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Charles Evans 25, I've seen your name on the Paizo board long enough to know that you know I'm not "rabid" about anything. Well, except Lilith's cookies :D(Edit for clarity: This is an irreverant, humorous, observation)
I do not frequent other boards, so had not particularly noticed this, but when I read this post, for a moment I took you to be a rabid Paizo supporter, Joela, trying to rally the Paizo posters to go off and storm the message boards of the infidel hordes... :D'Oh hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing'
-Line from the christmas carol 'It came upon the midnight clear'.So Heathansson being turned loose on RPG.net as one consequence of this thread (or at least he posted that he's been looking over their forums) was an entirely unintended consequence??? (:shock:) I'm sure that that will be a great reassurance to the wives/husbands and girlfriends/boyfriends cashing in their late partner's life insurance policies.... :D
I just lurkin. I got nothing to say over there.
We have fans running websites dedicated to Paizo, chatrooms for us, they've ordered us pizza on days we're on huge deadlines, and they even threw together a small convention for all-things Paizo.
Yes, but have you met those people? They're... disturbed. I wouldn't use them as references for my daycare. Just sayin'.
Mwah-hah-hah! :D
*makes cookies*
me want cookies!
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Look at the guy who asked Nick to write an adventure about hillbilly ogres and then proceeded to publish it. What I'm saying is that I'm probably more disturbed than most of Paizo's readers.I'd love to see the unedited version of that module. "Sick & Twisted", indeed :)
yeah, I'd be curious as well ...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Really? I thought ToH was a brilliant way to get monsters into the field. It gave necromancer a good product and saved WotC the effort to translate the monsters themselves. In the alternate reality where WotC never abandoned their plans listed in the Monster Manual II it would be a win all the way around.
Really? I thought ToH was a brilliant way to get monsters into the field. It gave necromancer a good product and saved WotC the effort to translate the monsters themselves. In the alternate reality where WotC never abandoned their plans listed in the Monster Manual II it would be a win all the way around.
I didn't say it was a bad product, I just said it was not very creative.
My apologies Pangur Ban.
I salute you, sir. That was very big of you.
I sometimes wonder how much of the Pathfinder "bashing" is an attempt to make someone feel better about adopting 4e. It seems to go hand in hand with claiming that 3.x is broken, unplayable and unfun. Having a product like Pathfinder RPG, which suggests that 3.x may be fun, that other people are having fun with it, and that with some tweaks, it could be even more fun, may threaten some peoples' sense of themselves.
A lot of the 4e "bashing" seems motivated from the same place (or, for that matter, bashing just about any entertainment other people enjoy that you do not). It's almost a matter of self-protection to claim that something you don't enjoy is inherently worthless and, by extension, those who manage to find something enjoyable about it are themselves worthless... because to admit otherwise would be to admit that you might be wrong.
Since Paizo has stepped up as the most visible target, they're getting most of this effect... but I've seen similar anger directed Chris Pramas (and Green Ronin) for not joining with the "4e is perfect" wave, too.
Personally, if I thought that Paizo was going to publish a clone of the 3.5 Player's Handbook with just the minimum number of changes to avoid a lawsuit, I'd consider that a bit weak creatively (just as I consider a book consisting solely of 3.0/3.5 translations of 1st edition monsters a bit weak). But from what I've seen there has been a good faith effort to make something different and (hopefully) better. YMMV.
Perhaps, though in my opinion, the decision not to change things can in some cases be a sign of maturity, to set aside one's ego as "game-designer". Though it is a bit unrealistic to assume that game-designers aren't going to (re)design games, or as an analogy for law-makers not to make laws.
The 4e folks who are getting nervous about Pathfinders' persistence and forward momentum are on to something and crying in their beer for a reason - 4e is in trouble out of the gate and Pathfinder is moving up fast. Wotc is either unaware of this, unwilling to acknowledge it or unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Probably a combination.
That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
Anybody else thing Pangur Ban keeled over with a heart attack when got a sincere apology from Brent in an internet discussion? :P
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That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I'll be curious to see if the Pathfinder Society's participation at GenCon and the release of the beta will cause any spikes as well.
I'll be curious to see if the Pathfinder Society's participation at GenCon and the release of the beta will cause any spikes as well.
Good question. I don't go to conventions, so I don't really think about that kind of stuff.
I wonder if there's a Pathfinder Society group forming up in the Toronto area...
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I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I don't see that happening, mainly because unlike 4e... WE HAVE THE RULES.
Fact of the matter is, until 4e actually came out, we had nothing but a few scattered events and a 2 books that told us nothing about the actual game mechanics to use and mess around with. We've had Alpha, now we'll get Beta.
We're also still getting Pathfinder offerings that still mean something in the other product lines. All of the 3e offerings leading up to the release of 4e were a joke. A book of villian npcs? A book of super villian npcs? A book about old modules? Who cares? WOTC was telling us out of the gate it wasn't compatible.
4e lost it's steam because WOTC let it lose it's steam and released meaningless product building up to 4e's release.
That's odd. From my point of view, 4E had a lot of momentum when it was first announced, but then gradually started losing it during the lengthy waiting period before it was actually released, then experienced another small spike when the game actually came out.
This sounds about right, though I think by the time 4e was released many people were quite skeptical about it and once the initial rush was over demand dropped quickly. It's hard to say, we aren't privy to their sales figures.
I think the same thing applies/will apply to Pathfinder: there was a big spike of interest when it was first announced (from what I saw), which will gradually decline until the final rules are released in 2009, which will cause interest to have another spike.
I'm not sure this is the case. I came here looking for the Alpha then got interested in their other products. Based on Erik's comments about increased sales post 4e I get the impression that a lot of people did the same thing.
The beta release plus the beta update releases will keep people interested and involved in Pathfinder. Sales for the Pathfinder hardcover will no doubt be highest for the first couple weeks after released as backorders get filled and pend up demand is released but by that time I think their customer base will be well established. I don't see a lot of new people jumping on board immediately following the release.
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Eric Mona vs Bill Slavicsek in a cage match!Well, I'd have thought Bill would beat me in a "spell my name incorrectly" contest, but I guess not. Fret.
Lol.. sorry, you know I'm not the only one that puts a C instead of a K. :)
As for spelling his name, I cheated, I typed "dungeons dragons bill" into Firefox's amazon.com search box and got his last name off the D&D from Dummies entry. :)
Eric Mona vs Bill Slavicsek in a cage match!
Well, I'd have thought Bill would beat me in a "spell my name incorrectly" contest, but I guess not.
Fret.
He was talking about me, you egomaniac. Sheesh.
Shenanigans!!!
We're also still getting Pathfinder offerings that still mean something in the other product lines. All of the 3e offerings leading up to the release of 4e were a joke. A book of villian npcs? A book of super villian npcs? A book about old modules? Who cares? WOTC was telling us out of the gate it wasn't compatible.
4e lost it's steam because WOTC let it lose it's steam and released meaningless product building up to 4e's release.
Indeed. Prior to the 4e announcement I frequently checked in on the WotC D&D page and it had interesting content, articles. Post 4e announcement the WotC website became one giant advertisement for vaporware. There is only so much blatant in your face self promotion a person can stand.
Whether the first three 4e books themselves were decent or not was irrelevant. By the time 4e was finally release Wizards had demonstrated beyond a doubt that they were incapable of producing a continued stream of quality products. One of the biggest problems with 3.5 was the fact that wizards had horrible quality control over the life cycle of the product and the build up to 4e proved it beyond doubt.
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We're also still getting Pathfinder offerings that still mean something in the other product lines.
That is a good point. Paizo has modules and if there's anything time-strapped DMs desperately want are good, easy to use, modules.
I wonder: if Paizo's seen a surge of sales from the PfRPG announcement, have other companies like Louis Porter Jr. Design, Kobold Magazine, etc., seen increased interest and, possibly, sales rise in their 3.x offerings in the wake of 4E?
Man, you guys are brutal.
Creative Director
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Can anyone who was involved in the playtest prior to the Pathfinder announcement confirm that this ability was or wasn't there? I'm not usually big on conspiracy theories, but if this was added or changed after the Paizo announcement, that is sort of lame.
Since we announced Pathfinder the same day we announced the loss of the magazine licenses, yes. This was well before WotC announced 4th Edition (we had Pathfinder #1 for sale at the Gen Con where WotC first announced 4th edition, for example), and since playtests didn't happen until after that... yes. Paizo using the word "Pathfinder" has been public knowledge since early 2007. The first ads for Pathfinder ran in Dragon and Dungeon magazine, several issues before they ceased being print magazines. I have no idea how far along 4th edition was in development in early 2007, though, but I do know WotC knew about Pathfinder the same day they announced that the magazines were cancelled.
I'm relatively positive that the paragon Pathfinder path's "Wrong Step" and a few of its other abilities are in-house jokes or "easter eggs." And I pretty much agree with Erik on the thought that it's a pretty pathetic little bit of sniping, but I'm not letting it get under my skin like one of Hellboy's tooth fairies.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Since we announced Pathfinder the same day we announced the loss of the magazine licenses, yes. This was well before WotC announced 4th Edition (we had Pathfinder #1 for sale at the Gen Con where WotC first announced 4th edition, for example), and since playtests didn't happen until after that... yes. Paizo using the word "Pathfinder" has been public knowledge since early 2007. The first ads for Pathfinder ran in Dragon and Dungeon magazine, several issues before they ceased being print magazines. I have no idea how far along 4th edition was in development in early 2007, though, but I do know WotC knew about Pathfinder the same day they announced that the magazines were cancelled.
Wouldn't the relevant timeframe be after Paizo announced that it did not intend to convert to 4e? It'd be surprising if WotC would make the "wrong step" joke at the time you announced Pathfinder unless they had some reason to believe you wouldn't be converting to 4e.
(That being said, I think the announcment re: 4e was made during the window in which WotC could have made the change, but I am not certain.)
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Creative Director
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Wouldn't the relevant timeframe be after Paizo announced that it did not intend to convert to 4e? It'd be surprising if WotC would make the "wrong step" joke at the time you announced Pathfinder unless they had some reason to believe you wouldn't be converting to 4e.
(That being said, I think the announcment re: 4e was made during the window in which WotC could have made the change, but I am not certain.)
I'm relatively certain that substantial changes were made to 4E up to the day before the books were sent to the printers earlier this year, actually. Plenty of time to hear about Paizo's plans.
I have seen some discussions on WoTC's boards that discussed Pathfinder and had those for and against. Didn't seem to be getting too much moderation.
Keep in mind that those who are attacking Paizo are actually a good thing. Negative/shocking publicity gets the word out. (Celebrities use it all the time.) The more people are talking about Pathfinder, the more that weren't even aware of it will meander over here and check it out.
All we need now is a sex scandal!
All of the 3e offerings leading up to the release of 4e were a joke. A book of villian npcs? A book of super villian npcs? A book about old modules? Who cares? WOTC was telling us out of the gate it wasn't compatible.
Yeah, but in those books it says that you can find the 4E conversions on the D&D Insider!
So all you need to do to use them in 4E is log on and there are the 4e conversions!
What? They're not there? WotC said they would be there. Surely they wouldn't claim something that isn't true....
Must be a glitch...
Look at the guy who asked Nick to write an adventure about hillbilly ogres and then proceeded to publish it. What I'm saying is that I'm probably more disturbed than most of Paizo's readers.I'd love to see the unedited version of that module. "Sick & Twisted", indeed :)
Man, that would be something... a "Director's Cut" for Hook Mountain! Count me in!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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......blah, blah, intelligent stuff galore......Are you Really a Bella Sara Charter Subscriber, as your tagline suggests, or has the joke gone on too long and Cosmo needs a flogging?
Cosmo definitely needs a flogging, but that's entirely independent of the joke going on too long. I don't think there is a Bella Sara charter subscription, but I'm just happy to have my cranky dwarf avatar back and don't mind the funny tag.
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Cosmo definitely needs a flogging, but that's entirely independent of the joke going on too long. I don't think there is a Bella Sara charter subscription, but I'm just happy to have my cranky dwarf avatar back and don't mind the funny tag.......blah, blah, intelligent stuff galore......Are you Really a Bella Sara Charter Subscriber, as your tagline suggests, or has the joke gone on too long and Cosmo needs a flogging?
I hope you are at least receiving Bella Sera product for your pain....or would that just be salt in the wound?
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Yeah, but in those books it says that you can find the 4E conversions on the D&D Insider!
So all you need to do to use them in 4E is log on and there are the 4e conversions!
What? They're not there? WotC said they would be there. Surely they wouldn't claim something that isn't true....
Yep, I would have liked to have that bonus content before I got locked out of DnD Insider. Is anybody else locked out? It seems like everything their boards go down I lose access again.
All we need now is a sex scandal!Yeah, naked gamers writhing around......that oughtta go over well...
;P
ewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!! lame! not cool! lame!
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I just lurkin. I got nothing to say over there.Charles Evans 25, I've seen your name on the Paizo board long enough to know that you know I'm not "rabid" about anything. Well, except Lilith's cookies :DSo Heathansson being turned loose on RPG.net as one consequence of this thread (or at least he posted that he's been looking over their forums) was an entirely unintended consequence??? (:shock:) I'm sure that that will be a great reassurance to the wives/husbands and girlfriends/boyfriends cashing in their late partner's life insurance policies.... :D
That's a relief... :D
Edited my previous post to mention Kobold Cleaver and his Dire Pigeons, too, in case they were feeling left-out.
Ummm. That might not have been a good idea actually.... <D'oh moment>
??? I'm just know I'm missing something here. I'm not familiar with "Heathansson" or his(her?) humor. :(
You're right. My apologies Pangur Ban. It is paranoid and not supported well by objective evidence. I apologize for attacking you personally and talking about you in a derogatory manner. I also apologize to the rest of you for sullying the board by engaging in this sort of behavior. I don't want to ruin this place for anyone, and Ixancoatl makes good points about the ridiculousness of my behavior.
Now that, that gets my respect. I do believe we can get along. Like a house on fire even, which you can take any way you like. ;-)
Anybody else thing Pangur Ban keeled over with a heart attack when got a sincere apology from Brent in an internet discussion? :P
You're wrong, sir, entirely wrong. In fact, the emotional intensity that ripped through me upon reading said post may well have saved me from a coronary after my over-abundant feasting on baked banana and peanut butter sandwiches. Elvis is dead, but his recipes for a light snack between meals may still cause me to join him soon.
I'm relatively positive that the paragon Pathfinder path's "Wrong Step" and a few of its other abilities are in-house jokes or "easter eggs." And I pretty much agree with Erik on the thought that it's a pretty pathetic little bit of sniping, but I'm not letting it get under my skin like one of Hellboy's tooth fairies.
I'm not exactly part of the in-crowd so I'm not well-placed to judge these things, but do you honestly think that was meant as a sneer of sorts? It's a paragon path (paragon, as in shining example) and Wrong Step is a power that lets the Pathfinder sets his enemy up for a trap.
I'm frankly surprised you're not grinning and saying what a fine joke WotC played on themselves here.
All of the 3e offerings leading up to the release of 4e were a joke. A book of villian npcs? A book of super villian npcs? A book about old modules? Who cares? WOTC was telling us out of the gate it wasn't compatible.Yeah, but in those books it says that you can find the 4E conversions on the D&D Insider!
So all you need to do to use them in 4E is log on and there are the 4e conversions!
What? They're not there? WotC said they would be there. Surely they wouldn't claim something that isn't true....
Must be a glitch...
Yep, a glitch. Definitely a glitch.
Just like the frequency of their boards crashing. And the NEED for Errata for a LOT of the books.
Yeah, but in those books it says that you can find the 4E conversions on the D&D Insider!
So all you need to do to use them in 4E is log on and there are the 4e conversions!
What? They're not there? WotC said they would be there. Surely they wouldn't claim something that isn't true....
Must be a glitch...
I thought they had some conversion articles up recently.