Speculation likely.
Given that WotC *should* have been working on the GSL since at least last August, the failure to present it could be an indication of orders from higher-up putting a kibosh on it. Or possibly WotC is encountering far more legal problems with what they want the GSL to allow and prohibit than they expected, and are having a hard time nailing down the specifics.
Regardless, something seems to be holding up the release of the GSL, and I think whatever the reason, that is going to do more harm for 3rd party publishers adopting 4E than any restrictions of the license itself.
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I don't think there's going to be one, I think Hasbro stomped on the GSL.Linky?
There's no linky, that's speculation.
The original plan was get the GSL and get product out by GenCon for $5000. I can't think of anyone that can put out a quality product by GenCon now... not to mention the 3 Core books are done and have gone to the printers. So it's not like there's a good excuse for no GSL.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't think there's going to be one, I think Hasbro stomped on the GSL.Linky?There's no linky, that's speculation.
The original plan was get the GSL and get product out by GenCon for $5000. I can't think of anyone that can put out a quality product by GenCon now... not to mention the 3 Core books are done and have gone to the printers. So it's not like there's a good excuse for no GSL.
Faning the flames of speculation.
My theory is the GSL was ready to go, and it is/was very restrictive. The backlash they relaized it would generate was bad for business and they're revising it now to make it more palitable.
This too is idle speculation.
Clark/Orcus is confident that there will be some kind of public license. His argument is that all the back and forth from Wizards is about what shape the license will take, not whether there should be a license. But it admits he is an optimist. (that's the cumulation of like various posts over like 3 threads on ENWorld so I am not going to post a link)
While I do understand that the larger the company, the larger the delays are, I just think that Wizard's actions are the sum total of a large orginization with no clear vision on how to proceed in this fashion. Their indecisiveness on this has cost them and will continue to cost them.
To the OP, I don't believe we'll see Necro support Pathfinder PRG. Even if they can't get a public license out, I understand they are rather easy to work with in terms of exclusive licenses. Granted that was before 4E, and Mona (in a recent podcast) did describe them as going from a very open relationship where they'll be told anyting to a relationship where certain things were being kept from Paizo. But I still expect that WotC and Necro to be able to hammer out some kind of agreement for them to support 4E.
The backlash they relaized it would generate was bad for business and they're revising it now to make it more palitable.
At this point, I'm guessing this thread will be moved to the 4E forums.
I don't believe there will be a backlash anymore. Those that either invested alot of money in 3.5 and don't want to see it go up in smoke, or those that like the 3.5 rules set, or similar are going Pathfinder/sticking with 3.5. Those that are excited about 4E and are not loyal to other companies are going 4E. Psionic fans (Dreamscarred press fans) are probably going to stick with 3.5 for a while, since it is going to be a while before wizards gets psionics rules out for 4E.
In short, I feel that the majority of those still excited about 4E are those not really interested in 3rd party companies.
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I just think that Wizard's actions are the sum total of a large orginization with no clear vision on how to proceed in this fashion. Their indecisiveness on this has cost them and will continue to cost them.
I think Doc really has hit the crux of several matters dead on the nail. There are plenty of people out there waiving pitchforks and torches and yelling "slay the monster over several items" ...
- GSL- Quality and quantity of content for Dragon and Dungeon magazines
- Timeliness
I've seen the WotC folk comment about how they had all the devs focusing entirely on the 4E product that it *has* impacted other areas of their business, and I really see them doing stupid things, specifically in regards to the handling of their online content, and still not "getting it" when people are commenting on the materials. To see them "waffling" around with the GSL makes perfect sense to me.
Nothing to do now but watch what unfolds. Lurking in the woodpile while chanting "conspiracy" isn't going to win any friends, and the goblins might begin to resent the intrusion ...
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In short, I feel that the majority of those still excited about 4E are those not really interested in 3rd party companies.
Next to nobody cares about third party support for 4th edition.
Most D&D customers aren't interested in third parties, and those that are most probably are in the "don't intend to switch to 4th edition anyway" category.
I tend to flit from category to category as the mood strikes me, but I'm never going to be in the "I don't care if WotC lies to me (about the GSL or anything else)" category.
No GSL, no purchases of any WotC products from me.
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Hasbro is having WotC puts its eggs in the D&DI basket.
To "properly" use all of the D&DI tools, any rules items must be programmed into the system.
Unlike Heroforge or other character generators, the WotC D&DI is almost certainly not going to be accessible to third party packs. No outside monsters, items, powers, classes, or anything will be able to get themselves added to the database.
It is most likely this is the hold up on the GSL; making sure it is phrased properly so that everyone understands this, and limits themselves only to making adventures with the approved material that can be set up for play. It will let people make supporting adventures, and absolutely nothing more.
Hasbro is having WotC puts its eggs in the D&DI basket.
To "properly" use all of the D&DI tools, any rules items must be programmed into the system.
Unlike Heroforge or other character generators, the WotC D&DI is almost certainly not going to be accessible to third party packs. No outside monsters, items, powers, classes, or anything will be able to get themselves added to the database.
It is most likely this is the hold up on the GSL; making sure it is phrased properly so that everyone understands this, and limits themselves only to making adventures with the approved material that can be set up for play. It will let people make supporting adventures, and absolutely nothing more.
That's what I was contemplating a few months ago in my blog. If they allow third parties to do anything beyond just writing adventures for D&D 4e, what's to stops someone from really trumping them and converting some of the classic monsters that they have "held back" for future Monster Manuals? For example, what if someone (gasp) makes a frost giant that is based the the old Norse style giants, rather than making them a big chunky ice elemental thingy? And people like this better?
Again, I don't know anything more than anyone else does, but my gut feeling is that the GSL is going to be a lot more restrictive than the OGL. Its not just going to prevent alternate player's handbooks or RPG systems, its going to very explicitly spell out that you can do X and only X with this material, and that is all.
IMHO, if the 3 Core books are released with no licensing information included, there won't be any, at least as far as anything being remotely "open".
I think WotC, under Hasbro, are going for exclusivity.
I think that with the OGL SRD available in perpetuity that they aren't going to be as exclusive as they want.
I think Paizo is going to blow them away (I was going to type "kick their ass, but I didn't want to start a flame...no wait, I did).
My 2 cents...for free.
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I think Paizo is going to blow them away
I think Paizo is positioned very well to pose some serious competition to 4E. But looking at product line-up from both companies, I think they cater to different and specific audiences.
WotC already have a range of character options splat books announced, and relies on these being their big sellers, appealing to players who like to optimise their characters.
Paizo's current focus seems to be on their Pathfinder Adventure Paths. Paizo wins hand-down providing excellent story-based adventure content, but will be light on character options, having only Pathfinder RPG, and whatever new feats, prestige classes, etc appear in their Pathfinder products, which to date, have focused more on story, background and flavour, than character perks.
I feel each approach will appeal to different players.
Personally, I have a load of WotC 3.5 books, but never really used them much, without good adventures to run them with. Pathfinder has given me a reason to play D&D again. It's such a pity that WotC abandoned 3.5 just when I found a reason to keep me here.
I think 4E will be successful, but I also think Pathfinder is a rising star. Definitely, Pathfinder speaks for a large section of the community, and has a great future to look forward to.
Not trying to fan flames but at this point I dont know that it matters much. Necro has had "upcoming" stuff mysteriously vanish on mystic boats in the asian seas, products were never released even if 3E stats were done, and even before the 4E announcement not much product was coming out of there. The demon lords also said over and over that their main jobs still take priority over the rpg work(understandable). Even the website hasnt been updated much at all in who knows how long. Webmasters cant be that hard to find.
After the 4E announcement things slowed to a halt while companies like Paizo and Goodman continued.
I think them being "geeked out" with 4E will be a temporary thing. Like the beginning of 3E when Necro was pumping out all that goodness, then things slowed down, demon lords were busy with RL stuff, etc.
If you are going to run a company as a 2nd job when you have time, this is likely what can be expected again. Again, im not saying its wrong as the Demon Lords know where the bread and butter is.
I really miss the Necromancer of old (everything until the JG stuff). So much awesomeness.
I am a Necro fan so please dont take my post the wrong way.
Personally, I have a load of WotC 3.5 books, but never really used them much,
Yeah - my wife and I had this conversation a few days ago. Apart from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, we don't get regular use out of any of their books. Compared to our 3rd party stuff, which we use every game. Options for what type of gamebooks you buy is very limited if WotC is the only producer - it's almost all crunch - and their adventures are second-rate compared to Paizo's stuff.
No 3rd party support will hurt Wotc - perhaps not in a huge way - but at the very least it's cost them our gaming group's cash. Although I personally stopped giving them my money after they canceled Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I grew up reading them you *bleeeeep*!
I really hope Necromancer's support goes to 3.5 though - their stuff is pretty good and the City of Brass boxed set rocked! I wish they'd do similar treatments to other planar metropolises.
Peace,
tfad
So they consider Pathfinder (and those who prefer Pathfinder) when all else fails? I guess I'll consider buying Necromancer products when I run out of anything else to buy, then. Nothing personal. It's just that everyone who likes 4e more than 3e can't be making RPG stuff I'd like :P
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Paizo's current focus seems to be on their Pathfinder Adventure Paths. Paizo wins hand-down providing excellent story-based adventure content, but will be light on character options, having only Pathfinder RPG, and whatever new feats, prestige classes, etc appear in their Pathfinder products, which to date, have focused more on story, background and flavour, than character perks.
The Companion line is geared toward players and as we get closer to August 2009 they'd be foolish NOT to design character options into that that aren't geared toward 3P but also work well for 3.5.
I think somewhat the opposite.
I don't think this is the lack of a strategy, but one to attempt to allow WotC's products to shine first, and also get people signed up for DDI since it will be the main source for new material.
Once they get people signed up and have starved out a few of the weaker 3rd party publishers, they will come out with a more restrictive GSL.
My guess is also this may not just be WotC's decision but Hasbro's as well. I'm sure Hasbro is smart enough to let gamemakers make the games they are good at with little interference, but that doesn't mean they don't stick their hands in the pot when dealing with matters surrounding legality and marketing.
I use to think this was a giant conspiracy then I realized that giant conspiracies have better PR. Asking "How can we dominate the world?" will get you nowhere. The right questions are, "How can we make the world beg us to dominate them?", "How can we start an industry wide panic and come out smelling like a rose?" and "How can we create a perfect storm to leave all opposition working for us?"
If this was a giant conspiracy, Wizards answered all 3 of those questions wrong. If this was a giant conspiracy, this would be a text book case of what NOT to do.
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That's what I was contemplating a few months ago in my blog. If they allow third parties to do anything beyond just writing adventures for D&D 4e, what's to stops someone from really trumping them and converting some of the classic monsters that they have "held back" for future Monster Manuals? For example, what if someone (gasp) makes a frost giant that is based the the old Norse style giants, rather than making them a big chunky ice elemental thingy? And people like this better?
Again, I don't know anything more than anyone else does, but my gut feeling is that the GSL is going to be a lot more restrictive than the OGL. Its not just going to prevent alternate player's handbooks or RPG systems, its going to very explicitly spell out that you can do X and only X with this material, and that is all.
I think there are presentations issues with it as well.
If a company produces such a product but players cannot readily input it into the D&DI virtual tabletop, let alone find it there, they may decide that diminishes the value of the D&DI. Even if you can insert house rules with the program telling you that you are "cheating", it will still most likely hit a limit, or the players and DMs will hit personal limits of having to input variants every time they log in.So indeed, I agree. WotC said the GSL was going to be more limited and not allow variant rule books that do not require the core books (and a large size variant monster manual will in fact do just that, making the core Monster Manual unnecessary, even as a variant player book with just one or two classes can effectively make the Player's Handbook unnecessary), and I see no reason to expect they are not sticking to that.
So they consider Pathfinder (and those who prefer Pathfinder) when all else fails? I guess I'll consider buying Necromancer products when I run out of anything else to buy, then. Nothing personal. It's just that everyone who likes 4e more than 3e can't be making RPG stuff I'd like :P
same, but I wish Mac's Eamonvale Incursion would come here as a pathfinder module if Necro is unwilling to release the 3E version. I could so see that as a Game Mastery/Pathfinder one shot.
I guess I'll consider buying Necromancer products when I run out of anything else to buy, then. Nothing personal. It's just that everyone who likes 4e more than 3e can't be making RPG stuff I'd like :P
I don't know. That Tome of Horrors doesn't get itself listed in the OGL of atleast half a dozen Pathfinder products because its a crappy product. Personally, I prefer it to the WotC MM.
WotC has openly stated that 4E and the “virtual tabletop” on-line thing are intended to make D&D more appealing to MMO players. (Exactly how they expect stationary 2D images with no audio/visual effects to win over WoW players utterly baffles me but...) What is the average age of the typical WoW player? I honestly have no idea but my guess would be between the ages of 15 and 20. Now... Necromancer Game's shtick has always been "1st Ed Feel". I'd really like to know how Clark Peterson and company intend to market "1st Ed Feel" to a target audience that isn't old enough to know what 1st Ed is.
Products with "1st Ed feel" had a niche market to begin with but now, in the world of 4E, that niche is going to be even smaller.
-the “new” market doesn’t know what “1st Ed Feel” is and aren’t going to be interested in D&D anyways.
-a large portion of current market that is going 4E has no interest in 3rd party products.
-a large portion of the current market that is interested in 3rd party products and “1st Ed Feel” aren’t going 4E.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Necromancer going 4E is a bad idea and the smarter business move would be to wait until ’09 and go Pathfinder. For some strange reason though, Clark doesn’t see things that way.
WotC has openly stated that 4E and the “virtual tabletop” on-line thing are intended to make D&D more appealing to MMO players.
I think a lot of their decisions were made so D&D is more appealing to MMORPG players.
Of course, this strategy has a huge flaw - one that might spell doom for 4e: D&D can't compete with WoW as a WoW-like game. WoW has established servers and all that, they have decent eye-and-ear-candy, they let the PC take care of all those rules (like determining your stats, as well as success and failure and the chances of each). If they want 4e to compete with WoW, they'll fail miserably.
And at the same time, they designed the game away from their old customer base's expectations. They don't want a stripped-down version of WoW where you have to move the monsters around by yourself and all that. They want a roleplaying game.
It's a shame that companies like Necromancer and Goodman Games are being left in the dark for so long--wondering if there is going to be a GSL or not. I'm glad Paizo decided to go ahead and give the green light to Pathfinder RPG. At least the other companies know that there is now another option in case the WotC powers-that-be decide to do away with the GSL altogether.
My theory is the GSL was ready to go, and it is/was very restrictive. The backlash they relaized it would generate was bad for business and they're revising it now to make it more palitable.
You're such a kidder. You realize this is Hasbro we're talking about, right? And that Hasbro just dispatched a new hatchet man to, um, man the helm of WotC, right? That's two strikes for them right there. And the fact that it's still not out is strike three, IMOHO.
My personal pessimistic theory is that D&D as we know it is living on borrowed time.
It has been said many times that WotC saved D&D. I personally believe that 4E is their attempt to do so again... but this time, they're trying to save it from Ha$bro.
Ha$bro bought WotC in order to acquire the IP rights to the cash cow that is Magic the Gathering. D&D was just part of the package. Ha$bro couldn't care less about D&D and considers it out-moded and obsolete. 4E is WotC's last ditch, desperate, attempt to prove to Ha$bro that D&D is a viable product and can compete with the likes of WoW and LotRO ...which, of course, it can't. If/When 4E fails to generate the kind of numbers that will make Ha$bro happy, it will be discontinued, D&D will cease to be published, and the IP will be licensed out to a video game designer. D&D as we know it will be dead.
With this in mind, the smartest thing for WotC to do would be to not have the GSL and to not grant exclusive licenses, thereby keeping the D&D market (and thus the money) to themselves.
Again, this is just my personal pessimistic theory.
You're such a kidder. You realize this is Hasbro we're talking about, right? And that Hasbro just dispatched a new hatchet man to, um, man the helm of WotC, right? That's two strikes for them right there. And the fact that it's still not out is strike three, IMOHO.
My theory is the GSL was ready to go, and it is/was very restrictive. The backlash they relaized it would generate was bad for business and they're revising it now to make it more palitable.
Or...I could be wrong. If the GSL really does contain the terms that have been mooted, it sounds like it won't be such a bad thing. Too bad they didn't actually have it out in time to do the third-party publishers any good this year...
Too bad they didn't actually have it out in time to do the third-party publishers any good this year...
No kidding. GenCon is going to be more like WotCon. I'm seriously reconsidering even going. I may just wait until next year and go for the Pathfinder release.
I use to think this was a giant conspiracy then I realized that giant conspiracies have better PR. Asking "How can we dominate the world?" will get you nowhere. The right questions are, "How can we make the world beg us to dominate them?", "How can we start an industry wide panic and come out smelling like a rose?" and "How can we create a perfect storm to leave all opposition working for us?"
If this was a giant conspiracy, Wizards answered all 3 of those questions wrong. If this was a giant conspiracy, this would be a text book case of what NOT to do.
I agree 100%. This smells more of corporate politics and general incompetence than it does of big-time conspiracy.
I use to think this was a giant conspiracy then I realized that giant conspiracies have better PR. Asking "How can we dominate the world?" will get you nowhere. The right questions are, "How can we make the world beg us to dominate them?", "How can we start an industry wide panic and come out smelling like a rose?" and "How can we create a perfect storm to leave all opposition working for us?"
If this was a giant conspiracy, Wizards answered all 3 of those questions wrong. If this was a giant conspiracy, this would be a text book case of what NOT to do.
I agree 100%. This smells more of corporate politics and general incompetence than it does of big-time conspiracy.
That's about every conspiracy theory to me...
Chief Technical Officer
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Ha$bro bought WotC in order to acquire the IP rights to the cash cow that is Magic the Gathering.
Magic was a ride-along as well—the real value was Pokémon. I suspect that even after nearly a decade, Magic hasn't come close to bringing in as much money as Pokémon did during the first years under Hasbro. The Pokémon TCG brought Hasbro the better part of 100 million dollars in 1999 alone.
Paizo is going to rock Gen Con *HARD*.
Not showing up will break the seventh seal.
You don't want *that* on your hands -- now do you?
Paizo is going to rock Gen Con *HARD*.
Not showing up will break the seventh seal.
You don't want *that* on your hands -- now do you?
Heck NO!
*attempts to patch the seal with arms full of cookie dough*
There just might be something going on if you come by the Paizo booth. Heck, if nothing else we'll make Logue eat a dozen hard-boiled eggs for your viewing pleasure. ;-)
Oooh!!! Yes!! And then make him dance a jig! Mwaah ha haaa!
Paizo is going to rock Gen Con *HARD*.
Not showing up will break the seventh seal.
You don't want *that* on your hands -- now do you?
That would be bad for everyone, right? At least for mankind. I need that in writing, so I can tell the governments to pay for my trip - if they all chip in, it will only be a pittance per government. Compared to the lost revenue from all the dead tax payers who won't pay their taxes any more, that should be an easy calculation.
So, if someone can just tell me where I can pick up my tickets and where I'll be staying (the Penthouse in the most expensive hotel around should be in for the saviour), I'll be along. Remember, I'm doing it all for you.
Not showing up will break the seventh seal. You don't want *that* on your hands -- now do you?
Actually, that sounds like it might be kind of fun. <evil grin>
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Of course...I'd like to see a really great company find a way to set up a gaming convention on the West Coast, again...I finally got to go the Gen Con SoCal in 2006, after not being able to attent a con for ten years, and then they cancel everything except GenCon Indy.
Now that Paizo's going with their own RPG, my next wish is for a gaming convention within easy reach of Southern California...of course, I'm in the military, so the convention will have to be able to relocate when I do...hmmm...I'm sure Paizo can do it. They can do anything!!!! ;)
Just as soon as he finishes digging the hole....and filling it back in.There just might be something going on if you come by the Paizo booth. Heck, if nothing else we'll make Logue eat a dozen hard-boiled eggs for your viewing pleasure. ;-)Oooh!!! Yes!! And then make him dance a jig! Mwaah ha haaa!
I love initiating the new guy.