Jason: Please get rid of those +2 / +2 Feats!

[James Blair]

I'd like to name the feat "Skill Synergy". Add a +2 synergy bonus to any two related skills. Then eliminate the "normal" skill synergy bonuses. Now the synergy bonuses "work together"!

This also frees up all these cool feat names for something more creative!

[SirUrza]

Skill Adept, Skill Synergy.. all the same, but I think the names need to remain linked to this feat. They allow you to quickly identify how the +2 is grouped and further promoted the backward compatibility of this feat.

[KnightErrantJR]

SirUrza wrote:

I'd go for something like this..

------------------
Skill Adept
Benefit: Choice a skill group below. You gain a +2 bonus in both skills.

Acrobatic: Acrobatics and Climb.
Alterness: Appraise and Perception.
Athletic: Fly and Swim.
Deceitful: Bluff and Disguise.
etc. etc. etc.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. This bonus does not stack with itself. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new skill group.

I liked the way you suggested this, with the general feat described, then the specifics listed in the feat description, which allows the feat to take up less space, and you could note that the DM is free to add new skill groupings as he sees fit.

[Kong]

We use a house rule in our games, to increase the use of these feats. We added a stipulation that changed both of those skills from Cross Class Skills into Class Skills, along with the +2 Bonus.

The get more use now, and thier useful through out a characters career. Although Im not sure how this change would effect the New Skills system in the Pathfinder Rules.

Another alternate house rule we use in our 3.5 games is that Cross Class Skills only take 1 skill point per rank, but the max levels still remain as normal. It always worked for us, increasing the amount of custimization for characters... while still keepin class skills intact (something my players like).

[Rathendar]

James Blair wrote:

I'd like to name the feat "Skill Synergy". Add a +2 synergy bonus to any two related skills. Then eliminate the "normal" skill synergy bonuses. Now the synergy bonuses "work together"!

This also frees up all these cool feat names for something more creative!

With the new Pathfinder skill rules, i'd actually be in favor of the +2/+2 skills being changed to make 1 or 2 skills into class skills instead. Or perhaps that could simply be a different feat.

[Lady Melo]

Skill focus would be the same as making a cross class skill into a class skill. The +3 bonus is the same, and under the new skill system there isn't much of a difference after that if I recall. However alpha 3 is going to tweak skills a bit so this could change.

[Rathendar]

Lady Melo wrote:

Skill focus would be the same as making a cross class skill into a class skill. The +3 bonus is the same, and under the new skill system there isn't much of a difference after that if I recall. However alpha 3 is going to tweak skills a bit so this could change.

Not exactly the same IMO, as you can take skill focus in a class skill and add +3 to the +3.

[David Jackson 60]

You could also add some other stuff to them and even lessen one of the bonuses.

Like +2/+1 on the skills and then add a +1 bonus to something like natural armor, ranged attacks within 30', +5 feet to base movement...actually you could roll some of the less functional prereq feats into them like dodge and Point-blank shot.

The open +2/+2 choice isn't bad either.

[Dean Kimes]

Asgetrion wrote:

Does anyone agree with me that some of those are just odd, and frankly, I've rarely seen anyone picking them for their characters. I mean -- 'Atletic' gives you +2 on your Swim and *FLY* (?) skills (shouldn't that be Climb?) and Stealthy +2 on Escape Artist and Stealth. In my opinion they don't even add any flavour, since a character who takes Skill Focus o n Stealth or puts enough ranks in it is far more "stealthier" than a fighter or a low-level rogue who would pick this feat.

So, I'm suggesting that either the bonuses are more significant (i.e. worth burning a Feat on skill bonuses) and the Feats are tweaked a bit so the benefits match the flavour (i.e. 'Athletic' doesn't really bring flying to mind...) *OR* these Feats are cut from the game altogether.

Some of them might be redesigned as Racial/Background Feats, though.

These feats are extremely useful. I think you are thinking of them in the wrong way, they are not there for min-maxing (which I abhor btw) but to allow characters to be better at something that isn't a class skill for them. Want to play a wizard who sneaks about a lot, getting +2 on hide and move silently is 4 levels worth of skill ranks since those are cross class skills. That's where those feats come in handy.

[Pax Veritas]

My players and I agree. We've reduced the clutter of all these into one Skill Bonus Feat. This feat, if selected provides +2 to any two feats. We hope this reduction makes its way into Alpha 3 PRPG.

[LazarX]

Asgetrion wrote:

Rezdave wrote:

Callous Jack wrote:

I'll be honest, I almost never see anyone take those.

I give them to NPCs all the time. Charisma-based Rogues and Diplomat-oriented PCs take them as well. I find them exceedingly useful.

Rez

I've given them to NPCs, too, but in my experience players are not exactly fond of them, because that +2 bonus on two skills is hardly comparable to Cleave, Power Attack, Energy Substitution, Toughness (the new version), etc. In a campaign in which skills and "non-combat actions" play a more important role they might be worth burning a Feat or two, but I can't really recommend them to any players in a "typical" D&D campaign.

Well there ARE campaigns that go beyond pure hack and slash. I've found one such feat that gave me the bonus to my Gather Information and Diplomacy skills highly useful in Arcanis. Magical Aptitude which boots Use Magic Device and Spellcraft is a heck of a bonus for just about any Artificer.

[LazarX]

Pax Veritas wrote:

My players and I agree. We've reduced the clutter of all these into one Skill Bonus Feat. This feat, if selected provides +2 to any two feats. We hope this reduction makes its way into Alpha 3 PRPG.

What you call clutter, I call variations in flavor. I strongly believe in feats which have thematic pairs as opposed to "+2 to whatever 2 skills you want."

[Neithan]

In our current party, I have the Athletic feat, at least one rogue has Stealthy, and I regulary take Alertnes.
With the increase in feats per level in PF, I think they will actually see significantly more use.

[SirUrza]

Neithan wrote:

In our current party, I have the Athletic feat, at least one rogue has Stealthy, and I regulary take Alertnes.

With the increase in feats per level in PF, I think they will actually see significantly more use.

*nods*

Level 1 rogue...

Sneak + Focus + Class Skill + 1 rank = +9 Stealth

It's awesome. :)

[SirUrza]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I liked the way you suggested this, with the general feat described, then the specifics listed in the feat description, which allows the feat to take up less space, and you could note that the DM is free to add new skill groupings as he sees fit.

I'm glad someone does, hope Jason saw it or did something similar. :)

[Asgetrion]

LazarX wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

Rezdave wrote:

Callous Jack wrote:

I'll be honest, I almost never see anyone take those.

I give them to NPCs all the time. Charisma-based Rogues and Diplomat-oriented PCs take them as well. I find them exceedingly useful.

Rez

I've given them to NPCs, too, but in my experience players are not exactly fond of them, because that +2 bonus on two skills is hardly comparable to Cleave, Power Attack, Energy Substitution, Toughness (the new version), etc. In a campaign in which skills and "non-combat actions" play a more important role they might be worth burning a Feat or two, but I can't really recommend them to any players in a "typical" D&D campaign.

Well there ARE campaigns that go beyond pure hack and slash. I've found one such feat that gave me the bonus to my Gather Information and Diplomacy skills highly useful in Arcanis. Magical Aptitude which boots Use Magic Device and Spellcraft is a heck of a bonus for just about any Artificer.

Yep, certainly -- in most of my campaigns those very same skills are usually *much* more useful than having high AC or BAB. Yet note that I mentioned that this might not be so in a "typical" D&D campaign in which Feats such as Power Attack, Cleave, or Spell Focus are much more relevant to your character.

Also note that you could "build" those "+2/+2 to skills"-Feats easily and without having to sacrifice X pages in PF RPG to listing them.

[Arknath]

Sebastian wrote:

I said this in the last thread, but add me to the chorus that hates these feats - not because players don't use them, but because they are a waste of space. Rather than trying to come up with a clever name to tie two random skills together, just create a generic Skill 2-Fer Feat or whatever you want to call it, and allow that feat to add +2 to two chosen skills. It's absolutely ridiculous to have to pore through books trying to find that one feat that gives you a bonus to two random skills, particularly when the names do not convey immediately what skills receive the bonuses. You might as well come up with a new flavor of Skill Focus for every skill (Crafty Potter - Receive a +3 bonus to Craft: Pots; Frogger - Receive a +3 bonus to Jump).

The +2 to two feats are lazy filler and should be dumped. There's nothing that irritates me more than receiving "20 new feats!" only to find out that 3 of those "new" feats are the same boring old stupid feats I've already seen a dozen times in the PHB.

WOW. I love this. Count me among the ranks of the "You're s***ing me?? 2 dozen+ feats that do the EXACT same thing? Does WotC think I'm THAT stupid?"

I created my own feat called "Skill Synergy" that basically gave synergy bonuses to skills that used the same type of ability score (physical/mental). It has worked well in my campaigns.

"lazy filler" indeed. This is a waste of space and I shouldn't, as a consumer of ANY product, have to sift through 20 of the exact same thing that is trying to be passed off as something different.

[arbados]

I have to say that in all my years I have never seen a player willingly take any feat which offers them a bonus to skills. The only time it was taken was when it was a pre-requisite for a prestige class and even then I modified the bonus because the player was disappointed that they had to take this feat. In truth I think these feats are always overlooked by players and really add no interest. I personally think they should be removed and the thought of more interesting feat choices be offered.

Take this into serious consideration as it was one of the things which I felt just took up space in the feat sections. In truth, if you must include this there should be ONE simple feat which can offer you a bonus to the selected skill of your choice, period. No need to name each feat which offers a skill bonus to a different skill by another name. They all pretty much do the same thing, but just for a different skill. One feat which offers a bonus to a selected skill of your choice. The end!

I also love Pathfinder and will be getting it for my group!

[Gailbraithe]

I firmly believe that the +2/+2 feats exist to be intentionally poor choices. WOTC knew that players want to feel a sense of game mastery, and intentionally created bad feats so that players who recognized them as bad would feel "smarter" for having done so.

I would replace them with a feat that gave a +2 bonus to any two skills that use the same attribute modifer (i.e. 2 Str skills, 2 Dex skills, etc.), and put a sidebar on the page they appear on that lists all of the +2/+2 feats it replaces, and leave it to DMs who are bothering to convert stuff work it out.

[Asgetrion]

Rathendar wrote:

James Blair wrote:

I'd like to name the feat "Skill Synergy". Add a +2 synergy bonus to any two related skills. Then eliminate the "normal" skill synergy bonuses. Now the synergy bonuses "work together"!

This also frees up all these cool feat names for something more creative!

With the new Pathfinder skill rules, i'd actually be in favor of the +2/+2 skills being changed to make 1 or 2 skills into class skills instead. Or perhaps that could simply be a different feat.

I suggested a Racial for humans (on another thread: see '[THINK TANK] Racial Feats') that would let you pick *ONE* skill (even a class-exclusive one) and make it a class skill with +2 Bonus on it. Having said that, I would keep them separate.

Instead of giving free skill ranks to humans, I might consider giving them 'Talented' feat (i.e. +2/+2) instead of bonus skill ranks -- would it work better?

[Bultez Mathias]

We could keep theses feats and add one benefit when you take them:

"When you take this feat, you can roll again the dice on a skill check 1/day for the skills for which you get a bonus. You can keep the better result."

That would make them really interesting now, and keep them usefull. I love feats that improves skills so i think it's a good idea to search how we can keep them but make them better :).

[Dr Simon]

Just to clarify a point here that others have highlighted:

In Monte Cook's "Arcana Evolved" he conflates all the +2/+2 skill bonus feats into a *single* feat - Skill Application, as mentioned.

The player (and GM) choose two (and here's the critical part) *thematically linked* skills to get the bonuses. So you could not have Stealth and Swim (as given above) unless you could come up with some damn good reason why the two are linked (Stealthy Swimmer? Doesn't really cut it, better to give a large bonus to Stealth whilst swimming). Swim and Profession (fisher) ("Riverfolk"), perhaps. Swim and Fly, perhaps.

Are they useful? A bit. The first and original was Alertness, whose main purpose was for all those monsters with heightened senses (the ones who were only surprised 1 in 6 under old rules). The rest seem to have ballooned from there.

Better still, offer a bonus 'background' feat at first level to be taken from one of these, or some other minor but occassionally useful feat.

[lutz]

Hi,

i used Alertness, otherwise i always prefered skill focus.

Keep the feats, because of backwards compatibility.

If we introduce a Talented feat with +2 to two skills of some choosing, we should establish a list that gives the names from the SRD to two specific choices as they fit into the skills.

If two skills are condensed to one skill in Pathfinder, we should establish that SRD name for the skill focus feat of the condensed skills.

Keep the feats, because of backwards compatibility.

[player42]

I heartily agree with the majority on this one. Combine all those individually named +2/+2 feats into a generic "+2 to any two skills" feat. That would make it much easier to go through the feat lists and find what you're looking for.

In my experience, few PCs take these feats unless it's a prestige class requirement. If you have few skill points, a +2 boost probably isn't enough to make you good at a skill; and if you have many skill points, you don't need it. In either case, there are almost always more beneficial feats for your character, and only a limited number of feat slots to fill.

In standard D&D3.5, I've suggested making these feats (and skill focus) more useful by allowing one to treat the indicated skills as class skills all the time. Since there's no point cost difference for cross-class skills in Pathfinder, that would be moot. Instead, they could allow one to take 10 when using the skills under duress, just like a rogue's Skill Mastery.

[King.Ozymandius]

Educated is a similar feat, which grants +2 for 2 Knowledge skills, and makes all Knowledge skills class skills. Gift of Tongues is another, which makes Decipher Script and Speak Language into class skills. I would prefer not to see these kinds of Feat removed from Pathfinder.

I've actually beefed the +2/+2 feats up in my games: the skills in question also become class skills. So, a Fighter who takes Magical Aptitude gains +2 for Knowledge:Arcana and Use Magic Device, and those two skills are considered class skills. Otherwise, I also find that these feats are ignored, which is a pity as they do add flavour and difference to characters.

One player of mine, who almost always plays Human Fighters, took Magical Aptitude at 1st level as a result for his PC in Heirs of Uskevres, which came in real handy for the players at several times during the game: he saved their collective butts at one point by wielding a Wand of Lightning Bolts, which an ordinary Fighter could not accomplish.

[Hayden]

I absolutely agree with the general concept of feat benefits that scale with level. Please, no more low level feats, unless you plan to introduce robust retraining mechanics, which however I'd love to see.

[Paizo Fan]

Surely when speaking of Acrobatics and Athletics it should be:

Acrobatics: Acrobatics and Fly
Athletics: Climb and Swim

I've always seen athleticism as the ability to do strenuous physical activity but acrobatics requires considerable time to master.

[Roman]

I agree with the OP, let's get rid of those feats altogether and instead implement rising bonuses for class skills with levels.

[Pangur]

Saurstalk wrote:

Skills should be condensed so that the +2/+2 feats are completely unnecessary.

Lord no. The condensed skills are one of the things I can stomach least about 4E (although getting rid of the skill rank system is even worse). Also, backwards compatibility pretty much goes down the drain if skills are condensed further than they already are in PF.

[Dread]

Im one for more is better...

I like more choices. I use these feats sometimes, and I've had players that do as well. When games have as much weight put on role playing as combat, you see more characters taking these.

That being said the generic 'skill adept' idea is usable...as long as the choices are outlined and not left for interpretation, otherwise I can see it being abusable.

[balakus01]

Keep the +2/+2 feats in the game for NPCs. Then add to these feats "once taken the two skills offered by this feat are now class skills for you". This way everyone has a use for them.

[Varisian Wanderer]

I've only rarely seen these feats used. Mostly for PrC requirements. Even then, many PCs would rather spend it on a more valuable feat, and have a "grit and bear it" approach. They can be useful for NPCs and monsters though.

Having a +2/+2 feat would be nice, though I'd limit it to skills that are tied to the same attribute. Bluff and Diplomacy. Escape Artist and Stealth. Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, etc.

[Brian Brus]

Sebastian wrote:

Rather than trying to come up with a clever name to tie two random skills together, just create a generic Skill 2-Fer Feat or whatever you want to call it, and allow that feat to add +2 to two chosen skills. It's absolutely ridiculous to have to pore through books trying to find that one feat that gives you a bonus to two random skills, particularly when the names do not convey immediately what skills receive the bonuses. ... The +2 to two feats are lazy filler and should be dumped.

This has been suggested several times, and I'm actually surprised that it wasn't implemented in the Alpha-Beta evolution. By offering a player-defined +2/+2 skill feat and naming it "Synergy," you would save a lot of page space in the feats section AND answer the old WotC D&D skill synergy issue.

[Ughbash]

I actually like the feats or some of the other ones that give a +2 on a broader category like Moradins smile or the exalted feat Nymph's Kiss (+2 charism based skills).

I think that the added ability of letting it go to +4 (in Beta) when you have 10 ranks in the skill lets it scale nicely also. This would allow you by level 10 to be better in a skill then someone who has it as a class skill, and if you have it as a class skill it this bonus stacks.

Now I am curious if it is the intent to allow all things which reflect skill bonuses to double in effect when 10 ranks are reached as a pseudo replacement for skill symetry?

Especially those aforementioned feats that are more general but broader like Moradin's Smile and Nymph's Kiss.

[Crystal Frasier]

Saurstalk wrote:

KujakuDM wrote:

choose two skills that are based off of the same stat for the +2/+2.

how does that sound for an ability

Again, it just seems like this is needlessly complicating what can be remedied by further condensing the skills and allowing only Skill Focus.

Below is my take on a comprehensive skill list that can survive without +2/+2.

Acrobatics: Balance, Escape Artist, Fly, and Tumble.
Appraise:
Athletics: Climb, Jump, [Run], Swim
Bluff (or Deception): Bluff, Disguise, Gamble.
Craft: (question - will these be broken down or combined? If broken down - what about condensing some into Smithing and also adding Mechanics)
Deft Hands: Disable Device (and Open Lock), Sleight of Hands
Diplomacy:
Drive: Drive and Pilot, including wagons, ships, etc.
Endurance: Concentration, [Endurance]
Handle Animal:
Heal:
Intimidate:
Investigate: Investigate, Research, Search
Know (arcana): Know (arcana), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Know (dungeoneering):
Know (engineering): Includes Architecture & Engineering and Demolitions
Know (geography):
Know (history):
Know (nature): Know (nature), Survival
Know (society): Know (art, business, civics, culture, local, nobility)
Know (planes):
Know (religion): Includes Theology and Philosophy
Know (sciences): Earth and Life, Physical Sciences
Know (tactics): Includes Behavioral Sciences
Know (technology):
Linguistics:
Perception: Listen, Spot and Sense Motive
Perform:
Profession:
Psicraft: Autohypnosis, Knowledge (psionics), Psicraft, Use Psionic Device
Ride:
Stealth: Hide and Move Silently

I'm in favor of condensing the skills a bit, but I disagree with how many you've condensed together. For example, Disable Device and Open Lock should definately be combined into one skill, as they're both about mechanics and manual dexterity; but I don't think Sleight of Hand has any place in there, since it's more about speed and grace. Likewise, I don't see why Escape Artist should be combined into the Acrobatics skill or Use Magic Device should be combined into Knowledge: Arcana.

Another problem is rolling too many skills of one prerequisite into a single skill, like taking half the Fighter's class skills (Climb, Jump, and Swim) and rolling them into one, or most of the Wisdom skills (Spot, Search, and Sense Motive) and combining them to one. Rolling Sense Motive into Perception also has the thematic issue of being a different sort of skill, reading and understanding people moreso than noticing fine details or distant objects.

Part of my problem with Star Wars Saga Edition was this very problem: They took the great idea of condensing the redunant skills and ran it into the ground, until you only had a small number of do-everything skills.

I'm also very much in favor of dropping the huge list list of +2/+2 feats in favor of a single feat that gives the character +2/+2 to two related skills.

[Demandred69]

I always take Iron Will or Grt. Fort. at some point. But I think they should be +3 instead of +2. I feel a bit robbed of a combat feat when I take them, but really want to be tough to mentally dominate or be paralyzed by ghouls.
I agree that +2 to skills isn't much. It really isn't. The +2, +2 to two skills seems good but doesn't separate you much from other characters in your ability with that skill. If I wanted a character that was a master at performing miming or something- I'd need that feat multiple times, and a high ability mod. for charisma.

[Brandon Gillespie]

I personally have taken these +2/+2 kinds of feats for my player characters. For my bard I took negotiator and for my Taldan figther PF society character, I took Persuasive. I would like the feats to STAY!

[james maissen]

Asgetrion wrote:

Does anyone agree with me that some of those are just odd, and frankly, I've rarely seen anyone picking them for their characters.

I know I tend to house rule them into one feat that I call 'Skill Synergy'.. pick two skills and they now grant synergy bonuses to one another. In 3.5 I would also make them class skills for the character, but not sure if that's needed in Pathfinder's new skill system.

Likely in a formal system there is probably a need to avoid stacking multiple copies of this as Pathfinder's synergy system stacks up (which is a nice addition btw). Probably just worth cutting off multiple synergies from doing so in the first place (which can keep Diplomacy checks reasonable).

-James

[Sir Hexen Ineptus]

I actually found that they are very useful for any skill oriented character. I am currently playing a trap finder/disabler focused character, and got both skill focus and the +2/+2 feats for them. While really want both the skill supported in both the cases, the extra bonus to the unwanted skill was very helpful in general use.

Most important in Pathfinder is the additional massive +5 bonus to these skill that have both the skill focus and the +2/+2 feats on them at rank 10. I think it was rank 10. Making their skills in that area eventually unparalleled or surpassed by anyone but the gods.

[Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Immora wrote:

I'm in favor of condensing the skills a bit, but I disagree with how many you've condensed together. For example, Disable Device and Open Lock should definately be combined into one skill, as they're both about mechanics and manual dexterity; but I don't think Sleight of Hand has any place in there, since it's more about speed and grace. Likewise, I don't see why Escape Artist should be combined into the Acrobatics skill or Use Magic Device should be combined into Knowledge: Arcana.

Another problem is rolling too many skills of one prerequisite into a single skill, like taking half the Fighter's class skills (Climb, Jump, and Swim) and rolling them into one, or most of the Wisdom skills (Spot, Search, and Sense Motive) and combining them to one. Rolling Sense Motive into Perception also has the thematic issue of being a different sort of skill, reading and understanding people moreso than noticing fine details or distant objects.

Part of my problem with Star Wars Saga Edition was this very problem: They took the great idea of condensing the redunant skills and ran it into the ground, until you only had a small number of do-everything skills.

I'm also very much in favor of dropping the huge list list of +2/+2 feats in favor of a single feat that gives the character +2/+2 to two related skills.

I am in disagreeance here, acrobatics includes contortion of the body which works perfectly with escape artist.

However you gave me an idea. Why not simplify it to skills that run off the same stat with noted exceptions?

[SavageJ]

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

However you gave me an idea. Why not simplify it to skills that run off the same stat with noted exceptions?

I was about the post the same thing, to be honest.

And someone posted on Page 1 of this thread Skill Adept as a possible Feat Name; I'm so using that.