So what effect does the GSL have on all of the WotC/TSR pdfs, especially the pre-3rd edition stuff? Are the downloads of the aforementioned Spelljammer, et al, to go *poof* on October 1? Or will it take them releasing a 4e version of each game line to do it?
Are they simply trying to break with the OGL or is it with all of the game's past?
Consider it my penance for being wrong about the whole 4E/Pathfinder fiasco. I might be arrogant, but I'm all for putting my money where my mouth is.
Oh, right. While Lisa has the right to say "Told you so", I have something for you as well:
;-P
Can you please video tape this and the mailing and put it on Youtube so we know you aren't full of s&%%? Please?
If you don't believe him, why would that be enough? He could tape putting some books into a box with a nasty letter and just say "and now I bring that to the PO". Or Bring another box to the PO, cutting things up right so you don't see the switch.
In fact, unless he puts a camera with a powerful sender into the box along with the letter and the books, how can you be sure? You don't believe anyone who says that he'll never play 4e, anyway.
This isn't going to turn into All You Zombies, is it? :DHEY! What's wrong with us Zombies?
I would tell you, but I think there's a limit on how much you can put into a post :P
(Semi-seriously, though: I was referring to the Story All You Zombies. Look it up at wikipedia, take a look at the Lisa/Vic paradox, and it should all make sense ;-))
And diversity is the key to a healthy RPG industry overall.
with a nice, free, can't-be-taken away OGL at its center :)
Thanks, I needed a good drink-snorting laugh. I did mention my weakness for irony you know. ;)
Lastly given their 50% market share, WoTc decisions make markets. Not being open just made it harder for differing creative visions to share the d&d market place, which I would argue, is to the detriment of consumers.Actually, if they're down to 50 percent market-share, I can see why they're being so worried and draconian now. It wasn't long ago that they were 90 percent...I don't want a reference to your statistics or anything, but is that close to the real situation or it it only directionally correct? I know you were quoting Lou but this is how rumors start. By the end of this thread it will be that PfRPG has taken 40% of the market from WotC to bring WotC from 90% to 50% market share.
EDIT: Vance is too fast for me. I had to put a sentence back in.
The WoTC 2000 study put D&D at 66%
2000 StudyThen in 2007, Ryan Dancey estimated D&D market share at 50%
Ryan Estimates
So, yeah. I think they're real numbers.
Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes!
Hee hee. I see I'm not alone with those genes.
Up until very recently, I had a complete Forgotten Realms novel collection. I have every novel up until the Orc King and stuff that came out around that time and later. I started this somewhat after 3e came out. Some of those books were a real killer to get, since most of them have a single print run and were out-of-print and off the shelves for a long, long time.
Same with D&D miniatures. I had complete sets for all sets until, what was it? The one before Desert of Desolation I think. I started in around Giants of Legend, and started completing the older sets seriously after Aberrations, I think. Some of those figures were everything but cheap. I used to get two or three cases for every set, and filled the rares I missed with ebay.
Combine that with lots of D&D 3e books, and you're looking at a big wad of money being poured into the D&D collection each year.
After it became clear that wizards killed my then-favourite setting, I stopped buying. Everything. No more minis, no more novels, no more wizards books.
So you just have to get angry at the company, and all the compulsive collecting will evaporate.
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Never mind the market share numbers, look at those print run numbers!
No wonder nobody wants to talk about sales. 5,000 units is normal and 10,000 is a success?
I know how many copies of books I regularly see on the shelves at the FLGS and the Barnes & Noble, though I do not know how rapidly they turn over, with the 4E core books being a notable exception. If those are all single digit orders instead of a full box sitting and gathering dust, then indeed, it is just a bunch of people buying reading material.
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Am I a bad person for still wanting to play both PRPG and 4.0?
I can't help it. Not starting any edition wars here, but I think they did a good job with 4.0. They fixed a lot I thought needed fixing, I like the new power/battle system, and a lot of other things.
I don't like enough that I'm going to switch over completely, and I love Paizo to death. Still, the GSL makes me sad. I really *really* had been hoping they were going to make it more open, so I could maybe see some good adventures for it in the future (my main non-wotc purchase in 3.5, as I usually only run modules). Unfortunately, Paizo has the best quality out there in terms of what I've seen on adventures, and they're PRPG.
So my group is thinking of doing Paizo and PRPG 3/4 weeks a month, and 4.0 the lone week. I still think it's fun, and it is a good product. I just wish they weren't such bullies :(
Am I a bad person for still wanting to play both PRPG and 4.0?
I can't help it. Not starting any edition wars here, but I think they did a good job with 4.0. They fixed a lot I thought needed fixing, I like the new power/battle system, and a lot of other things.
I don't like enough that I'm going to switch over completely, and I love Paizo to death. Still, the GSL makes me sad. I really *really* had been hoping they were going to make it more open, so I could maybe see some good adventures for it in the future (my main non-wotc purchase in 3.5, as I usually only run modules). Unfortunately, Paizo has the best quality out there in terms of what I've seen on adventures, and they're PRPG.
So my group is thinking of doing Paizo and PRPG 3/4 weeks a month, and 4.0 the lone week. I still think it's fun, and it is a good product. I just wish they weren't such bullies :(
I am in tghe exact same boat. I love the new changes but I love the Pathfinder APs. So far my plan will be to just stick with the core stuff from 4e and just convert the hell out of the Pathfinder stuff. Its seems like a lot of trouble but so far the conversion process has been getting easier and easier as I learn more from 4E(and faster).
At least this way Paizo will still get part of my money. :P
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(...)
However, done correctly (for 4e?), it had a lot of possibilites, and I have found alternate rules for Helms and what-not on fansites that I would now use. If WotC tries to turn it around and make it more mature, by making it "Sailing through the Astral to other worlds" a'la Michael Moorcock's multiverse ({i]Sailor on the Seas of Fate[/i]), then it is full of potential.Of course, we're talking about WotC here, and after reading that GSL, I have very little hope they will get anything right anymore.
<see how I spun this back on-topic at the end there?> :D
Masterful spin at the end, I must admit! :D
I agree that there were a lot of really silly elements to Spelljammer, like Hippos in uniforms and such, but I really think that was part of the wacky appeal of the product in the first place. The "D&D in Spaaace!" aspect of it was hilarious. It's nice to have some settings that just try to be funny/fun and assume their stand. I totally understand it pulled off a LOT of people though. Nothing wrong with that, really.
Of course, a republication of Spelljammer would be great. I wonder if we really need one though, given that the rules of the basic set themselves are easily converted.
Also, Kudos for the mention of "The Sailor on the Seas of Fate". I love the parallel with "The Quest for Tanelorn". I love the look and feel of Moorcock's multiverse. So yeah. Cookie for you!
I have NO problem with the 4e rules, but I would never refer to it as 'D&D'. It just doesn't feel the same, at all.
My son (19) is thinking about running his own game finally, and he's considering the 4e rules - more power to him, I say. I think they are the perfect set of rules for the starting DM - they remind me of the old D&D rules, simple and straight-forward, with everything revolving around encounters and very little in the way of camapign-worthy material or RPG elements. My friends and I had great times playing 'one shots' back in the 70's, and I'm sure my son will do just fine with them.
WotC should be commended for creating the perfect set of 'Starter Rules'. It will get quite a few more fans into the game, and when all those 13-19 year olds start looking for something more, they'll know where to find us.
Let WotC keep its 50% "market share" - as long as they keep growing the market, Paizo will do just fine.
P.S. - I was going to run a 4e test game, but the GSL knocked the optimism right out of me... I will be playing in my son's game, though. I don't feel the PRPG/OGL and the current iteration of D&D are competitors at all - they are very different animals and it is okay to like/play both. Hell, I was playing Runequest, T&T, Traveller, and C&S by the end of the 70's along with D&D, so this really isn't anything new.
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Am I a bad person for still wanting to play both PRPG and 4.0?
Yes. You are a heretic to 4e for not thinking it is the most marvelous system ever invented and will be burnt as soon as the 4E Inquisition can find you. You are also a traitor to 3.5/PRPG and will be shot on sight by the 3.5 Partisans.
Have nice, but rather short, life. ;-)
It is very, very weird for me to not be buying the latest D&D products. I have all of 3.x, almost all of 2E, most of 1E, and about 1/2 of BECMI.
Other than Paizo subscriptions (for my new adventure fix, even though I have to convert them), monster manuals (because I'm a unrepentent and willfully in denial monster addict), and miniatures (my worst addiction of all, and I love it), I haven't purchased a D&D product in years.
It'll be okay. The pressure to peer purchase fades away over time once you refocus on your priorities. It's refreshing to clear away the addictive purchasing fog to see the blue sky of choice.
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Erik gets his books free from his WotC friends. I, on the other hand, have to purchase them through paizo.com. I do get a nice discount though. :)
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
I've been experiencing the same thing. At first, I walked past Keep on the Shad... and I felt like a crack addict, that is, I felt this compulsion to buy it, but once I resisted, I found resisting the urge to buy 4e became easier and easier. Since 1983 I've collected a lot of PRPG stuff (formerly known as dungeons and dragons), and I sincerely almost caved and bought 4e.
I guess that happened to a lot of folks. But after seeing what a different game it is, and after reading through the miserable GSL, I think many gamers are actually ready to take a stand Against The Wizards, if you will.
The GSL is perhaps the final bounce that the open game licence movement needed. On behalf of the players in my area, we're ready for PRPG to begin the branch of history that is the rightful successor to dungeons and dragons. And, we won't hesitate to buy it - feeling that "we have chosen wisely."
Dökkálfar sounds much more menacing than drow.Sounds like a metal band to me. :)
And we all know drow are metal.
Knowing is half the battle? }: POh, here we are, how sad a bunch of elderly nerds we are; ain't we?
Bustin' out Izzardisms, G.I. Joe stuff, I wonder which is next, some ol' school BSG stuff, Thundarr, or some Space: 1999?
*grins*
We're the princes of the universe...
*pardon*
COME OOKLA! WE RIDE!
I also hate the provision in the GSL that pretty much says no sexual situations. WTF is up with that.Ahhh, yes, the Nick Logue clause.I like to think of it as the No Greek Gods and Goddesses Clause.
The Nick Logue clause wouls speak, specifically, to nipple clamps.
There. I said it.
This strikes me as odd. If you have a product that contains sexual situations it is therefore not allowed in the GSL? So you can't include brothels, whores, or anything of like?
I mean I could see WotC/Hasbro not wanting to have their product seen as child unfriendly, but didnt they themselves publish the Book of Vile Darkness and Heroes of Horror(I beleive the DMGII town Salt Marsh contains something that might be a sexual situation)?
Why is the whole world afraid of nipples (clamps)? Btw what did Nick Logue do to cause this fear? Curious non radioactive kitties want to know.
Knowing is half the battle? }: POh, here we are, how sad a bunch of elderly nerds we are; ain't we?
Bustin' out Izzardisms, G.I. Joe stuff, I wonder which is next, some ol' school BSG stuff, Thundarr, or some Space: 1999?
*grins*
We're the princes of the universe...
*pardon*
COME OOKLA! WE RIDE!
Trasnform and Roll out!
Kindly put some sort of warning that that clip involves images of death and severe injury.
Seriously. If there were a nipple in that compilation, you would mark it NSFW. A dog with a crossbow bolt in it's head is not noteworthy?
Bloody Calvin...
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Let's say I create a fan site, if the author of a DCC module, gives me the conversion (it doesn't have to name the author of the conversion), I could publish it then on my fan site then... And my RPG dealer, can print this conversion and give it for free (because, it's not official, you know) to anybody that buys a 3.5 DCC...
Help me dissuade the poor guy before he hurts himself.
Anyone check out http://www.enworld.org/ main page faq/reading of the gsl? Preferably without 5 axes to grind?
I thought it was a good way of explaining things. Im not sure about the whole GSL thing, but I am a 4e supporter. I would love to see other companies work with it, but I don't want to see them get burned.
I *somehow* get the impression that they are all waiting for someone to poke it with a stick and see what happens.
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Oh Gawd I can sooo sympathize Lisa. eBay and several brick and mortar GS (not to mention your fine establishment) have drained literaly tens of thousands away in gaming materials, mostly WoD and D&D. I have the entire Ral Partha Planescape miniatures line NIB for pity's sake!
Not buying 4e seems like quitting cigs was, something difficult, but after it was done I felt better about myself. In fact I felt so good about this descision and my self-control that I went and bought my Superscriber status and $100 of other stuff from Paizo ;)
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Hey Bungleyman if you need to confirm shipment I'll accept them, I'm currently undergoing a forced conversion (stupid friends :P) and the only book I've got is the PHB, but my wife was dissapointed cause she thought she was getting one too. So if you want in a week I'll PM you my adress and you can ship em to me, I'll even pay for the shipping (seriously I have a UPS account).
If anyone needs proof that we are different people I'll give em my dang social security # (I have life lock :) )
Back on topic, I was seriously considering finally throwing my hat into the amatuer 3rd party publishing ring, I wanted to go 3.5 and 4 for it, but now it looks like if I write anything it will be wholly 3.5, which does suck a little because you do have a much better chance of getting out there with D&D compatability
EDIT: unless what I create is so amazing that it stands alone in its creamy goodness (which I don't know if I'm that good).
This strikes me as odd. If you have a product that contains sexual situations it is therefore not allowed in the GSL? So you can't include brothels, whores, or anything of like?
No, you can't. If anyone needs more proof that 4e isn't D&D any more, he just doesn't play D&D correctly!!
;-P
Why is the whole world afraid of nipples (clamps)? Btw what did Nick Logue do to cause this fear?
Hook Mountain Massacre. The dreaded "torture porn" module. Though I have to say that there's very little porn there.
I remember Mayfar and their Role Aids... with a restrictive GSl I do hope to see a day were Role-Aids are reborn.Oooh. You might want to sit down for this: TSR acquired the Role Aids IP from Mayfair, so that means that Wizards owns it now. Sorry....
There's always Flying Buffalo's Citybooks... those rocked. You can still pick those up, I know I managed a complete set.
-Ben.
If anyone needs proof that we are different people I'll give em my dang social security # (I have life lock :) )
Hope you're aware that Lifelock is being sued for fraud because of how deceptive their comercials are. They really barely protect your SS. That guy on tv giving out his number has had it stolen several times. Read it on Yahoo news a couple of weeks ago.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'm having trouble fighting the "gotta catch them all" addiction myself. I did pick up the core books, I'm going to try and hold the line there.
D&D Minis, though...I just don't think I can pass up my complete collection yet. Including all the organized play and rpga repaints!
Why is the whole world afraid of nipples (clamps)? Btw what did Nick Logue do to cause this fear?Hook Mountain Massacre. The dreaded "torture porn" module. Though I have to say that there's very little porn there.
I was disapointed from the build up. I was expecting to be shocked. instead, I was just mildly disturbed.
I'm having trouble fighting the "gotta catch them all" addiction myself. I did pick up the core books, I'm going to try and hold the line there.
D&D Minis, though...I just don't think I can pass up my complete collection yet. Including all the organized play and rpga repaints!
I've stopped my quest to get all of the Transformes from the movie line because of this. Damn Hasbro's not getting any more of my money.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
No fears Lisa,
Apparently WotC has developed a Gene Stripping Lysome that will take care of it. :-)
Oh, and to build on the 300 thread, I now picture the deep well filled with darkness, the sounds of goblin songs and deep ogre voices saying "You gots a purdy mouth!" and Lisa and Vic there on the edge with Scott Rouse.
Vic: "You want exclusivity and IP? You'll find pleanty of both down there."
Rouse"This is madness! This isn't in the GSL!"
*pause*
Lisa: "This. Is. PAIZO!" *bootkick*
(So much for "allowing greater use of our IP in exchange for a license with greater restrictions".)
Yeah. Just like the PHB II material that "explained" the "early next week" delivery failure.
If the Book of Vile Darkness hadn't spent so much time on exotic sex practices, I'd have found the addition of the sex content limits to the d20 license (and now the GSL) much less risible. But when necrophilia and sadomasochism (including a magic nipple clamp item) appear in a single book under both the d20 and D&D logos, any damage that was going to be done is already done.
Damn Hasbro's not getting any more of my money.Hasbro had NOTHING to do with any of these decisions.
I say again, in case I'm not clear:
Hasbro had NOTHING to do with any of these decisions.
Do you know what WOTC is to Hasbro? A write-off. That's it. Think they REALLY give a rat's petootie about the GSL and all that?
Not so, really, friend Vance. If you download Hasbro's latest 10Q (or 10K) from the EDGAR's db, you can read about WoTCs profitability -- and the profitability of the D&D line -- in there. Of course, according to the last one of these I waded through, as a percentage of the total value of the WoTC acquisition, D&D is the WoTC property that contributes least. Still, it gets its own whole section in the annual report, so, they pay attention. Ergo, last time I checked, D&D makes them money. It's not a write-off. The rest of WoTC makes them a fair amount of money.
Hasbro probably dedicates a whole couple of executives to watchdogging it, I'd guess. Of course, that's just my guess.
I remember Mayfar and their Role Aids... with a restrictive GSl I do hope to see a day were Role-Aids are reborn.Oooh. You might want to sit down for this: TSR acquired the Role Aids IP from Mayfair, so that means that Wizards owns it now. Sorry....
Hmmm....well we could call them ROL-Aids... :P
So what effect does the GSL have on all of the WotC/TSR pdfs, especially the pre-3rd edition stuff? Are the downloads of the aforementioned Spelljammer, et al, to go *poof* on October 1? Or will it take them releasing a 4e version of each game line to do it?
Are they simply trying to break with the OGL or is it with all of the game's past?
The GSL is irrelvant. The GSL is a license for other companies to use WotC's property (namely the logo and 4e rules). WotC doesn't need to license to themselves, so they can do whatever the heck they want to do with their older edition PDFs.
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/-Lisa
It is very, very weird for me to not be buying the latest D&D products. I have all of 3.x, almost all of 2E, most of 1E, and about 1/2 of BECMI.
The only things I will probably still buy from WotC are the Dungeon Tiles and minis I can use in my 3.5/Pathfinder game (which I will buy specific singles - not the randomized packs).
Sad in a way...
I hear ya Dave. Sad. Sad that 4E doesn't excite me and make me want to play. Oh well. I have all my old books to comfort me.
Chief Technical Officer
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Oooh. You might want to sit down for this: TSR acquired the Role Aids IP from Mayfair, so that means that Wizards owns it now. Sorry....The 'Role Aids' trade-mark hasn't been used in ages... I don't see why someone couldn't start up a NEW line, since TSR simply let it die well before WotC even took it over. It's true that they own the old books... but the brand is long dead, legally.
I think you're right. Thanks for the correction.
Who'd have thought two or three weeks ago that WotC actually would manage to bring everyone together with the GSL? A masterpiece... from a certain point of view.Well put.GSL = common enemyThere is one good thing about this GSL release.
It has ended with the edition war here in this boards. I see less angry posting and less people arguing since then.
"Well you'll find many of the truths we hold....."
You know what, never mind I just can't say it.
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CEO
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I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Oh Gawd I can sooo sympathize Lisa. eBay and several brick and mortar GS (not to mention your fine establishment) have drained literaly tens of thousands away in gaming materials, mostly WoD and D&D. I have the entire Ral Partha Planescape miniatures line NIB for pity's sake!
Not buying 4e seems like quitting cigs was, something difficult, but after it was done I felt better about myself. In fact I felt so good about this descision and my self-control that I went and bought my Superscriber status and $100 of other stuff from Paizo ;)
Yeah, it is really, really weird for me. I have EVERY D&D product produced by TSR and WotC, all editions, all the campaign settings, the box sets (I even have the only copy of the Wildspace box game that I know about), everything. Whenever anybody at WotC and now Paizo is looking for some old, obscure D&D book, they come to me. I am a completist of a almost compulsive nature And yet, my collecting of official D&D stops here. I think I might buy up some of the best 3.x stuff to add to the library instead. And, of course, all the cool Pathfinder stuff. Oh, wait, we make that. :)
One thing I am going to be really interested in collecting is 3pp products that support the PFRPG. That will be a trip!
-Lisa
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So how about Lisa or Erik? If WOTC doesn't back down, you can have a free set of 4E core books for the asking...all you have to do is confirm receipt. You can feed 'em to your dog or something. Or heck, play with 'em, though I suspect you guys get that stuff for free.I just got a set.
Give it to a kid, or something. :)
Erik gets his books free from his WotC friends. I, on the other hand, have to purchase them through paizo.com. I do get a nice discount though. :)
I doubt that I will ever buy a 4e product. Being a rabid collector and having an almost complete set of every D&D product ever produced makes me want to buy it, but the fact that I will never read it or play it makes me not. Stupid rabid collector genes! I guess the almost complete collection stops here. :/
-Lisa
Actually Lisa, I am buying the core books so I can point at it as the thing that nearly killed my 3.5 collection...and then I can turn to my millions of Paizo products and sigh with a smile....Thank God!
Tschussi,
Zux
The GSL is irrelvant. The GSL is a license for other companies to use WotC's property (namely the logo and 4e rules). WotC doesn't need to license to themselves, so they can do whatever the heck they want to do with their older edition PDFs.So what effect does the GSL have on all of the WotC/TSR pdfs, especially the pre-3rd edition stuff? Are the downloads of the aforementioned Spelljammer, et al, to go *poof* on October 1? Or will it take them releasing a 4e version of each game line to do it?
Are they simply trying to break with the OGL or is it with all of the game's past?
I understand it in no way binds them; but does it: a) indicate what they will do with their own backstock? and b) mean they will force other sellers (such as Paizo) to quit selling those pdfs?
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Can you point me to some source to read up on this?
I don't if someone has already, but...
Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles.
More info here: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html
That's a dot gov, by the way. I'm fairly certain that federal law supersedes the local laws of Washington State, too. Of course, if you sign the GSL, that's a moot point.
