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There's a feat for this - Practiced Spellcaster in Complete Arcane. It adds 4 to your caster level (up to your HD). It doesn't stack, but you could make additional versions of it (a +8 and a +12 version, perhaps, with each previous one as the prerequisite) - or just let it stack. :)
I'm not sure I like the "free advancement" even if it's only at half. The feat could be more powerful, if the levels are close (or you're a creature with monster HD), but at least you've had to spend a feat for it.
If spell casting gets this 1/2 speed advancement, then you'd have to give all the other classes the same thing.
Rage points for barbarians, bardic performance for bards (aswell as the caster level increase), cleric turning/rebuking, wild shape for driud, unarmed damage for monks, lay on hands for paladins, favored enemies for rangers, sneak attack for rogue all would have to be looked at along with other abilities that the classes have.
What does a fighter get extra?
Can't think of anything straight away from the class abilities for them.
If you want to have spells that will affect high level opponents then you stick with one caster class. After all this is a group game and who wants to be in a group with someone who can deal with any foe and has no real need of you?
The advantage of multi-class casting is quantity over quality. The goal is to build towards a prestige class that lets you advance in both classes in spell casting.
Even worse, allowing players to do so right from the beginning basically makes it worthless to play a non-caster, because you're getting 1.5 levels worth of stuff for every level of stuff that they get when they advance.
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It looks fine to me - I like that feat, really. It's not that overpowering at all, and to bother taking that last one you'd have to be a pretty low-level caster as part of your multiclass anyway.
If it works for your game, go for it. :) Paizo can't take the first one verbatim (because I don't think the Complete X books were OGL), but it's simple enough to create an OGL version that does effectively the same thing.
I guess my question, were I the DM, would be "what are you going to use this for?" There's always some crazy thing from one of the lesser known books that will be used that will make this broken. :) Is there something specific you have in mind that you're driving for that needs a higher caster level?
It would make for some great Urpriest loving. 10 prestige class levels with all the way up to 9th level spells. Even losing the last 2 level bonus from the 3rd feat would be worth while. Caster level 20 Urpriest would be very strong.
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It would make for some great Urpriest loving. 10 prestige class levels with all the way up to 9th level spells. Even losing the last 2 level bonus from the 3rd feat would be worth while. Caster level 20 Urpriest would be very strong.
Actually, the Ur-Priest already gets a bit of a boost. If you're a Wiz10/Ur-10 then his caster level is already 15 (you take half your class levels in other spellcasting - non-cleric - classes and add it to your Ur-priest caster level). This feat tree (and actually, the character would only need the first one, which already exists, to get up to CL19) doesn't affect the power of the Ur-priest much at all. It's already a very powerful prestige class.
Serves me right for not looking through Urpriest again.
The advantage of multi-class casting is quantity over quality. The goal is to build towards a prestige class that lets you advance in both classes in spell casting.
Absolutely correct! Two of the biggest examples Ive seen are "Mystic Theurge" (Wizard/Cleric) and "Arcane Hierophant" (Wizard/Druid). Both of these characters are exceptional at fixing problems more than just straight healing or straight kaboom.
Our Mystic Theurge was invaluable quite a few times, and at one point was all but soloing a Half-fiend Sorcerer by himself, that was meant for the entire party. I imagined Cartman from SouthPark doing that annoying little dance he does "heh heh HEH heh henh HEH!" when hes mocking someone. Mind you his Domain powers helped him quite a bit... Travel (freedom of movement) and Luck (1 daily re-roll). He was sleeving his spells in left over poly sleeves from magic cards... it was well over 52 spells at one point.
Evards = Freedom of Movement
Fighter goes down = Spectral Hand & Cure M. Wounds
Half-fiend turn invisible = Glitter Dust
Charm Person = Failed, but Luck Domain (re-roll ... success)
Long story short... he had an answer for just about EVERYTHING at approx. 7-9th level. No he did not have the Cone of Cold that the Sorcerer did, but that is not what he was trying to be.
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My Kobold Druid/Wizard (Arcane Hierophant wannabe) is the same way but, in a more offensive crowd control (no kaboom required) sorta way and only level 5 at the moment. 8 zero level spells, 6 first level spells, 1 second level spell...
Entangle (favorite outdoors)
Grease (favorite indoors)
Sleep
Color Spray
On top of that... add Combat Casting & Mounted Casting... a Boar Companion. BTW, hes a Transmuter specialist so he can now make the Boar...
Enlarge
Expeditious Retreat
Bull's Strength
Bear's Endurance
Ever see an Enlarged Boar with Powerful Charge, natural armor of 6 and wearing chainshirt barding? 2d6 + 2d6 "Traaaaaaaaain!"
Not to mention he heals. Hes not the best healer by far, since druids dont get a 2nd tier heal spell until 5th level (pure druid).
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Just my thoughts and recent experiences with multi-class spellcasters. Sure, sometimes monsters make saving throws, but I think that is more of an issue with *difficulty checks being too low* than with the caster level/multi-classing. There needs to be a more solid way to increase your DCs... the Dirge Singer (prestige class) in The Complete Scoundrel has amazing DCs that work off of his PERFORM skill +10 (I think, been awhile since Ive read it), and you need an 8 perform skill before you can even get the class... thats an 18 out of the gate!
The only way to insure a grease gets a better DC is to up you intelligence... in a relatively rich campaign that might only ever amount to a 16 DC. (10 base + 1 spell lvl +6 Int) Thats pretty poor once your fighting giants and dragons with +10-15 on saves.
Adding spellcraft to the DC would most likely make DCs too powerful and broken... I think adding perform to the Dirge Singers DCs is broken IMHO, but it makes him scary! Yea, I know... a Scarily Effective Emo Bard? Who'd have thought?!
...sometimes monsters make saving throws, but I think that is more of an issue with *difficulty checks being too low* than with the caster level/multi-classing. There needs to be a more solid way to increase your DCs... the Dirge Singer (prestige class) in The Complete Scoundrel has amazing DCs that work off of his PERFORM skill +10 (I think, been awhile since Ive read it), and you need an 8 perform skill before you can even get the class... thats an 18 out of the gate!
The only way to insure a Grease gets a better DC is to up your intelligence... in a relatively rich campaign that might only ever amount to a 16 DC. (10 base + 1 spell lvl +6 Int) Thats pretty poor once your fighting giants and dragons with +10-15 on saves.
Adding spellcraft to the DC would most likely make DCs too powerful and broken... I think adding perform to the Dirge Singers DCs is broken IMHO, but it makes him scary! Yea, I know... a Scarily Effective Emo Bard? Who'd have thought?!
OK Tobias, Check this out... After rambling off my thoughts above I did what I usually do when Im geeking out on D&D, I called my DM. We frequently discuss things we like/dislike about various mechanics, Trip, Grapple, DCs, etc. I mentioned to him about this posting and we came up with this after about 40 minutes:
The caster definitely requires some love in the DC department. At every EVEN level (2,4,6,8...) the caster would get +1 to their spell DCs. (rounded down) This helps casters use lower level spells at higher levels, but at the same time does not become game breaking. No to mention that is also gives you something at that slightly crappy level where you usually only get 1 more spell per day and some skill points. (example: level 2... you can cast, 2 - 1st level spells instead of 1.)
SPELL DC:
10 (base) + Spell Level + Ability Modifier + 1/2 Caster Level (rounded down)
Example:
6th Level wizard with an 16 Int casting Grease... DC 17
Not entirely difficult for a CR 6-10 monster, ( CR depending on party size) but better than a 14... and not game breaking.
(I cannot wait to actually reap the benefits of it, if he house rules it.
Our discussion: He had mentioned that somewhere he read a spell is suppose to be better simply because its a higher level of spell... Magic Missle = Pistol < Cone of Cold = Machine Gun type theory. I disagreed with this saying that, that does not reward you for being experienced, pistol or machine gun a 30th level character isnt going to miss simply because its a pistol. The pistol just might be ineffective or not powerful enough to do the damage needed.)
The metamagic feat Heighten Spell (PHB pg. 95) increases the spell's spell level for all purposes, including DCs. Spell Focus (PHB pg. 100) adds +1 to the DC of spells in a particular school and Greater Spell Focus (PHB pg. 94) adds an additional +1.
...but I think that is more of an issue with *difficulty checks being too low* than with the caster level/multi-classing. ...
Actually, it is more of the caster level being too low.
Take magic missile, always hits, doesn't allow a save to reduce/negate damage, but you do have to check against any Spell Resistance in a creature.
If you're a multi-classed caster, your chances of making that SR check are lower than a single-classed caster, especially if you don't use one of the multi-class patch PrCs.
And given the propensity for high level monsters (and most epic monsters) to have Spell Resistance, having a CL high enough to affect them is as important for a spellcasters as having an attack bonus high enough to hit a monster's AC about 75% of the time with a single attack is to a non-spellcaster.
A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).
These feats only boost the caster level, it does not affect the level of spells accessible or your spells/day.
True, but the UrPriest gets 9th level spells for 10 levels of the prestige class.
Why not have a set of feats that let your caster level for each casting class stack. Much like the Ascetic feats for monk/insert other class here.
A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).
And what's wrong with that? the wizard 20 should get some benefit for taking the straight road.
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A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).And what's wrong with that? the wizard 20 should get some benefit for taking the straight road.
I actually tend to agree with this very much. If the character in the example above spent some of his time training to be a fighter while the straight wizard has spent all of his time learning the ways of magic, then the straight wizard SHOULD be better at using magic.
If a wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 needs to use more feats in order to get closer to the pure magic ability of a true, 20th level wizard, then I'd say things are pretty much in balance.
A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).And what's wrong with that? the wizard 20 should get some benefit for taking the straight road.
Absolutely. However, that benefit should be mastery of all aspects of wizardry and, more importantly, the downside for multiclassed casters shouldn't be that mastery of any aspect of wizardry becomes impossible.
It stands to reason that someone with less than 100% focus on being a caster shouldn't get to be as good a caster as one who is absolutely focused, but there are several aspects of being a caster: number of spells known, number of spells per day, and various aspects of magical power (overcoming SR, metamagic, etc). As it stands, the multiclasser loses out on every aspect. That's neither practical nor plausible. It makes him unnecessarily underpowered whereas if he could focus more on certain aspects (to the further detriment of others) he'd be more useful to the party and because if that more believable.
I use hybrid classes for characters that are consistent multiclassers. A Fighter/Wizard for instance could get full BAB but less feats than a full Fighter and full caster level for casting spells but not for which spells he has access to.
OK Tobias, Check this out... After rambling off my thoughts above I did what I usually do when Im geeking out on D&D, I called my DM. We frequently discuss things we like/dislike about various mechanics, Trip, Grapple, DCs, etc. I mentioned to him about this posting and we came up with this after about 40 minutes:
The caster definitely requires some love in the DC department. At every EVEN level (2,4,6,8...) the caster would get +1 to their spell DCs. (rounded down) This helps casters use lower level spells at higher levels, but at the same time does not become game breaking. No to mention that is also gives you something at that slightly crappy level where you usually only get 1 more spell per day and some skill points. (example: level 2... you can cast, 2 - 1st level spells instead of 1.)
SPELL DC:
10 (base) + Spell Level + Ability Modifier + 1/2 Caster Level (rounded down)Example:
6th Level wizard with an 16 Int casting Grease... DC 17
Not entirely difficult for a CR 6-10 monster, (...
This is a very bad idea. This will make already powerful spellcasters two powerful in lvl 10+ levels.
For a lvl 7 spell Finger of Death this means a DC of 10+7+5(or 6) int+6+1(spell focus) = 29. This means that most of the fights will be done in 1 round due to everyone failing this save (and my calculations have been generous - It could have been a Sun elf with starting Int 19 +3 = 22 by lvl 12 and +4 int item is 26 or +8; so DC of 32)
If you want to make lower level spells more powerful I suggest making DC of all spells equal to DC of your highest spell level. Or to put it into numbers: DC = 10 + Int + 1/2 caster level (round up; max 9) for wizards and clerics and druids.
And: DC = 10 + Int + 1/2 caster level (round down; min 1; max 9) for Sorcerers.
A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).And what's wrong with that? the wizard 20 should get some benefit for taking the straight road.
Nothing wrong with it, a straight wizard should always be a better spellcaster than a multi-classed one.
However, without the eldritch knight levels, the character has to devote more levels to the spellcasting class, or face the very real possibility that their CL will be too low for their level, even with those three feats.
A wizard 10/fighter 10 has almost no chance of affecting a Balor with a spell that allows SR, and even with those three feats is only going to affect the monster 50% of the time. Compared to a wizard 20 with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration who makes CL checks at a 24, that's not an acceptable "drawback" of multi-classing, it's a crippling.
Especially when you factor in the benefits of staying with a single class in Pathfinder, and not only does multi-classing before 21st level seem like a less attractive option, but multi-class spellcasters lose out on too much to be an effective and viable option.
Is it wrong that I want to be able to have a wizard 10/fighter 10 that doesn't need levels in eldritch knight, or restrict his spellcasting to himself, his allies, or spells that don't allow SR? One that isn't as good a melee combatant as the 20th level fighter, or as good a spellcaster as the 20th level wizard, but can still be just as effective in combat without unduly restricting his choices of (already limited by lower level) spells?
Frankly, I want my multi-classed, non-patch PrC using spellcaster to still be able to affect a Balor with a magic missile, even if I'm not able to toss meteor swarms on him. Currently, without heavily favoring the spellcasting class, or taking one of the (rather boring) patch PrCs like eldritch knight, I can't have that.
If a wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 needs to use more feats in order to get closer to the pure magic ability of a true, 20th level wizard, then I'd say things are pretty much in balance.
Unless you don't have one or more of those feats, or any levels in eldritch knight, in which case unless your levels are highly skewed toward the spellcasting class, means you aren't “mediocre” as a spellcaster, but you plain suck as a spellcaster, and are only a mediocre non-spellcaster as well.
And I personally find eldritch knight far too bland to consider taking levels in, it just doesn't do anything other than give a single fighter feat and more spells/spells per day/CL (and not even full progression at that). And frankly, I just don't see anything compelling about the class that makes me want to work a character toward being eligible for the PrC, especially with the neat abilities Pathfinder gives the core classes.
A wizard 5/fighter 5/eldritch knight 10 going up against a Balor is going to have a hell of a time sending spells through it's SR of 28. Sure, throwing in Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration helps, but that's spending 3 feats to get the same CL that a wizard 20 can get with just 1 (Spell Penetration).And what's wrong with that? the wizard 20 should get some benefit for taking the straight road.Nothing wrong with it, a straight wizard should always be a better spellcaster than a multi-classed one.
However, without the eldritch knight levels, the character has to devote more levels to the spellcasting class, or face the very real possibility that their CL will be too low for their level, even with those three feats.
A wizard 10/fighter 10 has almost no chance of affecting a Balor with a spell that allows SR, and even with those three feats is only going to affect the monster 50% of the time. Compared to a wizard 20 with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration who makes CL checks at a 24, that's not an acceptable "drawback" of multi-classing, it's a crippling.
Especially when you factor in the benefits of staying with a single class in Pathfinder, and not only does multi-classing before 21st level seem like a less attractive option, but multi-class spellcasters lose out on too much to be an effective and viable option.
Is it wrong that I want to be able to have a wizard 10/fighter 10 that doesn't need levels in eldritch knight, or restrict his spellcasting to himself, his allies, or spells that don't allow SR? One that isn't as good a melee combatant as the 20th level fighter, or as good a spellcaster as the 20th level wizard, but can still be just as effective in combat without unduly restricting his choices of (already limited by lower level) spells?
Frankly, I want my multi-classed, non-patch PrC using spellcaster to still be able to affect a Balor with a magic missile, even if I'm...
Well you can be a good spellcaster, you just need to change your tactics. With 10 lvls of wizard you do not have access to any spells that can really hurt that Balor so you do not need to bypass his SR.
Instead use self and party buffs (and summons - although not very useful they could buy you additional round or two or buy them for your fighters up front). Also get a lot of Acid Arrows and similar spells.Multiclassing purpose is not to give you more power but to allow you to create the kind of characters that you want to roleplay. ROLEPLAY is the key word here. And the main difference between 4e and 3e.
You can also have a look at the "Magic Rating" from Unearthed Arcana:
Well you can be a good spellcaster, you just need to change your tactics. With 10 lvls of wizard you do not have access to any spells that can really hurt that Balor so you do not need to bypass his SR.
Unless you're telling me it is perfectly acceptable for a fighter 10/wizard 10 who is the only arcane spellcaster in the party to be utterly useless in regards to actually hurting the balor, then you're wrong.
Instead use self and party buffs (and summons - although not very useful they could buy you additional round or two or buy them for your fighters up front). Also get a lot of Acid Arrows and similar spells.
>.<
If I wanted to do that, I'd play a straight Transmuter or Conjurer wizard, not a multi-class one.
Multiclassing purpose is not to give you more power but to allow you to create the kind of characters that you want to roleplay. ROLEPLAY is the key word here. And the main difference between 4e and 3e.
? How is allowing multi-classing to increase CL giving “more power” (beyond the obvious of actually making the character's spells relevant)? You're already sacrificing more powerful spells, as well as the more powerful abilities of the other class in addition to willingly subjecting yourself to MAD. How is giving what is essentially a small boost to CL checks (I'm not advocating 1:1 CL advancement for non-spellcaster classes, that is too much) and other CL-based mechanics “more powerful”?
You're also missing the point that the 3.5 rules may allow you to ROLEPLAY a multi-class spellcaster, but also serve to PUNISH you for doing so by rendering your SR vulnerable spells useless.
If I really wanted more power, I'd play a gestault fighter/wizard.
Your expectations for a character that only takes half of a commitment to wizardry compared to the one who follows the sole path are a bit unrealistic. Kind of you want the cake and desire to eat it too.
No I don't.
I want a character that, while not as powerful as a single-classed version of either class, is still capable of getting in and actively contributing in combat, such as by actually hurting and killing things himself.
I'm sacrificing more power for more options of a lesser power. If I wanted more power, I'd be a barbarian 10/fighter 10. THAT is an example of a more powerful character.
So SR the problem for you? A Fighter/Wizard should not trying to approach his challenges in the same way a straight wizard will do so. He should be looking at spells that boost his combat, buff his comrades, or hinder his enemies without dealing with spell resistance. A multi-class character should be thinking of his classes in synergy not has two separate entities.
Yeah, SR is more or less the problem. And while it works fine, IMO, for single-classed spellcasters, it is an almost insurmountable wall for muti-classed spellcasters.
I've already addressed the buffing bit above, but I'd like to see 15 offensive-use spells, which might be useful to a multi-classed spellcaster, that don't have to check against SR. I think you'll find far fewer than you expect.
There's a feat for this - Practiced Spellcaster in Complete Arcane. It adds 4 to your caster level (up to your HD).
I've heard there is a similar feat in either an old Dragon or Dungeon Magazine for WARLOCKS.
If someone out there knows what it is or what issue it's in PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I need it for an upcoming PC.
It is an insufferable wall, and I believe it is supposed to be so.
The Wiz10/Fighter10 is also not gonna be able to hit the really tough AC opponents. He just won't. Why? Because he gave that up when he took the ability to cast as a 10th level wizard.
Should the 10th level wizard be able to effect SR the same way high level ones do? No, they shouldn't. Anymore than the 10th level fighter is able to strike at AC's that the higher level ones are able to.
It is a tradeoff. For the versatility of multiclassing, you take a penalty. If you want to be able to overcome SR you better be more or less a full caster, just as those who want to hit the highest AC's need to be full bab.
I understand I am in the minority here, in that most folks seem to be of a mind that someone who multiclasses should be on par with those who don't, but it just doesn't really make alot of sense to me that someone who splits their time between two disciplines will be anywhere nearly as good at either as the person who concentrates that same time on one of them.
-S
Unless you're telling me it is perfectly acceptable for a fighter 10/wizard 10 who is the only arcane spellcaster in the party to be utterly useless in regards to actually hurting the balor, then you're wrong.
Basically yes, it is perfectly acceptable. A fighter 10/ wizard 10 should not be able to use spells as effectively as a wizard 20 or even a straight wizard 11. If you wanted to make a character that was capable of having hard hitting magic then you should have designed a character that was.
Fighter/ Wizards main strength is in being able to self-buff themselves into being uber fighters and do occasional blasting of low level enemies.
Unless you're telling me it is perfectly acceptable for a fighter 10/wizard 10 who is the only arcane spellcaster in the party to be utterly useless in regards to actually hurting the balor, then you're wrong.If I wanted to do that, I'd play a straight Transmuter or Conjurer wizard, not a multi-class one.
? How is allowing multi-classing to increase CL giving “more power” (beyond the obvious of actually making the character's spells relevant)? You're already sacrificing more powerful spells, as well as the more powerful abilities of the other class in addition to willingly subjecting yourself to MAD. How is giving what is essentially a small boost to CL checks (I'm not advocating 1:1 CL advancement for non-spellcaster classes, that is too much) and other CL-based mechanics “more powerful”?
If I really wanted more power, I'd play a gestault fighter/wizard.
Well I am sorry that YOUR expectations of multiclassing is different then the designers was. Multiclassing was never supposed to allow you what you want here and I am completely OK with that (and find it logical).
If I spend half my time playing Basketball and half my time playing Soccer I will never be able to be a top player in those sports. But I will be able to challenge a top player of Soccer to a match of Basketball and clean his clock :D
If I spend half my time playing Basketball and half my time playing Soccer I will never be able to be a top player in those sports. But I will be able to challenge a top player of Soccer to a match of Basketball and clean his clock :D
Bad comparison. Rather take gymnastics and the decathlon: if you practice both equally, you'll never get to a really competitive level. But if you decide to focus on a single gymnastics event instead, the rings for example, and on the throwing events from the decathlon, you should be able to (if you have the talent in the first place, of course).
Ideally, a multiclassed wizard should be able to choose which aspects of magic he wants to focus on and which he'll spend less time on.