I frequent several boards and noted many Paizo and Pathfinder threads. I've noted a marked change of tone of late, a growing hostility. They question Paizo's business practices to continue to support the 3.x system via OGL and the PfRPG. And there are a few new twists (to me, that is):
1) Companies can, apparently, support 4E products without going GSL (e.g., Kenzer, Redbrick, Goodman Games, etc.) and Paizo should so the same
2) Paizo should "grow some balls" and create a new rpg.
Has anyone else who frequents other boards noted the same as well?
Yeah, another one of the reasons I do not frequent the boards as often (I'm waiting for the rabid bunnies to die down (off?)....)
I find it really silly, actually. It almost makes it obvious that EVERYONE, I mean, EVERYONE, realizes that there are some serious flaws and shortcomings with 4th edition and now it seems that only way to guarantee that the system stays alive is to throw stones at the competitive system... not sit down nicely and compare a fine blend of ideas, but rather throw stones.
Ahh well, I have a good feeling that with 8 years of supplemental books already sitting around, as I consider 3.0 also compat. with Pathfinder, Paizo's rpg should enjoy a good lifespan.
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I've noted a marked change of tone of late, a growing hostility.
I have actually seen very few vs. Paizo. But...
While not trying to be snarky, the ones I have seen sound like heaving panic as folks who threw out everything to go headlong into 4e are now not "enjoying life like never before" and are now trying to justify their purchases. :-)
-DM Jeff
Why, just the other day, my friends all spontaneously told me that they didn't want to play D&D 3.5, despite it being the most successful tabletop rpg to date (and not, as you may note, a universal system like Gurps and Heroes, which apparently revolutionized gaming), because they all wanted to play different universal systems!
Now, now, Sebastian. You know, I know, we all know your friends just don't want to play with you. Universal systems? Just an excuse.
:)
My army of poodles has been training for this day. For victory and happiness my beautiful hordes!Oh, be careful dude. You're stepping on Courtfool's manicured nails there. Don't want him to got all poodle fu on yo ass!The point is, having one system that could emulate many, if not all, game generas was a boon to everyone.There is only room on these forums for one Hero fanslave! Be gone, impudent cur.
Try this one out: Strange Workout
That was some crazy bidness, with the poodles, and that strangest one.
Goddamn poodles! Sin against the natural world, if you ask me. Them critters just ain't right!
The whole point (well not the whole point, but a by product that has become sort of a main point) of the OGL/d20 System is that companies can use the OGL/d20 System to create their own Lisenced games.
That is incorrect. IRC, the whole point of the OGL was to outsource things like adventure modules to 3PP (Dungeon Crawl Classics is a perfect example) and to allow for community improvements to the 3.5 rules system (kind of like UNIX). Unfortunately, all it did was allow 3PPs like Paizo to create their own derivative game systems and become competitors using WotC's own product. In that light, the 4E GSL is a perfectly understandable response. - Once bitten, twice shy
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The 4e folks who are getting nervous about Pathfinders' persistence and forward momentum are on to something and crying in their beer for a reason - 4e is in trouble out of the gate and Pathfinder is moving up fast. Wotc is either unaware of this, unwilling to acknowledge it or unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Probably a combination.That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I was at the 4e anouncement at Gen Con last year. During the film there was alot of "WTF?" going on and at the end there was alot of boing. Not some, but alot. Bill S. and company beat a hasty retreat at the end.
There was alot of grumbling after that. RPGA members running games just didn't show up because they felt like they were ambushed.
WOTC stumbled out of the starting gate when they revoked the licences, and failed to get thier stride at the launch. Only time will tell if they can get thier pace back.
Funny, I was at that announcement too, and I don't remember any booing. I heard a lot of applause and on occasion a lot of silence. But no booing. I attended only because I knew they were making the announcement. I supported the concept of a 4E. 3.x needed a lot of work done. Unfortunately, what they did was not what I wanted, so I don't play 4E. I will play 3.P however, since that is what I wanted to begin with.
I frequent several boards and noted many Paizo and Pathfinder threads. I've noted a marked change of tone of late, a growing hostility. They question Paizo's business practices to continue to support the 3.x system via OGL and the PfRPG. And there are a few new twists (to me, that is):
1) Companies can, apparently, support 4E products without going GSL (e.g., Kenzer, Redbrick, Goodman Games, etc.) and Paizo should so the same
2) Paizo should "grow some balls" and create a new rpg.
Has anyone else who frequents other boards noted the same as well?
I honestly don't understand why anyone would get hostile about it. If Paizo wants to do what they are doing why should anyone give a crap about it and get hostile. Pathfinder is a gutsy move and I'm glad that Paizo is doing it. Time will tell whether it's a good decision or not.
Seriously, those folks should just stfu. Why do they care?
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Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
Rifts is not a universal system. Rifts is the bastard child of 1st edition D&D. The only people who enjoy Rifts are munchkins, smurfs, and me.
The poodle workout disturbs me.Jane Fonda Workout Disturbs me more!
Clearly, they were training to come to NY.
The poodle workout disturbs me.
Who cares for the poodles? Workout disturbes me!
*Burbs and grabs another bag of junk food*
That is incorrect. IRC, the whole point of the OGL was to outsource things like adventure modules to 3PP (Dungeon Crawl Classics is a perfect example) and to allow for community improvements to the 3.5 rules system (kind of like UNIX). Unfortunately, all it did was allow 3PPs like Paizo to create their own derivative game systems and become competitors using WotC's own product. In that light, the 4E GSL is a perfectly understandable response. - Once bitten, twice shy
Sure. Problem is that particular genie is already out of the bottle. Paizo wouldn't have created Pathfinder if they had had any faith in WotC to deliver on a 3PP-friendly environment with 4E. WotC can craft the GSL, and it is their right, their ball, their IP. The problem is the OGL is out there, it's irrevocable, and I think that a lot of 3PPs prefer a no-strings-attached license.
My personal prediction is the WotC will do just fine with 4E, D&D will chug along as always. The OGL crowd, however will remain free to develop edgy, thought-provoking game products that will appeal to those of us who prefer a gripping storyline more than streamlined combat. I think in years to come there will be an OGL renaissance with many creative, yet commercially minor 3PPs being able to contribute to the open platform model.
Many of us gamers (myself included) will never publish professionally, but we have ideas we'd love to see vetted and commented upon, perhaps contributing to the robustness of the system as a whole. That's the magic of OGL.
No need for hostility against anyone, there is plenty of gaming love for all. Don't be a hater, be a celebrater!
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Funny, I was at that announcement too, and I don't remember any booing. I heard a lot of applause and on occasion a lot of silence. But no booing. I attended only because I knew they were making the announcement. I supported the concept of a 4E. 3.x needed a lot of work done. Unfortunately, what they did was not what I wanted, so I don't play 4E. I will play 3.P however, since that is what I wanted to begin with.The 4e folks who are getting nervous about Pathfinders' persistence and forward momentum are on to something and crying in their beer for a reason - 4e is in trouble out of the gate and Pathfinder is moving up fast. Wotc is either unaware of this, unwilling to acknowledge it or unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Probably a combination.That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I was at the 4e anouncement at Gen Con last year. During the film there was alot of "WTF?" going on and at the end there was alot of boing. Not some, but alot. Bill S. and company beat a hasty retreat at the end.
There was alot of grumbling after that. RPGA members running games just didn't show up because they felt like they were ambushed.
WOTC stumbled out of the starting gate when they revoked the licences, and failed to get thier stride at the launch. Only time will tell if they can get thier pace back.
How could you not hear any booing? ( I just reread this and it sounds snarky. I'm not trying to sond like this. I am curious if you sat somewhere or left early????) I was being interviewed by a web blog and they asked me to stop because they wanted to record the booing going on. I had to stop for 3 to 5 minutes before they would let me continue. I have to admit I was prepared for grumbling, I wasn't prepared for actual booing so I was taken aback about that.
(And just to be clear, the booing happened at the end, it didn't happen all the way through. If I made it sound like it was the case, I was wrong to do so.)
Now to be perfectly honest I didn't poll everyone there who booed. Many of them could have been there to just be griefers/trolls. Some of them might have been honestly upset but have now have moved on and are playing 4e. Some of them might not have gotten over it and have moved on to other games or have decided to stick with what they have. But I do remember the ruckus at the end.
I really don't have an axe to grind against WOTC. I can see where they have the right and the reason to what they see is a better game, but I all so have seen how they have made lapses in judgement. I someone wants to play 4e, more power to them. I assume that I will get into a 4e game sometime in the future, its just no the game I'm going to spend any money more than I have. (I have the core set.) And it's no the game I'm going to run, for now and the forseeable future.
I all so don't feel like the people at WOTC/Hasbro are bad/unsmart/mean people. I just feel like mistakes were made and we all have to live with them. And for many of us that means we have a home here at Paizo playing Pathfinder.
CEO
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Don't go. You just got here. We're going to get some popcorn and beer before the Lisa vs Shelly match starts (GO LISA!). I think Heathy's got a really nice HD Tv we can watch it on.
WARNING: Watching Lisa in a bra and panties match will require a DC55 Sanity check, DC75 if you are watching in HD. Seriously, you really don't want that. :) You have been warned!
-Lisa
The whole point (well not the whole point, but a by product that has become sort of a main point) of the OGL/d20 System is that companies can use the OGL/d20 System to create their own Lisenced games.That is incorrect. IRC, the whole point of the OGL was to outsource things like adventure modules to 3PP (Dungeon Crawl Classics is a perfect example) and to allow for community improvements to the 3.5 rules system (kind of like UNIX). Unfortunately, all it did was allow 3PPs like Paizo to create their own derivative game systems and become competitors using WotC's own product. In that light, the 4E GSL is a perfectly understandable response. - Once bitten, twice shy
Well, I can't really speak to what WoTC intended to happen with the OGL. I can, however, speak to what the RPG spectrum looked like before the advent of d20/OGL.
There were a lot of different systems out there. D&D was just one of many that someone could choose from, both in terms of genre and in terms of rules. Most gamers seemed to have their preferences, and while some people were interested in more than one game, they tended to stick with a particular system. I also noted that a lot of the gamers I knew seemed to hold a bit of disdain towards D&D. That is, they considered the rules to be inferior, and treated it as if it was the entry-level game kids and teenagers played, before moving on to 'better' systems.
Enter the d20/OGL, and 3rd Edition. Maybe it's just me, but I see d20 dominating the gaming scene these days. What really drew my attention was watching Third Party publishers and games that existed pre-d20 dropping their old rules, and converting to use the d20 system. People no longer seem to focus on all sorts of other systems - instead, d20, and D&D, is the focus of the pen and paper/dice/tabletop RPG community.
It's completely anecdotal, of course - but I attribute that in large part to the OGL. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the OGL was a huge windfall for WoTC and D&D, because it drew everyone into the same universe, rules-wise. In other words, d20 became an "Industry Standard." I would go so far as to say that 'derivative game systems' really didn't hurt D&D 3.x's product sales at all, and if anything, they helped them out immensely.
Why is that?
The answer is that WotC shouldn't care if I buy other things, so long as I'm buying theirs. It doesn't matter if you play it or not, ultimately, so long as you bought it. The d20 system minimized or eliminated the sense of "this is a different ruleset, it's worthless to me." That cuts both ways, of course - for instance, I bought the Call of Cthulhu d20 rules because I wanted to use some of the material in my D&D games. It also comes down to a question of, "How many people bought d20 system rulebooks that didn't buy the D&D 3.x rulebooks?" I would hazard to guess the answer is 'very few'.
Now let's consider the hypothetical buyer who intends to purchase only one set of core rulebooks. He/she will likely focus on three things:
1- Rules
2- Setting/Genre
3- Name recognition
Under d20/OGL, #1 is no longer a factor. Thus, we're left with #2 and #3. I would argue that anyone who is interested in other genres probably wouldn't be buying D&D anyway. #3 is a win for D&D, because they're one of the giants of the RPG industry, name-wise.
Thus, I don't think there was a lot of direct competition between WoTC and companies producing d20 base systems, that wasn't there before. What the GSL seems to be doing, in effect, is trying to return D&D to being the sole center of the universe in terms of rules, and I think this is a big mistake.
For one, I think it will discourage a lot of companies that otherwise would have printed their own rulebooks, but lent a good deal of support to the 4e System even just by printing those rulebooks. It's probably also worth noting that Paizo wasn't publishing its own ruleset prior to the announcement/release of 4E. As such, I might suggest that development has nothing to do with any flaws in the OGL, and more to do with the nature of the GSL, and the very fact of the way 4E has been met by many fans.
Rifts is not a universal system. Rifts is the bastard child of 1st edition D&D.Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
There were a number of systems prior to the d20 System/OGL that attempted to create a universal ruleset, that could then be applied to any number of settings and genres. "Rifts" was actually just one setting out of the Palladium series of games, and the one that wound up being the most familiar.
What really differentiated d20 from any of those predecessors, though, was the OGL. All of the prior efforts had been largely, if not wholly, proprietary. The systems might work great (or might not), but the only people putting out material for it was that company. Third-party stuff was the very minimal exception, and not the rule, even just for support material, let alone actual system compatibility.
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Don't go. You just got here. We're going to get some popcorn and beer before the Lisa vs Shelly match starts (GO LISA!). I think Heathy's got a really nice HD Tv we can watch it on.
WARNING: Watching Lisa in a bra and panties match will require a DC55 Sanity check, DC75 if you are watching in HD. Seriously, you really don't want that. :) You have been warned!
-Lisa
I lost my Sanity years ago; I'm immune.
I think you're right on the money with that assessment Fire Wraith.
well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!
I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
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well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
I see your "Monsters Monsters" and raise you "Space Opera."
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Rifts is not a universal system. Rifts is the bastard child of 1st edition D&D.Hero? I thought he was talking about Torg. Or perhaps True20. Or maybe Amber Diceless. Or Storyteller / d10. Or Fudge. Or Tri-Stat. Or Rifts. Wasn't it something about systems that could emulate many genres, which is only, uh, about half of them?
There were a number of systems prior to the d20 System/OGL that attempted to create a universal ruleset, that could then be applied to any number of settings and genres. "Rifts" was actually just one setting out of the Palladium series of games, and the one that wound up being the most familiar.
Rolled a 1 on my humor check, clearly.
well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
Melanda: Land of MysteryI see your "Monsters Monsters" and raise you "Space Opera."Fantasy Games Unlimited. Man! That was a needlessly complex system.
Okay, Daughters of Darkness.
Space Opera I had. But DoD and Melanda I never heard of. Are we going off of age or obscurity? I was going off of age. If we go off of obscurity, I will lose since I dropped out for years. If we go off 'almost as old as D&D', I have Boot Hill, Metamorphisis Alpha, Traveller and T&T. I actually played T&T first. I can't believe I sold my Empire of the Petal Throne. (I am getting misty now.)
EDIT: And I don't know about $20k in RPGs, but I know I spent 100% of my paper route money. That must count for something!
I actually played T&T first.I picked up the 7th edition of T&T last month. 7th! By the gawds. And a brief lookthru showed it had evolved far more complex than the system I remembered back in the day.
Just tell me you still use a million d6s. Otherwise I will not buy it. I want the tin set.
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Um, I'll call all ya and raise you a TWERPS.
-DM Jeff
Never saw or played it but heard about it later in (my gaming) life. Apparently it's a collector's item now.
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Um, I'll call all ya and raise you a TWERPS.
-DM Jeff
I call and raise you "Beyond the Far Stars." I haven't seen a copy of that anywhere since '94.
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Don't go. You just got here. We're going to get some popcorn and beer before the Lisa vs Shelly match starts (GO LISA!). I think Heathy's got a really nice HD Tv we can watch it on.WARNING: Watching Lisa in a bra and panties match will require a DC55 Sanity check, DC75 if you are watching in HD. Seriously, you really don't want that. :) You have been warned!
Lisa, the point of the match is to strip your opponent down to her bra & panties (thus humiliating her.) So in effect, we expect you to PWN Shelly. :)
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Lisa, the point of the match is to strip your opponent down to her bra & panties (thus humiliating her.) So in effect, we expect you to PWN Shelly. :)Don't go. You just got here. We're going to get some popcorn and beer before the Lisa vs Shelly match starts (GO LISA!). I think Heathy's got a really nice HD Tv we can watch it on.WARNING: Watching Lisa in a bra and panties match will require a DC55 Sanity check, DC75 if you are watching in HD. Seriously, you really don't want that. :) You have been warned!
Yeah! Kick the living smurf out of her Lisa!
Alright, I lost who Shelly is in this thread. Who's arse is Lisa going to kick?
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well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
Lord yes, I remember Bunnies & Burrows.
Anyone remember Creature Feature?
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and ditto on the whole Lisa vs whoever fight.
Ok need help on an old game.
Was published by a Sweedish, Norwegian group I think.
A modern horror game. The world was a kind of shadow of sorts, and if you peered too deep into the shadows you saw the "other city"
I can't remember the name of the city. Once you enter the other world, every where is this abandoned ancient run down horric city.
This game sent chills up my spine just reading it.
Anyone remember what it was called?
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and ditto on the whole Lisa vs whoever fight.
Ok need help on an old game.
Was published by a Sweedish, Norwegian group I think.
A modern horror game. The world was a kind of shadow of sorts, and if you peered too deep into the shadows you saw the "other city"
I can't remember the name of the city. Once you enter the other world, every where is this abandoned ancient run down horric city.
This game sent chills up my spine just reading it.
Anyone remember what it was called?
I see your "Monsters Monsters" and raise you "Space Opera."well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
Don't forget Car Wars!
Don't forget Car Wars!I see your "Monsters Monsters" and raise you "Space Opera."well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
Still have my box set of that!
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Still have my box set of that!Don't forget Car Wars!I see your "Monsters Monsters" and raise you "Space Opera."well, i was using the conversions for boot hill in the 1e dmg, so i guess d&d is universal also. hmmm. ALL rpg's are universal with a little thought!!!!I remember Boot Hill! I call you and raise you; 'Monsters, Monsters'. Does anybody remember that? ( I know somebody will. Somebody else remembered Bunnies & Burrows for goodness sake.)
Haven't seen my box set in years!
I was never that good at it anyway. My car always got trashed.