I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
No. Honestly, the one HP thing is ridiculous.
It's already possible to add lower-level minions to most boss fights without badly affecting the CR. For instance, against a level 10 party, I want a CR 13 BBEG. So I get a CR 11 or so BBEG, and add 4 CR 7 minions.
For me the 1 hp is not about avoiding overpowering the PCs and rather avoiding tracking the hit points of several creatures that are exactly the same and are going to be moving around a lot.
Either way I think that there might be better ways to handle it (for Pathfinder RPG), I would rather minion like monsters to look toward newer and innovative minion mechanics.
Director of Brand Strategy
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For me the 1 hp is not about avoiding overpowering the PCs and rather avoiding tracking the hit points of several creatures that are exactly the same and are going to be moving around a lot.
Either way I think that there might be better ways to handle it (for Pathfinder RPG), I would rather minion like monsters to look toward newer and innovative minion mechanics.
I'd rather minions not reinvent the wheel. Sure, if there could be an easier way of minioning an encounter, then I'm all for it, but I think the CR system in 3.5 is flexible enough to allow someone to make "minions," if not 4e minions, with little or no trouble.
I don't get the whole concept of "minions". You've been able to make encounters with a boss monster and lots of non-boss monsters since AD&D. Suddenly in 4e they call it 'minions' and make some special rules for it? It's a great idea, I just don't see why you need a special term for what is a common encounter design.
Maybe we need an encounter design handbook?
Actually I think the dungeoneering guide has some good sections on encounter design.
I don't get the whole concept of "minions". You've been able to make encounters with a boss monster and lots of non-boss monsters since AD&D. Suddenly in 4e they call it 'minions' and make some special rules for it? It's a great idea, I just don't see why you need a special term for what is a common encounter design.
Maybe we need an encounter design handbook?
Actually I think the dungeoneering guide has some good sections on encounter design.
Because minions in 4E aren't like a lower CR in 3.5E. They have attack bonuses and defenses and abilities on par with normal creatures of their level - so they have a chance of actually doing something to the PCs.
In 3.5 Edition, PCs usually just roll over those "extra" creatures that are lower CR than them, and basically that just consumes a few extra turns on their part. In many cases, they could just ignore those creatures outright and attack the BBEG solely.
Fourth Edition removes this and replaces those "extras" with "minions" who are effective, but easily dispatched. A good combo for having a bunch of small guys supporting a BBEG.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I strongly would urge that no special "minion" rules be added. As previous posters have stated, it's easy to use some lower CR critters to have the shield wall effect for the actual opponents without artificially weakening them. Having a bunch of 1 hp minions drastically changes the balance of the encounter, for example, a magic missle spell from a 9th level caster now coudl kill 5 minions automatically, when it should probably only be able to kill 1 mook. Barbarians wouldn't have to waste rage points to achieve 1 hit kills, since any hit will do, save those rage points for only the "boss monsters", etc.
It would also greatly increase the power of area of effect spells: 1 fireball = no minions.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I don't get the whole concept of "minions". You've been able to make encounters with a boss monster and lots of non-boss monsters since AD&D. Suddenly in 4e they call it 'minions' and make some special rules for it? It's a great idea, I just don't see why you need a special term for what is a common encounter design.
Maybe we need an encounter design handbook?
Actually I think the dungeoneering guide has some good sections on encounter design.
Because minions in 4E aren't like a lower CR in 3.5E. They have attack bonuses and defenses and abilities on par with normal creatures of their level - so they have a chance of actually doing something to the PCs.
In 3.5 Edition, PCs usually just roll over those "extra" creatures that are lower CR than them, and basically that just consumes a few extra turns on their part. In many cases, they could just ignore those creatures outright and attack the BBEG solely.
Fourth Edition removes this and replaces those "extras" with "minions" who are effective, but easily dispatched. A good combo for having a bunch of small guys supporting a BBEG.
3.X "extras" don't have to be as useless as you're describing. If their leaders have access to decent buffing magic, either through potions, spells, bardic music, etc. the minions can be brought up to an adequate level of power to still have lasting effects. If you're using really low powered minions, they should be grappling to prevent the PCs from moving through them, with the aid another feat an 5 buddies, they should be able to pin a few PCs for their bosses to stomp on.
Yes, you can place minions in 3.5 encounters, just because 4e uses the name minion doesn't mean that minions haven't existed.
However, having run a couple combats in 3.5 with a large number of minions between the "boss" and the players. I would have to say it was not easy, nor pleasant, and I looking back I believe that there were easier ways for me to produce the intended feel of that encounter with making me want to tear out my hair for two hours.
Yes, I can create minion creatures in 3.5. But I would not suggest that their numbers exceed four (or maybe six at most) in a single encounter after my battles. Even at that point the battles were starting to feel more monotonous and irritating rather than intense and exciting.
I strongly would urge that no special "minion" rules be added. As previous posters have stated, it's easy to use some lower CR critters to have the shield wall effect for the actual opponents without artificially weakening them. Having a bunch of 1 hp minions drastically changes the balance of the encounter, for example, a magic missle spell from a 9th level caster now coudl kill 5 minions automatically, when it should probably only be able to kill 1 mook. Barbarians wouldn't have to waste rage points to achieve 1 hit kills, since any hit will do, save those rage points for only the "boss monsters", etc.
It would also greatly increase the power of area of effect spells: 1 fireball = no minions.
I do think think special "minion" rules should be exclusively connected to 1 hp minions. I believe that special monsters with minion like effects can be created without employing the 1 hp rule.
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Because minions in 4E aren't like a lower CR in 3.5E. They have attack bonuses and defenses and abilities on par with normal creatures of their level - so they have a chance of actually doing something to the PCs. In 3.5 Edition, PCs usually just roll over those "extra" creatures that are lower CR than them, and basically that just consumes a few extra turns on their part. In many cases, they could just ignore those creatures outright and attack the BBEG solely. Fourth Edition removes this and replaces those "extras" with "minions" who are effective, but easily dispatched. A good combo for having a bunch of small guys supporting a BBEG.
Exactly, the concept of Minion in 4e aren't to add more monsters to the fight, they're to add more attacks against the PCs to the fight. As been said, Minions are effectively offensively, but drop an AoE on them and they're all neutralize.
Think of it this way...
A fighter literally will great cleave through 4 minions (in 4e) with 1 great cleave attack... but not before the 4 minions got 4 equally powerful attacks against the fighter.
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Ya know as the levels go up the CR just doesn't work. CR 10 for a lvl 10 group is a cake walk. Somewhere around 7ish I think you need to add half as much again to the CR to get a real challenge especially for a BBEG.
So, for a lvl 10 party I might have BBEG be about lvl 13 and a handful of lvl 7-9 "minions"
Then teh fight might actually seem to be in doubt...
Ya know as the levels go up the CR just doesn't work. CR 10 for a lvl 10 group is a cake walk.
That just means the CR of certain things needs to be re-evaluated.
Like bad guys with PC classes, because the Party is more than the sum of its parts (and have better gear to boot).
In 3.5 Edition, PCs usually just roll over those "extra" creatures that are lower CR than them, and basically that just consumes a few extra turns on their part. In many cases, they could just ignore those creatures outright and attack the BBEG solely.
I'm still not seeing where this is an inherent issue in the system as opposed to just an encounter design issue.
If you have a 7th level party and you throw a bunch of stock orc archers at them they will likely ignore them and do whatever focus on the main BBEG. Give those same orcs a decent dexterity, a couple levels of ranger, masterwork longbows, weapon focus, and cover and suddenly while they aren't taking a huge amount of damage it's enough so that if they ignore them for too long they will be seriously hurting. If you really want to make them stand up and pay attention scatter some arrows of human and elf slaying around the orcs.
If you want to call them minions then feel free. Personally I don't see this as a systemic issue, I see it as an encounter design issue.
Thats a DM caveat. If you want minions, use a generic stat block, and give them 1hp. It's that easy. However, I don't feel it should be core.
What would turn a creature into a minion? If you meet an ogre on its own and it escapes thanks to having a fair number of hit points, then it (or its brother) later re-appears as a minion, where did its HP go? Would "becoming minions" apply to creatures the characters summon? Can I develop a spell that reclassifies my enemies as minions? Why not?
Special rules that apply only to things going on around the characters are pure metagaming. In terms of the game world, the characters are just an unusually successful group of adventurers. Other parts of the world shouldn't mysteriously transform in relationship to their role in some "plot" which exists in the head of a Game Master who doesn't exist in the game world.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Ya know as the levels go up the CR just doesn't work. CR 10 for a lvl 10 group is a cake walk. Somewhere around 7ish I think you need to add half as much again to the CR to get a real challenge especially for a BBEG.
This might be true in the mid-levels from 7-15 but above that, the "half again" starts getting a lot bigger. A lvl 20 party is gonna be a TPK'd against a CR 30 creature, to take it to the extreme.
Start with the base creature.
1) Reduce the creature's CON to no greater than 10 + base CR (if it has one). If it's a creature with levels, give it the standard ability array (11,10,10,10,10,9), modified by race.
2) Give it 1 hp/HD. If the grand total gives the creature more than 3 * base CR hp, it probably shouldn't be used as a minion.
3) Figure out the average damage it does with an attack, subtract 2 from the total (to a minimum of 1). That is what it does with its attacks.
As a guess, I'd drop the CR by 1, maybe 2. This should give you a pretty close approximation of a minion for 3E. It should be able to hit the PC's and do some damage, but go down with the first hit (or two).
If you really want to make them stand up and pay attention scatter some arrows of human and elf slaying around the orcs.
This isn't really making me trust your advice on encounter design.
I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
NO
I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
NO MINIONS! I strongly oppose adding anything like that to pathfinder's core rules system. The main reason I came to pathfinder was to escape from 4.0's weird video gamey core rules. If DM's want "minions" thats ok but not in the core rules or modules please!
Unless there's something more to the minions rule in 4th edition, isn't a minion basically any creature that rolled all 1s on its hit dice? And if that's the case, why does there need to be a rule for them?
Honestly, minion rules are one of the few things I really like about 4.0. I've tried throwing PCs against a mob of lower level opponents (7th level gestalt PCs vs 8+ 3rd level npcs) and they mostly dropped them in single attacks without suffering much damage in the exchange. Higher attack and defense bonuses with lower HP is really all it'd take to make Minions workable, and I don't have a problem houseruling it, but I think it does make for a pretty good idea.
Why would not Minions just be a template? If a DM likes them, he uses them. If not, then not. There are several templates I have not used. I saw someone suggest minimum HP based on the number of hit dice. No need to rewrite the MM. Furthermore, it makes it backwards compatible.
As to making it core.... I don't know. It appears to be a flavor thing. Some campaigns would use them, some would not. In some ways they are like mobile traps. They serve a purpose in some encounters. Templates I believe are part of the MM. So wait for the Paizo Big Book of Monsters (& Minions).
It would be easy.
Take a monster's current statblock, lower them to 2 HP per HD and take away some of the more powerful or potentially deadly special abilities they have.
They are still potentially dangerous damage wise and may have a few annoying abilities but with most of their abilities gone, no adjustment to HP via constitution and only 2 hp per HD they will get mowed down like grass.
There you have it...3P minions.
This isn't really making me trust your advice on encounter design.
Hey, I'm still trying to figure out what the point is. You want to make enemies that are deliberately easy to kill but capable of hurting the PCs... ??? Huh? What is so exciting about minions that makes them such a challenge to put into your existing game? Why do you need special rules for them?
This isn't really making me trust your advice on encounter design.Hey, I'm still trying to figure out what the point is. You want to make enemies that are deliberately easy to kill but capable of hurting the PCs... ??? Huh? What is so exciting about minions that makes them such a challenge to put into your existing game? Why do you need special rules for them?
No. I already have enemies that are easy to kill and somewhat capable of hurting the PCs. I could use many monsters for that if they had a significantly lower CR than the party.
What I want is easily to run those monsters without wanting to tear out my hair a third of the way through the battle. That is why I would appreciate some special, well thought out rules for them.
I don't care to avoid having to record hit points the eight "minions" on the battlefield, instead monsters just have to make a fortitude save vs the damage just dealt or die.
I don't care if to avoid making attack/aid another rolls for those minions, that they can just spend a standard action to boost another nearby creature's attack and/or damage without any special roll.
I don't care if to avoid making Reflex saves for all these minions when they are fireballed, I instead make a single Reflex save at a -4 penalty for the minion closest to the blast origin, then use the same total with a +2 bonus for the next closest minion and that total with a +2 bonus for the next closest minion and so on for all the minions in the blast.
They are exciting for the same reason why many monsters are exciting for me. They are another tool for creating unique encounters. To me, they are as much a challenge to create as many other unique monsters. I could make my own attempt, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see Paizo produce a better, cleaner minion monster that I wouldn't have thought of.
What is so exciting about minions that makes them such a challenge to put into your existing game? Why do you need special rules for them?
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@Plognark - yeah, I tend to feel that way about 4e minions.
Why would not Minions just be a template? If a DM likes them, he uses them. If not, then not. There are several templates I have not used. I saw someone suggest minimum HP based on the number of hit dice. No need to rewrite the MM. Furthermore, it makes it backwards compatible.
As to making it core.... I don't know. It appears to be a flavor thing. Some campaigns would use them, some would not. In some ways they are like mobile traps. They serve a purpose in some encounters. Templates I believe are part of the MM. So wait for the Paizo Big Book of Monsters (& Minions).
I think this mid-solution is amenable. I have strong feelings against making something like this a core change, but don't mind a variant for gamemasters who really do like the 1 hp thing.
At its heart, the minions rules seem a bit contrived and threaten the verisimilitude of the mileau. That is, meet Mr. Blood Orc #1 (from ToH3), he's rough and ready, tough and dangerous with that Great Axe! Now, meet Blood Orc #2, just call him gimpy! He has 1 hp and comes to us from the "waiting to fall over" two-dimensional-ville, kind of like a flat Stanley, who's there just for the photo op, but everyone realized he tears easily.
So, ultimately GMs must decide. After talking through this aloud, I'm landing in the "keep it out of Pathfinder/Plognark camp. I already successfully stock my encounters with minions aleady in 3.5. I am not particularly charmed by the 1hp factor, 'cause I find the current CR system easy enough to follow by adding small tiny minions in the service of medium helpers in the service of big bosses. Recent example: 7 Undead Dwarf Minions + 1-2 Derro guards + 1 evil sorcerer villain.
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The arguement about how many hit points something has is a bit of a non-issue. Once you get to a certain level it seems to me that any character is going to do x+10 damage automatically.
Once you hit 10th level, what's the chance your not going to do alteast 10 points of damage per attack? I know you can do less than that, but on average what's the chances of really doing that little damage?
The question is better asked, what is better, low hit point minions or minions that can take one or two hits/attacks?
Kobolds are defacto minions at a certain level. Well used they they can become a mob and that might prove to be a problem to a tenth level party if your using DMG2 rules.
At its heart, the minions rules seem a bit contrived and threaten the verisimilitude of the mileau. That is, meet Mr. Blood Orc #1 (from ToH3), he's rough and ready, tough and dangerous with that Great Axe! Now, meet Blood Orc #2, just call him gimpy! He has 1 hp and comes to us from the "waiting to fall over" two-dimensional-ville, kind of like a flat Stanley, who's there just for the photo op, but everyone realized he tears easily.
The minion idea comes up to support some of the conceits of the action genre. BBEGs have helpers they they throw at the characters to slow them down a little. Some fun action occurs and the minions crumple. You see the same in superhero comics. Thus the idea works really well for Feng Shui and Mutants and Masterminds.
But I think 4e mistranslates the idea a bit. In both of those other games, minions aren't necessarily 1-hit wonders. You have to hit them well enough. For D&D minions, I'd just go with something the CR you want and give it minimum hit points for its hit dice. Characters do enough damage to probably 1 or 2-hit them if they hit well enough.|
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I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder.
While this was brought up a while back during playtesting, and I didn't answer too wisely by just saying "no, cause it's in 4e" I'll add my thoughts. Not everythign in 4e is awful by any means but I see no reason to need a minion mechanic or build in Pathfinder/3.5.
I mean, I've already been doing this type of thing all along anyway, heaven't you all? I overstock a room for effect and I rule that any damage dice that doesn't come up a "1" kills the creature so I don't have to worry about paperwork. There are LOADS of low-level fodder like this throughout the MM's and other sources. That's all the mionion rules I need.
I do not tell the players this, however, because, like the minion rules from 4e, it breaks verisimilitude of the game knowing there are "figures there waiting to die from a stubbed toe". :-)
-DM Jeff
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I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
I already use them in my campaign set in Ravenloft. Since I use the Thoughness save of the True20 instead of ht points, and the "minion" concept of 4E has been ripped off the True20 rules system, I see no problems.
In my past campaign, set in WoGreyhawk, with hit points, I used a similar system, simply reducing the hit points of a "minion" (where "minion" stands for "unnamed NPC existing only to be cut in two by PCs") by half.
Unless there's something more to the minions rule in 4th edition, isn't a minion basically any creature that rolled all 1s on its hit dice? And if that's the case, why does there need to be a rule for them?
Agreed. There's already a way in the Core rules of making monsters more fragile -- use the low end of the HP spectrum instead of the average. Adjusting a monster's HP to make it tougher or weaker is as old as D&D itself, I think.
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While agree 100% that DMs have always had the ability to reduce HPs to create "minions" there is one other consideration. This will be the book other publishers use for creating adventures.
So, unless you want them creating rooms full of BBEGs with one minion because the rules do not make it obvious for a GM to deal with minions, then we need something.
The primary reason for Minions to me is dungeon creation and the CR and ECL of the encounter.
More appropriate to me would be about a paragraph in the encounters section saying that a minion is created at minimum HP and worth CR-3 or something like that. Is it worth any XP at all?
With that one paragraph, or one sentence even, 3PP dungeons can become more dynamic. When was the last time you saw a printed adventure with a minion at min HP?
I'm gonna have to go with the "why is this in any way needed" camp. I have always been a big believer in believibility and verisimilitude in my gaming, both as a GM and a player. Minion rules just seem like a way to boost the ego of otherwise flat PCs when they should be challenged, not handed Skittles for no reason. There are many reasons to avoid the illogical "minion rules" concept.
1) If I'm the BBEG, the last thing I'm going to waste my resources on is a bunch of disposable goons. I'd be smart enough to spend my resources on real minions ... you know, the kind who challenge my enemies and keep them from encountering me in the first place. Rather than hire a bunch of 1 hp guys who might hit the PCs on their way to me, I'd be better off, at the weakest, hiring a bunch of level 1 wizards apprentice types with a couple of Magic Missiles memorized. With 20 of those, I'd have anywhere from 20 to 100 points of damage to dish out from behind cover in the first round or two.
2) The game is supposed to be a challenge, not a cake walk for the characters. If the biggest threat is a bunch of mindless jerks who might possibly hurt the PCs before getting mowed down, it's not really a challenge. It gives me visions of the "Rambo" segment from Weird Al's UHF or the Galactic Police from Hitchiker's shooting at the heroes behind the computer console. I mean come on, players; show some actual cajones ... not the fake ones that "minion rules" calls forth.
We used to have a name for that type of gaming style ... Monty Haul.
It really depends... if you want to use them as a swarm, it might be nice to simulate a higher level of difficulty in fighting 50 goblins or kobolds at level 10.
If making them minions and giving them a boost due to sheer numbers in a way that the current rules don't follow... then by all means. I always felt if you are fighting 50 of something it should still be somewhat of a concern even when you have past the point where they are an actual game-threat. That being said, there are already some guidelines for making swarms-enemies out of little baddies, correct?
I could see it if you want to run a superhero style campaign under pathfinder rules as well.
For the most part, I don't see much point in them though.
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I'm gonna have to go with the "why is this in any way needed" camp. I have always been a big believer in believibility and verisimilitude in my gaming, both as a GM and a player. Minion rules just seem like a way to boost the ego of otherwise flat PCs when they should be challenged, not handed Skittles for no reason. There are many reasons to avoid the illogical "minion rules" concept.
1) If I'm the BBEG, the last thing I'm going to waste my resources on is a bunch of disposable goons. I'd be smart enough to spend my resources on real minions ... you know, the kind who challenge my enemies and keep them from encountering me in the first place. Rather than hire a bunch of 1 hp guys who might hit the PCs on their way to me, I'd be better off, at the weakest, hiring a bunch of level 1 wizards apprentice types with a couple of Magic Missiles memorized. With 20 of those, I'd have anywhere from 20 to 100 points of damage to dish out from behind cover in the first round or two.
If this were real life yes you would absolutely correct. But it is not. The idea of minions is if the GM or adventure writer wants to do something more cinematic. I just watched these movies so it they come to mind.
X-Men 3-Last Stand. The final scene has a bunch of minion mutants rushing the X-Men. Each is dsiposed of in one hit. As a mob they can be a problem for a lone X-Man. The BBEG- Magneto, has several Henchmen, Pyro, Jugernaut and others, who provide the real challeneges.
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. M has an army of minions. One shot soldiers all over the place. He has several henchmen to provide the real challenge. But ignore the minions and you get a bullet in the back.
Van Helsing. Dracula has a bunch of freaky little minions all over to do his bidding. One hit and they are done. His brides and the werewolf are his henchmen who provide the real challenges for Van Helsing.
2) The game is supposed to be a challenge, not a cake walk for the characters. If the biggest threat is a bunch of mindless jerks who might possibly hurt the PCs before getting mowed down, it's not really a challenge. It gives me visions of the "Rambo" segment from Weird Al's UHF or the Galactic Police from Hitchiker's shooting at the heroes behind the computer console. I mean come on, players; show some actual cajones ... not the fake ones that "minion rules" calls forth.
Minions are not the biggest threat. That is why they are minions. For example
The PCs enter a chamber full of sword wielding soldier orcs, behind them stand three Ogres and an Ogre Magi, and you know the next room has the Lich who is watching and learning. The PCs could just ignore the Orcs if they want. But then the Orcs start scoring hits. Not much damage but enough. The PCs each get surrounded by at least 8 orcs each. Their movement is halted. They MUST fight the Orcs. The Ogres laugh and take pot shots with magic items and spells, just adding to the misery. Finally the PCs have eliminated the pesky minions with a couple of spells (which they no longer have for the BBEG fight). The henchmen wade into the fray with the wounded PCs. The fight gets dangerous, but there is no real doubt how it will end. Then the Lich opens the doors, full of prepped spells and potions and ready to deal with the PCs who at best have half their HP and resources available. Now the PCs go "Oh crap this is going to hurt!"
Or the PCs open the door and the Lich is caught surprised. He has no minions of henchmen available. The PCs charge in and surround him. The casters open up with their most powerful spells. The Lich tries to retaliate against one or two PCs. But the next round he is finished off. The PCs rejoice and loot the cool potions, scrolls and other items from the easily dispatched Lich.
Which one is Monty Haul? Which one is a cake walk? Certainly not the one that builds the scene with minions and henchmen and the BBEG.
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On the one hand, there's a certain powerful / action hero fun to be had from flinging a flask of Alchemist's Fire, and killing 9 Goblins, because even the splash damage killed those in the surrounding areas, with a gratuitous explosion and fiery goblin bodies flying in all directions (perhaps with one screaming, on fire, running around, just for comic effect).
On the other hand, if Goblins are supposed to be a threat to villagers and stuff, having a housecat be able to kill three of them in a round (since it's minimum damage is 1 hp, and it gets three attacks) would be kinda silly...
I think I'd simulate the effects by having some low-morale minions that don't necessarily *die* after taking a point of splash damage from Alchemist's Fire, but definitely run around screaming and cease being effective threats. 'Cause it *does* sound cool to have the Goblins running around on fire, screaming and jumping and attacking each other in their panic, but the 1 hp thing doesn't really work for me. A Con 10 1d8 Goblin might only have 4 or 5 hp anyway, which is close enough to a one-shot kill for many characters.
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Well, I kind of figure any monster with less than 2HD is already a minion :)
But you are absolutely correct. 1HP seems silly. 10HP seems a tiny bit high. So say 4-5 HP for minions.
Also, what do you do for XP? Do they count at all?
Personally I prefer awarding XP based upon ECL, and not CR. I would prefer the CR be used only as a construct mechanism for building an encounter. In which case how would we designate mion CR for building an encounter. Is it worth 1 ECL point?
How are they doing encounter building in Beta? I guess we need to wait and see before we can discuss it much.
monsters just have to make a fortitude save vs the damage just dealt or die.
Because making an extra roll is harder than comparing damage versus HP? This is to me just silly.they can just spend a standard action to boost another nearby creature's attack and/or damage without any special roll.I can see this. It's easy enough to house rule that they can take 10 on this though. This is a good idea as a monster feat to make it easy fro DMs to implement.
I instead make a single Reflex save at a -4 penalty for the minion closest to the blast origin, then use the same total with a +2 bonus for the next closest minion and that total with a +2 bonus for the next closest minion and so on for all the minions in the blast.Lets see roll, apply modifier, subtract 4, add 2 for the next one, 2 for the next... I would much rather grab a fistful of D20s and count how many are below the DCs and cross off that number of minis from the table. Less math that way. I suppose the 'minion' method is better for the D20 deprived DMs. But what DM worth his salt has less than 6 d20s?
They are exciting for the same reason why many monsters are exciting for me. They are another tool for creating unique encounters. To me, they are as much a challenge to create as many other unique monsters. I could make my own attempt, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see Paizo produce a better, cleaner minion monster that I wouldn't have thought of.Even though I don't see this as near the issue you do I wouldn't mind some monster feats or a template that you could add to creatures to accomplish this. It really belongs in the Pathfinder Big Ass Book O' Monsters though and beyond the cool name it's a ways off.
On the one hand, there's a certain powerful / action hero fun to be had from flinging a flask of Alchemist's Fire, and killing 9 Goblins, because even the splash damage killed those in the surrounding areas, with a gratuitous explosion and fiery goblin bodies flying in all directions (perhaps with one screaming, on fire, running around, just for comic effect).
hehe. excellent.
Erm, granted that I'm not especially familliar with the minion rules but.. What would the CR be of a paizo minion? Would it be X-less than a normal creature of it's type? This seems inherently problematic to me. Perhaps I'm designing an encounter for high level PCs, and I want to drop some CR7s down to 'minion' status. Lets just use minions as CRs -3 because thats what somebody suggested. Ok, so I have effectively CR4 minions, cool. Lets say my party is level 10.
So I whip out my trusty encounter table, I want a hard fight with the BBEG at CR10. Table says I should add 9-16 of my minions. OK, cool. Minion selection.
Lets make them Hill Giants. Cool, because I want this fight to be a bit more difficult, lets use 14. Sweet, got my encounter.
And that's all well and good. ... OR... my encounter could pit the party up against 14 Medusas. Hilarity ensues as all PCs are turned to stone in a flurry of fortitude saves.
Point being, that monsters with unique abilities are going to be very hard to use as minions, particularly anything that has some sort of Save-or-die effect on it. Even just damagers.. I don't want to even *think* about somebody makeing Pyrohydra minions... oh -yes I do- I suppose instead of the Medusas I could add in 14 6-headed Pyrohydras. Now, 84 breath weapons and 252 d6's of damage later.... my party is deep fried. How about their defensive ability too? Being immune to fire as a minion ain't bad at all. Fast Healing? I they're going to be just awful to take out... much more of a challenge than those poor hill giants I mentioned earlier...
and that's what I call 'bad for the cr system' and what's bad for the cr system is bad for the game.
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The current method of assigning XP and encounter design does not include a way to easily design published adventures using Minions and Henchmen.
I have 20 mummys in the encounter, they are listed as CR1. As a GM I shake my head and go, that is a typo, they are CR5, so I award XP as a CR5 when they were really minions and were really CR1 for my Lvl 5 party.
I had three Night Hags which were Henchmen in this scenario and instead of the usual CR5, they were really CR3s.
The Succubus at CR7 was really the BBEG.
So the scenario, by current rules would award XP for 20 CR5s, 3 CR5s, and 1 CR7, but as it was intended the scenario was reall 20 CR1s with 3 CR3s and a CR7. That is a huge XP difference, not to mention a power difference in the encounter.
What Minion and Henchman rules would do is open up encounter design to something more than just staying with critters of CRX for LvlX characters.
By the same token we can take a kobold and make him a Henchman, instead of a CR1/4 he becomes a CR 6. Creating higher level Henchmen is easier now than creating lower level ones.
I see rules along these lines making far more dynamic encounters, rather than the standard and occasionally boring scenario of 4-5 PCs against at most 3 or 4 bad guys.
Well, I use True20, and love the minion rules. Before saying "minion rules suck", people should try them out first.
An important thing to remember is that something ca be a taraditional NPC in one encounter, and a minion in another. For example, in Burnt Offerings the goblins attacking during the Festival were not Minions. Afterwards, the goblins became minions and the classed goblins remained as tougher monsters. Finally, when the PCs were storming Thistletop, only the named goblins weren't minions.
Basically, after the third goblin fight, it just wasn't fun for anybody to require 2-3 hits to bring down a measly goblin. It was a lot more fun to send a lot more goblins at them, which were a credible threat but could be one-shotted most of the time. I didn't have to track their health, given the binary nature of their status (making it a lot easier to run for me as a GM), and the players had a tough encounter in which they got to feel as badasses. Minion doesn't equal cakewalk.
Of course I think Minion rules work better with a Damage save mechanic than with hitpoints, which might color my opinion somewhat.
For some people I understand this is a deal breaker, because they rather have absolute rules for how the world works, and a creature changing how it works based on encounter decisions might rub the wrong way. But I believe they can be a valuable tool for other GMs.
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Well, I use True20, and love the minion rules. Before saying "minion rules suck", people should try them out first.
An important thing to remember is that something ca be a taraditional NPC in one encounter, and a minion in another. For example, in Burnt Offerings the goblins attacking during the Festival were not Minions. Afterwards, the goblins became minions and the classed goblins remained as tougher monsters. Finally, when the PCs were storming Thistletop, only the named goblins weren't minions.
Basically, after the third goblin fight, it just wasn't fun for anybody to require 2-3 hits to bring down a measly goblin. It was a lot more fun to send a lot more goblins at them, which were a credible threat but could be one-shotted most of the time. I didn't have to track their health, given the binary nature of their status (making it a lot easier to run for me as a GM), and the players had a tough encounter in which they got to feel as badasses. Minion doesn't equal cakewalk.
Of course I think Minion rules work better with a Damage save mechanic than with hitpoints, which might color my opinion somewhat.
For some people I understand this is a deal breaker, because they rather have absolute rules for how the world works, and a creature changing how it works based on encounter decisions might rub the wrong way. But I believe they can be a valuable tool for other GMs.
Personally, if the rules get in the way of teh story you toss the rules and go with it.
monsters just have to make a fortitude save vs the damage just dealt or die.Because making an extra roll is harder than comparing damage versus HP? This is to me just silly.
What? No! I did not have a problem with comparing the damage total vs. the HP of the creature.
I have a problem with recording damage for 8+ creatures and remembering which one had which damage total.
They are exciting for the same reason why many monsters are exciting for me. They are another tool for creating unique encounters. To me, they are as much a challenge to create as many other unique monsters. I could make my own attempt, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see Paizo produce a better, cleaner minion monster that I wouldn't have thought of.Even though I don't see this as near the issue you do I wouldn't mind some monster feats or a template that you could add to creatures to accomplish this. It really belongs in the Pathfinder Big Ass Book O' Monsters though and beyond the cool name it's a ways off.
Except it would seem that some people are doing their best to encourage Paizo never to do anything involving the word "minion" right now.
What? No! I did not have a problem with comparing the damage total vs. the HP of the creature.
I have a problem with recording damage for 8+ creatures and remembering which one had which damage total.
I guess I just find managing HP for a few monsters less intrusive than rolling a save every time a creature takes damage. I find printing out the sheets and having check boxes for HP works quite well for large groups.
Except it would seem that some people are doing their best to encourage Paizo never to do anything involving the word "minion" right now.
Why does it need to have the word 'minion' in it? By starting out the discussion referencing "I want XXXXX from 4e" you start out alienating a lot of people who don't want to have anything to do with forth edition. It also makes the assumption that people will instantly understand WTF you are talking about when many of us have not read the 4th edition rules.
Maybe a better approach would have been to talk about the general idea of improving combat with large groups of critters then present some of the ideas in question.
Personally, if the rules get in the way of teh story you toss the rules and go with it.
That would be my cup of tea as well, but I've been in enough "sense of disbelief" and "consistency" arguments not to realize there is a group with opposed views. :D