RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I was livid! I felt like my puppy had been thrown into a chipper-shredder and I had just gotten kicked in the gut (which hurt because I was recovering from a appendectomy). First Dungeon & Dragon now a new edition.
The cheesy french guy kept saying, "Ze game will remain ze same." Yeah, right. Since then the game's been turned inside out and pressed into an entirely different mold. It's not my D&D anymore.
Viva la Pathfinder!
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My reaction was the same as my players reactions when I told them about it later that night. Screw that, we have good rules.
It did get me thinking about how I'd like to see the rules evolve. I even went back and cracked my old rolemaster books and looked over the parts of that system that I loved (I largely missed the 2nd edition experience playing rolemaster/MERP).
The PRPG is really interesting to me, as long as backwards compatability is still the brass ring.
The announcement has allowed me a lot more freedom to explore other games than I imagined. Were it not for the 4th Edition, I would not have dumped WotC (including Magic: the Gathering) and found:
- Pathfinder RPG, duh;
- Faerie's Tale, by Firefly Games, to play with my wife and daughter and her little friends;
- Dragon Warriors, for freakin' FREE!
Seriously, I have had a lot of fun over these past few months, and anticipate great things in my gaming future. I'll play with new people, with new adventures, with new systems, and remember why I love to game.
When 4E was first announced I grunted, thought Hasbro must need money and sighed that maybe a good game might come out of it all. The more I saw, the less I liked. It *might* be a good game (but it doesn't look like it to me), but after 33 years of playing, mostle DMing, D&D it just doesn't seem like D&D to me. The new license announcment was a "who cares" moment for me. I'm looking forward to Paizo's interpretaion of 3.5 and continuing the game I know and love. I do most of my own adventures / material anyway, but I like to read other peoples stuff and I am very happy to be able to look forward to "reading material" of the quality I've seen from Paizo.
But the biggest point that made me realize I love 3rd Edition was the first marketing video, where they basically called anyone who used 3rd Edition mechanics a Troglodyte (playing an outdated game with broken mechanics).
And I thought: What? Wait, didn't you SELL me those mechanics? Then I started looking at what "they" wanted to change in 4th Edition, and I realized:
- I don't find the grapple rules confusing
- I enjoy the timid early levels where death lurks around any corner
- I love getting to the upper levels, where you realize you are nearly a god, and compared to 1st level you are
- I like swinging a sword every round
- I like planning what spells I will use, and when to use them, and when I run out, I join the fray just like everyone else in the party
- I like rolling my own saving throws
- I like tactical combat. Problems with duration, get an egg-timer.
- Numerous other complaints of 3rd Edition are negligable
Amen to all that.
I sat in the hall at GenCon for the whole 4E announcement. At first I was really conflicted. On the one hand, I definitely felt it was too soon, and had the sense that it was all because Hasbro had run out of ideas and needed to do this just to sell me more books. But I was really impressed by the online tools promo they showed on the big screen, and wanted to keep an open mind. (I was very, very resistant to 3E at first after all, but became a true believer after sitting in on the 3.0 how-to workshop back at that GenCon.) But I was definitely confused by (and leery of) the fact that they were telling me it was all being done because I was so confused by things that had never in fact actually confused me.
I was honestly more infuriated by the RPGA announcement later that weekend that LG would be killed and we would all be going to the Realms in a year. (For the record, I love Greyhawk and hate FR with a fiery hate.) I believe someone asked if they couldn't just keep both campaigns going. The response was something along the lines that it took so much work from so many volunteers to make LG what it was, that they didn't want to insult their commitment, work and dedication by putting out two products that either asked them to do more or do as much with half the resources. I wanted to hit something after hearing that. (I guess I am not sure how you are honoring someone's years of commitment, work and dedication by throwing it all in the garbage to start over...)
The more bits and pieces I have heard about the actual changes and content in 4E since then, the more annoyed with it I have become. Especially the "roles" they tell you each class should play. To me, 3/3.5's core strength was the flexibility that let you play whatever role you wanted or play against type. Bah.
And the free 4E jump drive they handed out at GenCon? Broke the second time I used it. There's something karmic in that...
I do a lot of my reading on the toilet, I kid you not, it is the only place I can get some peace.
Thank you for over-sharing. That said, I do the same. ;)
When I first heard the 4e announcement, I thought it was a bit too soon, but was cautiously optimistic. I had been much more skeptical of 3E when it was announced and, as more tidbits came out, was won over by the changes. But this time, as more tidbits got announced, I became more skeptical.
I think there are some ideas that I can get behind: a once/encounter second wind, more encounter based powers for interesting things to do, particularly for characters that otherwise start with a once/day cool power, some meta-setting changes like grouping demons and devils and the astral seas rather than the Great Wheel.
But there are plenty of other changes that are just leaving me cold. I may plunder individual bits, but I really don't think I'll shift over to 4e, not with so much good 3.5 still unplayed by me.
I am further dismayed by the license information I'm hearing. I'd like to see multiple-edition support from producers of good content. I'd like to see publishers supporting both editions, particularly where they've already got a reasonably successful product line and want to try to develop and add another.
It has been an interesting contrast for me. I started out very optimistic about 4th edition and not even knowing about Pathfinder RPG potential. Then the more i heard about 4th the less and less i liked and started looking at options. The more I have heard about Pathfinder RPG the more i have liked it and now eagerly await the nest release. A shame that 4th edition is likely going to wreck my two favorite worlds (Realms and Eberron) in my opinion.
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I was sitting in the room at my first GenCon and I boo'd at the top of my lungs.
I realized then that this was nothing more than a money grab by WotC.
The Conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 which was necessary showed the suits one thing that the market would accept new core rule books after 4 years. Since core rule books make them the most money why wait. The comments that were made in regards to the GSL over the last few days proves that they want no one to create OGL material.
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Fear for small companies led to Anger at WoTC.
Anger Led to sheer hatred of WoTC.
Hate led to suffering.
I couldn't believe that they would do something like that until I thought about it.
Wizards is owned by Hasbro which is owned by Disney. Ahhhhh! That explains it. The people who brought us Pirates of the Carribean 3.
After figuring that out I felt sorry for the gamers who are slaves to the giant mouse.
My very first reaction was: "Didn't they just tell us that 4e was a long way away?"
My first reaction to the "information" that started trickling out was positive: What they told us sounded good. Then I read what they were doing to the Realms, and I was really angry. Add to that more information about the rules I didn't like (which was most, with the rest being no better or worse than 3e in my opinion) and all the mindless changing of D&D's flavour and history, and 4e was dead to me.
I'm just glad that Pathfinder stayed true to D&D's spirit instead of its name.
My initial reaction:
My players won't convert, because we barely converted to 3.5 in 2005 and we've spent too much money and time, collectively, in the last 3 years buying books and learning rules.
So, while I will buy the 4e books to support the "hobby" and check it out for curiosity's sake, I won't be playing 4e for quite some time, as I'll be playing it by myself....
....like World of Warcraft......(oh wait?)
In Ref to the OP:
I was still in shock from the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon Magazines, when they broke the long held silence, and still without really addressing the cancelation of a magazine series that has ran for a LONG time, (20 years or more?), they announce 4E and suddenly it is startilingly clear and present to my mind. They cancelled Dungeon, they cancelled Dragon, so they would have control of official content.
"Well," I told myself "mabye this won't be so bad... perhaps they will fix grapple, and polymorph" (both pains in my side). Then the previews began, each dropping farther and farther from source then the last. When they started into the "everyone has use per day and magic abilities" I lost it. I lost my faith that WotC wouldn't screw me. I lost my faith, already shaken by a few book releases that were lackluster, and the cancellation of my favorite magazines... that my favorite game publisher had my best interest at heart. I lost it. It became startlingly clear that, they're bottom line, was the bottom line. That black mark at the edge of the red finances...
Now to put exactly how I felt into context, I have to explain somthing. I use to work at a gaming store. When I started there it was a place that kids hung out all day at, games were played for the players, and all in all it was an AWESOME FLGS. Then, the owner, for reasons I won't go into, began being more worried about how much the place drew in. we were making our bottom line as a FLGS, but he wanted more. So we changed the Saturday night scene, and put in a poker tournament, I protested and refused to work with that crowd, which were often rowdy enough coming in that it was clear the amount they had had to drink already. Long story short, I got fired, and the place tanked without me, as the parents, and kids, who were the true support for the store, decided that I, (the local college kid in the education program), was the trustworthy one, and the owner, was not, since he was gambling, and allowing drunks in his store...
I feel the same thing is happening now. WotC being my FLGS and the new feel being the undesirable crowd. I don't want to run a game that resembles WoW meeting Ruroni Kenshin... I don't want every character throwing fireballs, I don't want the Wizard and Sorcerer to be able to always use spells... I want D&D not MMO...
They don't seem to understand that... and they don't seem to care what they're old, supporting crowd, wants and needs out of they're product. So I felt, frankly, betrayed... I felt like the wool had been pulled over my eyes, the rug pulled from under me, and the breath knocked out of me all in one go. It was bad.
Lucky for me, Pathfinder comes along. Here is Paizo, an old friend at this point, seeing what I see (imho), seeing a need for that old feel gamers who are the main support have thrived on for 30+ years. Dungeons, deep dank places, of danger and darkness, and Dragons, mythical titans of magical and physical stature... pitted agianst the best our wits can toss out there. They put out the first series of modules and I was blown away. For the first time in years, I ran modules as written....
Then they announced it... the split, Pathfinder RPG! Wow Loot...
I am sticking with you Paizo Community, Pathfinder... 4e be damned...
o and can I point out... Gnomes Rock...
Later,
Elvnsword
How did I react? Curiosity at first. No surprise, though. I'd said to my small group of gamers whrn SWSE came out that it was a 4e precursor. We even bought and tried SWSE for just that reason. Tried. That system, while having some good points, did not meet our needs. 4E looks like it will do even less to met them.
Let me explain a bit about myself. I like to say I'm 3f+...female, fat and 50+. I've been gaming for around 30 years. I started in the Army, with Fantasy Trip. I met my husband in our local college gaming club, playing Champions. We did do some D&D but it was frustratingly limited. I always wanted to play a Bard. Possibly because if I had the talent, I'd like to BE one rl. So, to some extent, we welcomed AD&D 2e. But it wasn't flexible enough. Hey, we even tried Rolemaster. Then we saw the info being released for 3e. It looked good. Still, what I remember the most was an editorial on coming classes. It basically stated that they had wanted to drop the Bard as usless, but players demanded one. Same with Sorcs. The whole free spellcasting made them too powerful bit. So, I was cautious. We got and enjoyed 3e, but for me the apparent attitude that the players, the CUSTOMERS, had forced them to add classes they didn't want, that they were just tossing a bone to those few pushy folks, left a sour taste.
And that's where I'm at for 4e. I see that attitude as still being there. I HATE being told someone else knows what's best for me. And all the 4e posts and releases about how 'cool' this new system is, can't you see it, tuns me off. My husband lost interest in 4e way before I did. I saw a post on the 4e boards about paizo's alpha and came here.
I'm not saying 4e is bad. I do like a lot of the stuff they've released. But neat/cool bits and pieces do not a game system make. for us, we're staying with 3.x/paizo. We may mine stuff from 4e, but we'll keep the system we enjoy.
How did I react? Curiosity at first. No surprise, though. I'd said to my small group of gamers whrn SWSE came out that it was a 4e precursor. We even bought and tried SWSE for just that reason. Tried. That system, while having some good points, did not meet our needs. 4E looks like it will do even less to met them.
Let me explain a bit about myself. I like to say I'm 3f+...female, fat and 50+. I've been gaming for around 30 years. I started in the Army, with Fantasy Trip. I met my husband in our local college gaming club, playing Champions. We did do some D&D but it was frustratingly limited. I always wanted to play a Bard. Possibly because if I had the talent, I'd like to BE one rl. So, to some extent, we welcomed AD&D 2e. But it wasn't flexible enough. Hey, we even tried Rolemaster. Then we saw the info being released for 3e. It looked good. Still, what I remember the most was an editorial on coming classes. It basically stated that they had wanted to drop the Bard as usless, but players demanded one. Same with Sorcs. The whole spontaneous spellcasting made them too powerful bit. So, I was cautious. We got and enjoyed 3e, but for me the apparent attitude that the players, the CUSTOMERS, had forced them to add classes they didn't want, that they were just tossing a bone to those few pushy folks, left a sour taste.
And that's where I'm at for 4e. I see that attitude as still being there. I HATE being told someone else knows what's best for me. And all the 4e posts and releases about how 'cool' this new system is, can't you see it, tuns me off. My husband lost interest in 4e way before I did. I saw a post on the 4e boards about paizo's alpha and came here.
I'm not saying 4e is bad. I do like a lot of the stuff they've released. But neat/cool bits and pieces do not a game system make. for us, we're staying with 3.x/paizo. We may mine stuff from 4e, but we'll keep the system we enjoy.
Sorry for the double post, I was trying to edit for spelling.
I want D&D not MMO...They don't seem to understand that... and they don't seem to care what they're old, supporting crowd, wants and needs out of they're product.
And in this, you would be correct. They don't care. By trying to make D&D more like a MMO, they are hoping to attract a younger and larger audience. They are hoping to create a new market... at the expense of their current one.
My fear is that WotC is going to find itself with no market and as a result Ha$bro will terminate D&D altogether.
So, while I will buy the 4e books to support the "hobby" and check it out for curiosity's sake, I won't be playing 4e for quite some time,
You're exactly the type of person they aim their marketing machine towards. Far be it for me to tell you how to spend your money and time, but you do realize that you will probably be able to find out all you need to know about 4e from forums and FLGSs before you buy a bunch of books you're not going to use? Heh.
I started out being very excited about 4e. I liked many of the ideas that were initially presented as they mirrored some of the aspects of my own homebrew; points of light, the flavor changes to the planes, races, and less focus on alignment. I never really enjoyed any of the settings or modules published by WOTC, so the change seemed fresh. And since, I never played in the realms or Greyhawk, I didn't care about changes to those settings.
Then (like Kruelaid posted) I became more interested in people's reactions. While reading posts on ENworld, I came across a thread about art in the new edition, and someone posted art (it may have been Eric Mona) of Seoni and Merisel. Which led me to here.
Now, while I may buy the 4e books sometime in the future, I don't think I'll be converting any time soon. I have tons of 3.x material in books that I already have. There are still 3.x books that I want to buy and use. This is also the first time in many years of DMing that I'm running published adventures and enjoying it.
My first reaction was basically:
"It was bound to happen"
Basically, that's what I still think.
Basically.
When I read some of the changes my reaction was more akin to "WTF is this? This ain't D&D in any way, shape or form."
Then I read the nonsense about what's gonna happen to Forgotten Realms.
After my initial shock, which lasted a couple of weeks, came the initial outrage (I ranted several times at Candlekeep under my ID there, Mace Hammerhand). Now the outrage, shock and disappointment are gone, and the only thing that's left is me saying "I don't give a damn. I got my 3.x stuff, almost everything Realms, AND Pathfinder, what the bloody hell do I need WotC for?"
I was shocked at first.
I didn't frequent any boards, or designer blogs until about a year ago, and then it was primarily Paizo's boards here and Troll Lord Games boards, and then only as a lurker. I did read news articles though, and when I saw that WotC was taking back licenses and what most of their products were at the time I noted to a friend 4th was coming.
I predicted it a year off though. I thought the announcement would come this year, not last year. Oh how wrong I was.
I had trepidation initially. For about the first two or three days.
Then I read the announcement it 4th wasn't going to have any backwards compatibility with the some 100+ books sitting on my shelf. At that point I was enraged.
I would have probably thrown my lot in with 4th edition if it had been easily backwards compatible. The more I heard about the rules, the less interested I became.
Several months ago I came to the conclusion that 4th edition is a completely different rules system. This isn't an affirmation that it's not D&D, though many traditions, and consistencies between editions have been ignored. This is look at what has been leaked and comparing it with the design philosophies of past editions. The mechanics are further removed from the original mechanics than even 3rd edition was. The idea of how the game is played is completely different. This isn't supposed to be an insult to 4th, or fans of 4th. But there is a different attitude with this edition. I'm not going to deny that it won't be a fun game, it will be i'm sure. But it's not one I intend to play any time soon. Or run at any rate.
I will say, Paizo's announcement left me in tears of joy, literally. The night before their announcement I'd just been dumped. When I saw that things had come to a head here at Paizo, I had steadied myself for what I though was going to be the obvious announcement: they were going to switch. When I got home from work that night and saw what they had announced and what they intended I weeped tears of joy. 12 hours before I was certain my week was only going to get worse. Instead it got better, and throwing myself (I read a lot, but don't post much) into the community whole heartedly got me through a couple of really crappy weeks.
Paizo had a convert in me before. Now I'm full on preaching their virtues.
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12 hours before I was certain my week was only going to get worse. Instead it got better, and throwing myself (I read a lot, but don't post much) into the community whole heartedly got me through a couple of really crappy weeks.
Paizo had a convert in me before. Now I'm full on preaching their virtues.
Hmmm. A Paizodin? Can we claim that as our PrC? Yes, I hereby declare myself a Paizodin.
Also Weylin, I don't think Eberron will be destroyed. Remember that fans protested when they discussed moving the timeline forward by only 2 years and then recanted and aren't touching the timeline. So really Eberron will be updating races and classes to 4E stats, combining info from some other books into the new core book and planning how to release the other material plus new stuff.
My problem with what is being done in Eberron is that last stated from Keith Baker was the "always been so" approach, especially with races. I deeply dislike that approach to introducing radical changes into a setting in game mechanics, races and classes. Dragonborn? Always been there. Eladrin? No they were never celestials, they've always been related to elves. That sort of thing annoys me to no end.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
How precisely was 3.5 not a money grab? What was so super broken about 3.0 compared to 3.5? Considering I played in 3.5 games w/my 3E PHB and never really had any problems, I've never really seen huge changes.
I agree, I also didn't see too many changes between 3.0 and 3.5. I still run a mostly 3.0 game with just a few things taken from 3.5, so when 4e comes out, my group will still be using 3.0/3.5
I still think my 3rd level Dwarven Swordmaster (title) with no skills and no feats kicks butt.
For me, 4E was, quite simply, not needed. 3.5 wasn't perfect, but I have my doubts that any system will ever be perfectly the way I want it without a least a couple house rules. When 4th edition was announced, I didn't know what to think. As info trickled out, I told my players that I wouldn't eliminate the possibility of 4E in the future but it would come after we had finished the campaigns that we were currently involved in. With that in mind, 4E would of been out for a couple years before we needed to even think about it. I kept an eye on the tidbits and thought that some of the changes were kind of neat. More came out and I saw some mechanics of 3.0/3.5 that I liked were discarded and it started to lose a bit more of its shine. Next thing I know, core classes are delayed until later books which felt like nothing more than marketing, and campaign details were being thrown right out the window. Eventually, I came across the Paizo Pathfinder announcement and my initial reaction was cool. I liked the approach pathfinder was making. But, the real irritating aspect of 4E is the info about the GSL that is making its rounds. I loved the open third party support of the OGL and many of the 4E announcements just give me a bad taste in my mouth. My only hope now is that other 3rd party companies take a similar approach to Paizo and are able to succeed. I hope that there are enough people with feelings similar to my own to not only support a company like Paizo, but to actually create growth in the 3.5 field.
So, while I will buy the 4e books to support the "hobby" and check it out for curiosity's sake, I won't be playing 4e for quite some time,You're exactly the type of person they aim their marketing machine towards. Far be it for me to tell you how to spend your money and time, but you do realize that you will probably be able to find out all you need to know about 4e from forums and FLGSs before you buy a bunch of books you're not going to use? Heh.
I know, but I like books and I like reading gaming books. I also bought Green Ronin's Thieves World 3.5 books and the Game of Thrones 3.5 book by Swords & Sorcery studios purely for the fact that I enjoyed the novels and short stories set in those worlds and wanted to have the RPG reference material to go along with them, even though it is highly unlikely I'll ever run a campaign in Thieves World or Game of Thrones.
I hope both Wizards and Paizo continue to succeed. About half to 60% of the game supplements, books, modules and games I own I have never played and probably never will. Like you said, I'm a marketing machine's big ass target.
As Clarification I will go down the list of how I came to my decision and see if other players had something similar.
1) NEW Edition!-Ok...hmm. I don't know if I need one, but it could be good. Hopefully I will like it because I typically get excited over new material, so this may be good. If it get's me excited I will switch.
2) Dragon and Dungeon toast- What? Nooo. What the hell, why? DDI? Ok mabye it will be good...if I play 4th Ed and it's better than maptools in usage and playability maybe it will be good for the game...and maybe they will really keep up with the same kind of content.
3) Gnomes bards and others out of the PHB- ... Ok, that means I just have to buy another book that I would have probably bought anyway. I don't like that they probably won't get the same kind of focus they got in 3.5 but perhaps I can live with this.
4) Notes on spells and casting- No vanician...ok my favorite player is a wizard but I can still handle that if it's done well. I will wait.
5)Skills will be different--Not fundamentally against this if it works well. I will have to play before making assumptions on it because I felt that skills weren't quite useful enough in 3.5.
6)Pit fiend preview-- Ugh...no. No. Part of the way I do my campaigns is taking something and tweaking it, then using alot of it's ability and backround to design something unique. This creature is harder to make unique now unless I add levels. I don't like this thing. I will still wait.
7) No increased content on the website for Dragon and Dungeon--This looks like the same old garbage. I'm worried, but perhaps they are just too busy.
**NOTE***(also around this time, the WotC boards truthfully were wearing out the fun that I typically have posting on the internet. It was no longer fun to be there. The collective sense of humor was gone and any attempt to instill it was met with angst and hostility. There was an obvious splintering effect going on.)
8) More notes on spellcasting- Many iconic spells will be fundamentally altered, nerfed, bumped up, removed, and whatnot. I didn't like this. It's fixing by tearing down.
9) New fluff changes start to emerge--Well they are going a different direction but that's not bad in itself. I'm bummed but curious at the same time.
10) The Rogue preview-Ok nice! I like some of the new ideas and I think I can get behind this kind of thing. Some new mechanics and new ideas. Not perfect in my mind but quality. Maybe my fears have been unfounded.
11) D&DXP Bombshell on my hope and post info- The ability to retool a built character like you can in WoW upon leveling...FAIL. A 45% save mechanic for 90% of effects...wow. The rogue that looks nice has the same universal scaling and template as everything else...that's not streamlining to me, that's simplification. I don't want that. The versatility of the wizard is now the versatility of every class seemingly...they all have the exact same scaling and exact same mechanic behind their powers even if the effect is different. The scaling gives equal options and equal effects. I understand how much easier this must have made game balance but I find the homogenization as boring as boring can be. I can do this now with True20 and keep my flavor and setting and everything else. All this together changes both the way I play and the way I set up play and build a storyline/campaign in a way I don't fundamentally like.
Furthermore the fact that the game is supposed to be faster and less cumbersome to run didn't pan out at all from the info gotten back, which was a major selling point.
12) No OGL, serious questions about the GSL--This is just another cloud for me, being a big fan of some thrid party publishers.
Now, keeping my ear on the Paizo page, I've been more and more intrigued seeing is I like their products. The alpha is then announced. I like many of the changes...I don't think they are perfect but I like the concepts initially better than what I hear in 4th. I continue and it seems things are heading in the right direction...given the fact that their other products have outshined in many ways, I think I will stick with this one.
That was somewhat of the progression at least, given that a few may be out of order or aren't expounded upon.
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Announcment : Dude, too soon.
First info : Hey this could be pretty cool.
Classes and Races book : Wait, what? What did they do to the tieflings? The ELADRIN?! What the...
Upon hearing that Sigil and the Lady of Pain would still be around : Okay well there's that. So long as they don't stat her. But how is Planescape going to work with those race cha
Upon hearing about the Great Wheel : lajdgafjpwoef
It could be a neat ruleset to monkey around with but there is no way I'm excited about any of the fluff changes I've seen.
I want D&D not MMO...They don't seem to understand that... and they don't seem to care what they're old, supporting crowd, wants and needs out of they're product.And in this, you would be correct. They don't care. By trying to make D&D more like a MMO, they are hoping to attract a younger and larger audience. They are hoping to create a new market... at the expense of their current one.
My fear is that WotC is going to find itself with no market and as a result Ha$bro will terminate D&D altogether.
This is very likely the case - a costly last ditch effort to save the franchise from costly printing overruns for 3.5 stuff by attracting the younger MMO crowd. Reminds me of that quote from Jurassic Park as things went to hell: "...Spared no expense." (but spared common sense).
My first reaction to the announcement of 4e was to look at my bookshelf and realize that I had not even completed collecting the 3.5 stuff. I wasn't ready for 4e, as I was really starting to dig 3.5 as it matured.
When I saw the video disrespecting previous versions, I could not get the snarl off my face for days. I have enjoyed many years of adventuring under those old and busted systems. Sure, I liked the prospect of some new hotness, but when I learned 4e would not be compatible with 3.5, I grew very apprehensive.
Insert here most of the chagrin expressed by others.
Then there's this: Saving Throws. Some people like the idea of everything being an attack against a defense score, but there is one particular aspect of the saving throw that, to me, is a deal breaker. By way of example, say you as DM have a party that's battled a nasty dragon down to its last few hp, while the party is mostly unconscious with one remaining spell to cast at the dragon. If the spell succeeds, the six month campaign ends on a note of triumph. The players sit on the edge of their seats as you roll the dragon's save and/or magic resistance behind the DM's screen. You roll a 20 - the dragon saves and should use its last breath attack to finish off the party. Instead you frown in disappointment and describe the effects of the spell as it destroys the beast. Everyone cheers. The injured are healed and the party marches proudly back to town with the dragon's head (and horde) in tow.
Imagine the same scenario when it's up to the player to roll against the dragon's defense score. The player rolls a 1 in front of everyone and knows such will not succeed. The dragon breaths and six months go down the drain, all because while the DM can secretly fudge a saving throw when needed, it's a bit more difficult to sell a failed open attack roll.
This, precisely, is how the system can interfere with good heroic role-playing. The concept of hidden DM saving throws is invaluable and removing such from the system can dramatically influence or even disrupt carefully crafted campaigns.
Remember that the DM is a storyteller first. If the system takes from the DM something that has such significant impact on the story that it can kill the plot at the last moment, then the system is fundamentally misguided.
I will be canceling my pre-order of the 4e core books today and will resume work on my OGL home-brew based on 3.5... and will probably pick up a bunch of 3.5 books on sale, as well as Pathfinder. Even if I never use the Pathfinder rules, I will support their mission with my cash :)
Cheers to Paizo for their courage and sensibility and dedication to the people WotC seems ready and willing to abandon.
Before the first announcement, but when the countdown page made it clear they were going to announce it, I was, "Too soon. If they hadn't done 3.5, it'd be okay, but only five years after 3.5? Too soon." Still, I was optimistic.
Then, of course, there was the announcement, and the declaration of non-Vancian wizard powers. My reaction was, "Hmm, that could be nice, as long as they keep it limited."
Then, of course, we slowly found out that they aren't actually doing a new edition of D&D. Instead, they were doing a new game with a lot of similar elements — like, oh Runequest or Earthdawn. You know, completely different magic system, elimination of saving throws, different race mix, different class mix, different metaphysics, different monsters (succubus as a devil), etc.
At that point, I became very, very ticked at Wizards of the Coast. If I wanted a fantasy game that slaughtered all of D&D's sacred cows, I only had six already sitting on my bookshelf, and uncounted others that I never bothered to buy. The only saving grace for 4e was that Necromancer Games was promising a version of the Tome of Horrors and an Advanced Player's Guide that would save D&D from Wizards of the Coast. Even at that, I was hoping that somebody would announce they'd publish their own OGL successor to D&D.
Then we had all the GSL brouhaha, and Necromancer Games had to qualify its promises by saying that it'll deliver if Wizards of the Coast will let it . . . and Paizo announced the Pathfinder RPG.
I might bother buying 4e if Necromancer is able to deliver a Tome of Horros and an Advanced Player's Guide that make it possible to actually play D&D with the game.
It's funny, but I was totally an inactive gamer when the news of cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon came out. I was in a phase of life where there just wasn't a lot of time, but I still ponied up for the monthly hardcover from WotC and I kept my subscription to the two magazines current because I enjoyed the storylines and keeping somewhat up-to-date with the rules changes.
The cancellation notice caught me flat-footed. No more magazines? I had been reading said magazines since 1980. That put a sour taste in my mouth. Then I heard about the 4e rules changeover. I looked over at the pile of lightly-read rule books and sighed to myself, well another rules variation, nothing we haven't seen before.
Then as more and more information started leaking out, I became more and more concerned. I had been using MMORPGS for several years to feed my RPG need, but it was like eating Twinkies instead of dinner. I had eventually quit in disgust, simce those games for me had devolved into basically a repetitive videogame with the added nuisance of having to deal with people with abrasive personalities just to get to the content you wanted to see. I know the average MMORPG gamer is not going to be wooed to a new version of tabletop, it's like asking a videogame addict to quit playing KillAll III and go read Pride and Prejudice, now that they had taken the storyline and added some At-AT walkers to the English countryside and given Mr. Darby kewl horns.
Still, I knew that mechanics are basically a means, not an end, so I endeavored to keep an open mind. Then came the fluff changes.
Every iteration of D&D has been consistent with the storylines presented. When all the fluff accumulated over the years, not just campaigns, but the monsters and the cosmology get a complete makeover, I scream shennanigans. For me this was the true deal breaker. I want to be able to retcon my cosmology. I want continuity over editions in storyline. Once you break the continuity flow you might as well be playing an entirely different game. WotC would have been much more likely to keep my custom if they had left the fluff alone and just updated the mechanics.
All that being said, I am happy in one respect. All this hullabaloo has brought me to Paizo, and I am gaming again, if not at a table then at least at my computer. Dragon and Dungeon may be dead, but I have Pathfinder and Kobold Quarterly. I am enjoying my 3.5 rule books all over again, and I am happy that there will be a game system that doesn't invalidate my 3-4K investment. If this puts me in the Grognard camp, then so mote it be. I'm not in the target group they want now anyway.
Greetings,
My first reaction to the 4E announcement was total excitement. There were a lot of things that needed updating in v3.5, IMHO. I thought about SW Saga and thought, "well, something along that lines would be really nice". I actually like the Saga ruleset.
Then I heard "no Bard, no Druid" and it was like "WTF?!" - these are the staple classes of each and every 3E D&D group I've played with so far. There is always a bard or a druid - or both. I knew by then I couldn't get my players to switch to 4E, no matter how cool it turns out to be. So, OK, they are supposed to be released with a later addition to the new PHB, but still...
It's a clever move, though: Almost anyone would possibly buy this book to get a complete D&D again. This felt wrong, somehow - of course, they want and need to make money with this game, but this seemed to be a little *too* obvious for my taste.
And the new classes? They put in the Warlock and Warlord - I can already tell what kind of phonetic confusion that will create among newbies. And to be honest, the Warlord is AFAIK just an inflated version of the Marshal (way cooler sounding name, btw). This is what we get for losing Bards and Druids? Huh.
And don't get me started about the FR update - Helm is dead? :( That was like a punch in the face.
Yet still I held the 4E banner up and hoped for the best. But with the previews and the fate of the Tiefling and Eladrin, it dawned to me, that this game won't be a new edition, it is a whole new game. It may use some labels from D&D, but it is actually something completely different.
That's not necessarily bad, but not the D&D my players and I have enjoyed over so many years. The WoW-style* Fluff killed my excitement with 4E, even more than the glimpses of the new rules did later on. I agree that 3.5 needs serious repairs, but that's what houserules are for - 4E is like razing a really nice but neglected building, where a new paintjob and some plumbing would have sufficed, and building a mall in its place.
(*btw, I do like the WoW d20 RPG)
I'm totally for simpler rules and easy character generation, but, for me at least, they overdid it. I already get nervous twitches when someone ingame says "attack of opportunity!" or "5-foot step" so I sure as hell don't want to hear every range described in squares.
"Have you seen this shady fellow, 8 squares over there?"
"Yes, I was able to get a good look when he passed by within a square, a moment ago."
Say what you want, but this'll happen. Sooner or later gamers will get too lazy to calculate any real distance into squares and back.
So, my players and I are sticking with 3.5 and, recently, Pathfinder. The 4E may be a cool game in its own right, but I think it is not really going to be "D&D". Maybe there will be a more mature, later version of this new D&D that will catch my fancy but by now I seriously doubt that it will replace the game we'll get with Pathfinder.
I was not opposed to a new edition in principle and was even somewhat excited, even though I suspected it would not be exactly to my taste, but the more I learned about 4E, the more I began to dislike the direction it was taking both in terms of rules and in terms of flavor.
Yep, I'm pretty much in the Roman camp. For me it was kind of a shrug when I heard (since its been talked about so long it was obvious it was just a matter of time) but was cautiously optimistic, assuming that as with past editions it would be a definite improvement and win me over.
However when I started to hear about all the changes I became a bit more concerned, though I still figured I'd pick it up and give it a whirl, and even after the Pathfinder announcement I still figured I'd buy both games, though it'd be more likely that I stayed with 3.5/PF as I felt the PF adventure paths were the best fit for being able to run a great campaign for my group.
I am actually at the point now where I am starting to question picking up 4e at all, though odds are I still will, if for no other reason than to see what all the fuss is about. But the more I hear, and the more previews I see, the less I am interested.
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We'd only been playing 3.5 for a few months when we learned that Dungeon and Dragon were to be cancelled, which upon reflection, set me against WOTC & Hasbro before 4e was even announced. So I suppose I've never really considered buying or playing anything from Hasbro after they killed off two magazines that I enjoyed for decades. While clearly not a reasonable position (maybe 4e will be the ultimate rpg and I'm going to miss out on it), but I'll not spend a penny with either Hasbro or WOTC now.
As an aside, we aren't playing 3.5 anymore (don't like the multi-classing system), but I purchase all the Pathfinder material anyway.
voila, moneygrab.
I agree, but this I didnt mind much because it made a few things better (examples... bards, rangers, Haste, etc). It also took all the extra errata and reformed them into new books which I was thankful for.
I hated having all that extra stuff printed and stuffed into my books becuase something wasnt playtested enough or improvements were made.The fact is 3E to 3.5E didnt change the entire game but made some improvements. I think alot of folks would agree. Everything was still usable and the D&D flavor remained the same.
4E is a different animal.
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I was sooo disappointed about the Dragon/Dungeon mags going "online only". But then Pathfinder was announced and I was excited. I love RotRL! Archmages do make the awesome BBEGs.
Then they announce 4e, about 2 years too early in my opinion.
My group had switched from the RCR Star Wars to Saga Star Wars with a lot of anticipation earlier last year. We ate up every morsel of info before the release, bought the oddly shaped book as soon as it was out. Well. Then we played that system, and while so far we are sticking with it in theory (haven't played it in months), I for one really don't care for the changes.
I miss VP/WP. I miss the skill-heavy Force powers. I miss having my library of feats, ships, weapons available for use as-is. I miss adding some skill points to random skills, instead of having a narrow selection available. My ARC used to have a smattering of skills, now he's solid at only a handful.
So 4e to me sounded like Saga was coming to D&D. So my gut reaction was a big fat DO NOT WANT!!!
Then I read about it, and it sounds pretty meh overall to me. Meanwhile Paizo is rocking out with new product, great customer service, etc. The flavor changes in 4e REALLY annoyed me, again at a gut level, and with Pathfinder's flavor remaining unchanged AND sticking with 3.x, my decision was made.
I will probably buy the 4e DMG, to complete my Basic>1e>2e>3.0>3.5 DMG collection. But I have been sending Paizo my gaming dollars month over month for a while now, and plan on keeping that up. The Pathfinder RPG has me giddy in the way I haven't been in a long, long time.
You, my friend, share my feelings almost exactly. (Rather eerie, that)
4E smacks waaaay too much of Saga Star Wars, which was a huge let-down when I attempted to play it. Hence me being less-than-enthusiastic about DnD getting the same treatment Star Wars did.
Put Paizo? I am continually impressed by Paizo and the work it's doing with Pathfinder, and I find myself saying I am a Pathfinder fan (I even got upset when the latest charge to my card didn't go right--I contacted Paizo and begged for a way that I could get my latest Curse of the Crimson Throne book--I am THAT loyal to the company now).
WOTC...these days, I look at my shelf groaning with 3.5 books, and sadly shake my head. They had something great there, something I loved. And they're making a hash of it now.
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If you had talked to me 1 year ago, I would have said that I am a WotC fan and use just the official books and I post on their site, and so forth. I would never had believed that I'd dump them, their forums, their products... that is a testament perhaps to my loyalty to the RP experience and not to any one company. Thus I can say in all honesty, with no anger but with satisfaction... Dear WotC, thank you for showing me that you don't matter.
I realized the exact same thing. My gaming universe revolved around Wizards, but when 4th Edition was announced it got me interested in other d20 publishers, and I discovered Iron Heroes, OSRIC, and eventually Pathfinder. I used to visit Wizards website daily, now they are lucky if I go once a week. Freedom is a beautiful thing.
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I want D&D not MMO...They don't seem to understand that... and they don't seem to care what they're old, supporting crowd, wants and needs out of they're product.And in this, you would be correct. They don't care. By trying to make D&D more like a MMO, they are hoping to attract a younger and larger audience. They are hoping to create a new market... at the expense of their current one.
My fear is that WotC is going to find itself with no market and as a result Ha$bro will terminate D&D altogether.
Well, that's survival of the fittest, and the fittest is Paizo.
so that would be good news in fact.
I just canceled my 4e pre-order and bought a couple of new 3.5 books at my local gaming store.
I feel relieved, somehow.
For my pre-order cancellation reason, I entered "After playing the 4th Edition demo and much consideration, I decided I would stick with 3.5."
I guess I really had subconsciously made this decision when 4e was announced, but attempted to look forward to 4e and actively sought reasons to like it. All I found was a bunch of reasons why it would not work for me or my players.
WotC may continue to profit a bit from me as I back-fill my 3.5 collection, but they will not enjoy my patronage for 4e.
Then there's this: Saving Throws. Some people like the idea of everything being an attack against a defense score, but there is one particular aspect of the saving throw that, to me, is a deal breaker. By way of example, say you as DM have a party that's battled a nasty dragon down to its last few hp, while the party is mostly unconscious with one remaining spell to cast at the dragon. If the spell succeeds, the six month campaign ends on a note of triumph. The players sit on the edge of their seats as you roll the dragon's save and/or magic resistance behind the DM's screen. You roll a 20 - the dragon saves and should use its last breath attack to finish off the party. Instead you frown in disappointment and describe the effects of the spell as it destroys the beast. Everyone cheers. The injured are healed and the party marches proudly back to town with the dragon's head (and horde) in tow.
Imagine the same scenario when it's up to the player to roll against the dragon's defense score. The player rolls a 1 in front of everyone and knows such will not succeed. The dragon breaths and six months go down the drain, all because while the DM can secretly fudge a saving throw when needed, it's a bit more difficult to sell a failed open attack roll.
This, precisely, is how the system can interfere with good heroic role-playing. The concept of hidden DM saving throws is invaluable and removing such from the system can dramatically influence or even disrupt carefully crafted campaigns.
*blinks*
By the hells! I'd never even thought about that. One of the best things about being a DM, being able to maintain a story, totally sunk by a mechanics change. What a trainwreck...
Thanks, Michael. You just highlighted the dealbreaker. This alone would be enough to convince me 4e wasn't for me, even if all the other drudge hadn't swayed me by now.
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At first I was really excited about 4th Editon D&D. I have played D&D since it was little B&W books in big boxes (1st Edition). every edition has had its pluses and minuses, but a feel of advancement was definitely there. WoTC has made a habit of using other "sister" systems (D20 Modern, Star Wars RPG, etc.) to showcase/playtest ideas for this system. With that mind-set, I was looking forward to 4th Edition following the release of Star Wars Saga, despite its generic skill system.
Everything I have seen since has been a disappointment. The destruction of my favorite campaign setting (FR), the almost alien mechanics, even the abandoning of potentail products (such as additional "Complete" books or "Envrionment" books), all have made me rethink RPG as my favorite hobby.
Thank you Paizo for listening to us who thought 3.X still had life in it, and thanks for fixing some of the problems that seem to have plagued the game for year (the Turn Undead mechanic, Grappling, polymorph, etc). I look forward to the next release!
How can I put it...
At first I was cautiously "optimistic", and was willing to give 4th Ed a look through.
<Snipped out a potential rant>
So, now I'm quite firmly in the 3.5/PF camp.
Keep up the excellent work Paizo. :o)
Man, I miss looking forward to new Environment books already. Never did get a "Jungle" one...
Aye... there was still alot that could have been covered. Including different "Compendium" books people were asking for.
Too bad WoT... sorry better shut up now... feel another rant coming on...