My parents introduced my daughter to the Never Ending Story yesterday while they were watching her while I was at work. SHE LOVED IT!!! So she asked me to put it on this morning. For those that have forgotten (myself included until earlier this morning) the main villian is a force called "The Nothing." It represents how people are taking less and less time for imaginative things and focusing more on real world things.
Sound familiar? People keep saying that the RPG industry is dying because people are playing WoW or what not. Meanwhile D&D 4E PHB is currently #668. Compare that to one of Mongoose's best sellers, Traveller, that currently is #182,218 or The South Beach Diet, #471.
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?
My parents introduced my daughter to the Never Ending Story yesterday while they were watching her while I was at work. SHE LOVED IT!!! So she asked me to put it on this morning. For those that have forgotten (myself included until earlier this morning) the main villian is a force called "The Nothing." It represents how people are taking less and less time for imaginative things and focusing more on real world things.
Sound familiar? People keep saying that the RPG industry is dying because people are playing WoW or what not. Meanwhile D&D 4E PHB is currently #668. Compare that to one of Mongoose's best sellers, Traveller, that currently is #182,218 or The South Beach Diet, #471.
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?
It is possible that they say that because of 4E.
Also, though we are not losing gamers that quickly, we are not gaining many new gamers.I'm not sure I agree with that, but that could be the reason.
I don't think fantasy is dying, but I do feel that tabletop RPGs are on the way out. Most of us learned to play when they were hot, in the early 80's. Now we're in our mid to late 30's and can't seem to grasp why it's so hard to find players.
In Victorian times, you'd visit friends and everyone would sit silently and sip sherry while the oldest daughter played the piano. That sort of entertainment has, thankfully, been replaced by the TV and DVD (I've had to sit through amateur piano playing before and the thought of doing it for hours is NOT relaxing). Tabletop RPGs are, unfortunately, going the same way.
As I understand it, the economy has hit the RPG industry hard. Of course, that is second hand information. I see no lack of new role playing systems and, at least in my area, gaming shops.
The industry may be uncertain, but there seems to be plenty of warriors for the cause still carrying the banner.
The industry may be uncertain, but there seems to be plenty of warriors for the cause still carrying the banner.
Are there? Or have most of the potential recruits gone the way of MMOs?
I have no data to back up my arguments, so we can just save time and I will say you are right. But why is there like a new indie game coming out every week? Why did a gaming store open up about six months ago? Especially since there are at least two already well established stores within range?
I have no data to back up my arguments, so we can just save time and I will say you are right. But why is there like a new indie game coming out every week? Why did a gaming store open up about six months ago? Especially since there are at least two already well established stores within range?
I have very little data myself. :( But, I have been suffering huge difficulties finding and recruiting players that are younger then 30 or so.
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I don't think fantasy is dying, but I do feel that tabletop RPGs are on the way out. Most of us learned to play when they were hot, in the early 80's. Now we're in our mid to late 30's and can't seem to grasp why it's so hard to find players.
In Victorian times, you'd visit friends and everyone would sit silently and sip sherry while the oldest daughter played the piano. That sort of entertainment has, thankfully, been replaced by the TV and DVD (I've had to sit through amateur piano playing before and the thought of doing it for hours is NOT relaxing). Tabletop RPGs are, unfortunately, going the same way.
It's not just RPGs. This pretty much applies to anything that is not computer related. Bridge, always considered more of a game for seniors, is fading. Even fishing and hunting. It's very difficult to pry a kid away from their gameboy or cell phone to do something social face to face. They have become used to interacting with friends indirectly. Thay have friends that live on another continent.
Tabletop RPGs will pretty much die out in about 30 years when the 30 somethings who started playing in the 80s begin to die off. Meanwhile Virtual tabletop replacements might flourish and take over the industry.
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I have no data to back up my arguments, so we can just save time and I will say you are right. But why is there like a new indie game coming out every week? Why did a gaming store open up about six months ago? Especially since there are at least two already well established stores within range?I have very little data myself. :( But, I have been suffering huge difficulties finding and recruiting players that are younger then 30 or so.
I'm the opposite, I recently met about a dozen people ranging from 15-21 who're playing 3.5 and a little 4E. I got them excited about Pathfinder so they are waiting to see the new rules as well.
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I'm the opposite, I recently met about a dozen people ranging from 15-21 who're playing 3.5 and a little 4E. I got them excited about Pathfinder so they are waiting to see the new rules as well.
I've found the same. There is a small but healthy population of gamers in the North Country, and most of them are relatively new.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The RPG "industry" is in trouble because the retail stores are in trouble. Also, the boom in Pokemon led to a lot of hobby distributor consolidation, meaning fewer and fewer people at the "middle man" stage are able to decide to give a product a shot. ALSO, the boom in products like Pokemon, Hero Clix, and even Magic the Gathering changed distributors from people who actively tried to sell product to stores into folks who merely take and fulfill orders for the new hotness.
And the new hotness hasn't been an RPG since the d20 boom, which left a lot of retailers with dead stock, which put them in an even tighter financial bind.
In the meantime, in order to survive, a lot of RPG publishers are exploiting new technology like PDFs and the like, and many have direct stores on their websites.
This cuts retailers out of the picture, which puts them in even more of a bind.
Rinse and repeat until the whole bloody thing goes down the drain.
--Erik
PS: We're doing great, btw.
PS: We're doing great, btw.
And that's all that matters in my books.
The industry may be uncertain, but there seems to be plenty of warriors for the cause still carrying the banner.Are there? Or have most of the potential recruits gone the way of MMOs?
I don't see why so many people find the two to be incompatible. I play both. I know many people who play both.
The RPG "industry" is in trouble because the retail stores are in trouble. Also, the boom in Pokemon led to a lot of hobby distributor consolidation, meaning fewer and fewer people at the "middle man" stage are able to decide to give a product a shot. ALSO, the boom in products like Pokemon, Hero Clix, and even Magic the Gathering changed distributors from people who actively tried to sell product to stores into folks who merely take and fulfill orders for the new hotness.
And the new hotness hasn't been an RPG since the d20 boom, which left a lot of retailers with dead stock, which put them in an even tighter financial bind.
In the meantime, in order to survive, a lot of RPG publishers are exploiting new technology like PDFs and the like, and many have direct stores on their websites.
This cuts retailers out of the picture, which puts them in even more of a bind.
Rinse and repeat until the whole bloody thing goes down the drain.
--Erik
PS: We're doing great, btw.
Erik Mona. Keeping s$~+ real in the '08!
I don't see why so many people find the two to be incompatible. I play both. I know many people who play both.The industry may be uncertain, but there seems to be plenty of warriors for the cause still carrying the banner.Are there? Or have most of the potential recruits gone the way of MMOs?
[/Rant On]
The reason are time & imagination.Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.
Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
Related to the imagination issue above, is that Computer games are vastly more limited in what things players can do to solve problems. Many ideas, such as improvising a weapon or using terrain are simply not supported by the game's code
[/Rant Off]
Tinfoil hats were on sale this week.
Never buy a tinfoil hat. Always make your own.
Insider’s information
That explains all the indie stuff.
I would be very sad to see RPGs go the way of Rick Astley’s career.
Haven't we already had this conversation twice in as many weeks?And?
SB just misses the Edition Wars.
SB just misses the Edition Wars.Haven't we already had this conversation twice in as many weeks?And?
The Edition Wars are not over!
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Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
False and false again.
False and false again.
Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
Please expand on your statement. :D
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Please expand on your statement. :DFalse and false again.
Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
I would have before, but I had to go.
I play MMOs, as do many of my friends, and we all manage to balance video gaming with tabletop gaming with social lives. While this may not be true for everyone, I feel your first statement is too general.I also do not think playing MMOs affect my level of imagination.
Please expand on your statement. :DFalse and false again.
Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
I would have before, but I had to go.
I play MMOs, as do many of my friends, and we all manage to balance video gaming with tabletop gaming with social lives. While this may not be true for everyone, I feel your first statement is too general.
I also do not think playing MMOs affect my level of imagination.
The fact that you can't imagine that it has affected your imagination goes to prove the detrimental effect it has had upon your imagination! Or... am I imagining things?
Time spent on the computer is time not spend enjoying social activities. And MMOs are adictive enough to demand large amount of the player's time.Also, MMO players have gotten used to having the results of someone else's imagination fed to them. It is like the difference between reading a book and watching the same story on a movie screen. MMO players do not have the same level of mental engagement.
False and false again.
Please expand on your statement. :D
I would have before, but I had to go.
I play MMOs, as do many of my friends, and we all manage to balance video gaming with tabletop gaming with social lives. While this may not be true for everyone, I feel your first statement is too general.
I also do not think playing MMOs affect my level of imagination.
You are correct. My first statement is too broad. I have seen it happen all too often (such as with myself).
My second statement is like the first. :( It is also too broad, but follows from both my own experience and observations of others.
Never gonna say goodbye.I would be very sad to see RPGs go the way of Rick Astley’s career.I swear, RPGs, I'm never gonna give you up.
Never gonna tell a lie... and hurt you.
I come for intelligent discussion. And I get Rick rolled... thanks. ;)
Social interactions vs. the web. The cornerstone of tabletop vs. the immediate gratification of MMO.
I see it in my children and my nieces/nephews. The digital world cuts into their face to face time with friends. Doesn't eliminate it but it does cut into it.
My wife sees in in the schools (grade school) as well. Kids aren't learning to get along with other kids nearly as well. Being a part of a group somehow means that you are less of an individual. It's easier to retreat into your own world because it's less challenging. Overload of stimulation, etc. Bad news.
FRPG is about community. What was normal for us growing up has to be learned, and appreciated, by the younger generation later on in life.
I live outside a large city. The neighborhoods I grew up in are pretty rare in the suburbs. As parents we try to encourage our children to look for those things, but it's a battle against the speed of the current world.
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I don't think fantasy is dying, but I do feel that tabletop RPGs are on the way out. Most of us learned to play when they were hot, in the early 80's. Now we're in our mid to late 30's and can't seem to grasp why it's so hard to find players.
In Victorian times, you'd visit friends and everyone would sit silently and sip sherry while the oldest daughter played the piano. That sort of entertainment has, thankfully, been replaced by the TV and DVD (I've had to sit through amateur piano playing before and the thought of doing it for hours is NOT relaxing). Tabletop RPGs are, unfortunately, going the same way.
And here we were all hoping to get your daughter liquored up on brandy and snuff enough that she would play the Piano and tell us about your investment in that Whitestar Cruiseship named the Titanic and how you would make five hundred pounds and buy your wife that T-Model Ford she is looking for.
Being a part of a group somehow means that you are less of an individual.
I believe this country was heading down the individualism path long before video games.
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Fantasy isn't dying, it's evolving. I don't think that MMO's are going to replace tabletop RPG's for the plain and simple fact that if you play the game you love (my choice is 3.P right now), you will want to teach it to others and keep it alive. More and more of my little sister's friends (15-18 yo) are coming to are coming to her and asking her if I will run a D&D game for them b/c their WoW/Evercrack game is becoming stale.
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You are correct. My first statement is too broad. I have seen it happen all too often (such as with myself).
My second statement is like the first. :( It is also too broad, but follows from both my own experience and observations of others.
Unfortunately you made those statements on the internet. This always draws the 'exception to the rule' out to debunk your statement with a claim that you have no idea what you are talking about because they know a couple people who break the idea set forth. Now if you tried to make a claim that a majority of ______ is ________ way blah, blah, blah, then you would have had a response of "post a link to the study that proves this". People like to assume that whatever they and their friends are into is what the majority of people are into, whether it is regarding hobbies, houserules to game systems or whatever, and they tend to respond in the aforementioned manner 73.26% of the time according to this study done by the Department of Mental Acclimation.
People need to realize that they are playing RPGS, a fringe activity, not...well, whatever the normal, vanilla people do, and that not all of the stuff we do is the norm. Sometimes our own limited groups do things on the fringe of what most RPGers do. If you need a study to prove it then here is one.
Personally I prefer this performance.
Being a part of a group somehow means that you are less of an individual.I believe this country was heading down the individualism path long before video games.
Definitely. The much romaticized '60s.
Being a part of a group somehow means that you are less of an individual.I believe this country was heading down the individualism path long before video games.
One of the thing I have witnessed in my students is the claim or belief that they are individuals, but they are unable to make a decision or have an opinion without knowing what someone else or (more frequently) the larger group thinks. Now, some may that peer pressure has always been that way, but I think it comes from something different.
I think we encourage our kids to become individuals separate from a group as a whole before they have an understanding of their place in a group or the role of groups in society. I think humans need to know what they are breaking away from before they actually break away.
I think this ties into the perception that "fantasy is dying" because the many fantasy stories and fantasy games center around an otherwise normal person breaking away from the norm and learning about themself on the way. Think Sam & Frodo, Han & Luke, the Companions of the Lance from DragonLance, Conan, Robin Hood; they start off as members of a group or community (albeit often talented members of the group/community) who learn to use their gifts to become exceptional over time. I think this element of fantasy is what is fading.
I do think part of what is adding to this is the faux belief that online chatting or texting or mmorpging is equivalent to face-to-face interaction. It's not. We should all be able to do both, and I see many of my students are increasingly less able to do so.
My parents introduced my daughter to the Never Ending Story yesterday while they were watching her while I was at work. SHE LOVED IT!!! So she asked me to put it on this morning. For those that have forgotten (myself included until earlier this morning) the main villian is a force called "The Nothing." It represents how people are taking less and less time for imaginative things and focusing more on real world things.
Sound familiar? People keep saying that the RPG industry is dying because people are playing WoW or what not. Meanwhile D&D 4E PHB is currently #668. Compare that to one of Mongoose's best sellers, Traveller, that currently is #182,218 or The South Beach Diet, #471.
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?
I'd blame computer gaming, however the advent of PS3 may reverse this trend because of the expense and the reduction in available spending money (well at least in the UK).
However back in the 80's we had the d&d cartoon series, in the next two decades we had even more tv series such as the dark knight (think Ivanhoe meets the druids with a prince john styled nemesis) and of course the Lord of the Rings trilogy however some fans think Peter Jackson has altered from the books, of course there's the d&d movie and by that I mean the second one since the first was a little too weak given what it had to match.
Now if only WOTC could release a new version of the d&d cartoon series or even a mini series like it was suggested somewhere on the sci fi channel site.
Has anyone watched Louie the Rune Soldier or Sorceror Hunters or even Orphen?
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?
Where did you even get this idea from?? I had never heard this until you said it.
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?Where did you even get this idea from?? I had never heard this until you said it.
Where the idea comes from, and I think as some validity, is that we are not bringing enough young people into RGP Gaming. :(
(The fact that, unlike computer gaming, it helps stimulate interest in reading, math, mythology & history - and science for SCI-FI games - is a side benefit.)
People keep saying the RPG industry is dying? Why is that? I don't get it?
I don't think it is dying, just evolving.
RPGs are now concentrated in the MMORPG scene. That is the 'hot' medium, and it will only increase as bandwith and improving progams allow better and better simulations.
I liken it to the advent of TV. TV is a much more accessible medium that books, so more people watch TV than read. Books will never go away, but they aren't as popular as they were pre-TV. Pen and Paper games will never go away, but they will never be the 'hot' medium again. It just can't compete with the simple log in and play of a MMORPG.
That being said, the popularity of MMORPGs would argue that RPGs are more popular than ever. I have talked to folks I went to high school and college with who would never have been caught dead with a D&D book in their hands that run 70th-level characters in WoW. It's a paradigm shift.
Also, I feel the advent of the Internet has made P&P RPGs a much more interesting field. I NEVER thought D&D was particularly popular. I know it wasn't in my neck of the woods. Since posting here I have met many more gamers than I ever have in real life.
The drama queen in me dies a little every time someone calls a computer game a role playing game.
The drama queen in me dies a little every time someone calls a computer game a role playing game.
Well, in that case ...