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I think everyone in the geek...er...I mean gaming community now realizes that WOTC has, once again, failed to deliver. We should have learned after WOTC failed to get it together in over FIVE YEARS when it came to the E-tools fiasco.
I also think that most of us, based on the quality we miss from Dragon and from Dungeon love Paizo.
That said, NOW is the time to sweep in and take over.
WOTC is bloated, self-contented, and frankly, it appears they assume that the community well gobble up anything they sell. I think this has reached a boiling point.
I would like to start this thread to STRONGLY encourage the gaming geniuses as Paizo (and I don't use the term lightly) to strike out on their own, forsake the OGL and truly make a new DnD experience.
I know that most of your fans would like to see you seek out a computer component to your work, to design a game from scratch, and (for lack of a better analogy) to take the crown from WOTC.
This thread is for those who wish to encourage Paizo to "take over" the fantasy market, simply because of the quality products they produce and their ability to keep their promises.
So, to any Paizo employee who reads this, I speak for many fans when I say, "Think big, now is your chance!"
I have to say that your title of the thread isn't really a clear statement of your objective, but now that I've read your somewhat inflammatory opening statement, I'd like to say the following:
I would love for Paizo to provide on-line articles, an occasional free adventure, and other content to support their outstanding print products.
If it were at all possible, I would love to see articles that provide:
New NPCs
Locations (Like inns with menus, NPCs, hooks)
Bad Guys (Critical Hits)
DM advice for running Pathfinder games
Flavor articles on all things Pathfinder
New affiliations
And anything "player friendly" for a DM to print and hand out to the players.
Even better would be able to see print magazines from Paizo once again. I hope that Kobold will evolve to be what Dragon was at it's height under Paizo, and I still want the companion magazine Kobold's Lair (I like the sound of it) to come out soon.
And now a side note:
It's quite unfair to say that D&DI is a failure since it hasn't been fully launched yet. And eventhough the past months of on-line content have been below expectations (Chris Youngs also admits this in the new editorial for Dragon), now that 4e is rolling out, the "real deal" is bound to come with it.
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I guess what I'm saying is that Paizo has done nothing but meet or exceed my expectations. WOTC has managed to fumble along, but since their failure to produce a single viable, healthy computer component since E-Tools flopped I have lost faith. If you can honestly tell me that you believe the new DDI suite will be released soon and to most of our satisfaction I'll stop posting. If however, the only opposing viewpoint asks me to wait and see (as they did with E-Tools) I'll keep going.
I think now is the time for the fans to let Paizo now that we not only appreciate their work, but many of us feel they would do a better job with the fantasy RPG legacy that WOTC purchased than what we're seeing now.
I honestly believe that if Paizo had promised a computer/online component for $15 a month to coincide with the release of a major product it would have freakin' happened. With WOTC we get a pathetic "It will be done when it's done" message.
So, what I am trying to accomplish with this message is to encourage Paizo to take advantage of WOTC's failure to keep its promises and, more importantly, its failure to keep significant lines of communication open with its fan-base.
Now is the time for a company that understands and enjoys the hobby/obsession we love to step up and take the reigns from a bloated corporate beast and show the community how things could and should be done.
I guess what I'm saying is that Paizo has done nothing but meet or exceed my expectations. WOTC has managed to fumble along, but since their failure to produce a single viable, healthy computer component since E-Tools flopped I have lost faith. If you can honestly tell me that you believe the new DDI suite will be released soon and to most of our satisfaction I'll stop posting. If however, the only opposing viewpoint asks me to wait and see (as they did with E-Tools) I'll keep going.
I agree that the online D&D initiative has been disappointing so far, but I acknowledge that creating an interactive website is difficult, especially if that's not the top priority (the first priority being the print books, of course).
Paizo's website isn't perfect either; these message boards have their share of problems, for instance (slowness, missing posts, etc.).
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Actually after visiting the DDI sites and looking at the content as far as I am concerned it is a TOTAL failure. WOTC has embraced Web 1.0 technology rather than the modern prgraming languages and theory of Web 2.0
Their DDI is platform dependent, rather than web based. Which means no support for non-windows machines. Macs have been growing in popularity, especially with younger generations- the very generation they are targeting with 4E. Of their target audience they are alienating a sizable population.
If entire MMORPGs can be made platform independent then I expect DDI can be as well. It is obvious they are embracing old technology, so it is unlikely that DDI will be more than a novelty at best that seldom performs properly.
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I also think that most of us, based on the quality we miss from Dragon and from Dungeon love Paizo.
I would like to start this thread to STRONGLY encourage the gaming geniuses as Paizo (and I don't use the term lightly) to strike out on their own, forsake the OGL and truly make a new DnD experience.
Firstly, welcome to the boards, and more specifically, the Pathfinder section of the boards.
May I ask if you've downloaded the Pathfinder Alpha 3 rules, or been following the discussions here? If you haven't, I'd strongly suggest you read through what's been written so far, since it may just be your thing.
If not, then I'm unclear as to what you're asking for, too.
When you say 'forsake the OGL', to make 'a new D&D experience'; those two ideas are mutually exclusive, unless you're talking about avoiding the 4E licence, which got re-named the GSL, and now comes with several new restrictions.
The fact is, to make any variant of D&D, you have to use either the GSL or the OGL. If you don't, you leave yourself open to legal action.
In order to totally forsake the OGL/GSL, you would have to make a game significantly different to D&D. Considering how wildly different some of the OGL-based games are out there, your hypothetical new non-OGL game would have to be even more different than that. In which case, you lose the support of all those thousands of fans who want to see a continuation of the 3rd Edition-rules, which I'm assuming includes yourself, as a former reader of Dragon and Dungeon. If it's 'just another independent fantasy game', then what would it need to do to compete with the others out there?
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Actually after visiting the DDI sites and looking at the content as far as I am concerned it is a TOTAL failure. WOTC has embraced Web 1.0 technology rather than the modern prgraming languages and theory of Web 2.0
Their DDI is platform dependent, rather than web based. Which means no support for non-windows machines. Macs have been growing in popularity, especially with younger generations- the very generation they are targeting with 4E. Of their target audience they are alienating a sizable population.......
Wizards? Alienating their own audience? That's ridiculous! What company would ever think to do that. Several times.....to several different aspects of their audience......
Nevermind, sounds like Wizard's SOP.
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...now that 4e is rolling out, the "real deal" is bound to come with it.
Bound to come with it? If this were any other company, yes. It would be bound to come with it, but that's hardly any indicator that it will, and with all of WotC's "exemplary" track record with online services (the first MtGO doesn't count - wasn't developed in-house, then they brought it in-house, which gave us MtGO 2.0, and the "genius" of 3.0), they really have to prove themselves actually capable of providing anything worth a damn before we'll start singing their praises.
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I was all for 4E when it was first announced. I had hoped several of the annoying little problems of 3.5 would be fixed. Instead they turned it into a WOW clone.
WOTC has shown a failure to deliver now for a while. I won't hold my breath for DDI. I expect DDI to come online sometime around GenCon, but the first release will be a dismal disappointment. Why? Because that is what they have taught me to expect.
DDI will be scapped all together or require seevral years of revisions before it is ready.
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I would love for Paizo to provide on-line articles, an occasional free adventure, and other content to support their outstanding print products.
Emphasis mine.
We're in luck! We'll be getting a second free Paizo adventure this summer! Revenge of the Kobold King!
As for the online content, I can't say it's high on my list of what I'd like Paizo to be doing. First and foremost, I want more high-quality Golarion-centric products, which are fantastic. Maybe some free support articles online would be nice one day, but in my experience, you get what you pay for. Besides a few notable exceptions (Paizo's Free RPG Day adventures, a few notable articles/adventures on WotC site), free online content has always struck me as sub-par. I'd rather pay the extra money for something that comes in a nice book with new art and fluff that was worked on for an extended period of time.
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I would love for Paizo to provide on-line articles, an occasional free adventure, and other content to support their outstanding print products.Emphasis mine.
We're in luck! We'll be getting a second free Paizo adventure this summer! Revenge of the Kobold King!
As for the online content, I can't say it's high on my list of what I'd like Paizo to be doing. First and foremost, I want more high-quality Golarion-centric products, which are fantastic. Maybe some free support articles online would be nice one day, but in my experience, you get what you pay for. Besides a few notable exceptions (Paizo's Free RPG Day adventures, a few notable articles/adventures on WotC site), free online content has always struck me as sub-par. I'd rather pay the extra money for something that comes in a nice book with new art and fluff that was worked on for an extended period of time.
I don't know - I consider the Blog to be a good source of 'mini articles' that are free and it even includes pictures! You might not get the 'how to run X' articles, but you get details on the world that show you have to create a magnificent fantasy world by example.
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I don't know - I consider the Blog to be a good source of 'mini articles' that are free and it even includes pictures! You might not get the 'how to run X' articles, but you get details on the world that show you have to create a magnificent fantasy world by example.
True. And I think it means a lot that I read the blog religiously! But it's still more of a preview tool than anything else. As much as I enjoy reading it and it keeps me coming back to the site, most of the material there ends up in the products that I eventually buy.
However! There are some exceptions, such as the Iconic bios, and lately, I've been really digging the Pathfinder Society articles!
I'm not opposed to online content, but for me, the first priority is good published content. Once they've got that covered, and have room for extra staff to take care of the online stuff, then the expansion can commence.
Chief Technical Officer
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[moved to website feedback forum]
Charles hit the nail on the head—we have a lot of great ideas, but we've got one programmer to do them (see our job listing), and the stuff we *need* to do keeps getting in the way of the stuff we *want* to do.
I fail to see how D&D Insider can be considered a flop when it has yet to be released. Talk about your knee-jerk reactions. I was able to sample parts of it during D&D Game Day (the character visualizer and builder) and I was very impressed. I'm really looking forward to the D&D Game Table.
If Paizo was at least able to provide PDF only subscription instead of having to wait 2 weeks after each release date, it could be a start...
[moved to website feedback forum]
Charles hit the nail on the head—we have a lot of great ideas, but we've got one programmer to do them (see our job listing), and the stuff we *need* to do keeps getting in the way of the stuff we *want* to do.
No sympathy from me; I have quite a bit of coding experience and you guys didn't even send a "thanks, but no thanks" message when I submitted my resume last year. My theory is I pissed off Erik at GenCon. ;-)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I fail to see how D&D Insider can be considered a flop when it has yet to be released. Talk about your knee-jerk reactions. I was able to sample parts of it during D&D Game Day (the character visualizer and builder) and I was very impressed. I'm really looking forward to the D&D Game Table.
It is currently a failure, since we made it to launch week with nothing to show other than a half-frequency magazine and a nandful of Dungeon adventures. Said magazine still has a few good articles added to a bunch of fluff that was formerly just part of the website.
When and if the rest of DDI launches, they may be able to make something that's not a flop out of it, but right now, with the interesting stuff having slipped and the magazines a shadow of their former selves, DDI can safely be called a failure - just not an irreversible one.
I don't know - I consider the Blog to be a good source of 'mini articles' that are free and it even includes pictures! You might not get the 'how to run X' articles, but you get details on the world that show you have to create a magnificent fantasy world by example.
Sure, but have you ever tried to *find* something in there? Not really the most organized presentation.
I fail to see how D&D Insider can be considered a flop when it has yet to be released. Talk about your knee-jerk reactions. I was able to sample parts of it during D&D Game Day (the character visualizer and builder) and I was very impressed. I'm really looking forward to the D&D Game Table.
As am I; but that doesn't change the fact that June 6th has come and gone and right now D&D Insider remains vaporware. Given that they have had nine months since announcement (and presumably had already been working on it prior to that) the fact that the product is a no show is a failure. To add insult to injury, they kinda just say "That is how software goes" on their blog, ignoring the fact that what they are doing isn't rocket science; all the heavy lifting (engine code) was already in place!
I hope they turn it around...I'd love to use the tools. But WoTC isn't known for their software, and so far, they're performing about as expected...
If you like a la carte adventures and articles...there's Indulgences by Sinister...just sayin. ;-)
Take a look at the Indulgences here
Edit: They are cheaper than DDI too. Though they aren't for 4E...3.5 is alive!!! :-)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If I had any outrage left on this topic, I'd be happily venting it, but after the horrible awful very-bad no good launch of eDragon and eDungeon, my expectations have been so dramatically lowered that I am only mildly annoyed. The one thing that made it possible for me to stomach the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon was that I believed WotC would stun us all with the amazing quality of their online replacements. In a way, I guess they have succeeded in stunning us all, but sadly, it is with the magnitude of how terrible their launch of this online product has been.
End of the day, regardless of the success or failure of 4e, the person in charge of it should be fired and with a quickness. Insufficient resources were allocated to the roll out of 4e and whoever set the deadlines completely failed in their job if any part of their duties required them to manage and accomplish the goals of the project within the time frame given. They should've either pushed back the timing of the release of 4e, thrown sufficient bodies at the problem to make the roll out a success, or released realistic deadlines they could actually meet.
The decision maker that decided to cancel Dragon and Dungeon stands head and shoulders above the general incompetence and should be fired as well. When his employment is terminated, he should be shown the success that the magazines enjoyed in prepping people for 3e, he should be forced to explain the poor quality online version approved in its stead, and he should be required to account for each and every single person that is choosing to go with Pathfinder over 4e because if he had not made the brilliant decision to can the magazines, chances are extremely good there would be no Pathfinder.*
Hmmm...I guess I have some disgust. Is that close enough to outrage?
*Note that I'm not saying I wish there was no Pathfinder, but that the person who is responsible for its genesis over at WotC clearly did not think his cunning plan all the way through.
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If I had any outrage left on this topic, I'd be happily venting it, but after the horrible awful very-bad no good launch of eDragon and eDungeon, my expectations have been so dramatically lowered that I am only mildly annoyed.
That's the most depressing thing I've ever heard.
There's something wrong in the universe.C'thulhu's coming or something.
You've been psychologically rope-a-doped, dude.
Yes, Sebastian. That is close enough to outrage. ~shocked look~ Hell, I actually almost agree with you. I think the world is coming to an end! ~grins~
Bear in mind that when the DDi went Alpha, they promised that the 'wonderful articles', Gaming Table, DM tools, and FR Wiki will all be available "Somewhere down the line"...
Their words, not mine...
And yet, they want people to sign up for a year's subscription NOW, even though no-one has seen any of the 'Real' content.
Hmmmmm... I distinctly remember those wonderful CDs that came with my 3e PHB and DMG. They promised that the finished version would be available "somewhere down the line".
I'm still waiting for that as well... along with my online Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
When companies - especially WotC - uses such vague assurances, don't hold your breath. As far as I'm concerned, the whole thing is probably vaporware. And if it ever does come out, it will be bug-ridden garbage; they can barely keep their site up and running.
Long Live Paizo, D&D's TRUE successor.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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And yet, they want people to sign up for a year's subscription NOW, even though no-one has seen any of the 'Real' content.
Not that it mitigates their failure to have a product launched at or near the launch date, but my understanding is that they won't be charging until they have up a product that's worth charging for.
<snip> they won't be charging until they have up a product that's worth charging for.
In whose opinion?
Bear in mind that when the DDi went Alpha, they promised that the 'wonderful articles', Gaming Table, DM tools, and FR Wiki will all be available "Somewhere down the line"...
Oy! That's my site!
Bear in mind that when the DDi went Alpha, they promised that the 'wonderful articles', Gaming Table, DM tools, and FR Wiki will all be available "Somewhere down the line"...Oy! That's my site!
Dmtools for the win!!!!!!!!
[moved to website feedback forum]
Charles hit the nail on the head—we have a lot of great ideas, but we've got one programmer to do them (see our job listing), and the stuff we *need* to do keeps getting in the way of the stuff we *want* to do.
When did it get hard to find a programmer? And seriously there is no irony intended here, I really thought there were lots.
Christ I work in one of the top computer programming universities in China. One of the guys playing my RL game is a programmer. They're everyone man, EVERYWHERE!
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[moved to website feedback forum]Charles hit the nail on the head—we have a lot of great ideas, but we've got one programmer to do them (see our job listing), and the stuff we *need* to do keeps getting in the way of the stuff we *want* to do.
There's got to be at least a couple MIT grads out there browsing these forums right now; come on you BrainIaCs! Make the move to Seattle and join the Team!
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[moved to website feedback forum]
Charles hit the nail on the head—we have a lot of great ideas, but we've got one programmer to do them (see our job listing), and the stuff we *need* to do keeps getting in the way of the stuff we *want* to do.
When did it get hard to find a programmer? And seriously there is no irony intended here, I really thought there were lots.
Christ I work in one of the top computer programming universities in China. One of the guys playing my RL game is a programmer. They're everyone man, EVERYWHERE!
Dude, ship one over! Wait, send him to me first. I want to make an Online Virtual Tabletop/PBP site and I can't find my computer's power button...
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All one needs to do is look at the continued failure of WotC to deliver quality electronic gaming tools.
I can think of the Magic Online 2, Magic Online 3, The Original 3.0 character builder (anybody remember that puppy?), The 3.5 character builder/DM eTools, and the Dungeon/Dragon Magazine replacements in the time it took me to write this sentence.
I've never thought since they day they announced a computerized system that they'd ever be capable of delivering such a product. History is just stacked too heavily against them.
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Chief Technical Officer
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When did it get hard to find a programmer? And seriously there is no irony intended here, I really thought there were lots.
The difficulty is finding one willing to work for an adventure game industry salary. We just can't afford to compete with the computer game industry salaries—we need somebody who will do it for less than they could be making because it would be a job they love. So far, we've only found one of those. (Well, ok, we've actually found two others so far, but they ended up being unable to relocate.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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No sympathy from me; I have quite a bit of coding experience and you guys didn't even send a "thanks, but no thanks" message when I submitted my resume last year. My theory is I pissed off Erik at GenCon. ;-)
I don't know what Gary's take is on followup to non-qualifying applicants, but I can tell you that two of the primary reasons for an immediate rejection are a statement of unwillingness to relocate or a stated salary requirement that's more than our CEO makes.
That said, there is the possibility that your e-mail hit a spam filter...
You should hire some Chinese coders. They run on ramen (ok all programmers do) and don't sleep much.
One of my friends, who does indeed speak English, loves games... we have riddle duels (IN ENGLISH!) and the guy is amazing at finding non-linear solutions. On math riddles he is unbeatable. He makes about 1000 USD a month over here.
There are also a million Indian dudes who would love to relocate and write code for your website, and they're English is probably pretty good.
You guys should start up a work-for-product program. Take chunks of functionality you want developed and throw it out for work, with the best implementation getting free Paizo lot. Heck, I'd throw my hat in the ring for that if you needed some IT project management (then I wouldn't have to limit myself just to Pathfinder material)!
I know, I know, system security issues, IP rights, good SQA/testing, compatibility, and other minor things like that might create a few speed bumps... ;^)
There are also a million Indian dudes who would love to relocate and write code for your website, and they're English is probably pretty good.
I don't have any Chinese developers, but I've got several (mostly developers, but also testers and SQA analysts) that are from India, and let me tell you they ain't cheap! Of course, they're not entry-level resources either--most have at least 10+ years of experience.
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Chief Technical Officer
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You should hire some Chinese coders. They run on ramen (ok all programmers do) and don't sleep much.
One of my friends, who does indeed speak English, loves games... we have riddle duels (IN ENGLISH!) and the guy is amazing at finding non-linear solutions. On math riddles he is unbeatable. He makes about 1000 USD a month over here.
There are also a million Indian dudes who would love to relocate and write code for your website, and they're English is probably pretty good.
Hiring non-US citizens is a tricky proposition. Work visas make things difficult on both sides. We'd have to think somebody was pretty much perfect in order to seriously contemplate going through the effort.
I don't know what Gary's take is on followup to non-qualifying applicants, but I can tell you that two of the primary reasons for an immediate rejection are a statement of unwillingness to relocate or a stated salary requirement that's more than our CEO makes.
What kind of order-of-magnitude are we talking about here? I don't want to know anyone's salary (that's generally a very rude question to ask), but I keep toying with the idea of applying (every time I get fed up with grad school). What usually happens is that when I get to having a enough free time to update my resume, I no longer hate school. There's some sort of inverse relationship there. That, and I assumed that the longstanding vacancy meant high requirements that I wouldn't meet.
They run on ramen (ok all programmers do)
I'm a programmer. I hate ramen. (I also hate Mountain Dew. People have threatened to revoke my geek status.)
Hiring non-US citizens is a tricky proposition. Work visas make things difficult on both sides. We'd have to think somebody was pretty much perfect in order to seriously contemplate going through the effort.
It's not difficult on this side.
The paperwork isn't that hard, it's the bureaucratic song and dance that kills. But then where do all those legal non-US workers come from... and there are a lot.
Can you say Filipino health care worker?
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No sympathy from me; I have quite a bit of coding experience and you guys didn't even send a "thanks, but no thanks" message when I submitted my resume last year. My theory is I pissed off Erik at GenCon. ;-)
I don't know what Gary's take is on followup to non-qualifying applicants, but I can tell you that two of the primary reasons for an immediate rejection are a statement of unwillingness to relocate or a stated salary requirement that's more than our CEO makes.
That said, there is the possibility that your e-mail hit a spam filter...
Maybe this is a strange question... but with all of the available communication methods available nowadays do you really need this person to move to Seattle? It seems like it would be the perfect job for a remote employee. Not to mention that opens up at least your entire country for searching, and most likely the rest of the world (though I think if you removed the self-paid-for relocation you wouldn't need to look outside the US).
No sympathy from me; I have quite a bit of coding experience and you guys didn't even send a "thanks, but no thanks" message when I submitted my resume last year. My theory is I pissed off Erik at GenCon. ;-)I don't know what Gary's take is on followup to non-qualifying applicants, but I can tell you that two of the primary reasons for an immediate rejection are a statement of unwillingness to relocate or a stated salary requirement that's more than our CEO makes.
That said, there is the possibility that your e-mail hit a spam filter...
What, because of the midget porn? You guys are totally picky. Besides, my 4E ways would be blasphemous!
Seriously though, I doubt that I got spam filtered; I figured for whatever reason I just wasn't a good fit. On the other hand, you have been looking for a programmer (in Seattle of all places) for something like 18 months now, and given my background (and Paizo's relatively small size) I at least expected a "no thanks." No biggie either way.
Maybe this is a strange question... but with all of the available communication methods available nowadays do you really need this person to move to Seattle? It seems like it would be the perfect job for a remote employee. Not to mention that opens up at least your entire country for searching, and most likely the rest of the world (though I think if you removed the self-paid-for relocation you wouldn't need to look outside the US).
It has been stated that all the development stuff is inside the firewall, so telecommuting is a problem.
Also, any developer worth his salt will tell you there is nothing like being able to just turn around and ask the other guy what he was thinking.
As for relocation, I've priced what it would cost me to move from Florida to Seattle (for precisely this reason). If I pack things myself, and have it shipped, I'm looking at a minimmium of $4000 just for moving my stuff. (It's still cheaper than a U-Haul, and far cheaper than movers who lift things, which is what you usually get in paid relocation deals). Add to that the cost of transporting me and my car (minimum 7 or so gas fills, plus food and depreciating my vehicle, and that's if I sleep in the car.) That's a tremendous premium to ask Paizo to pay, especially if salary is their primary sticking point with applicants. It's perfectly reasonable of them to ask applicants to worry about their own relocation. Especially since that applicant would have to worry about setting up a home in a VERY expensive real estate market as well.
