perfect class to have either Sorcerer or Bard as their favored class (and even looking down their noses at Human and Dwarven wizards, reading from their silly spell books, *forgetting* their spells after they cast them, those poor talentless schmucks...).
It's like they sat around thinking, 'Well *someone* has to have Wizard as favored class, and elves used to be fighter/magic-users...' but this strange 'logic' didn't seem to carry over to Clerics, who don't have any favored class races.
I'd be very much in favor of something like;
Gnomes - +2 Con, +2 Int (clever tricksters), -2 Str
Elves - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (mysterious and beautiful), -2 Con
Halflings - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (likable and gregarious), -2 Str
Dwarves - +2 Con, +2 Wis (strong-minded and determined), -2 Dex
Half-Orcs - +2 Str, +2 Wis (keen-senses, primal), -2 Int
Humans - +2 Any
Change the elf bonus from Int to Cha. They still have a fey connection, like the gnomes, and are always described as physically attractive. Personal magnetism fits, and one would imagine they would certainly have strong personalities with such long lifespans. (I like the idea of innately magical elves, you could also change favored class from wizard to sorcerer, though this isn’t strictly necessary.)It's been months, and I'm still rabidly in support of this.
I don't have the slightest clue what WotC was thinking when they made Wizard the favored class of Elves, when they have always been described as innately magical, making them the perfect class to have either Sorcerer or Bard as their favored class (and even looking down their noses at Human and Dwarven wizards, reading from their silly spell books, *forgetting* their spells after they cast them, those poor talentless schmucks...).
It's like they sat around thinking, 'Well *someone* has to have Wizard as favored class, and elves used to be fighter/magic-users...' but this strange 'logic' didn't seem to carry over to Clerics, who don't have any favored class races.
I'd be very much in favor of something like;
<snip>
I'd like to suggest a change in Favoured classes too:
Gnomes - +2 Con, +2 Int (clever tricksters), -2 Str ; Rogue, Sorcerer
Elves - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (mysterious and beautiful), -2 Con ; Fighter, Sorcerer
Halflings - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (likable and gregarious), -2 Str ; Rogue, Bard
Dwarves - +2 Con, +2 Wis (strong-minded and determined), -2 Dex ; Fighter, Cleric
Half-Orcs - +2 Str, +2 Wis (keen-senses, primal), -2 Int ; Brabarian, Druid
Humans - +2 Any
/me grumbles about post freezing after a fixed time instead of after a reply,
the fav at elves in the post above ought to be Ranger, as it is in the book
It's like they sat around thinking, 'Well *someone* has to have Wizard as favored class, and elves used to be fighter/magic-users...' but this strange 'logic' didn't seem to carry over to Clerics, who don't have any favored class races.
personally I think that those classes depending on lerning lots (Wizards) or generally being versatile (Bard) should not be made the favoured class of any race but Humans.
after all, humans got 'versatile' and 'quick learners' written all over then..
ever since 3.5 I'm peeved at dumping the Bard on the Gnome as favoured class, giving then Sorcerer was a good improvement
IMO giving Rogue to both small races would be a good compensation for the smaller weapon size and -2 on STR.
especially with this in the book:
their passions tend toward invention, alchemy, or other technical pursuits
the term 'Locksmith' springs to mind
plus I'd limit the favoured Sorcerer to Fey bloodline as a sort of match to the the 3.0 limit to Illusionist (sort of way backwards compatibility)
gnomes are linked to the fey that inhabit the quiet corners of the world
When did Gnomes become Fey? Gnome = Fey, really???
They have always had a fey element to them, even in first edition, speaking to burrowing animals and such.
Speaking of 1st edition - that is really what makes the Gnome Con bonus work for me - they had (about) the same factors playing off their Con as Dwarves did (bonuses vs. poison and spells, etc.) That, along with being Illusionists, made them feel like Dwarves, boiled down to the hard-nosed magical core.
I would say though that I think the ... chaos of gnomes, would lend them to being the exception to the five races fixed stat bonuses. Giving them "pick two of the three: Con, Int, Cha" or "Con + Int or Cha" would probably work pretty well (I get some of the arguments for +Wis, but Gnomes have always seemed the most foolish/mischievous of the races).
Would it make them too strong as a race though? They're already pretty darn popular.
Would it make them too strong as a race though? They're already pretty darn popular.
????? What ?????
Actually I agree, gnomes are rather popular.
Would it make them too strong as a race though? They're already pretty darn popular.
it's the Prestidigitation/1Day I guess:
no matter how much s!+@ the GM throws at me during the game, at the end of the day I'm clean and smelling of roseswhich adds another point to the comic like feel pointed out earlier :-)
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Gnomes - +2 Con, +2 Int (clever tricksters), -2 Str ; Rogue, Sorcerer
Elves - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (mysterious and beautiful), -2 Con ; Fighter, Sorcerer
Halflings - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (likable and gregarious), -2 Str ; Rogue, Bard
Dwarves - +2 Con, +2 Wis (strong-minded and determined), -2 Dex ; Fighter, Cleric
Half-Orcs - +2 Str, +2 Wis (keen-senses, primal), -2 Int ; Brabarian, Druid
Humans - +2 Any
Since 3rd edition came out, I've pretty much always thought that Elves were archetypal Bards. Skilled in swordplay and archery, incredibly skillful, innately magical, known for their ultra-light chainmail and said to life lives of grace, beauty and art.
But giving one of the most popular D&D races the arguably least popular D&D class as Favored Class would probably have led to a revolution in the streets.
So, since they had decided that Gnomes were the least popular race, they strapped Bard on to them instead, in a mad attempt to create a vortex of suck that would destroy both the race and the class. And, as of 4th edition, it appears that their sinister plan worked...
Gnomes - +2 Con, +2 Int (clever tricksters), -2 Str ; Rogue, Sorcerer
Elves - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (mysterious and beautiful), -2 Con ; Fighter, Sorcerer
Halflings - +2 Dex, +2 Cha (likable and gregarious), -2 Str ; Rogue, Bard
Dwarves - +2 Con, +2 Wis (strong-minded and determined), -2 Dex ; Fighter, Cleric
Half-Orcs - +2 Str, +2 Wis (keen-senses, primal), -2 Int ; Brabarian, Druid
Humans - +2 AnySince 3rd edition came out, I've pretty much always thought that Elves were archetypal Bards. Skilled in swordplay and archery, incredibly skillful, innately magical, known for their ultra-light chainmail and said to life lives of grace, beauty and art.
But giving one of the most popular D&D races the arguably least popular D&D class as Favored Class would probably have led to a revolution in the streets.
So, since they had decided that Gnomes were the least popular race, they strapped Bard on to them instead, in a mad attempt to create a vortex of suck that would destroy both the race and the class. And, as of 4th edition, it appears that their sinister plan worked...
those MONSTERS!!!!!!!! *Sneaksy's eye widen with horror*