However, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they do not represent 50% of the race or gender that they belong to do they?
You're claiming that half the black people in comics, scifi, and fantasy have metal arms?
Lordie.
I can't even get started on the counter examples for THAT one. But just for B5, Firefly, DS9 here's some I can recall with no robotic limbs - Sisko, Benjamin, Worf, Doctor Franklin, Book, the assassin in the movie, Jason Ironheart. Not finding any artificial-limbed black characters on those shows, but quite possible I've missed some.
I appreciate that making a list of black people with cybernetic limbs can make it SEEM like it happens all the time, but as I demonstrated with my brainstormed list (not anywhere near an exhaustive one), there's an ample number of non-black limb replacements out there too.
Interesting note on Theros - my mental picture of his art is apparently not matching the books. Can't be bothered to look for the picture I recall, tho.
I wouldn't object to the idea that scifi (and fantasy, and comics) has been very white-male centric. It's an issue I have with the genre myself. I just don't think your artifical limb thesis holds water.
Russ Taylor... are you in texas right now? I might know you! LOL.
Ahh... okay here's the link to theros http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote/picturesd/dragnlnc/forging.jpg
but you can do an image search.
Worf? Lets not start talking about worf. Should I then expand the definition to include obvious deformities and grizzly deaths?
Seriously though... You have me at a disadvantage, I skipped Ds9 and firefly. But for worf there's cripple jordy.
Again I'm just asking for a black male iconic. If its a non-issue like everyone tries to make it then why not?
So... Barack obama is a shoanti along with tiger woods and mariah carey, nicole richie ad the rock?
*Throws up hands*
To hell with it. I give up. *sigh*
pass me that white bread...please.
'Insular'? I thought the Shoanti had been colonized to some degree? We would expect to see greater racial diversity amongst a colonized people. I'm not familiar with all the published history of Golarion so far but to the extent that there has been massive migrations, cataclysms, war, colonization, exploration, and trade their is going to be greater genetic diversity.
I suppose I might be missing something, but as I read them they appear to have warred with pretty much every other culture they come into contact with; they dislike Varisians, they hate the Chelish, they hate the Nolanders, they hate the Linnorm-Landers... Their standoffishness is a large reason they're so hated in Korvosa, IIRC.
From the RotRL player's guide:
"[The Shoanti are] a turbulent people adhering to traditions unchanged in hundreds of years...The Shoanti once held all of Varisia as their own, sharing it only with the Varisians, whom they coldly accept as distant cousins. The coming of explorers and colonists from Cheliax changed all this, though, sparking an age of bloody warfare."
Some quotes from "People of the Storval Plateu", towards the back of "A History of Ashes" (book 4 of CotCT):
"The essence of "Shoanti" is more of a set of warrior traditions than it is a true racial group"
"The Shoanti are not one people but many"
"Shoanti possess widely varying skin tones, reflecting the broad diversity of their ancestry"
It goes on, and on, and on... you get the idea :-).
You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.
The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.
SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!
Uh-huh Thank you editor in chief!
|
Worf? Lets not start talking about worf. Should I then expand the definition to include obvious deformities and grizzly deaths?
Seriously though... You have me at a disadvantage, I skipped Ds9 and firefly. But for worf there's cripple jordy.
Again I'm just asking for a black male iconic. If its a non-issue like everyone tries to make it then why not?
So... Barack obama is a shoanti along with tiger woods and mariah carey, nicole richie ad the rock?*Throws up hands*
To hell with it. I give up. *sigh*
pass me that white bread...please.
I think you’re being a little disingenuous in implying that the Paizo iconics are “whitebread”. Let’s take a look at the human ones – this is my take on how their appearance relates to real world ethnicities – others may of course disagree or have their own take:
Valeros: sort of Mediterranean looking
Seoni: “exotic” looking – maybe vaguely Eastern European in appearance, apart from the hair colour?
Kyra: Middle Eastern appearance
Ezran: Caucasian / Nordic looking
Seelah: Black / Ethnic African in appearance
Sajan: Indian or central Asian in appearance
Amiri: Caucasian in appearance
That’s a pretty good mix, but before you start worrying too much that there is no black man, there are several other large real world groups missing too; far east Asian, Polynesian, native American (north or south) and lots of others.
But nor do I think it is Paizo’s responsibility to include someone of every conceivable human ethnicity (of both genders). To do so would a) be a logistical nightmare, b) risk descending into tokenism and c) by implication tend to tie Golarion’s people too closely to real world ethnicities and nationalities, something that Paizo has been at pains to avoid since the beginning.
Sauron didn't need mercenaries, Tolkein made him need mercenaries.
And the ring didn't *need* to be destroyed in Mount Doom except that Tolkien made it. And Souron didn't *need* to be evil except that that's how Tolkien wrote it. And Middle Earth didn't need to exist, except that that's how Tolkien wrote it.
Just because Tolkien is the writer doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Sauron wanted dominion over the whole world. Why *wouldn't* he have taken every advantage he could get?
He could have summoned elementals, or simply had more orcs.
No he couldn't have, and he already had. He just wanted more.
And conveniently, every "evil human people" was of non-caucasion origin.
Not at all. We're only really given three large human nations (Rohan, Gondor, and the Easterlings), but there are also the (Caucasian) men that Saruman recruited to help in his conquest of Rohan (some of whom went off an scourged the Shire at the end), and as I recall there were other caucasian men on Sauron's side at the battle of Pelennor Fields as well.
He could have had rampaging hordes of pseudo-russians or something of the like.
Who says pseudo-russians have a place in the world? And it would have been not racist if they were Russian instead of generically eastern?
The issue is not the constructed world of Middle Earth (which has logical consistency, I agree), the issue is the man who made it they way he did and why.
Having not read an extensive amount of Tolkien's letters, diaries, or mind, I can't comment on why he made it the way he did, other than to observe that he apparently tried to make the world realistic and consistent, which might entail certain things, like mercenaries from a foreign land (who would necessarily be of a different racial makeup than our protagonists).
I also agree, LotR is supposed to be Europe at War (and is very Euro-centric). And people in real-life Europe, his audience, did know about racial diversity.
In the thousands-of-years BC? Probably not so much.
I am not saying that LotR needs ethnic diversity (it was a product of its time, where people were not as concerned with such things). What a reader today should consider is how everyone who isn't white IS portrayed when they DO appear.
Why can't they just be concerned with reading a good story? That is Tolkien's stated goal, after all: to offer a good read.
Also, consider how all the non-Euro peoples fall for Sauron's lies, even without the rings power.
Have you read the Silmarillion? Sauron is a darn good liar. For the longest time, he had had everyone fooled, even the Elves. Even after betraying them a couple times, they kept taking him back. It took long, hard experience to convince them they he couldn't be trusted. Why in the world would that degree of hard-earned distrust disseminate instantly, much less at all, throughout the entire world, particularly when travel is so very inconvenient?
"Sure, let's believe the guy with the big smoking volcano who exists as an incorporeal spirit and commands legions of orcs." By the time of LotR, Sauron had long dropped his "nice guy" routine.
Maybe he just asked them to stop stereotyping. I mean, it's not like any of them had ever seen Mount Doom before. Though could you really blame a country for having a natural-disaster-waiting-to-happen in its borders if you didn't have the hard-won knowledge of the evil power of its leader?
|
You're claiming that half the black people in comics, scifi, and fantasy have metal arms?
Lordie.
I think you might mean "Sweet Christmas!"
A very partial list of non-cyber limbed superheroes (although there are some techies on the list):
Luke Cage (Power Man)
Mister Terrific
Jakeem Thunder
Falcon
Prowler
Black Lightning
Amazing Man (I, II, and III)
War Machine
John Stewart (Green Lantern)
Quantum (of Quantum and Woodie)
Brown Hornet
Rocket Racer (lame, but I've always liked 18th stringers)
Nighthawk (from Supreme Power)
Blur (also from Supreme Power)
Cloak
Triatalon
Battlestar
Vox
Bronze Tiger
Meteor Man
Mr. Miracle
Brother Voodoo
Black Goliath
Mister Bones (not that you can really tell)
Father Time (well, sometimes)
Black Panther
Steel
Natt the Hat (from Hitman)
Synch
Sunspot
Night Thrasher
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
You're claiming that half the black people in comics, scifi, and fantasy have metal arms?
Lordie.
I think you might mean "Sweet Christmas!"
A very partial list of non-cyber limbed superheroes (although there are some techies on the list):
** spoiler omitted **
How many of those were saved from a life of crime or poverty by benevolent powers, other superheroes, or a government agency? ;-)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
People, particularly barbaric people, fear those different than themselves.
Children fear those different from those they are familiar with, true, up until about the age of 8 when many grow up. Some don't. Those are called racists.
... Of all people, barbarians most clearly demonstrate pretty strict genetic trends; so tribes of 'black' barbarians from the jungle and 'white' barbarians from the glaciers make sense.
I think geographically isolated peoples would tend to be more phenotypically uniform.
Worf? Lets not start talking about worf. Should I then expand the definition to include obvious deformities and grizzly deaths?
Seriously though... You have me at a disadvantage, I skipped Ds9 and firefly. But for worf there's cripple jordy.
Again I'm just asking for a black male iconic. If its a non-issue like everyone tries to make it then why not?
So... Barack obama is a shoanti along with tiger woods and mariah carey, nicole richie ad the rock?*Throws up hands*
To hell with it. I give up. *sigh*
pass me that white bread...please.I think you’re being a little disingenuous in implying that the Paizo iconics are “whitebread”. Let’s take a look at the human ones – this is my take on how their appearance relates to real world ethnicities – others may of course disagree or have their own take:
Valeros: sort of Mediterranean looking
Seoni: “exotic” looking – maybe vaguely Eastern European in appearance, apart from the hair colour?
Kyra: Middle Eastern appearance
Ezran: Caucasian / Nordic looking
Seelah: Black / Ethnic African in appearance
Sajan: Indian or central Asian in appearance
Amiri: Caucasian in appearanceThat’s a pretty good mix, but before you start worrying too much that there is no black man, there are several other large real world groups missing too; far east Asian, Polynesian, native American (north or south) and lots of others.
But nor do I think it is Paizo’s responsibility to include someone of every conceivable human ethnicity (of both genders). To do so would a) be a logistical nightmare, b) risk descending into tokenism and c) by implication tend to tie Golarion’s people too closely to real world ethnicities and nationalities, something that Paizo has been at pains to avoid since the beginning.
I did not insinuate anything about paizo or its employees, i've gave up on arguing with racists, I figure you'll always been there as will your hate/fear of Black men. Thats generic "you" by the way not the specific "You" in this instance.
Now YOU obviously haven't read the thread or ignore key parts of my statements the address was made that it is an "easy" out on the diversity scale to use a black woman, than a black man. Further its a known out. Thats not a slight against paizo who don't have any black dudes working in the design dept, cause really I'm sure they prolly don't know that.
You also want to play the diversity game, which I've explained is a common way to cirumvent the idea of a black male, typically trotted out by closet racists... I said that before anyone even made the argument you just made.
Finally, you are white right? You assume I'm black most likely because of the strength of my aruguments (though thats more about me being on vacation than anything, but lets assume for a second that I am.
Now I'm the black man arguing that his race is misrepresented/underrepresented.
Let the Polynesians then speak for themselves and native americans then speak for themselves. Anyone?
Because only white people make the argument "Well why the black man? Why not a hispanic" because at root even today many whites are afraid of blacks... which you know is kinda stupid what with the cultural problems they seem to have but in brief I'd like to direct you to this. (You specific if you feel I'm call you a racists which I'm not mind you I'm just stating you're using an oft trotted out racist argument) There is a different level of racism faced daily by those dudes.
Just so you understand what I mean.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HRfjLfyXYlA&feature=related
this one too...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUHCLtnYFQ&feature=related
Misplaced fear. Seriously.
People, particularly barbaric people, fear those different than themselves.Children fear those different from those they are familiar with, true, up until about the age of 8 when many grow up. Some don't. Those are called racists.
... Of all people, barbarians most clearly demonstrate pretty strict genetic trends; so tribes of 'black' barbarians from the jungle and 'white' barbarians from the glaciers make sense.I think geographically isolated peoples would tend to be more phenotypically uniform.Yes, they are called racists in modern society, when evidence of the harmlessness of others is readily available to anyone not actively ignoring it. We have whole organizations devoted to debunking racial distrust, and they have the internet, television, and radio to broadcast their messages. But this is assumed to be a pseudo-medieval world; individuals from more primitive cultures, and poorer individuals from advanced ones, generally speaking, are too busy working to grow up intellectually.
Nobles and such have sufficient education to realize that elves aren't evil fairies who want to steal your children and replace them with changelings, but the serfs working their land or cooking in their kitchens aren't going to have that opportunity. All they have to work with is stories of elven magic and that odd pointy-eared child who's taking so long to grow up in the next town over.
Moreover, Golarion is sufficiently dangerous that people have very good reasons to be distrustful of outsiders. The Chelish traffic with devils, Varisian Sczarni rob and murder, elves cut down those who trespass on their lands; Not all of them, certainly, but enough to matter. A farmer in Taldor has every reason to be suspicious of a traveler from Cheliax, lest his soul or property be forfeit. Even discounting dangers from ordinary people, mad wizards walk around wearing harmless faces and monsters capable of taking on all manner...
Interesting...
Sauron didn't need mercenaries, Tolkein made him need mercenaries. He could have summoned elementals, or simply had more orcs. And conveniently, every "evil human people" was of non-caucasion origin. He could have had rampaging hordes of pseudo-russians or something of the like. The issue is not the constructed world of Middle Earth (which has logical consistency, I agree), the issue is the man who made it they way he did and why.I also agree, LotR is supposed to be Europe at War (and is very Euro-centric). And people in real-life Europe, his audience, did know about racial diversity. I am not saying that LotR needs ethnic diversity (it was a product of its time, where people were not as concerned with such things). What a reader today should consider is how everyone who isn't white IS portrayed when they DO appear. The elves were from far to the West, they could have been based on Amerindians as far as Tolkein was concerned. Also, consider how...
One of my favorite passages in LOTR is the scene where Frodo comes across a dead Easterling warrior, shortly before he's captured by Faramir's men. He wonders where the dead man came from, what his name was and whether he was truly evil at heart. I also think Sauron's use of mercenaries was internally consistent, in the sense that his first objective was to destroy the kingdom of Gondor, a goal shared by several other cultures, such as the Haradrim and the Corsairs of Umbar. There's nothing on the page to suggest that the overall character of those cultures was particularly fiendish (after all, a lot of perfectly fine cultures have engaged in offensive wars in our history, too).
I wouldn't read too much into the connection of Middle Earth into an European political context, largely because the author himself strongly denies any allegorical meanings of his work in no uncertain terms. Of course, we could choose to disbelieve the author in this regard, which I'm not sure would be a worthwhile premise.
|
|
Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.Not a good example, people went to see the robots, not Shia.
That's exactly why it's a good example. Nobody cared who the kid was, it didn't matter. Could been a white kid, a black kid, an Asian kid, whatever. It made no difference to the part. But of course it went to a white kid, because it pretty much always goes to a white kid.
If something from outer space or out of a fairytale or from a magic world, comes to Earth, is peaceful, but needs the help of a local child to defeat some evil, that local child will be a white male. You can bet big money on it safely. He may have a black friend, he may have a sister, and his friend or sister may even be smarter than he is, but the hero will always be the white boy. For every counter-example you could name, I can name a dozen or more examples that illustrate the point.
It's funny, I see the point being made but doesn't everyone get stereotyped? How about Asian men? How many movies can you think of with an Asian lead that did not involve martial arts or samurai? My Asian friend always gripes about that.
Heck, I'm sick of Irish characters always being drunks in so many shows and movies.
Hey, I'm Italian. You can't even believe how sick I am of hearing about the Mafia, like we invented organized crime or something. The mafia only became so powerful because Italians weren't recognized as "white" when we first came to this country in large numbers, and so we couldn't equal protection under the law, and that allowed the mob that preyed on Italian immigrants to grow so large. My great-grandfather was chased out of New York by the Mafia (they wanted to use his shoestore as a message drop location, he left NY because he couldn't say no but didn't want to be involved). Not only do I have to put up with Italians being represented as either mobsters or guidos (like Joey Tribiani on Friends, or every role ever played by that idiot Tony Danza) or chefs who speak in fractured English, my friends all want to hear about cool mob stories from my family, and when I tell them "My family has never been involved in the mafia, we're from Northern Italy, the Mafia is from Sicily." they react like I pee'd in their cheerios. Like I let them down.
Don't even get me started about the time a friend of mine forgot I'm Italian and told me that he suspected that the two brothers who owned a local restaurant were mobbed up. His reasoning? "I think they're Italian, so you know, they probably have mob ties." They were actually Albanian, and not connected to the mob at all.
But the thing is, at the end of the day, while I may have to tolerate the occasional asinine comment and roll my eyes at the endless parade of dumb stereotypes, I don't have to worry that someone is going to tear up my application as soon as I walk out of an interview with a hearty "Yeah, like we'd hire a wop here." I don't have to worry that some racist yahoo is going to jump me and beat me up for being Italian (my grandparents worried about that, the Klan burned a cross in their lawn when they lived in Alabama for being Catholics, back in the 40's). I don't worry that my non-Italian friends are hiding anti-Italian sentiments from me. I know they don't make jokes about my ethnicity behind my back. I know that at the end of the day, the occasional dumb comment and worn out stereotypes are the begining and the end of the prejudice and bigotry I experience as an Italian.
If I were black, then that would just be the tip of the iceberg. I don't think there's much to be gained by pretending that Irish-Americans taking a few knocks about being whiskey-soaked wife-beaters compares to the very real white on black racism that still plagues this country.
(Oh, and I'm also glad that the Germans totally take the heat for the whole fascism thing. Because technically, we Italians invented that. But somehow history gave us a pass on that one, and it stuck to the Germans, who will probably get crap about being Goose Steeping Aryan Rat Bastards for at least the next 50 years. And I'd rather have people think "Mafia!" when they think of my people than "Nazis!")
I'm an Irish-American, and I CAN'T drink whiskey (just the smell makes me ill), and I'd never hit my wife!
She knows Karate... she'd kick my ass.
Anyhow, although I am a far cry from the stereotype, I still can appreciate Family Guy's anti-Irish episode (the scene with the plane landing on a bottle-covered runway is classic).
Also, Shia Labeouf is a far cry from the traditional 'pretty-boy' whitebread, blonde-haired, blue-eyed All-American college boy (a stereotype that strangely parraleles that of the Nazis). He has a definate 'ethnic' look about him, and its because of his not-so-perfect looks that I can appraciate him more as an actor.
Personally, I don't care what 'race' is on the cover of my products, and I've never thought more or less of something because of that. These games we play represent fantasy worlds, and on a planet with dozens - perhaps hundreds - of other sentient species, I don't think humans would be so quick to seperate themselves into sub-groups as we do here in the RW.
As long as the art is cool, inspiring, and non-derivitive, I can care less who is is doing what to whom... although I do find the whole anti-Redgar crusade by WotC designers funny as hell.
‘Cos when I’m at a table with a group of scantily clad women, D&D’s the first thing on my mind.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I'd asked most of the girl-gamers I know personally to put more clothes on.
Moreover, Golarion is sufficiently dangerous that people have very good reasons to be distrustful of outsiders. The Chelish traffic with devils, Varisian Sczarni rob and murder, elves cut down those who trespass on their lands; Not all of them, certainly, but enough to matter. A farmer in Taldor has every reason to be suspicious of a traveler from Cheliax, lest his soul or property be forfeit. Even discounting dangers from ordinary people, mad wizards walk around wearing harmless faces and monsters capable of taking on all manner of forms wander the night. If I met a strange person on the street and immediately became hostile towards them when they approached me because I feared they'd rob me or somesuch, I'm just being paranoid. If Farmer Grump meets that same unusual individual on his way to market, there's a very real possibility he *is* going to be robbed.Bah, I'm ranting again. Do you at least see what I'm getting at? Yes, such feelings are racist. And racism is probably one of the most common evils of a medieval world. Heck, dwarves and elves are renowned for racism. Dwarves and gnomes get a numerical bonus for their racial prejudice. There's an entire class built around racial hatred. A racist in modern society is a despicable individual too eager to hate to see the truth. A racist in a fantasy setting, for your average commoner, is simply uneducated and overly cautious.
I see what you are getting at, but Golarion is NOT the Middle Ages. You can get info and stories from more than one source, and most bards and clerics of the good and neutral gods are probably not encouraging a myopic worldview as the church did in the Middle Ages. The Legends and myths of the Golarion are portraying many good things in addition to evil things. And even farmers are bound to hear dozens of those myths and stories. I think the Mendevian crusades are widely known. Gods of Farming and Healing, and others that are probably popular with farmers are of good alignment, so the clergy won't encourage racism. So while the lazy and ignorant may still take all strangers for evil, the others will know that the stranger could be even the adventurer that helps to get rid of the true evil. And for every mad wizard there are two just plying their trade and one more hunting evil magic.
Also there is a big difference between being cautious and being suspicious of every stranger. Suspecting evil in strangers also has a tendency of producing evil in ones own heart. If Farmer Grump attacks the unusual individual, he might be uneducated (and wilfully ignoring all the legends and stories about the good in the world), but his deed is still evil, even if said individual is evil in alignment.
Your post might explain why racism exists, but that doesn’t make it any less evil (not that I want to imply you meaning to say that racism is not evil, I just want to present the other side of your explanation). And Farmer Grump has certainly much more opportunity than a Middle Age serf to learn that the stranger could be a hero as well as be could be a villain.
|
Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.Not a good example, people went to see the robots, not Shia.
'Cause really, how many 'racially-sensitive' whites went to see Transformers (or Indy 4, for that matter) for the *Jewish* lead? People who went to see Transformers wanted to see **** blow up and giant robots beating the crap out of each other and didn't give a crap if Shia LaBeouf (sp?) was white, black, green or purple.
Will Smith seems to get away with all sorts of 100 million dollar 4th of July blockbusters, despite that non-white skin. Heck, he even manages to survive the kiss-of-death that comes with being a known Scientologist! He gets cast as traditionally white characters in movies like Wild Wild West or I Am Legend, which is fun in a 'mixing things up' sort of way.
Maybe there are people who didn't go see the Matrix because Neo was taking his orders from a black man, but those kind of people probably don't spend a lot of time sitting around a table pretending to be an elf chick either.
One thing about racism in game worlds is that I suspect that humans would be *far* less likely to react adversely to differently-colored humans in a world that has dwarves, elves, gnomes, orcs, hobgoblins, etc. Bigotry tends to be 'me against my brother, me and my brother against our neighbor, us and our neighbor against the outsider' situation. In a world where singing goblins run riot through your village setting fire to the dogs and looking for succulent babies, I don't think your average person would give a rat's left buttock whether or not their neighbor had darker or lighter skin, so long as he's out there next to you, swinging a weapon, trying to drive those little bastards off!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
|
...lots of stuff...
Hi Khalarak, I understand what you are saying and am enjoying the friendly debate.
A couple of questions and comments though.
(1) You seem to be equating race with skin colour and genetic diversity. These two things don't actually go together very well as skin colour is a poor predictor of genetic ancestry.
(2) Since race in the way you are using it is a concept that surfaced briefly in science long after the medieval period (before being rejected by most scientists and surviving only as an invalid social concept), do we need to pay attention to theories of race at all? In the medieval period, identities were defined more by nation (or clan, or tribe, etc.) but we know that these were very, very fluid concepts and changed to suit the political climates of the time. Think about North America only 300 years after Columbus and the amount of racial mixing that had occurred.
(3) After 300 years of Chelaxian colonization, wouldn't you expect to see a great deal of integration?
(4) If people are so distrustful of things unfamiliar to them, where do half-elves come from? ;-)
(5) You suggested that 10,000 years after the fall of Thassilonia enough integration would have occurred that the Shoanti would become one race. The Shoanti defined themselves as different tribes. What if the concept of 'the Shoanti' is more a post-colonial concept like the concept of 'native Americans'. I don't imagine that pre-colonial Shoanti thought of themselves as such. Wouldn't these 'barbaric' people resist these tribes different than them?
Yes, I may be overthinking this but a fantasy world may be a safe place to think out the racial thinking that defines the 'real' world.
|
|
this is all very interesting stuff... but I still think there should be more scantily clad females :)
Of all races...like OGRES for example!
Have I already mentioned that there was a scantily clad Ogress in one of the the PF adventures?
And there is this ice cool babe from Spires of Xin Shallast that is -GASP- completely nekkid!
But you do not see any -and here I cite Nick Logue- titties!
But the thing is, at the end of the day, while I may have to tolerate the occasional asinine comment and roll my eyes at the endless parade of dumb stereotypes, I don't have to worry that someone is going to tear up my application as soon as I walk out of an interview with a hearty "Yeah, like we'd hire a wop here." I don't have to worry that some racist yahoo is going to jump me and beat me up for being Italian (my grandparents worried about that, the Klan burned a cross in their lawn when they lived in Alabama for being Catholics, back in the 40's). I don't worry that my non-Italian friends are hiding anti-Italian sentiments from me. I know they don't make jokes about my ethnicity behind my back. I know that at the end of the day, the occasional dumb comment and worn out stereotypes are the begining and the end of the prejudice and bigotry I experience as an Italian.
If I were black, then that would just be the tip of the iceberg. I don't think there's much to be gained by pretending that Irish-Americans taking a few knocks about being whiskey-soaked wife-beaters compares to the very real white on black racism that still plagues this country.
THIS.
It's really refreshing and heartening to hear someone who isnt black say this in a manner that's NOT dismissive or intended to downplay it. Thank You.
Seriously...THANK YOU.
|
One thing about racism in game worlds is that I suspect that humans would be *far* less likely to react adversely to differently-colored humans in a world that has dwarves, elves, gnomes, orcs, hobgoblins, etc. Bigotry tends to be 'me against my brother, me and my brother against our neighbor, us and our neighbor against the outsider' situation. In a world where singing goblins run riot through your village setting fire to the dogs and looking for succulent babies, I don't think your average person would give a rat's left buttock whether or not their neighbor had darker or lighter skin, so long as he's out there next to you, swinging a weapon, trying to drive those little bastards off!
Exactly. Unlike in the real world, race actually exists on Golarion. I would imagine skin colour would make very little difference to Humans on Golarion. They have enough "outsiders" to be prejudiced against without resorting to their own kind. And on top of that, they even have evil races to hate. I would imagine in such a world, the races would band together, and probably be more tolerant of other races as well (especially the non-evil ones).
|
|
That's exactly why it's a good example. Nobody cared who the kid was, it didn't matter. Could been a white kid, a black kid, an Asian kid, whatever. It made no difference to the part. But of course it went to a white kid, because it pretty much always goes to a white kid.
Ah, I misunderstood your point, I can see what you're saying.
You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.
The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.
SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!
That's something of a shame. I rather like the style of that illustration, and the general personality put forth for a few of the figures (notably the dwarf and gnome) really sort of give it some life. I understand that it's a bit stylized, but I somewhat like the style (not as a norm, but as part of a variety, I'm fine with it). I'm certainly okay with seeing newer art, but I do like that particular illustration a fair bit, so it wouldn't be *high* on my priorities list. Personally, I'd be more inclined to replace the illustration of Seoni in profile with her nipples protruding through her dress (Alpha 3 page 65). Unless it's really cold, it just feels unnecessary. I'm not opposed to the occasional titillating picture, but I prefer them to not be in that mode.
Also, since the Pathfinder iconics are owned by Paizo, and not Wizards of the Coast, we are free to make t-shirts and stickers and miniatures and stuff with abandon.
Speaking of t-shirts, I heard a rumor about Pathfinder Faction t-shirts... Any truth to the rumor? Will we be able to get them before Gen Con?
That's something of a shame. I rather like the style of that illustration, and the general personality put forth for a few of the figures (notably the dwarf and gnome) really sort of give it some life. I understand that it's a bit stylized, but I somewhat like the style (not as a norm, but as part of a variety, I'm fine with it). I'm certainly okay with seeing newer art, but I do like that particular illustration a fair bit, so it wouldn't be *high* on my priorities list. Personally, I'd be more inclined to replace the illustration of Seoni in profile with her nipples protruding through her dress (Alpha 3 page 65). Unless it's really cold, it just feels unnecessary. I'm not opposed to the occasional titillating picture, but I prefer them to not be in that mode.You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.
The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.
SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!
I personally love the nipples. LOL.
Seriously though are all the elves on glolarion really that tall someone mentioned earlier that they were taller than the orc, so I went back and checked, those are some massively tall elves/elves.|
|
But the thing is, at the end of the day, while I may have to tolerate the occasional asinine comment and roll my eyes at the endless parade of dumb stereotypes, I don't have to worry that someone is going to tear up my application as soon as I walk out of an interview with a hearty "Yeah, like we'd hire a wop here."
Ironically, my favorite 'racist' jokes come from family gatherings. The Italian side regale each other with 'dago' jokes, the French side inflict 'frog' jokes on each other, etc. Bigotry against European-descended folk seems to be pretty much dead in the water (a brief spate of administration-approved anti-French sentiment notwithstanding).
I'd find it hard to be predjudiced against Italians anyway. A lot of them are hawt. Monica Belluci promotes racial healing.
|
|
If something from outer space or out of a fairytale or from a magic world, comes to Earth, is peaceful, but needs the help of a local child to defeat some evil, that local child will be a white male.Lilo and Stitch?
Ooh, that was an awesome movie!
The problem is, one can take offense in either direction. If the magical thing comes to earth from outer space / faerie-land / whatever and helps a white child reconnect with their estranged family or stop the evil land developers from stealing daddy's farm or whatever, it's fairly standard fare. If the child is ethnic, and some magical thing comes floating down and 'rescues' the little native american kid's reservation from the evil mining corporation, it looks like a gussied up version of the 'great white hope' story, where some more civilized or sophisticated 'better person' has to show up and save the poor benighted savages.
To me, that's problem number one. Very, very few portrayals of characters *give* offense. Anyone can *take* offense at *any* portrayal of a character. If they act 'stereotypically black,' he's a caricature, and it's racist. If the black character acts just like a white character, he's an 'oreo' and just as racist. If there aren't any black characters at all, that's considered racist as well.
|
Way back in 1989, the first RPG that seemed to take racial issues seriously and explore them in a different and non-inflamatory light was Shadowrun. Racism was central to game, black and white being replaced with human and non human. I know some have said that change belittled racism but I disagree. One game we played in was 100% about racism. My own character was a racist and hated all orcs. The GM had an orc family move into the next apartment and every racist "justification" I could come up with we tackled and tore down. The entire time we knew exactly what we were doing... we were exploring racism in America and the justifications and opposition to it.
Well, we can even invent our own races. It's fantasy after all.
Red hair, yellow skin and european facial features? Why not? :D
And what is the actual elf size? The pic seems like it was inspired by WoW a little ;)
|
|
Way back in 1989, the first RPG that seemed to take racial issues seriously and explore them in a different and non-inflamatory light was Shadowrun. Racism was central to game, black and white being replaced with human and non human. I know some have said that change belittled racism but I disagree. One game we played in was 100% about racism. My own character was a racist and hated all orcs. The GM had an orc family move into the next apartment and every racist "justification" I could come up with we tackled and tore down. The entire time we knew exactly what we were doing... we were exploring racism in America and the justifications and opposition to it.
My brother and I are having a good time using D&D in the same way. His kobold character's warren was wiped out by Duergar and he was taken as a slave. He has a tremendous fear and distrust for all dwarves (especially gray-skinned ones).
But slowly, his best friend is becoming a dwarf barbarian (also outcast from his family for being reckless). We constantly make in-game character references to out situation and other "races".
Going back to Monte's original arguments, RPGs should be the best place to do this! We shouldn't feel limited by the art, but by our imaginations (with SUPPORT from the art). The 3rd Ed. art waS a step in the right direction (excepting some issues) and Pathfinder takes another step forward.
In response to the Italian/German comments: I can attest to this, I was teased constantly for my family being German back in grade school (early 80s). "Nazi" was thrown about quite carelessly, and being part-German, I knew what it meant (even if kids didn't) and that hurt, especially since my Opa was forced to serve in the Wehrmacht.
Also, living in Canada many Italian-Canadians refer to other non-Italian-Canadians as "mangiacakes". Now, the literal meaning of the word is harmless, but the fact a great deal of people from a specific ethnic background apply it to a certain group of other people makes it racist. Things like "oh, spaghetti with no sauce, that is so mangiacake." I'm not saying that this is any way compares to the black experience (or Jewish, or First Nations, etc) but it is a small racist thought process that is "acceptable" because it is white-on-white. But every time I hear it, I feel insulted just because I am not Italian.
|
|
along the lines of the Italian-Canadians (which just boggles the mind...Italians speaking French...)
Anyway...
I grew up in Texas, and we were pretty much intollerant of everyone. You had Texans and you had foreigners, like those damned Americans...
If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.
I moved away :)
|
|
Well, we can even invent our own races. It's fantasy after all.
Red hair, yellow skin and european facial features? Why not? :D
And what is the actual elf size? The pic seems like it was inspired by WoW a little ;)
Average height/weight for a male elf is about 5'11" and 133 pounds (about my size actually lol)
So the image in the book is waaaay off. They're more like scrawny teenagers than Night Elves.
|
|
If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.
I moved away :)
Yeah, I grew up in Oklahoma. Any time we had a game in Texas we got to hear the 'steers and queers' joke. Yawn. Now that I live in New England, it's a lot funnier to me, sort of like a bunch of Hessians and Prussians arguing over who is the most German.
I'm sure there was some state/territory we looked down on, but I don't remember specifically. Puerto Rico, perhaps.
|
|
I grew up in Texas, and we were pretty much intollerant of everyone. You had Texans and you had foreigners, like those damned Americans...
If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.
I know what you mean about this. Where I'm from (Northern Ontario), people believe that if you're not of European descent, then you don't belong in Canada. The amount of prejudice I've seen boggles the mind sometimes.
Hot topics right now are immigrants from the Middle East. For some reason, they get on North Ontario's nerves, even though there are none around.
That's one nice thing of having moved to Ottawa, everyone's far more accepting here.
|
|
I grew up in Texas, and we were pretty much intollerant of everyone. You had Texans and you had foreigners, like those damned Americans...
If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.
I know what you mean about this. Where I'm from (Northern Ontario), people believe that if you're not of European descent, then you don't belong in Canada. The amount of prejudice I've seen boggles the mind sometimes.
Hot topics right now are immigrants from the Middle East. For some reason, they get on North Ontario's nerves, even though there are none around.
That's one nice thing of having moved to Ottawa, everyone's far more accepting here.
//Threadjack//
Sort of like the whole NAFTA thing... ok when was the last time you bought anything made in Mexico??? Last I checked China was not part of NAFT... Who cares about NAFTA?!?
//end threadjack//
still need more scantily clad females!
I grew up in Texas, and we were pretty much intollerant of everyone. You had Texans and you had foreigners, like those damned Americans...
If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.
I know what you mean about this. Where I'm from (Northern Ontario), people believe that if you're not of European descent, then you don't belong in Canada. The amount of prejudice I've seen boggles the mind sometimes.
Hot topics right now are immigrants from the Middle East. For some reason, they get on North Ontario's nerves, even though there are none around.
That's one nice thing of having moved to Ottawa, everyone's far more accepting here.
//Threadjack//
Sort of like the whole NAFTA thing... ok when was the last time you bought anything made in Mexico??? Last I checked China was not part of NAFT... Who cares about NAFTA?!?
//end threadjack//
still need more scantily clad females!
Krome I should've know you were a good ole Texas Dwarf! +1
|
|
When I piss my Missouri friends off they say "Oh yeah forgot you are from Texas!" lol
um... back on topic...
scantily clad elves are always nice
Like this Scantily clad elf
photographed by yours truly.
Ok guys go back to arguing about racism...
scantily clad elves are always nice
Like this Scantily clad elf
...
...
Wait, what were we talking about?
scantily clad elves are always nice
Like this Scantily clad elf
photographed by yours truly.
(links are NSFW...)
H
I'll be blunt. The inescapable core of D&D -- and most modern fantasy literature -- is racist.
Could you post your definition of racist? I just want to be sure I understand where you are coming from here.
|
|
Lovecraft's murderers are degenerates who have contaminated themselves through interracial breeding.
Or interspecies as well...
You ahve to remember also that while we hold a more enlightened idea of racism, it is not just a mean way of thinking, at one time it was necessary for survival. Any one not of your tribe, not of your clan, not part of your circle was a threat, a serious threat to you, your family and way of life. There were two ways to meet that threat. First was to eliminate the threat and secondly by accepting anihilation.
To make eliminating the threat more acceptable those "others" were villified, made less than human and therefore deserving of elimination. Soldiers in Iraq, and prior wars have had problems with the deeds they did, because they recognize they killed people, not sub-human monsters. To make it easier for the mind and soul, you have to make the enemy less than human.
And that is where racism comes in. It is easier to enslave a race of humans based upon their skin color if you subhumanize them and rationalize that they deserve it. America still struggles with racism, more so than some countries, because of its role in slavery.
However, the fact that Americans recognize and struggle with racism is a sign of enlightenment. There are many other countries where racism is the norm. It just does not follow the accepted white-black concept. Many eastern nations consider their own race to be superior to all other barbarian races. They still see no problem with this.
Racism is a survival trait. One that predates modern concepts, and one that will take centuries to eliminate entirely, if ever. So, a discussion on racism must also involve discussions of ancient survival traits. If you do not have some racism, how do you fight your enemy? How do you protect your family from home invasion? If you pull that trigger, you must subhumanize the target.
In America the historical threat has been along black-white lines, but there have been ethnic battles as well. Anyone who thinks Irish descrimination is no big deal, was not the Irish man who was murdered in the early 20th century. Today we find racism being applied to Middle Easterners, Indians and Chinese. These are the miltary and economic threats of today.
So, it is easy to say racism is wrong (and it is!), but if you don't understand its roots it can never be dealt with.
So relating to fantasy... if you want a non racist setting, then you will have one where adventurers are not heroes but are murderers, theives and psychopaths.
That game does not sound as fun to me.