Another thing from UA: the skeletal minion variant. Basically, a necromancer could get a skeleton familiar.
This was my favorite class variant by far in UA, but, unfortunately, it's a tad useless because it's so weak. However, I think that including this for necromancers in Pathfinder would be very, very cool--it just needs a few tweaks. I might change it to:
"A necromancer can an undead minion (a human warrior skeleton) as his familiar. Obtaining this minion takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.
This creature is a loyal servant that follows the necromancer's commands and accompanies her on adventures if desired. If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant.
At 1st level, the skeleton is completely typical, but it gains power as the necromancer gains levels. The skeleton has a number of Hit Dice equal to the necromancer's class level, it gains feats as thought it had an intelligence score, and it has bonus hitpoints equal to its Hit Dice. Add one-half the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's natural armor bonus; add one-half of the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's Strength and Dexterity scores."
Thoughts? (I lurve my necromancers.)
perhaps give the choice to the necromancers : skeleton, zombie or ghost.
For ghost, i think minor ghost (a spirit?) ie a ghost animal who not have all the power of the ghost archetype.
And why not a list of familiar for each school of magic ? A familiar that improve ?
The wizard choose a familiar from the original list, but the familiar gain power in fonction of the school ?
Evocator : Familiar transform to kind of elemental ( same apparence, a cat is a cat, but with elemental power : cat becomes cat fire elemental )
Necromancer : familiar transform to undead
Invocator : familiar grows ( cat becomes cougar, tiger ... )
...
Ghosts are inappropriate at first level. You can get a Master of Shrouds throwing around Shadows at level 5, which is about as low as I am willing to entertain the prospect of incorporeal characters.
Throwing in undead minions from level 1 is vital to the concept however.
-Frank
Just about every mage I've played has picked up a scroll of animate dead and cast it on a a manticore or chimera or some other ridable flying thing.
An undead cat or whatever just pales in comparison.
Good thing we aren't talking about a zombie cat.
Good thing we aren't talking about a zombie cat.
Even an Everquest-style zombie or skeleton pet pales in comparison.
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While the horde of expendable zombie minions is a classic, I'd kinda prefer the average Necromancer to have one undead minion, just for simplicities sake. Animate Dead, by the time a Wizard gets it, is pretty darn useless (normal Skeletons and Zombies are pretty useless by the time Clerics get them too, for that matter).
The plethora of undead that an undead controlling Cleric, on the other hand, can get their hands on via Rebuke, is just insane, and a lot of them have cool powers, like the Slaymates power to enhance Necromancy spells or tons of different undead's ability to Create Spawn under their control, and it seems like every sourcebook or supplement adds a few more weapons to that arsenal, since Undead are pretty popular beasties.
I'm totally conflicted. Part of me loves the shambling hordes (even if they're pretty much useless). Part of me loves the skeletal hydras. Part of me just wants a single minion, easy to deal with.
I guess I'd rather not mess with it too much, so that all of these options remain. If the Necromancer wants to use the Unearthed Arcana option, cool. If he wants to spend time Corpsecrafting up some Skeletal Hydras with all sorts of special features, cool. If he wants to build a castle and whips up a dozen shambling imbeciles to haul boulders, also cool.
Necromancer Wizards should definitely have a 1st level spell to Animate a single Skeleton, 'though. Waiting until 7th level to start with the minions is just harsh, since Conjurors and Enchanters can get flunkies right out of the gate.
Additionally, instead of having undead enhancements be limited to Corpsecrafter feats, there should be a role for Skills as well. A Heal check to find only the healthiest and strongest bones, or even stitch together animal bones, should allow a craftsmage to make stronger or tougher Skeletons. Alchemical ointments could be used to make the bones tough like iron, reducing the Dex of the final creature, but giving enough Natural Armor to make up for the loss. Replacing limbs with weapons, augmenting limbs to do more damage, or implanting stuffing/armor/hardened bits should also be able to reinforce undead minions using Craft (weaponsmithing) and Craft (armorsmithing or leatherworking) feats, rather than just using a Corpsecrafter feat. For the Necromancer who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty, there should be a notable advantage to spending some time and Skill Ranks on stuff that will enhance his 'disposable minions' and make them less of a joke.
Yes, there's a need. It's flavorful and can be had at the start of the character's career.
Yes, there's a need. It's flavorful and can be had at the start of the character's career.
Stating that it is flavorful and can be had from level one, doesn't actually support your assertion that a skeletal minion is needful for a necromancer... so, why exactly does a necromancer "need" the skeletal minion at first level?
There *IS* something on the Wizards site regarding this, but I can't remember where it is right now...
Yes, there's a need. It's flavorful and can be had at the start of the character's career.Stating that it is flavorful and can be had from level one, doesn't actually support your assertion that a skeletal minion is needful for a necromancer... so, why exactly does a necromancer "need" the skeletal minion at first level?
For the same reason that wizards "need" a familiar--that is, they don't, but it's good.
Yes, there's a need. It's flavorful and can be had at the start of the character's career.Stating that it is flavorful and can be had from level one, doesn't actually support your assertion that a skeletal minion is needful for a necromancer... so, why exactly does a necromancer "need" the skeletal minion at first level?
Because if Necromancers don't get skeletons or some other reanimated critter to throw around at the beginning of their careers, then we are back to the core rules where Clerics get more, better undead minions starting at a lower level than Wizards of any specialization. And that means that we are in the position where any organic character who wants to lead around undead minions should be a Cleric instead.
In short, if the necromancer can't make his own zombies at first level, there's no reason for him to even exist. We might as well just cut the Necromancer specialist out of the book and save space.
-Frank
Give necromancers desecrate as an SLA, usable 1/day. Or 3/day. Or something.
Oh, yes, undead familiars. Those are good, too.
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I think you would have had a more positive response if instead of saying, "Necromancers need an undead pet", you had wrote "Necromancers should have the option of having an undead pet". When I saw your opening line, I asked myself "why does a white necromancer possibly need an undead pet - what would he use it for, target practice?"
My thoughts exactly. As I already said in the Boring Necromancy post, not all necromancer are anti-social necrophiles. ;-)
I think you would have had a more positive response if instead of saying, "Necromancers need an undead pet", you had wrote "Necromancers should have the option of having an undead pet". When I saw your opening line, I asked myself "why does a white necromancer possibly need an undead pet - what would he use it for, target practice?"
That's the kind of semantics Nazism/post-doctoring I'd expect on WotC forums. Really, if people are going to get all bent out of shape because I said "need" versus "should maybe kind of have the option of having"...well, that's just retarded.
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Or does taking steps to improve how you communicate your point so that it is clearer to readers help?
While I'm sure he values your attempt at teaching him to communicate to your level, I think the thread was something to do with Necromancy and pets.
I feel that the Unearthed Arcana option should remain an option for the Necromancer, but also that some sort of animation spells should be available from the very lowest levels. A 1st level Animate Skeleton spell (perhaps with a specific duration or a limitation that only one could be maintained at a time) would be spiffy. A 2nd level version could Animate a Zombie. A Cantrip that temporarily summoned a Tiny Skeleton from a creatures hand or something for one minute could be neat, too.
And the 'white' Necromancers can just avoid that class option and take ye old Familiar instead, and stick to spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and Chill Touch.
If the archetype being portrayed by the "standard necromancer" can ever raise an army of the dead, it should be doing that from first level. If it doesn't do that, then people who want to reanimate corpses would do better to write "Cleric" on their character sheet than "Necromancer." If people want to play a character who does whatever it is that the proposed Necromancer does while it still can't raise skeletons at a level competitive with Clerics, then obviously the player doesn't want to animate corpses - and then the animation abilities should be taken off the class list entirely.
If it is intended to be a class that reanimates, it fails unless it can do that from level one. If it is intended to be a class that doesn't reanimate, it fails if there are ever any reanimation abilities on the list.
It's that simple. Move zombie creation to first level or cut it completely. Personally I would prefer the first option, as there are already eight different flavors of Wizard who don't animate corpses, and the Wizard necromancy spells that don't involve having undead minions have a tendency to be confusing (ghoul touch), broken (shivering touch[i]), or both ([i]magic jar).
We should just get over the fact that some people want to have an army of corpse men and still be the hero. I'm in medical school, I literally spent all day playing with corpses today, it's not a deal breaker on being the good guy.
-Frank
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If the archetype being portrayed by the "standard necromancer" can ever raise an army of the dead, it should be doing that from first level. If it doesn't do that, then people who want to reanimate corpses would do better to write "Cleric" on their character sheet than "Necromancer." If people want to play a character who does whatever it is that the proposed Necromancer does while it still can't raise skeletons at a level competitive with Clerics, then obviously the player doesn't want to animate corpses - and then the animation abilities should be taken off the class list entirely.
If it is intended to be a class that reanimates, it fails unless it can do that from level one. If it is intended to be a class that doesn't reanimate, it fails if there are ever any reanimation abilities on the list.
It's that simple. Move zombie creation to first level or cut it completely. Personally I would prefer the first option, as there are already eight different flavors of Wizard who don't animate corpses, and the Wizard necromancy spells that don't involve having undead minions have a tendency to be confusing (ghoul touch), broken (shivering touch[i]), or both ([i]magic jar).
We should just get over the fact that some people want to have an army of corpse men and still be the hero. I'm in medical school, I literally spent all day playing with corpses today, it's not a deal breaker on being the good guy.
-Frank
Hey, it's your favorite topic.
You just want undead "drones". Drop some buff spells on em and send in the clones.See "army" is what breaks the game. Nobody wants to go there. }: P
Hey, it's your favorite topic.
You just want undead "drones". Drop some buff spells on em and send in the clones.
See "army" is what breaks the game. Nobody wants to go there. }: P
But a "squad" of giant robots or a "harem" of monster hybrids is OK, right Ser Alex?
;)
-Frank
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Hey, it's your favorite topic.
You just want undead "drones". Drop some buff spells on em and send in the clones.
See "army" is what breaks the game. Nobody wants to go there. }: P
But a "squad" of giant robots or a "harem" of monster hybrids is OK, right Ser Alex?
;)
-Frank
It works in anime. The giant robots were for fighting the giant monsters obviously. }: P Uh which one was the monster hybrids? I forget. Oh! You mean the spiders. Well at least I don't send them to rape, pillage, and burn villages.... oh wait I do. Damn ok you got me there. But that's not low level.
Seriously though I'm ok with 1st level animating thematically but I fear balance issues at low levels anyway.
Oh and message me damn it, David and I need to talk to you about SR4 and Rome.
Yes, there's a need. It's flavorful and can be had at the start of the character's career.Stating that it is flavorful and can be had from level one, doesn't actually support your assertion that a skeletal minion is needful for a necromancer... so, why exactly does a necromancer "need" the skeletal minion at first level?Because if Necromancers don't get skeletons or some other reanimated critter to throw around at the beginning of their careers, then we are back to the core rules where Clerics get more, better undead minions starting at a lower level than Wizards of any specialization. And that means that we are in the position where any organic character who wants to lead around undead minions should be a Cleric instead.
In short, if the necromancer can't make his own zombies at first level, there's no reason for him to even exist. We might as well just cut the Necromancer specialist out of the book and save space.
-Frank
MAybe the problem here is that you envision a necromancer as a wizard and i view a necromancer as a priest of a dark god. The wizard(necromancer) in my book is a wizard that specializes in arcane necromancy spells and those spells do have animate undead spells and whatnot in the lists, however, there happens to be more spells that have nothing to do with undead than not. Anyway, the True Necromancer Prestige class is more in keeping with a necromancer than just an arcanist.
Undead Familiar? No thank you. As someone who plays necromantic characters regularly i think i will pass on a familiar that is vulnerable to Turning. I'll stick with animals associated with death or the underworld myself. Bad enough with the various ways to control magical beasts as it is.
If one inists on it, i believe there is a feat out there that changes the familiar's creature type from magical beast to undead (as well as other feats to change it to different types..among them changing it to construct for a clockwork version). Easy to enough to create those same feats without worrying about intellectual property and such. In Unearthed Arcana there was a nice option for a very special type of skeleton for necromancer specialists which gained increasing levels of Turn Resistance as i recall....equally easy to include something like that.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Maybe the problem here is that you all think that a character class should be tied to an overly narrow restrictive concept - custom built for it so that other concepts are poor fits? I'm surprised to find that innovation and creativity are given such short shrift here.
You shouldn't be surprised, given the circumstances.
What is on the table is a selection of nine Wizard railroads that specific players are allowed to select one of and then be stuck on those rails getting specific abilities (and by extension a specific schtick) until they can escape from the rails by taking a prestige class (which as we know is simply another even more specific set of rails to ride on as you continue to advance). So given that paradigm, people are not arguing here whether the Pathfinder Necromancer should be a fixed railroaded progression which grants specific schticks at specific levels for those players who select it at first level; but rather what said progression should give the character at each level.
There are nine specialist wizards who each get a fixed schtick. Right now many of them don't do their thing very well (exceptions include the Conjurer, the Enchanter, and the Illusionist who are all awesome), and I would venture to say that all of them have a schtick which is pretty confused (The conjurer, for example, has almost all of his abilities given over to battlefield control walls and clouds, but for some reason at first level he is throwing around acid darts rather than spreading grease or putting up barricades of wood).
What is being asked for on this thread is not a "Necromancer" that can be molded into many different Necromancer concepts, but merely a Necromancer whose presented concept is distinct from the other 8 presented concepts and good at his prospective role at all levels of play. I don't want the Necromancer to be a guy who shoots black rays of negative energy at people as his primary thing, because that doesn't feel very different from the Evoker whose schtick is apparently to shoot red rays of heat energy at people as his primary thing. With only 9 wizard archetypes to play with, "a different colored laser" is insufficiently cool and unique to warrant using up one of the precious specialist slots for in the book.
-Frank
Yes, it is. The point is, it'd be cooler to have a "pet" that would automatically improve as you got to higher levels.
I don't want the Necromancer to be a guy who shoots black rays of negative energy at people as his primary thing, because that doesn't feel...I don't believe the only choices are 1.) an undead general and b.) a black ray blaster. One interesting third alternative that comes to my mind is a scholar dedicated to hunting down and eradicating the undead plague (an academic version of Van Helsing). Such a character might have the ability to track down undead, to sense the presence of undead, to know the vulnerabilities and dangers of undead (via a high knowledge skill), magical shields and wards against undead (such as the ever popular 'protection from evil' as well as the more powerful 'undeath to death') as well as general purpose spells which can be used to fight undead, etc. He might be an expert on the dark rituals that black necromancers use. An atheist white Necromancer of the above sort might be quite an interesting twist.
Problem is 3.5 nor PRPG doesn't really support this (Thankfully it looks like in 4E there might be a White Necro path).
Yes, it is. The point is, it'd be cooler to have a "pet" that would automatically improve as you got to higher levels.yeah well it would be pretty cool for fighters to be able to summon a giant sword that bursts up through the ground and kill people, but not everything is a good idea just because it's cool. Take 4th edition for example.
Yes, because giving necromancers an alternate familiar is the equivalent of the retardation that you just espoused.
Problem is 3.5 nor PRPG doesn't really support this (Thankfully it looks like in 4E there might be a White Necro path).
Care to elaborate? I always thought that "white necromancers" were just healers.
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An atheist white Necromancer of the above sort might be quite an interesting twist.
Did you ever read any of the Sabriel books by Garth Nix? One of the main characters is a good necromancer whose job is to put help the restless dead find peace and keep baddies from the afterlife from returning. And he uses bells to do it. Pretty cool.
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Problem is 3.5 nor PRPG doesn't really support this (Thankfully it looks like in 4E there might be a White Necro path).
As I said in the Boring Necromancy thread, I have what you'd call a "white necro" in my group. He can stop enemies without killing them (ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion...) and can deal a lot of damage to undead (thanks to halt undead and undeath to death, not counting non-core spells). He can even avoid fighting enemies (all fear-based spells)... And he's not underpowered. At 9th level, he is perhaps the strongest PC in the group, thanks to the bonus to Thoughness saves provided by false life. This, without ever animating dead. ;-)
Actually, he kills more with black tentacles than with necromancy spells... :-D
Let's keep whether arcane necromancers need access to animate dead earlier separate from the undead familiar problem.
As for those who want undead familiars for their necromancers, here's the solution:
Click here for imagery
Shadow wisp familiar
A serpentine coil of blackness pours from your sleeve to gather around your shoulders as your familiar reveals itself fully.
Choose one of the following powers granted by this familiar:
Master gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadows
Master gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves
Shadow wisp familiars progress as ordinary familiars with the exception that they gain Immunity to Turning (Ex) at first level.
Shadow wisps:
Size/Type: Tiny Undead
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +5 Dex,), touch 17, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Shadowbite +5 melee (1d4-3)
Full Attack: Shadowbite +5 melee (1d4-3)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Immunity to Cold (Ex)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con -, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +14, Move Silently +17, Spot +6*
Feats: Alertness, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Graveyards or long forgotten ruins
Organization: Solitary
There you go, great fluff and simple crunch.
Problem is 3.5 nor PRPG doesn't really support this (Thankfully it looks like in 4E there might be a White Necro path).As I said in the Boring Necromancy thread, I have what you'd call a "white necro" in my group. He can stop enemies without killing them (ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion...) and can deal a lot of damage to undead (thanks to halt undead and undeath to death, not counting non-core spells). He can even avoid fighting enemies (all fear-based spells)... And he's not underpowered. At 9th level, he is perhaps the strongest PC in the group, thanks to the bonus to Thoughness saves provided by false life. This, without ever animating dead. ;-)
Actually, he kills more with black tentacles than with necromancy spells... :-D
I know it can be done, but IO wish it had a bit more support.
Black Tentacles is the bombs yo.
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I don't want the Necromancer to be a guy who shoots black rays of negative energy at people as his primary thing, because that doesn't feel...I don't believe the only choices are 1.) an undead general and b.) a black ray blaster. One interesting third alternative that comes to my mind is a scholar dedicated to hunting down and eradicating the undead plague (an academic version of Van Helsing). Such a character might have the ability to track down undead, to sense the presence of undead, to know the vulnerabilities and dangers of undead (via a high knowledge skill), magical shields and wards against undead (such as the ever popular 'protection from evil' as well as the more powerful 'undeath to death') as well as general purpose spells which can be used to fight undead, etc. He might be an expert on the dark rituals that black necromancers use. An atheist white Necromancer of the above sort might be quite an interesting twist.
Great idea. However, the accepted opinion of a necromancer, at least in this thread, seems to be the undead-raising specialist. The discussion is therefore ways to make that particular archetype viable when compared to undead-specialist clerics. If you want your necromancers to be learned vampire-hunters, fine. Take some levels in Ranger with Favoured Enemy (Undead), then create or adapt a Prestige Class that suits your idea. Or if you really want to go the whole hog, invent a brand new "Darkness Hunter" base class and take levels in that. That doesn't stop your character from referring to himself as a "Necromancer", just because he doesn't have levels in the class. He can be a "Necromancer" just as death-domain clerics can be "Necromancers" or Paladins in a far-eastern setting can be "Samurai". So do that. However the topic of this thread is, as stated, how to improve the other, skeleton-controlling flavour of Necromancer, so unless you have some productive ideas along those lines, go and do something productive like inventing said Vampire Hunter class and posting it on another thread.
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As far as necromancers being able to animate from level one, there was a 1st level necromancy spell from 2nd edition's complete book of necromancers that allowed the necromancer to animate animals (and only animals). This could be a solution to having to wait until they had animate dead to start your own army of darkness. As far as the whole undead pet goes, I seem to recall that wizards had a feat on their site called corpsestitched familiar, or something like that. Allowing necromancers to have it as a virtual feat attached to their familiar would probably not be too overpowering
I am seriously puzzled by the "Necromantic Undead Hunter Wizard" that people are throwing up as iconic.I am puzzled for several reasons:
- I can't actually name a single character who does that in any D&D derivative world fiction.
- Clerics of Sun gods essentially already do that at least as well as I could imagine any Wizard doing it.
- Most Undead go down to fire just as easily as positive energy, so there seems no great need to have much in the way of anti-undead destructive spells when the "anti-everything" destructive spells work fine.
There are only nine slots for Wizards as presented in Pathfinder. If you want an Occult Investigator archetype, I suggest that you wrangle it out over the Diviner, who is actually supposed to do that (and currently doesn't do it well).
-Frank
Another thing from UA: the skeletal minion variant. Basically, a necromancer could get a skeleton familiar.
This was my favorite class variant by far in UA, but, unfortunately, it's a tad useless because it's so weak.
Thoughts? (I lurve my necromancers.)
Are we talking about the UA Necromancer Variant? The one that gains HD every time you level as a necro? The one that gains a natural armor bonus equal to half your necro levels? The one that gets a strength AND dex increase for every three? In what way was it week?
Mind you, I loved the UA specialist variants, and would halve loved it if they had ported them straight form UA. I'm just trying to figure out in what way the undead minion was week?
--Half BAB.
--No feats.
--Low HP.
--No stat increases.
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<snip>A prestige class for each possible character concept is the kind of game design philosophy which leads to rules bloat. It is the number one largest game design error in 3x.
So, no, I think what you are suggesting is a -horrible- idea, no offense.
As for how to enhance the undead-raising concept, there are several options but which of those many options to use can't be answered until the more fundamental question of whether character concept should be left up to the player or the game designer is answered.
Ah. Let me refine my position.
I'm not suggesting that you have no right to play your particular favoured breed of necromancer, nor that your necromancer is a "worse" necromancer in any way. I'm just saying that the definition of "necromancer" is better left up to you in the context of your own game, and that if you wish to put the name on a different set of rules (or, if it's really so much difference, radically change the existing rules to suit your vision and keep the name) that's your decision. However, this thread is dedicated to mechanics for the undead-raising necromancer, and in that context your arguments that some other class should be awarded the name necromancer instead are contributing nothing whatsoever. Go get a different thread to debate that on.
However, for the sake of possibly ending this discussion so I can try and get back on topic, let us say that you have won this particular argument and that your version of the rules for a character who:
might have the ability to track down undead, to sense the presence of undead, to know the vulnerabilities and dangers of undead (via a high knowledge skill), magical shields and wards against undead (such as the ever popular 'protection from evil' as well as the more powerful 'undeath to death') as well as general purpose spells which can be used to fight undead, etc. He might be an expert on the dark rituals that black necromancers use.
...Which may I mention there are no rules of any kind for at the current time, so I suppose you'll have to brave the dreaded "rules bloat" if you want to see your idea come to fruition...But in any case, you win, so the Van-Helsing-Style-White-Mage-Ritualist-Guy is now the official definition of the term necromancer. So now help everyone by going and posting the official Necromancer rules (once they're made) on another thread titled that so we can all explore your version of the archetype in our own games. Meanwhile however, do you please mind if we continue to discuss the possible mechanics of the "Corpsecrafter" specialist wizard on this thread? Thankyou.