I've noticed a few threads about 0-levels, and after reading the 'create water' one, I thought I'd add my own.
After the first playtest I ran (which, on the whole, went awesome) I'm already noticing a problem with Detect Magic.
See, the thing is; it tends to ruin plans. Players have already figured out that they can cast the spell as "standard proceedure" when entering a room, immidiately tipping them off to anything awry without expending resources. Perhaps the most copious example is in the case of illusion magic. Normally if the party is walking into an illusion, they don't know that casting detect magic might help them until there is some effect that might tip them off, but if the first thing a party does when entering a room is to cast "detect magic", they will immidiately know if there are any illusions around them that they should be aware of (which plays hell with my traps). They'll also know if there are magic traps on doors, etc.
I think Detect Magic needs to be moved up to a first level spell, or Pathfinder needs to re-think having 0-levels at will.
I would rule that illusions occlude all perception (or whatever sense they are meant to fool). Detect Magic relies on sight. It isn't "feel" or "hear" magic. Thus any illusion that has a visual component would fool detect magic as well.
I really don't have a problem with detect magic as a 0-level spell that can be cast as many times a day as desired. This is very similar to a mechanic I used in 1st edition where mages could detect magic by "shifting site". It added quite a bit of depth to the game without giving too much away.
Seeing that there is something magic there doesn't mean you can do anything about it. I love the old latent magical trap that won't fire off it's magical signature until it is tripped.
CJ
I don't think you understand.
Imagine the classic "illusionary floor" pit trap, in which you're in a dungeon hallway, there's a pit trap, with an illusion over it to make it look like normal dungeon floor.
Assuming there aren't any monsters that present an immidiate threat to the party, the party will walk into the room, cast detect magic (cause... why not?) go ahead and wait the couple of rounds for the caster to give the 'all clear' -and lo-
"hey guys, looks like I'm detecting some magic on the floor there, hold a sec..."
They'll discover it's an illusory floor and avoid it, find a way to make the disbelief save (throw a stone into it, poke it with a stick, etc) and poof, trap foiled by 0-level spell. Should this trap provide the players with EXP? Probably not, I think... which is a shame, cause they used to be challenging and cool.
How about monsters that rely on their powers of illusion? Say, an Aboleth, which relies on making its lair of water look like a cool refreshing spot to take a dip. Well there's nothing threatening about and the party sure could use a breather.... Just to be sure, detect magic? oh wait, don't take your armor off yet...
Or monsters which are polymorphed or altered to look like something else. Kind of plays hell with disguise magics when you can look at anybody without expending a resource and tell if they have disguise magics on.
The big difference between Pathfinder and dnd 3.5 here, is that in 3.5, sure you could cast detect magic when you got into a room... but you could only do that for so many rooms, and you generally wanted to save your detect magics for when you wanted to confirm a suspicion that there was magic, not to go out on a limb and check. You wouldnt do it to every room you came across or every minor NPC you met.
I guess as a DM I would never allow detect magic to be used to identify magical illusionary traps.
If anything I guess I would allow an interaction save at best to notice it. I would also allow the same thing if a character carried around a bag of pebbles and threw handfuls around each room checking for illusionary pit-traps, but that would get old after awhile which I would explain to the character.
I wouldn't ban bags of rocks either.
There are ways around that. Several low level spells come to mind. Magic Aura. Misdirection. Obscure Object. Nondetection. These can lead to making players mildly paranoid, but definitely entertaining. ("Oh my god, that plain vase in the corner isn't magical! SMASH IT!!")
You know, as far as magical traps go, it would be a simple matter to point out that magical traps, by nature of their creation, can't be detected by a detect magic spell. I mean, they do have to be created like a magic item, so I don't see a problem with this, and if you add that to magical traps, you don't have to mess with how detect magic works.
You know, as far as magical traps go, it would be a simple matter to point out that magical traps, by nature of their creation, can't be detected by a detect magic spell. I mean, they do have to be created like a magic item, so I don't see a problem with this, and if you add that to magical traps, you don't have to mess with how detect magic works.
Or perhaps traps that are set off only when examined with Detect Magic.
Ouch!
CJ
Because I’m evil and sadistic, my solution to this would be to place an easy to spot magic trap with a non-magic trap around it. Players boldly stride around the glowing square only to set off the spear throwing mechanical trap. It’s all about misdirection.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Firstly just plopping an illusory wall or floor in a room with nothing else around it is just poor dungeoncraft. A caster taking 3 rounds to detect the presence of magic, finding the number of and most powerful of said magics, and finally the location and strength of all magics is just screaming "Shoot me!" Illusions must be layered with more illusions or mechanical traps and guardians.
Alternatively, one could depower detect magic a bit. Instead of a spell that is basically thermal vision for magic aruas, why not require it to be used with close examination? Or, have it start as a general sensation of direction, and with increased focus (Perception check?), the magical auras become more detectable.
Here's another example of balancing Detect Magic:
The players enter a room. There's a finely crafted sword mounted on the wall. It's a magical weapon. It's also the bait in a nonmagical pit trap. Sure, the sword registers as easy pickings magic item, but the switch on the mount it's attatched to doesn't. In that case, player greed and caution still determine if the trap goes off or not. Detect magic might even make them more likely to fall for it.
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If I were in a 3.5 group that found itself often facing magical traps, I would invest in a wand of detect magic pronto (actually, I've been in this situation - one in which we had no rogue to disarm traps, no less) and use that throughout the entire dungeon to at least help us bypass the magical traps. A wand of detect magic is cheap enough that it was like using at will.
of course, a GM can also refuse to let players find a wand of detect magic.
and then a player can take the feat to make wands of detect magic. *shrug*
It's not that much diferent, just a little cheaper
/ali
After the first playtest I ran (which, on the whole, went awesome) I'm already noticing a problem with Detect Magic.
See, the thing is; it tends to ruin plans. Players have already figured out that they can cast the spell as "standard proceedure" when entering a room, immidiately tipping them off to anything awry without expending resources.
Yeah, sure, there are ways to "work around" the problem, but I'm with awp832 on this; at-will detect magic can be a mood killer (and so are most "detect something" spells for that matter).
I think detect magic should remain a 0-level at-will spells, but it should be re-written. It could be tied to a skill, where your skill check serve as your Will save. Then again, you also don't want to run into a situation like:
PLAYER- "woah, that was a rough fight, now let's have a look at this cool sword. It has to be magical! I cast detect magic"
DM- "Ok, make your roll (Check fails). Meh if there is any magic in it you fail to notice it"
I don't know, its late and I don't have any good ideas, but I still think that awp832 has a point.
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I wouldn't ban bags of rocks either.You should participate in the "Bags of Rocks Break Campaign!" thread, and have your mind blown.
;)
Note: no such thread exists... I hope.
To completely threadjack, that reminds me of one of the absolute best "dumb player moments" I've witnessed.
The group had found a bag of boulders with three pebbles inside (you know, the one that lets you pull out the pebbles, throw them, and they turn into boulders?). In any case, they've camped for the night and are mulling over their stash of magic items. Bored, the thief/acrobat grabs the bag and tells me "I'm bored, I'm going to juggle the stones".
Hilarity ensued. Needless to say, they took the bag out of his share of the loot.
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Unlimited Detect Magic has been an option since Complete Arcane introduced the Warlock. They got it at will at second level. Yes, a simple illusion over a pit is easy to detect, so just use nonmagical trap doors that are pressure activated. Combine traps so they don't have time to casually search (a timed lightning bolt that's disabled form the far end of a corridor works wonders). Some traps probably shouldn't register as magic until triggered. Use mechanical triggers for magical effect traps (the magic is on the far wall but the trigger is on the floor). If the corridor is long enough, the magical component could be out of range when the trigger is tripped. There are spells to disguise and suppress magic auras. There are ways to block magic. Arrange a hidden ambush to interrupt them. If it fails enough times the party will probably stop relying on it.
This reminded me of the following:
Skip ahead to 4:50 once it's buffered. :)