Am I the only one here who has ever thought about a half orc getting a bonus to charisma? If anything a half orc should get a minus to int, or maybe wisdom.
Here is my thought process. They are a barbarian race. The generally keep a type of order by how much they are strong, intimidating, and generally liked they can be. It can't be because of wisdom because they are flip'in barbarians. They go into a rage, charging into the front lines of battle will lighter than normal armor. How can you possibly say they are wise? Maybe they need a sort of wisdom to like in the wild, but they don't need to be more than wise than normal as these are class skills for a barbarian, they are thought these.
Now I can understand a ranger or druidic race having a wisdom bonus, but not a barbarian race.
So does anyone else here think they should get a bonus to charisma instead of wisdom?
So I guess I am alone here.
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Ok, so this looks like a good place to discuss half-orcs in general.
Fisrt off, like the OP, I question the whole "+2 to Wisdom" thing. His suggestions of a Charisma bonus does seem to make a bit more sense.
Second, I wanted to make mention of the half-orc versus the half-elf. The half-elf is fairly clear in getting racial traits from both human and elven ancestry. Why isn't the half-orc like that? The only clear racial traits that half-orcs get are weapon familiarity with any "orc" weapon, "Orc Ferocity", and "Orc Blood". So, where are the human traits.
I recall seeing somewhere a suggestion to give them a "floating" +2 to some stat vice the +2 to Wisdom. I think that would be a good start. Personally, I'd also consider giving them the human option of choosing any one class as their favored class. That might balance things out a bit as far as showing more of their human side.
Ok, so this looks like a good place to discuss half-orcs in general.
Fisrt off, like the OP, I question the whole "+2 to Wisdom" thing. His suggestions of a Charisma bonus does seem to make a bit more sense.
Second, I wanted to make mention of the half-orc versus the half-elf. The half-elf is fairly clear in getting racial traits from both human and elven ancestry. Why isn't the half-orc like that? The only clear racial traits that half-orcs get are weapon familiarity with any "orc" weapon, "Orc Ferocity", and "Orc Blood". So, where are the human traits.
I recall seeing somewhere a suggestion to give them a "floating" +2 to some stat vice the +2 to Wisdom. I think that would be a good start. Personally, I'd also consider giving them the human option of choosing any one class as their favored class. That might balance things out a bit as far as showing more of their human side.
Well I think the idea of a half orc is that they are "Orc light." The orcs are very unbalanced in their stats, and have light sensitivity, if I remember correctly. So they became more balanced when they crossbreed with humans. Also the orc traits must be more dominate than the human ones, so thus nothing other than the more balanced stats seems to show.
A floating +2 to any stat would need to take place for the physical stat, sense they are usually thought of having more value, and that would not go with the flavor, and they would have to have nothing else it seems with the system PDND.
I was thinking about this... I think half-orcs need to built based on the half-elf....
+2 to pick your own stat
Pick a weapon you want to be proficient in
Orcish ferocity
Darkvision
...and DONE. Much easier than the +2/-2/-2 from the PHB, and maybe not quite as good as the Alpha 1.1 +2/+2/-2. But it would present half-orcs as half-human, and match up nicely with half-elves.
I'm with him they have good flavor and nice stats love em. nice change.
I was thinking about this... I think half-orcs need to built based on the half-elf....
+2 to pick your own stat
Pick a weapon you want to be proficient in
Orcish ferocity
Darkvision...and DONE. Much easier than the +2/-2/-2 from the PHB, and maybe not quite as good as the Alpha 1.1 +2/+2/-2. But it would present half-orcs as half-human, and match up nicely with half-elves.
If Half Orcs ar going to be (nearly) identical Helf Elves, why even bother wasting the page space for them?
Change Half Elves to Half <insert race> and be done with it.
Personally, I'd rather keep the diversity of the Half Orc in there... But I prefer to keep options rather than remove them.
I like the Alpha half orc as is. It gives me more tools as a DM to throw at my players. I like the Charisma idea, as I feel that half orcs have strong, forceful personalities. But +2 to Wisdom makes them cunning and that is cool too.
A half orc ranger with human as her favored enemy using the orc ferocity could be scary to a 1st level party. I love that.
Here is my thought process. They are a barbarian race. The generally keep a type of order by how much they are strong, intimidating, and generally liked they can be. It can't be because of wisdom because they are flip'in barbarians. They go into a rage, charging into the front lines of battle will lighter than normal armor. How can you possibly say they are wise? Maybe they need a sort of wisdom to like in the wild, but they don't need to be more than wise than normal as these are class skills for a barbarian, they are thought these.
First off Wisdom as a stat and Wise as in real world are not the same... the stat increase to all mental stats as a character ages is a character getting "Wise" from experience... Wisdom encompesses that trait to an extent, however Wisdom also encompasses cunning (as opposed to book learning) and Intuition...
Second off, raging (Beserkers) and going into battle naked (Gauls) doesn't actually mean that the person isn't wise... certain cultures value personal bravery over personal survival and so charging naked against a Cohort of armored warriors a)gaurantee you fame within your culture (and if you dont think that is a motivating factor, explain all these people who go on reality shows), b)proves your brave (again more important in some cultures than survial) and c) gaurantees you a choice spot in the afterlife according to those cultures..
Thirdly, the avg person in a Barbarian culture is better than the avg "civilised" culture in things like surviving in the wilderness and perception which are wisdom based skills in these rules.
Everyone has thier favorite races...
This version of the Half-Orc is much improved over 3.5... he can be effective at other classes besides fighter/ranger/barbarian which is all i ever saw halforcs do before with maybe a splash of rogue... I wouldn't mind seeing a Greataxe wielding Halforc Cleric or Bard in my party....
And yes there wont be as many Halforc players as Dwarf players but who cares... there is still enough players that like the halforc
you talk about give the half orc the advantage of both human and orc ( like half elf ). But witch kind of orc race we will use ?
Orc
* +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Elf
* +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con
Half Elf
* +2 on stat
Human
* +2 in one stat
* competence bonus
I like the +2 +2 -2 choice, or the +2 For +2 somewhere.
I believe the Alpha half-orcs are fantastic and need no changes.
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If you're giving +2/+2/-2, it should be +2STR/+2CON/-2CHA or-2INT but a plus to WIS doesn't make much sense to me. The 3.5 PHB gives them +2STR,-2INT and -2CHA. Maybe they should get a minus in both but I think Paizo is trying to be consent in the bonuses in all there races. If they're going to be like half elves then maybe they should get a +2 in any of their physical stats but not to their mental stats. I think the best choise would be +4STR/-2INT/-2CHA for half orcs.
If you're giving +2/+2/-2, it should be +2STR/+2CON/-2CHA or-2INT
As has been discussed before, a +2 to Strength and Constitution is a terrible idea, even if it is appropriate.
Adding to Dexterity wouldn't really be appropriate, but it would be just as terrible.
No one complains about the -2 to Intelligence.
So that leaves a +2 to Wisdom, or Charisma, as the only choices left while remaining consistent.
Of those two, I prefer Wisdom. But making Half Orcs a great melee sorcerer isn't beyond my ability to enjoy.
While I disagree with the propriatness of + wis, I think that they need a sat that increases saving throws. All other races that get a minus get one stat bonus to saving throws.
I will just conseed, that even though this does seem a bit over powering, it is probably best for game balance with the other races.
The bonus to Wisdom makes sense to me. Wisdom can also be seen as instincts & intuition and trusting those things over more logical thought(as shown in the case of the Gray Orc race in Forgotten Realms who also get a bonus to Wisdom). For such a feral race this makes a great deal of sense to me.
As for Charisma penalty or bonus, I am overall against Charisma penalties and bonuses in general. Since applying them is a very situational thing. Why would a Half-Orc or Dwarf have a penalty among their own people? And keeping track of double ability scores is a bit cumbersome sometimes, especially for new players. Instead perhaps a chart for penalties and bonuses between various races.
For me though it isn't just about the stat bonuses. The half Orc has minimal benefits compared to the other races.
Dwarves have their stat block, Slow and Steady, Darkvision, Stone Cunning, Keen Senses, Greed, Hearty, Their Weapon Familiarity, Hatred, Defensive Traning and Stability for example.
Half Orcs have their stat bonus, Dark Vision, their Weapon Familiarity, Orc Ferocity and Orc Blood. That's it.
Gnomes have their stat block, Small, Low-Light Vision, Keen Senses, Obsessive, Illusion Resistant, Gnome Magic, Weapon Familiarity, Hatred and Defensive Training. Again that is more than the Half Orc.
All of the races seem to have more benefits. Give the brutes a break. Let them have cool ablities too.
Why not give them a feat ( restricted to warrior list ) ?
This will give the halforc a very good fighter, like some players wants he to be ...Half elf could dain the humain skill, half orc the bonus feat ...
But ... it's too powerfull
As for Charisma penalty or bonus, I am overall against Charisma penalties and bonuses in general. Since applying them is a very situational thing. Why would a Half-Orc or Dwarf have a penalty among their own people? And keeping track of double ability scores is a bit cumbersome sometimes, especially for new players. Instead perhaps a chart for penalties and bonuses between various races.
I agree 100%. CHA modifiers should NOT be used for the core races:
If 1/2 orcs don't get a penalty, than neither should dwarves.
If elves don't get a CHA bonus, than neither should gnomes.
Keep the wis bonus. It makes them crafty/sly.
If you want to give them an ability, how about rage 1/day?
Same as barbarian at 1st, and if they take barbarian, they add the extra to total rage/day.
Back in pre-3rd edition D&D, half-orcs got a charisma penalty but no affect to intelligence. Half-orcs were supposed to have the strength of an orc with the intelligence of a human...but still get a raw deal because no one liked them because they were half-orcs.
(They also got a comparatively meager selection of classes and painful level limits.)
However, I still prefer the Pathfinder solution to the 3.x one, as the 3.x solution rather blasted the poor fellows.
Back in pre-3rd edition D&D, half-orcs got a charisma penalty but no affect to intelligence. Half-orcs were supposed to have the strength of an orc with the intelligence of a human...but still get a raw deal because no one liked them because they were half-orcs.
(They also got a comparatively meager selection of classes and painful level limits.)
However, I still prefer the Pathfinder solution to the 3.x one, as the 3.x solution rather blasted the poor fellows.
Yeah, I con seed to Pathfinders version of half orcs.
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I have to side with the "Pro-Alpha" camp for this. My friends and I palytested the races last night, the half-orc is awesome as is. My gaming groups see half-orcs as almost the #3 PHB race selected (yes, over dwarves) for roleplaying flavour as much as anything. I think that with Pathfinder Alpha, they have a more mechanic-friendly set-up.
Some specific thoughts:
- half-orcs were always either warriors or divine casters (though, oddly, infrequently rangers) as NPCs in adventures, due to their ability score arrangement; with the current set-up, that would still be their strengths, but I can see more bards or sorcerers now that they lack the Charisma penalty (and possibly warlocks?)
-the wisdom bonus makes sense to me as well; no matter whether they are raised by humans or orcs, a half-orc would have to be quick-witted to deal with the potential abuse through their formative years; the natural cunning reference in previous posts is also a strong vote for a Wisdom bonus
-to make them seem more along the lines of "half-human" (as some previous posts on the discussion have stated), I like some of the ideas put forth: bonus feat (perhaps replacing the automatic weapon proficiencies) to signify their natural adaptability; a floating +2 ability score bonus (which could be used either to uber-boost their Strength, or even negate their Intelligence penalty) instead of the +2 Wisdom would give a lot of flexibility on how their parentage has manifested (given the multiple orc races)
I have to side with the "Pro-Alpha" camp for this. My friends and I palytested the races last night, the half-orc is awesome as is. My gaming groups see half-orcs as almost the #3 PHB race selected (yes, over dwarves) for roleplaying flavour as much as anything. I think that with Pathfinder Alpha, they have a more mechanic-friendly set-up.
Some specific thoughts:
- half-orcs were always either warriors or divine casters (though, oddly, infrequently rangers) as NPCs in adventures, due to their ability score arrangement; with the current set-up, that would still be their strengths, but I can see more bards or sorcerers now that they lack the Charisma penalty (and possibly warlocks?)-the wisdom bonus makes sense to me as well; no matter whether they are raised by humans or orcs, a half-orc would have to be quick-witted to deal with the potential abuse through their formative years; the natural cunning reference in previous posts is also a strong vote for a Wisdom bonus
-to make them seem more along the lines of "half-human" (as some previous posts on the discussion have stated), I like some of the ideas put forth: bonus feat (perhaps replacing the automatic weapon proficiencies) to signify their natural adaptability; a floating +2 ability score bonus (which could be used either to uber-boost their Strength, or even negate their Intelligence penalty) instead of the +2 Wisdom would give a lot of flexibility on how their parentage has manifested (given the multiple orc races)
All good points! If 1/2 Orcs don't get a CHA penalty, than neither should dwarves.
CHA = force of one's presence, not how squishy and likeable a person is.
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All good points! If 1/2 Orcs don't get a CHA penalty, than neither should dwarves.CHA = force of one's presence, not how squishy and likeable a person is.
So, and a little off-topic, but what would you suggest for the Dwarves' balancing adjustment? Possibly a -2Dexterity, which would suit them on their reduced movement and image of being people of stone?
Since all other core races have a +2/+2/-2 arrangment. For dwarves i would have to go with a penalty to Dexterity. More to represent their solid nature than any lack of actual manual dexterity. It really would not empair them in their preferred class of fighter.
Regarding half-orcs, i dont think it would be either inappropriate or unbalancing to give them the Scent ability from montser manual (much like the Gray Orcs of Realms).
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Regarding half-orcs, i dont think it would be either inappropriate or unbalancing to give them the Scent ability from montser manual (much like the Gray Orcs of Realms).-Weylin Stormcrowe
I'm sorry... I'm biased by LotR which I read 29 years ago before I started playing dnd 27 years ago... I really don't get an image of an Orc sniffing around when I think of one... but that's only me. Not saying that it couldn't work for the half-orc, just saying it doesn't fit "My" preconceived notion of them...
Just make it ST +2 and that's it.
Comes to D&D, I tend to leave Tolkien by the way side as far as views of races. If i wanted TOlkien i'd play MERP or Decipher's LOTR. While fantasy gaming owes a great deal to Toklien I feel we have moved far beyond the limited racial types of his world. I personally enjoy many of the reworking of races found in different settings...the cannibal halfling tribes of Athas, the city goblinoids of eberron, the varies elven races of most settings.
Even before the LoTR movies, i often had the image of the savage and feral orcs sniffing out their prey. Or listening intently for any sound of intruders (probably because their ears are described in the monster manual as 'lupine').
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Comes to D&D, I tend to leave Tolkien by the way side as far as views of races. If i wanted TOlkien i'd play MERP or Decipher's LOTR. While fantasy gaming owes a great deal to Toklien I feel we have moved far beyond the limited racial types of his world. I personally enjoy many of the reworking of races found in different settings...the cannibal halfling tribes of Athas, the city goblinoids of eberron, the varies elven races of most settings.
Even before the LoTR movies, i often had the image of the savage and feral orcs sniffing out their prey. Or listening intently for any sound of intruders (probably because their ears are described in the monster manual as 'lupine').
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I only used LotR as an example... not meaning that DND should be LotR... my point is that my view of races is influenced by fantasy and mythology... that's why, for example, I just can't picture elves as shorter than humans (other than elfquest, and even in elfquest you find out the original elves were taller, most depictions of the elves/sidhe is slightly to much taller than the avg humans), the picture of the basilisk looks funny to me (the basilisk is more serpentine than saurial IMHO), the hill giant is more a troll than the troll is, etc. It is a game, however, and so different reworking of stereotypes for different campaign worlds is good.
Anyway, from a balance issue, scent is a powerful ability (not like flying for example but still changes the dynamics of a lot of encounters)... so what would you do to balance it?
To balance Scent i would increase the half-orc DC an half-orc needed against scent-based effects...which given Alchemy is not that uncommon and the scentbreaker alchemical item is fairly cheap and would foul a half-orc's Scent ability for an hour.
Since all other core races have a +2/+2/-2 arrangment. For dwarves i would have to go with a penalty to Dexterity. More to represent their solid nature than any lack of actual manual dexterity. It really would not empair them in their preferred class of fighter.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Exactly!
I have house ruled that dwarves get the -2 to Dexterity instead of Charisma. Dwarves might be taciturn, but they have spirit! Drinking songs, long history, reputation for being stubborn, bad@$$ clerics, all of these things add up.
In the Hobbit didn't they have Gandalf be the head hunter to find them a burglar? Short, stout guys having less of a chance to get out of the way of something certainly feels like a Dexterity penalty to me.
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If you're giving +2/+2/-2, it should be +2STR/+2CON/-2CHA or-2INT but a plus to WIS doesn't make much sense to me. The 3.5 PHB gives them +2STR,-2INT and -2CHA. Maybe they should get a minus in both but I think Paizo is trying to be consent in the bonuses in all there races. If they're going to be like half elves then maybe they should get a +2 in any of their physical stats but not to their mental stats. I think the best choise would be +4STR/-2INT/-2CHA for half orcs.
Agreed, Half-Orcs are [from what I understand] are the outcasts from all races. -2 CHA makes sense to me. Wisdom bonus just doesn't make any sort of sense to me. Why would a Half-Orc be wise? Instinct? Maybe it is a subjective thing on how you wish to run such a character or what you understand the character race to be in your campaign world. +2 Wis just seems like too much of a bonus for me.
I like the +2 +2 -2 stat bonuses, but would like to use the following in my Pathfinder games. This will probably be my houseruling.
Human
+2 int or wis or cha .
May take -2 to any stat and get +2 to another. This may be the same stat as above, giving a +4 total.
Humans have a dominant place in every society. Some humans are legendary in their abilities.
Dwarf
+2 str
+2 con
-2 dex
Dwarves have stubby fingers and blocky builds which hamper them somewhat. They learn to use tools to compensate for their weaknesses when it comes to crafting, where years of trade secrets allow them to use intelligence in place of dexterity for fine work.
Elf
+2 dex
+2 int
-2 con
Quick bodied, Quick witted, but ethereal and frail.
Gnome
+2 int or wis or cha
+2 con
-2 str
Gnomes are always talented in some way. They are also hardy and tough. Their small build makes them weaker than the tall folk, as they lack mass and leverage.
Halfling
+2 dex
+2 cha
-2 str
Half-Orc
+2 str
+2 con
-2 int or wis or cha
Half Orcs gain the savagery of their orc parent, but are always hindered in some way when it comes to the subtleties of namegiver society.
Half-Elf
+2 int or wis or cha
+2 dex
-2 con
Half Elves have some of the versatility of their Human half with the quickness and frailty of their elven heritage
I disagree with a lot of your allocation of abiltiy bonuses. I've never seen dwarves as stronger than the average race, that's one that jumps out at me.
And the floater choices you have set for a number of races are not palatable at all.
I'm pro the Alpha Races, and especially pro the Alpha Half-orc.
I disagree with a lot of your allocation of abiltiy bonuses. I've never seen dwarves as stronger than the average race, that's one that jumps out at me.
And the floater choices you have set for a number of races are not palatable at all.
I'm pro the Alpha Races, and especially pro the Alpha Half-orc.
I'm pro the Alpha Races except for the CHA mods (positive and negative) and except for the fact that Halflings are now the smartest player race (?). If dwarves take a CHA penalty, then so should 1/2 Orcs. If gnomes get a CHA bonus, then so should elves.
I propose:
Dwarves: +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 DEX instead of CHA
Gnomes: +2 CON, +2 DEX or INT (quick-witted or nimble) instead of CHA, -2 STR
Halflings: +2 DEX, +2 CON (surprisingly resilient) instead of INT, -2 STR
Everything else is fine as is.
I think one part of this "problem" is the somewhat strange concept of Wisdom and Charisma.
Wisdom: Awareness, Willpower and "common sense"
Charisma: Attractiveness, persuasiveness and "force of personality"
Example:
Halflings and/or gnomes are curious and sometimes uncareful. Enough to give them a Wisdom penalty. BUT this would make them also less willpowered and less attentive to their surroundings!
Or for Charisma: Gruffy or unattractive races like dwarves or Half-orcs might be unattractive or bad in influencing others, but do they lack a "forceful personality"? I doubt that (especially for those two races)!
As I see that right in front of me, I come to the conclusion, that one point might be that Willpower and "Force of Personality" are two things that should be ruled together somehow.
I also think that Wisdom is the most blurred ability. Combining three diffrent stats into one.
I think one part of this "problem" is the somewhat strange concept of Wisdom and Charisma.
Wisdom: Awareness, Willpower and "common sense"
Charisma: Attractiveness, persuasiveness and "force of personality"Example:
Or for Charisma: Gruffy or unattractive races like dwarves or Half-orcs might be unattractive or bad in influencing others, but do they lack a "forceful personality"? I doubt that (especially for those two races)!
EXACTLY! (re: the bit I put in bold-face type)
I'm not sure about combining the ability scores but do think that they need to be more clearly defined.
I don't think any player race, as written, should take a hit to WIS or CHA (based on their flavor text). Likewise, I'm not sure if any race (as written) deserves a WIS or CHA bonus.
That's why the +2/+2/-2 set-up doesn't work. Go with a simple +2/-2 for all races and leave it at that:
Dwarves: +2 CON, -2 DEX
Elves: +2 DEX, -2 CON
Gnomes: +2 CON, -2 STR
Halflings: +2 DEX, -2 STR
Half-Elves: None
Half-Orcs: None or +2 STR, -2 INT
Humans: None
Good ability adjustments, from my POV.
While I know that this will never happen for PATHFINDER,
I think of changing the mental abilities to clearify them:
AW arenss - Perception, "Sixth Sense", Empathie
IN telligence - as standard (good for Bluff and maybe diplomacy)
PS yche - Willpower, "Force of Personality", Resolve (good for leadership and intimidate)
I think "Common Sense" (or impulsiveness/temperament) is nothing to put into any of the abilities.
It should remain a roleplaying aspect.
Good ability adjustments, from my POV.
Thanks... I'm all for a "keep it simple" approach.
As for changing the ability scores, I think you're right. They are sacred cows that won't change.
WIS, in my opinion, should represent a creature's willpower and perceptiveness (including intuition). Whether a character is impulsive or prudent is up to the individual player.
CHA represents a creature's force of presence and ability to influence others. The problem is that (for instance) seducing an NPC is FAR different from scaring the crap out of that same NPC, yet CHA modifies both equally.
I was thinking Half-Orc should be +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int or Cha, Orcs should be the ultimate meatshield. No wisdom minus because orc shamans should be an option. Half Orcs should also have a get double their str with two handed weapons.
In my years of playing I have only seen half Orc used three times. They were good, but not that good and the minus to two abilities scared most players away.
This ugly race needs to be alittle more attractive.
I was really surprised to see 1/2 orcs receiving a +2 wis. I am guessing this is due to trying to fit the +2/+2/-2 format.
1/2 human races typically have bonuses somewhere between the full to 1/2 the bonuses/penalties of the other than human race. Is this to mean that orcs will have a +4 str and a +4 or +2 wis? That just does not seem to fit the race. Are they a race of deeply religion creatures whose leaders are clerics and druids? I would far prefer any change to the orc to be a +2 con instead of a +2 wis. This then could carry over to their 1/2 orc offspring. In orc society I have always seen leaders potrayed as the strongest there is/ the toughest fighter. They fight among themselves and the strongest, best fighters take leadership. Theirs is a life of strife and hardship that 1/2 orcs often suffer from.
Again I say that the plus to wisdom makes great sense.
Representative of a more animalistic instinct. And if you look at the vast majority of animals of minimally +2 to wisdom, or +4 in the case of the owl. Also clerics/shaman have always been dominant as apart of orcish "culture"...so in the end I beleive it makes a great deal of sense.