The first favored class for the half orc is Barbarian. I think halforc are humanoid close to nature and wild. So why Cleric ? I'd prefere druid favored class, like in the eberon/warcraft ... : orc are very close to nature, so they have shaman and so...
Cleric are more for civilised nation
Druid are more for wild nation
The first favored class for the half orc is Barbarian. I think halforc are humanoid close to nature and wild. So why Cleric ? I'd prefere druid favored class, like in the eberon/warcraft ... : orc are very close to nature, so they have shaman and so...
Cleric are more for civilised nation
Druid are more for wild nation
Alternately, cleric is for those half-orcs trying to deny their brutish, nasty side. Druid is for those who embrace their harsher nature closer to the green.
One potential world-build problem is this--if you state that half-orcs are closer to nature than humans, this suggests that orcs might be better druids than humans as well. Unless this is the case to be made (and I've not read the Classic Monsters redo book yet), it's a tightrope that must be carefully traveled....
Steven
I'd almost be inclined to say that it should be rogue. Barbarian for half-orcs who shun society and live in the wilderness, and rogue for half-orcs who are shunned by society and thus turn to the mean streets.
Of course, cleric makes a lot of sense, too. What better way to ingratiate and integrate yourself into a community and find acceptance than by joining its clergy. And without a Wisdom hit, half-orcs make pretty good priest classes. I know in 3.5, I typically had half-orcs as the spiritual powers even in orc tribes.
I also say go for druid. I go with PF Orcs here, with info from the Gazetteer and Classic Monsters Revisited, but since some of this will have to become PF core, it applies to PF-RPG as well:
They're tribal in nature, which more suggests druids than clerics.
They've got shamans, which I'd say are druids.
They follow Rovagug, the Rough Beast, which is all about monsters. I'd say that more fits druids than clerics, who'd be all for demons and devils and angels and all that. Rovagug's CE, and druids need to be neutral, but I think that can work.
But despite all that, Cleric can work, too.
(what with Grummush having such mortal-ish characteristics, like eyes).
Eye.
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I personally favor barbarian and rogue for the half-orc's favored classes, but I think the choice depends on the design goal behind favored classes in general, which (to me) isn't clear based on the current line-up.
Before, with favored classes allowing PCs to avoid a multiclass penalty, they seemed focused on (and fairly well-suited to) modeling a field of study that stereotypical members of the race were likely to focus on or at least dabble in: ie elves dabbling in wizardly magic, dwarves at least dabbling in the fighting arts or halflings tacking on a few roguish skills.
The alpha rules change to a hit point bonus rather than avoidance of a penalty doesn't make a lot of difference in that grand scheme, but with the addition of a second favored class for most races, I think some metagame focus crept in to favored classes -- with a tendency to provide varied options to allow a character to claim that bonus hit point rather than supporting racial preferences.
For instance, halflings gaining wizard as a favored class doesn't strike me as playing to the stereotype -- rather, with their bonus to Intelligence it makes sense in a metagame way. Same with half-orcs having cleric (or druid) as their second favored class. I think the case could be made for either druid or cleric (as religious groups are probably among the most likely to adopt an unwanted half-orc orphan). But rogue just seems so much more natural.
I'd rather see the favored classes serve to support the iconic roles of each race, even if that means every race doesn't have a warrior/spellcaster option. For several races, this seems to have been done -- dwarf, elf, gnome -- the halfling and half-orc are the only standouts. And really, the half-orc fluff even stresses that those who live among humans often turn to a life of crime, so rogue just seems to make sense.
EDIT: Just realized that with this release halfling favored classes changed to rogue and bard. So half-orcs are the last standout.
I actually prefer cleric to druid. Orcs don't exist in nature to merely use it or live in harmony with it. They run roughshod over it. I don't really see half-orcs breaking that tendency, or at least, I wouldn't like to.
Back in 1st edition, the half-orcs you all saw were assassins, fighters, thieves, and... clerics. Now, that might argue for making their other secondary class be rogue, which I could live with, but I'd certainly rank cleric above druid in preferences.
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Hmm, I like the cut of your jib.
Any other thoughts. I agree with this concept mostly...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I vote druid, for most of the reasons already expressed here, and also because I can use it as a stigma for druids... associating druids heavily with "savage" humanoid cultures and cleric with civilization (of whatever race) makes for better flavor than just two variations on divine casting. It also makes PC druids "a little off" which I like.
I think the Iron Kingdoms RPG did a FANTASTIC job of re-imagining the druids, definitely giving them their own niche in flavor as well as crunch.
I agree with druid. Below is a repost of my post on this thread where several more people agree (and disagree) about the druid as a favored class.
Dark Druid. The savage kind that read entrails of sacrifices to fortell the future. Not (necessarily) evil, but primal. Survival of the fittest.
I was waiting to see what Golarian/Pathfinder backstory for Half-Orcs favoring Cleric is going to be. Often their story is cool enough to make me change my mind. Otherwise I am going to go with Druid instead of Cleric as a favored-class also
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You could just garb your cleric in a more "savage" outfit of animal skins. Both Cleric and Druid fill the role of entrail reader, but then so do Diviners.
Personally, I don't think of Orcs as nature embracers. They are more masters of the environment than a piece of it. They seem to show a great contempt for those who embrace the wild (elves, gnomes, and fey), as well as a contempt for basic forestry. I used the Druid for the divine outcast from the tribe (tried to protect the environment instead of exploit it for military gain).
Yeah, I vote Druid. I like it because it implies that there is a certain "savagery" or primal goodness to the Druid class. Helps to differentiate from the Cleric in the view of society.
I have to go with Cleric. While I see half-orcs worshiping spirits, beasts, or other lesser entities I don't see them as someone interested in living in harmony with nature and animals. They could worship the elements, storms, etc without being a druid. They don't strike me as guardians of the forest so much as physical evangelists/prophets.
Besides, the whole Druid/Shaman thing has been played to death in Warcraft so lets go back to the original inspiration of them from Tolkien.
I vote Cleric Orcs do not seem t me like they live in Harmony with Nature more like try to beat it into submission not the way a druid is IMHO.
I've got to go with cleric on this one. I know that some tribes might be more nature oriented, but I think by and large, most orc tribes seem to be more "generally oriented" toward the divine, not nature oriented, if that makes any sense.
Plus, as Steven said above, its hard to justify half-orcs being better at the class of druid if orcs don't have a strong tradition of druid. I can picture the cunning half orc often maneuvering into the tribes priesthood, and a half-orc in human society finding solace in religion, but I'm not sure druid really follows automatically.
To be honest, regardless of ability score bonuses, I'd almost say that halflings make more sense having druid as a favored class, to show the duality between city dwelling halfing "survivors" and pastoral halflings living out of the way of trouble.
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I understand your choice of Cleric - for Half-orc followers of Rovagug (or Grummsh in another setting).
You could declare Half-orc favoured classes as Barbarian and Druid.
However, the Dieties section could grant favoured class Cleric to specific races for specific deities, to help increase Half-orc followers of appropriate deities, but reduce the those of against-type Deities.
This mechanic could be used to grant favoured class to other race/deity combinations, if appropriate.
I'm not in favor of the orc druid as much. I believe that the cleric is more fitting to this race, so I vote cleric. Maybe Greyhawk has tainted my view, but it's a good taint.
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Cleric are more for civilised nation
Druid are more for wild nation
Someone said this, and I strongly agree: Druids are not Clerics.
That being said, when it comes down to assigning the favored divine spellcaster role, the question is not "is the race savage or civilized" but rather "what does the race believe as a core tennant?"
Do you HONESTLY see orcs worshipping and protecting nature? Or do you see them plowing through nature, subverting it to their will and using it as they see fit? Do you think any byproduct of orcish society supports balance and careful interaction with the world around it?
Personally, I don't think orcs would be either clerics OR druids. My interpretation of orcish society is "might makes right." Whereas you and I see betrayal, dishonesty, etc. as undesireable traits, to these folk I see it as the ends justify the means. Trials by combat, leadership through conquest, we take what we want because it is our right through superior strength.
As such, I would see some sort of ancestral worship being prevalent. Worship would be totemistic, attempting to take on the desirable characteristics from some great ancestral warlord or shaman in an attempt to enhance one's own abilities. I'd see them as channellers of ancient spirits, givers of curses, healing would be enough to prevent death but pain and scarring would remain, etc.
Out of all of that, the ONLY druidish trait I would consider would be for orcs to channel the characteristics of animalistic traits they wished to embody, and would therefore become bears, or great cats, or screaching eagles, etc.
I vote cleric.
Shaman can be a cleric by another name. I archetype maybe full plate holy wielding divine warrior, but it doesn't have to be played that way. Staff wielding hide wearing nature guiding cleric works just as well. There is a reason the cloistered cleric is so liked. It's just another idea. I never of wild shape when I think of shaman type nature warrior that I in-vision the orcs to have. I see them respecting nature for it's life giving and life taking abilities, but their not protecting of nature, more just living in it. I think more Celtic religious warrior. I hope the cleric stays as a favored class, not that either or is that game changing.
Fizz
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Personally, I don't think orcs would be either clerics OR druids. My interpretation of orcish society is "might makes right." Whereas you and I see betrayal, dishonesty, etc. as undesireable traits, to these folk I see it as the ends justify the means. Trials by combat, leadership through conquest, we take what we want because it is our right through superior strength.
But we're talking about half-Humans here (as my one of half-Orc characters refer to himself), not Orcs.
I don't see orcs worshiping nature, but I definitely see half-orcs worshipping nature. You know, after the full orc cleric demands that the weak half-orc babe be abandoned in the woods to die. Or the human lynch mob drives out the half-orc child, to live in the wilds at the edge of town. I could definitely see many of the half-orcs who are shunned by society turning to the worship of nature.
This makes for a VERY plausible background - I like it!
Just to open up the discussion a little, I could also see half-Orc favoured class being Rogue, for similar reasons - their human natures enabling them to survive on their wits moreso than Orcs, and having to resort to shadier means of earning a living within civilised areas.
Though a half-Orc Rogue is more likely to rely on Strength and Intimidation than Agility and Guile, Rogue should be a common, if not favoured, class for half-Orcs - at least as much as Cleric or Druid.
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But we're talking about half-Humans here (as my one of half-Orc characters refer to himself), not Orcs.This makes for a VERY plausible background - I like it!
Just to open up the discussion a little, I could also see half-Orc favoured class being Rogue, for similar reasons - their human natures enabling them to survive on their wits moreso than Orcs, and having to resort to shadier means of earning a living within civilised areas.
Though a half-Orc Rogue is more likely to rely on Strength and Intimidation than Agility and Guile, Rogue should be a common, if not favoured, class for half-Orcs - at least as much as Cleric or Druid.
I really think both of the half races should be able to choose their favored class at 1st level.
The first favored class for the half orc is Barbarian. I think halforc are humanoid close to nature and wild. So why Cleric ? I'd prefere druid favored class, like in the eberon/warcraft ... : orc are very close to nature, so they have shaman and so...
Cleric are more for civilised nation
Druid are more for wild nation
You make a good point. Maybe a dual natured favored class, so it could be both barbarian and druid.
It might say something like this?
"Favored Class: A half orc may chose ether barbarian or druid as their favored class. They must chose once they have put a level into ether of these classes. They do not need to chose the class that they first place a level into as their favored class."
My preference is barbarian and fighter for half-orcs favored classes, with rogue and cleric a runners up.
To me druids are protectors of the wild, while orcs (and half-orcs by extension) are rapine despoilers of the wild. Druidic half-orcs being fairly common just don't fit for me.
I tend to think of "uncivilized" half-orcs as being barbarians and more "socialized" half-orcs as being fighters or rogues.
My preference is barbarian and fighter for half-orcs favored classes, with rogue and cleric a runners up.
To me druids are protectors of the wild, while orcs (and half-orcs by extension) are rapine despoilers of the wild. Druidic half-orcs being fairly common just don't fit for me.
I tend to think of "uncivilized" half-orcs as being barbarians and more "socialized" half-orcs as being fighters or rogues.
The orcs and half-orcs of the Golarion setting are rapine (don't like this or the rape half-orc fluff) despoilers?
Or in the eberron setting?
TO YOU orcs (and half-orcs by extension) are rapine despoilers of the wild.)
Go, go druid HOs (stop doubling some classes as favored and ignoring the rest (two bard, two cleric; no monk, no druid)
My opinion is to go with druid.
Then again favoured class should be left to campaign setting and house rules to decide on a race favoured class. Favoured class presented in PF should be treated as suggestions.
Add another vote for druid.
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Personally I have always thought of the division between cleric and druid as more to do with what they worship rather than how civilized they are. A Druid might be like a modern enviromentalist who is perfectly content with civilization but is also concerned with nature. Meanwhile a cleric of Gozreh or Lamashtu could be just as savage as any barbarian. I would let a half-orc choose if they wanted cleric or druid but the choice is made once they take a level in one class or another. For the character that never takes a level in either the argument is academic anyway.
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I would have to say Barbarian and Druid, lets change the name to shaman and be done with it (whens the last naked dance around a stone circle in your game?) i see them as witchdoctors and tribal medicine men, not full plate wearing poster boys for the gods
halforc=uncivilized ( i like them better that way)
The point of giving half orcs extra WIS, was the thought that, enduring the trials of being a person born of a wild barberous race and in the "civilized world" of the other half, would give big insight to the individual...thus paving the way for any type of worship..often and quite flavorully so, something in opposition to the savage nature of the orc...be it Iomedae, or revering nature.
Being essentially a grognard, I always put druid as a subclass of cleric in my mind but IMHO I liked the Cleric-favored, somebody has to have that...
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I agree with Cleric. One, aside from Humans as the not so bad standard Cleric, the -2 Int really can hurt a Druid. Clerics need higher strength generally than Druids because after a few levels, the Druid can change their strength with their shape.
Clerics on the other hand, typically have heavier gear and are usually in combat more than Druids. I also agree, I find it very hard to ascribe any race as favored class Druid. It is to similar to wilder Clerics and rangers in my mind to justify it, and the pretence that all Half-Orcs are uncivilized, tribal, brutish, and nature dwellers is not at all a good representation of the race any more than Half-Elves are prissy, tree dwelling, pointy-eared humans that look down on the lesser races that don't live as long as they do (not literally).
However, all cultures, areas, and regions have Clerics. It might make sense to allow some sort of regional Half-Orc that would go with Druid over the others, but as a hole it just does not seem very justifiable outside of a pure mechanics that ignor logic standpoint, at least to me.
On the other hand, I hate the new Favored Class concept completely, so it doesn't matter in my games.
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I would have to say cleric over druid. This fits with 1E canon better. It also makes more sense. A half orc growing up in an orc tribe would, if not being strong enough to hold his own (fighter or barbarian) in the tribe, be smart enough to find another nich. That would be the role of cleric. This would allow the smart half orc to work into a power behind the throne position as advisor to the chieftan. His magic would also indebt the warriors of the tribe to him.
Of course rogue makes a lot of sense as well.
Personally, I think that if any race should have druid as one of their favored class choices it should be gnomes (druid or sorcerer). Bard never made sense to me when 3.5 switched it from illusionist; with their ability to speak with burrowing mammals (and the Golarion background for gnomes) they're better suited than half-orcs.
For all of the attempts to make cleric vs. druid into "civilized vs. savage," IMO it's more of an emphasis of gods vs. nature. A cleric is, first and foremost, a representative of their deity, even if the deity has sway over nature. A druid, on the other hand, is concerned primarily with nature, even if they worship a deity. Half-orcs in general (I'm not talking about a specific background) just do not seem to have a strong enough connection with nature to justify making druid a favored class choice. Their strength of will and search for acceptance, however, would make religion as strong a draw as their tendency toward violence (barbarian or cleric).
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What is a "strong connection with nature" though? The guy who ignores nature as a concept in the abstract but spends all day in wilderness, has all his clothes and utensils made from natural materials, and concerns himself primarily with his instincts and emotions is going to, I would argue, have a "stronger connection with nature" than the fellow who tends a temple garden in a giant city or advises farmers in towns about how to plant crops and fancies himself as believing in a "balance" between some conceptual idea of nature versus that of civilization while his actual interaction with and direct dependence on the former is minimal. So I think it really depends on whether or not half-orcs are more inclined to reject civilization and sedentism for wilderness and roaming than humans regardless of whether or not they're also inclined to imagine themselves as protectors of the woods and its little creatures or have a sentimental view of "Mother Nature". If so, druid might be appropriate, if not, then not really.
But you are talking about the entire race, not just some Orcs/Half-Orcs. Regardless of alignment, Orcs are tend to chop and burn down forests than live in them. Also, all of your arguements work just as well for Nature Related Clerics as they do for Druids, but in the Case of Clerics, it really does show the distinction between civilized and uncivilized Clerics.
Most druid aspects can be done with nature/primal Clerics just as easy and better (well in 3.5 they could).
What is a "strong connection with nature" though? The guy who ignores nature as a concept in the abstract but spends all day in wilderness, has all his clothes and utensils made from natural materials, and concerns himself primarily with his instincts and emotions is going to, I would argue, have a "stronger connection with nature" than the fellow who tends a temple garden in a giant city or advises farmers in towns about how to plant crops and fancies himself as believing in a "balance" between some conceptual idea of nature versus that of civilization while his actual interaction with and direct dependence on the former is minimal.
Again, I said "Half-orcs in general (I'm not talking about a specific background)." Stop trying to argue from a specific background concept. All half-orcs do not "spend all day in wilderness, have all their clothes and utensils made from natural materials, and concern themselves primarily with his instincts and emotions." There's nothing wrong with specific half-orcs choosing to be druids, but you need to show why all half-orcs, not just the "tribal wilderness dweller," would be well enough suited to the druid class (instead of the more general cleric) to justify it being one of their favored class choices.
Howdy all. New poster here. Printed and bound the Beta version a few months ago and have been cruelly subjecting my players to it. They've actually been very, very appreciative of the rules set, with very few complaints... but anyway...
Druid vs. Cleric?
My vote would be for Druid. I don't necessarily see Druids as protectors of any kind, just mystics that seek to understand nature, and the various roles within. Being shunned by two societies, which the half-orc is comprised of. I see a more "totemic" shaman type, with how the individual half-orc views himself. Is s/he a predator? Does he relish in the hunt, knowing that he's doing nature's job of culling the herds? And if it actually keeps the "balance", so be it.
Maybe it's the whole "semantics" thing. People have their own definition of "druid" that evokes certain core concepts. The term druid itself kind of grates me, as I think it's a culturally-specific term (as bard does the same), so I tended to use the word shaman instead (until the Unnameable Company came out with the Spirit Shaman class). But, as Druid has always been a mainstay core class, keep it in. Though I think adding a kind of totemic feat path for wild shape and other abilities would be a rather interesting touch, especially for a more "wildman" character.
As an aside... I've been reading somewhere that Orcs are actually from Etruscan (Italian) legend, and are the servants of the underworld deity of the early peoples there named, of all things, Orcus. The orcs were essentially boogeymen sent to punish those who are really bad, sending them to the afterlife so that Orcus can give them an eternal punishment. I think having a sub-race of truly evil orcs and half-orcs with a favored class Sorcerer (with like, a free Spell Focus [Necromancy] feat for the race). In my settings, I made orcs like that, until I got a hold of Dragon Compendium, and then I made the Death Master the favored class (as it dealt with Orcus specifically). I wonder if Paizo will be releasing an update of those base classes from that book. I found them quirky and entertaining (especially the Mountebank, for some reason).
What are you talking about? I am not arguing from a specific background concept I hold. I specifically said, *if* horcs in the Pathfinder setting *are* more prone to reject civilization compared to full humans, then druid could very well be a possible favored class. The fact that barbarian is already a favored class for horcs however, does seem to show (regardless of setting) that they tend to have an inclination for wildnerness, as the barbarian's skill list and flavor would demonstrate.
Again, I said "Half-orcs in general (I'm not talking about a specific background)." Stop trying to argue from a specific background concept. All half-orcs do not "spend all day in wilderness, have all their clothes and utensils made from natural materials, and concern themselves primarily with his instincts and emotions." There's nothing wrong with specific half-orcs choosing to be druids, but you need to show why all half-orcs, not just the "tribal wilderness dweller," would be well enough suited to the druid class (instead of the more general cleric) to justify it being one of their favored class choices.
Barbarian is a favored class for half-orcs because of the "savage warrior" archetype. A warrior archetype based on "an inclination for wilderness" would be the ranger. Half-orcs are presented as being caught in-between orc and human backgrounds/societies (similar to half-elves, but less readily accepted by either) and having to forge their own destiny. This can result in "rejecting civilization," but IMO it's more likely that half-orcs would look for a place/role to fill in society, where they can use their abilities to gain some measure of belonging (like being an adventurer). One of the big draws with religion in D&D is that the demonstrable spiritual connection with a deity (spellcasting, etc.) is mostly independent of mortal organizations; certain individuals or groups of the god's followers may look askance at the half-orc cleric, but they can't deny the deity's favor. A favored class option of cleric is more general than druid because it doesn't presume anything about the background of the half-orc, such as whether they've "rejected civilization," or not.
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I don't think most druid aspects can be done just as well with "primal clerics" because the problem is a druid's entire spell list, skill list, and extra features (woodland stride, wild shape, venom immunity, wild empathy, etc.) are all oriented towards dealing with wilderness settings or have a wild flavor, whereas a "nature-based" cleric would only get a few domain spells or maybe...
It is true that Druids get specific stuff, but that was actually the point. A Nature Cleric of Swamp Orcs,(who might go with Water and Death, Water and Plant, or a lot of different things) can be a lot different from a a nature Cleric of the mountains (who might go with air, cold, earth, weather, etc. . .). A Druid would just be a Druid, no different than any other Druid as far as spells, skills, and most class abilities.
My vote is for druid.
Teh rogue would make the most sense for the half-orc, but barbarian fits more than rogue.
The reason for my vote for druid, is the reason why barbarian is better for half orcs.
Halforcs arent accepted by either society. It's like a half african american, half caucasian kid in the 1950s. The white didn't like him because he was "half black" the african americans didnt like him because he was "half white".
This is our half orc, racial predjudice is about because of constant wars between orcs and humans. The half-elf doesnt have this problem because their is no regular emnity between elves and humans.
Because "society" (either one) rejects the half-orc, the barbarian fits good because he relys on his savage narture rather than formal training as a warrior (fighter vs. barabarian) which is is less likely to get.
Druid is a nature preist, this to me is where an outcast would likely get accepted. Druids are by nature reclusive to begin with, but they are not by nature prejudice. Druids are more "witch doctory" or "shamanish" as well and by that archetype are weird in and of them selves.
Also by archetype, the half orc is racial best suited to be a wildshaping meleer the same way he is best suited for a wild drolling barbarian.
Persoanlly, I like 3.5's take on the Monk being a common class for half orcs because it was a common thing for the kung fu monasteries to take in orphans and misfit kids as apprentices, which the half orc definately is.
The animal kingdom is well known for taking in an abandoned cub, Tarzan, mowgly, and the whole "raised by bears" or "raised by wolves" mythology of the american mountain men.
Druid fits.