A stated design goal of the crafting rules is they're meant to be easy skill wise. Being 'able' to make the items has never been an issue. Paying for them and having the time to craft them is the scarceness in that aspect of the game.
Easy crafting DCs are not the problem. The problem is, by intending to make the crafting DCs easy, they have opened the possibility of making cheap magic items of levels above what players should have at their levels. There are alot of post with exemples of exploits, like:
- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).
- A wizard can craft a scroll of any spell he wishes to learn.
- A 3rd lvl wizard could craft a Candle of Raise Dead with DC 24 and 1,125gp.
- At lvl 3, you can create a +5 Spellcraft Amulet with DC 15 for 1,250g, and with it soon a +10 for 5,000g and +15 for 11,250g.
There are some relatively cheap magic items that can solve big problems:
- At lvl 5, a druid could craft a teleportation spoon.
- A cleric could craft a flute of summon natures ally way above his level.
These are problems, and we all shouldn't have to make the same house rule to prevent these, it should be in RAW, not the other way around as it is.
Sure, a reasonable DM could fix all of this, but it would be much better if these rules didn't depend only on the reasoning of any DM. It would be much better if the rules were more strict, to prevent unreasonable DMs from doing crap, and the reasonable DMs would still be able to allow reasonable exceptions.
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A stated design goal of the crafting rules is they're meant to be easy skill wise. Being 'able' to make the items has never been an issue. Paying for them and having the time to craft them is the scarceness in that aspect of the game.Easy crafting DCs are not the problem. The problem is, by intending to make the crafting DCs easy, they have opened the possibility of making cheap magic items of levels above what players should have at their levels. There are alot of post with exemples of exploits, like:
- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).
So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
- A wizard can craft a scroll of any spell he wishes to learn.
Nope. Spell completion items cannot bypass spell requirements
- A 3rd lvl wizard could craft a Candle of Raise Dead with DC 24 and 1,125gp.
Good. Sometimes characters die early on, there should be a way to res them, and that's still quite a bit of money for a level 3.
- At lvl 3, you can create a +5 Spellcraft Amulet with DC 15 for 1,250g, and with it soon a +10 for 5,000g and +15 for 11,250g.
Where's he getting the money for the second and third one, precisely?
There are some relatively cheap magic items that can solve big problems:
- At lvl 5, a druid could craft a teleportation spoon.
Again, where's the money coming from? Plus, that's a custom magic item, GM can deny if desired.
- A cleric could craft a flute of summon natures ally way above his level.
And again, he needs the money, time and GM approval.
These are problems, and we all shouldn't have to make the same house rule to prevent these, it should be in RAW, not the other way around as it is.
Sure, a reasonable DM could fix all of this, but it would be much better if these rules didn't depend only on the reasoning of any DM. It would be much better if the rules were more strict, to prevent unreasonable DMs from doing crap, and the reasonable DMs would still be able to allow reasonable exceptions.
Surprisingly, most of these problems cease to exist if we stop pretending low level characters have unlimited time and money to craft things, and remember that custom magic items require GM approval to create.
Kchaka,
How are you crafting a +1 weapon at CL 20 when the CL for a +1 weapon is specifically 3? Even if you raise the CL of that weapon to 20 all it does is make it harder to dispel (something that almost never happens anyhow).
A wizard must have the spell to craft the scroll or must have someone/something able to supply the spell. I don't see a problem here.
Heck, that is a more expensive route than the standard route of paying SL*SL*15 to learn and scribe the spell.
How are you arriving at 1,125gp for a "candle of raise dead"? Even crafting a Scroll of Raise Dead isn't that cheap 1125/2+5000gp = 5,562.5gp to craft.
If it is an item already in existence please supply the link.
Yes, you can craft spellcraft amulets. So what you are saying is that a wizard can make an item to help him craft in order to make something easy even easier? Where is the problem? It still doesn't get around the gold issue.
Please supply the link to this 'teleportation spoon'.
Please supply the link to this 'flute of summons'.
It sounds like you are not using the primary limit, wealth. Most of your points have no calculation for wealth or are using incorrect calculations.
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- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
It would have had a big impact in the fight we has Sunday. The NPC archer bow was capable to bypass wind wall thanks to the seeking ability and he was dishing out a lot of damage. But the bow CL was only 12 and the PC were capable to dispel it for 3 rounds, neutralizing most of the archer offensive abilities.
It the bow had a CL of 20 it would have been very different. The difference between a character being saved by breath of life and surviving as the archer was unable to further damage her and her dieing the next round as the bow was still magic. Probably it would have meant a lot of damage to a second character too.
- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
It would have had a big impact in the fight we has Sunday. The NPC archer bow was capable to bypass wind wall thanks to the seeking ability and he was dishing out a lot of damage. But the bow CL was only 12 and the PC were capable to dispel it for 3 rounds, neutralizing most of the archer offensive abilities.
It the bow had a CL of 20 it would have been very different. The difference between a character being saved by breath of life and surviving as the archer was unable to further damage her and her dieing the next round as the bow was still magic. Probably it would have meant a lot of damage to a second character too.
And I'm still not seeing that as exploitative so much as, by level nine, minimum for breath of life, why are you expecting wind wall to stop projectiles when your enemies should all have magic weapons.
Diego Rossi, could you provide rules where it states you can artificially raise the CL of a weapon? I cannot remember any off of the top of my head.
How are you crafting a +1 weapon at CL 20 when the CL for a +1 weapon is specifically 3? Even if you raise the CL of that weapon to 20 all it does is make it harder to dispel (something that almost never happens anyhow).
CL 3 is the requirement to make +1 weapons. The minimum CL to make +5 weapons should be 15, but even that you can bypass with a +5 to DC. The weapon was just an example of how something "cheap" could be made at CL 20. If you don't like this example, think of Winged Boots or Headband of Intelect, something that would screw you badly if it got dispelled. Personaly, I want to be able to set my items at to the same CL as I have, I just don't think it's right to be able to do so, like CL 17, before I even have CL 17.
How are you arriving at 1,125gp for a "candle of raise dead"?
Sorry, forgot to add the damn 5,000g diamond. The point is, with craft wonderous item at lvl 3, you can craft single use, use-activated item of virtualy any spell, like Arrow Magnet or Dust of Darkness. Theoretically, they could cost the same price as a potion, or twice at worst.
Yes, you can craft spellcraft amulets. So what you are saying is that a wizard can make an item to help him craft in order to make something easy even easier? Where is the problem? It still doesn't get around the gold issue.
It sounds like you are not using the primary limit, wealth.
Table: Character Wealth by Level
3 --- 3,000 gp --------------- 6 --- 16,000 gp4 --- 6,000 gp --------------- 7 --- 23,500 gp
5 --- 10,500 gp ------------- 8 --- 33,000 gp
A party of 4 has quite alot of gold, and even if the DM doesn't allow any one of them to make one item worth more then half their WBL, at lv 5 they could already individualy make items woth 5,000g, and it will be hard to say no if they wanna group up and craft something Uber for the whole group, like a druid making a teleportation spoon.
Teleportation Spoon:(CRB,pag 550) Single use, use-activated: Teleport (Lv5) = CL 9 x SL 5 x 50 x 2(no slot) = 4,500g/2,250g to craft. Up to the GM, and there lies the loophole.
Flute of Summons:(CRB,pag 550) Single use, use-activated: Summon Nature Ally V(Lv5) = CL 9 x SL 5 x 50 x 2(no slot) = 4,500g/2,250g to craft. Up to the GM, and there lies the loophole.
The Point IS: +5 to the DC gives you access to stuff before you should have, with too much flexibility by RAW.
could you provide rules where it states you can artificially raise the CL of a weapon?
In the First post, it's a copy of a post from Sean K Reynolds, HERE <-- Click.
There's alot of relativelly cheap items you can make that could make alot of difference. For cheap items, time isn't much of a factor, and even so, time can be VEEERY relative in D&D.
If you guys don't see the potential problems here, you are lacking imagination.
OK, starting with..."cheap". +5 is not "Cheap". Level 3 cannot afford it.
I'd still like to know how you are setting these things at a higher DC. Do you have a rule quote?
Yes, you can craft it...IF you have the money AND the time AND if it falls within your WBL limit of +25% per feat. I fail to see the problem here.
You are ignoring the rules for crafting in Ultimate Campaign which state that Craft Wondrous Item only gets you a net of +25% WBL. So, even if a party of four level 3 PCs with one crafter have 12,000gp between them the party wizard can only craft something that costs 750gp before it uses up 'real' money.
Ie: that gives the party 12,750gp of buying power. Having one person with Craft Wondrous Items does not give them 24,000gp buying power.
Again, I fail to see a problem.
If the party wants to waste ridiculous sums of money on a one shot summon monster or teleport, why would it matter? They won't be getting that money back.
+5 to the DC does not give you access to anything. Wealth gives you access. Wealth that is strictly limited unless the GM screws up and gives too much to the party.
This has been debated repeatedly over the years but really it boils down to cash, not crafting DCs.
Frankly, the CLs are so damned arbitrary as to not make sense anyhow. Hence the FAQ that started this thread.
Summary: DCs are meaningless and arbitrary. Wealth is the real limitation and as long as you ignore that fact you will always see DCs as a problem.
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Diego Rossi, could you provide rules where it states you can artificially raise the CL of a weapon? I cannot remember any off of the top of my head.
The only CL requirement for a item is that the CL is high enough to cast the needed spells, The effect of raising the CL is that you have a higher DC when crafting the item. You don't need a special dispensations at all to make an item at CL above the minimum. As weapons don't have a special rule saying that they can't be make at a CL higher than the minimum they follow the general rule.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
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- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
It would have had a big impact in the fight we has Sunday. The NPC archer bow was capable to bypass wind wall thanks to the seeking ability and he was dishing out a lot of damage. But the bow CL was only 12 and the PC were capable to dispel it for 3 rounds, neutralizing most of the archer offensive abilities.
It the bow had a CL of 20 it would have been very different. The difference between a character being saved by breath of life and surviving as the archer was unable to further damage her and her dieing the next round as the bow was still magic. Probably it would have meant a lot of damage to a second character too.
Sorry, could you explain how a Seeking weapon can bypass what is not a miss CHANCE, but just a flat-out miss?
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.
The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment.
Sorry, that is not a miss chance, it is just a flat-out miss.
Diego Rossi, so what you are saying is that there is no rule, and as a custom item it is GM fiat to allow the CL20 +1 weapon. Gotcha.
The FAQ you quoted is intended to allow people to appropriately reduce the CL to the minimum required for items (such as the Pearl of Power) that default to the most powerful version's CL.
It is not intended to raise the CL to 20 "just because I want to" without some sort of cost. Allowing that is entirely GM fiat and not in any way how the magic item system is constructed.
So, do you have a rule or clear guideline that states you can raise the CL without raising the cost of an item?
Uwotm8, it has already been shown that Caster Level on items has an impact when dispelling the item.
Wizard, "I cast Dispel Magic on your +1 sword, lets see...it should be CL3, right?"
Fighter, "Nope! I had this specially made as a CL20 sword for NO EXTRA COST!!! Good luck dispelling this sucker baby!"
So can I create a Staff Magus with an ~4000 gold staff of Arcane Mark at 20th caster level, thus getting a +5 double weapon?That's not how it works. You pay for the enhancement on weapons, not the caster level. The CL, however, can't be higher than your current CL to craft the weapon.
Staff Magus special ability. When using a staff, they treat it as a magic quarterstaff with an enhancement bonus equal to 1/4 (minimum 1) the staff's caster level. Of course, having a double +5 weapon as a Magus is useless because you don't twf as one, by level 11 you could already get a temporary +5 weapon with arcane points (you should have a base +2 or +3 by then), and you could do it even cheaper as a Bladebound, and the Staff Magus has at most a 19-20 crit range on a class that lives for crits. But yes, he could get a cheap +5 weapon in a less efficient manner than he could otherwise as part of a corner case with enough drawbacks that calling it exploitative is a stretch.
Indeed, given that highest CL on a regular staff is 15, I'd go so far as to say that this is intended. Of course, I'd personally suggest a more expensive staff, as the actual power of a Staff Magus is the ability to restore charges with his arcane pool, without needing to be able to cast the highest level spell in the staff, which is far more powerful than a rather piddly increase to attack and damage.
So, not really an exploit at all.
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- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
It would have had a big impact in the fight we has Sunday. The NPC archer bow was capable to bypass wind wall thanks to the seeking ability and he was dishing out a lot of damage. But the bow CL was only 12 and the PC were capable to dispel it for 3 rounds, neutralizing most of the archer offensive abilities.
It the bow had a CL of 20 it would have been very different. The difference between a character being saved by breath of life and surviving as the archer was unable to further damage her and her dieing the next round as the bow was still magic. Probably it would have meant a lot of damage to a second character too.Sorry, could you explain how a Seeking weapon can bypass what is not a miss CHANCE, but just a flat-out miss?
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment.Sorry, that is not a miss chance, it is just a flat-out miss.
Or it is a 100% miss chance. It can be interpreted both ways.
As the other kinds of missile weapons have a miss chance it is reasonable to think that the arrow and bolts too have a miss chance, simply it is a 100% miss chance.
So, not really an exploit at all.I didn't say it was an exploit. You simply can't craft it as you're not CL 20. Though, when talking about magical staves, CL does factor for them cost wise. However, magical staves cast spells and is why. Otherwise, you just have a +enhancement weapon.
My apologies, that rant wasn't aimed at you, it was in response to the post you were responding to, which was implying that making a CL 20 staff would be exploit because of the Staff Magus. (Other than the part about the Staff Magus' ability. That was in response to you). That being said, yes he can craft a staff with a CL above his own, as CL isn't part of the requirements to craft a staff, although he does have to be able to cast any spells he wants in the staff.
- At lvl 3, crafting +1 weapons for 2,300g at CL 20(and also most items).So it's really hard to dispel. How very exploitative. Still only a +1.
It would have had a big impact in the fight we has Sunday. The NPC archer bow was capable to bypass wind wall thanks to the seeking ability and he was dishing out a lot of damage. But the bow CL was only 12 and the PC were capable to dispel it for 3 rounds, neutralizing most of the archer offensive abilities.
It the bow had a CL of 20 it would have been very different. The difference between a character being saved by breath of life and surviving as the archer was unable to further damage her and her dieing the next round as the bow was still magic. Probably it would have meant a lot of damage to a second character too.Sorry, could you explain how a Seeking weapon can bypass what is not a miss CHANCE, but just a flat-out miss?
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment.Sorry, that is not a miss chance, it is just a flat-out miss.Or it is a 100% miss chance. It can be interpreted both ways.
As the other kinds of missile weapons have a miss chance it is reasonable to think that the arrow and bolts too have a miss chance, simply it is a 100% miss chance.
Miss chance is used in specific ways in the book. There is no miss chance. It is just a miss.
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So can I create a Staff Magus with an ~4000 gold staff of Arcane Mark at 20th caster level, thus getting a +5 double weapon?That's not how it works. You pay for the enhancement on weapons, not the caster level. The CL, however, can't be higher than your current CL to craft the weapon.
Actually, if I can meet the Dc and I have the money, I can craft a item well above CL.
Wizard 6 want to make a +5 sword. The CL of the sword is 15.
DC 5 (base) +15 (needed caster level) +5 (not having a Cl of 3*the weapon enhancement bonus) = total DC 25
6 skill ranks, +6, class skill +3, base intelligence 20 +4, skill focus spellcraft +3 = +16 total bonus
He can take 10 and make the sword.
It is all into this FAQ:
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
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Bypassing a requirement and inflating CL beyond your own are two different things.
But a +5 sword is, by definition a CL 15 item. A level 6 wizard, as per Diego Rossi's example can, theoretically, create a level +5 sword. Ergo, you can create an item with a higher caster level than your own. It just increases the DC by +5+X where X is the CL of the item.
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Bypassing a requirement and inflating CL beyond your own are two different things.
The FAQ allow a crafter to craft a +5 weapon at level 6. A +5 weapon has a minimum CL of 15. Ergo the FAQ allow him to make something at a CL higher than his own.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
Let's make an example with a different item
I want to make a Manual of Bodily Health. That item need a CL of 17 as the required spell is wish.
I am level 10.
The FAQ say I can make the item increasing the item DC for lacking wish but I can't make the item with a CL lower than 17, so I will still have to make it at CL 17. Ergo I am making an item with a CL higher than my one and I am following the rules as written and FAQed.
What you can do is make the item exactly as it is in the book, so DR is correct in that regard. What you can not do is set any CL that you want. I don't know if anyone is actually arguing this however.
A bit late to this, but my group runs it as "yes, you can make higher level items, but then that's another pre-req you're not meeting and thus another +5 to the DC."
So a L6 character making a +5 sword still has to pass a DC 25 (5 + 15 (level) + 5 (unmet pre-req)) crafting check to make the item in 50 days, or DC 30 to make it in 25 days.
Which is totally doable with the right set up, but why does the 6th level character have 25,000 gold to spend on a sword in the first place?
Note on that on higher end/more complex items, not meeting the pre-reqs can make the DC scale up very fast. (For example, I'd put the DC to craft an Otherwordly Kimono without meeting any prereqs at a 40 - 5 + 15 (level) + 20 (unmet prereqs).)
So yeah. PCs with lots of money and no time pressure can get stuff made. The crafting rules are PC friendly, as long as time is on the PCs' side.
Another pertinent exemple:
Disruption Weapon(+2): CL 14, Heal. (DC 29 for a wizard)
A Lv 8 wizard, with Int 20, a headband of Int +4 (a must) and an amulet of +5 spellcraft for 1,250g can craft items up to DC 34 with a take 10, enough to make that, something that normaly would require a 11th lvl cleric or druid, AND, since it's "paying" the +5 on DC to eliminate the Heal requirement, he won't have to reserve a 6th level slot every day for the item, during the creation process.
It's kinda disturbing to see some classes doing some stuff completly out of their "jurisdiction".
Another pertinent exemple:
Disruption Weapon(+2): CL 14, Heal. (DC 29 for a wizard)
A Lv 8 wizard, with Int 20, a headband of Int +4 (a must) and an amulet of +5 spellcraft for 1,250g can craft items up to DC 34 with a take 10, enough to make that, something that normaly would require a 11th lvl cleric or druid, AND, since it's "paying" the +5 on DC to eliminate the Heal requirement, he won't have to reserve a 6th level slot every day for the item, during the creation process.
It's kinda disturbing to see some classes doing some stuff completly out of their "jurisdiction".
The real obstacle to crafting is not intended to be the crafting DC. It's time and money.
How about this out of jurisdiction: People without spellcasting abilities at all can craft. Why? Why not? It has been a concept in mythology for forever. The blacksmith making a magical weapon.
Exactly, it is why anytime someone brings up 'caster level' or 'not part of their class' I just chuckle. In a world where non-magical people can craft weapons, armor, and wondrous items is it really so far fetched that a cleric can craft something that has a wizard spell in it?
Answer: nope.
How this works is all just a design decision. Pathfinder has opted to make crafting easy. If you don't like it, that's what house rules are for.
There's a difference between easy and before it's time. With the +5 DC rule, crafters are making items before they could. It makes no sense to have crafting requirements if we can skip them all easily.
Although not pretty, I don't mind letting the fighter craft his Wings of Flying with tailoring and master craftsman (which, btw, pales in comparison to craft wonderous item, like all other ICF, by RAW), it's for game balance. What I don't agree is a "CL" 10 fighter creating a CL 15 item.
Question: Do you guys see any problem with not letting crafters skip the crafting requirements?
Kchaka, you have repeatedly stated that the DCs are the control of when crafters should be able to craft something. However, you are ignoring a few facts.
1) The CL of magic items did not change in the move from 3.5 to Pathfinder. This means that some DCs are artificially high 'just because of legacy CLs'.
2) The DC to craft a magic item did not exist in 3.5. There was no chance to fail.
Combined with fact #1 is it unreasonable that the Devs wanted the DCs to be easy?
3) The Devs have repeatedly indicated that wealth is the control, not DCs and that DCs are intended to be easy.
To answer your question, I see absolutely no problem letting crafters skip crafting requirements (other than the crafting feats).
There's a difference between easy and before it's time. With the +5 DC rule, crafters are making items before they could. It makes no sense to have crafting requirements if we can skip them all easily.
Although not pretty, I don't mind letting the fighter craft his Wings of Flying with tailoring and master craftsman (which, btw, pales in comparison to craft wonderous item, like all other ICF, by RAW), it's for game balance. What I don't agree is a "CL" 10 fighter creating a CL 15 item.
Question: Do you guys see any problem with not letting crafters skip the crafting requirements?
No. The rules says they can skip it so they can, and you have yet to list an in game problem that is likely to take place. All of your examples rely on things such as having a lot more wealth(which is a mentioned limiter), or an item that depends on GM Fiat(another limiter), if not both. I don't count corner cases when looking at balance. Bring us a likely problem. Also the CL of an item is not linked to power. After all those pearls of power are CL 20, and they are not breaking any games.
Well, I think the CL is what control at what level each item should be made, not the DC. A specialized crafter with skill focus, trait bonuses and whatever would be able to craft some items before other crafters, but even someone with +50 to spellcraft and 45,000g would not be able to craft a ring of regeneration if he doesn't have the min CL for the required spell and if there were no way to skip that requirement.
Even in 3.5, where the is no check, no DC, there's also no way to skip the requirements.
A problem I see is that the corebook magic items have CL normaly above the theoretical min CL for crafting them. I think they wanted to boost the CL of those items exactly for dispelling purpose. I don't know if the min CL for a ring of regeneration should be 13 or 15. I mean, if a Lv 13 cleric crafts a ring of regeneration it will be CL 15, according to the book. I kinda thought it should be 13.
Kchaka, the problem here is not really a rules problem so much as a design philosophy problem. You are correct that in 3.X you could not bypass the requirements. Well, in 2nd you couldn't even craft magic items.
In Pathfinder you not only can bypass the requirements you can pretty much craft anything you want if you have enough money and time. The Devs have stated that the design philosophy for Pathfinder when it comes to crafting is that there should be easy DCs and let the wealth rules cover what you can make.
Whether you agree with that design philosophy or not it continues the trend where in 2nd edition people were asking to craft and then in 3rd edition people were asking for crafting to be made easier.
The Devs have stated what their intent is and if you want to go another route that is what houserules are for but frankly, so long as a person with no caster level whatsoever can craft CL20 items I see no problem with a guy crafting higher CL items.
Well, I think the CL is what control at what level each item should be made, not the DC. A specialized crafter with skill focus, trait bonuses and whatever would be able to craft some items before other crafters, but even someone with +50 to spellcraft and 45,000g would not be able to craft a ring of regeneration if he doesn't have the min CL for the required spell and if there were no way to skip that requirement.
Even in 3.5, where the is no check, no DC, there's also no way to skip the requirements.
A problem I see is that the corebook magic items have CL normaly above the theoretical min CL for crafting them. I think they wanted to boost the CL of those items exactly for dispelling purpose. I don't know if the min CL for a ring of regeneration should be 13 or 15. I mean, if a Lv 13 cleric crafts a ring of regeneration it will be CL 15, according to the book. I kinda thought it should be 13.
But the CL of the items has no link to their power. In order for you idea to work there has to be a consistent link between CL and power of the item. That design philosophy is not what the rules were based around, and trying to make rules based on "not how they were intended to work" makes things worse.
Now in 3.5 in the magic item compendium they also had a table that listed the levels that certain items should expect to be found in the game.
IIRC it was related to the price of the item. I would use that as a house rule since price is more directly related to power, and access than CL is.
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Yep, anyone can quyalify for the Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Items feats, these days:
Master Craftsman
Huh. Forgot that it was actually a CRB feat, thought it came from the APG instead.
Max CL, essentially, is the PC's level, since CL equals the character's ranks in the skill.
It explicitly mentions the same points covered in the rules, about not being able to make spell activation or spell trigger items without assistance, but otherwise just raising the DC.
I could see a party in a home game where the Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian is the one making the magical weapons and armor, the Rogue or Ninja crafting the Wondrous Items, the Wizard crafting scrolls, and the Cleric crafting wands.
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Kchaka, you have repeatedly stated that the DCs are the control of when crafters should be able to craft something. However, you are ignoring a few facts.
1) The CL of magic items did not change in the move from 3.5 to Pathfinder. This means that some DCs are artificially high 'just because of legacy CLs'.
2) The DC to craft a magic item did not exist in 3.5. There was no chance to fail.
Combined with fact #1 is it unreasonable that the Devs wanted the DCs to be easy?
3) The Devs have repeatedly indicated that wealth is the control, not DCs and that DCs are intended to be easy.
To answer your question, I see absolutely no problem letting crafters skip crafting requirements (other than the crafting feats).
The real problem is that the passage wasn't smooth.
The Devs have made the right choice allowing people to craft items without knowing the spell, as that open up the crafting abilities to the spontaneous casters and the non casters.On the other hand it has opened up the ability to craft items at a caster level above your own. And that has its set of problems.
Wealth isn't a a good way to control that.
The first problem is that player characters can pool their money to craft items that will change the balance of the encounters.
The second, and for me, more important problem, is one of setting believability. Why rich reign don't have an abundance of useful magic items? An example I have often made is using Craft wondrous items to make a statue of the local hero that enchant the weapons and armors you place on its pedestal with greater magic weapon and magical vestment at CL 20 an unlimited number of times in a day. Place it in the local garrison courtyard and have your troop use it before entering service. You troops will have +5 weapons, armor and shield for 20 hours.
Costly? Not really for a government. 600.000 gp at most. 150 BP or the equivalent of 2.000 masterwork weapons.
Disruption Weapon(+2): CL 14, Heal. (DC 29 for a wizard)
A Lv 8 wizard, with Int 20, a headband of Int +4 (a must) and an amulet of +5 spellcraft for 1,250g can craft items up to DC 34 with a take 10, enough to make that, something that normaly would require a 11th lvl cleric or druid, AND, since it's "paying" the +5 on DC to eliminate the Heal requirement, he won't have to reserve a 6th level slot every day for the item, during the creation process.
A weapon has to have a minimum of +1 enhancement bonus before you can apply special properties. So, this has to be a +1 disrupting weapon (which costs as much as a +3 weapon).
The price for this weapon (I assume a quarterstaff since it costs jack) would be 18,000 gp (+300 gp to buy a masterwork quarterstaff but I will handwave this).
This wizard needs to sink 9,000 gp in materials for this +1 disrupting weapon, but maybe he makes it for an ally and so money is not his issue - except it is, because of the time it takes to craft the magic item.
The price for the weapon would be 18,000 gp (even if the wizard crafts it with 9,000 gp) So it will take 18 days (assuming 8 hour work days).
Many people forget that this stuff does not happen in white rooms. 18 days can be a lot of time. Also, the circumstances may make it difficult.
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours
each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth
of work.
This means, while adventuring, the crafting process will need the quadruple time - for this item 72 days. And that is only, if the wizard can spare 4 hours per day.
So, if there is no downtime, things take much longer. And while adventuring for 72 days, the wizard could already have gained enough XP to actually be Level 11.@Casterlevel: Well, it is clear, that a crafter can create items with a casterlevel higher than his own. But that does by no means mean that he can choose it freely. The casterlevel is used for dispelling, identification via spellcraft (DC = 15+CL) and as a bonus to saving throws the weapon makes.
At best case, this means, a crafter can make a CL 15 item while he is, let's say CL 8, and the item is actually a CL 15 item. But I would argue, that this crafter may circumvent the need for CL 15, but cannot really create an item with a CL higher than his own and the item would be a CL 8 item rather than a CL 15 one. The rules state that you can create an item at a lower caster level, but nowhere indicates that you can make them at a higher CL.
This item would be easier to dispel and would have worse save bonuses. On the plus side, it would be easier to analyze it with spellcraft too.
That is at least what I take away from my reading of the rules.
Wealth isn't a a good way to control that.
The first problem is that player characters can pool their money to craft items that will change the balance of the encounters.
The second, and for me, more important problem, is one of setting believability. Why rich reign don't have an abundance of useful magic items? An example I have often made is using Craft wondrous items to make a statue of the local hero that enchant the weapons and armors you place on its pedestal with greater magic weapon and magical vestment at CL 20 an unlimited number of times in a day. Place it in the local garrison courtyard and have your troop use it before entering service. You troops will have +5 weapons, armor and shield for 20 hours.
Costly? Not really for a government. 600.000 gp at most. 150 BP or the equivalent of 2.000 masterwork weapons.
Time and circumstances. It takes 600 days to craft this and it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
But let's craft an adventure:
Spies have reported that Cheliax has spent many ressources on a task to create a magic statue that bolsters the weapons and armor of everyone that lays down his gear at the feat of this Thrune Lord statue. After more than a year, the crafting process is nearly at an end and the surrounding countries fear, that this is not made for guard duty, but invasion.
The party is hired to infiltrate the location, assasinate the crafter and destroy the not yet finished statue.
Or, if it is already completed:
The Crusaders of Vigil finally revealed their latest trump card against the evil of Virlich: The Statue of Saint Iomede will give the Paladins an edge by bolstering their weapons and armor if Vigil is attacked.
Unfortunately, this was not done exactly in secret and spies or divination spells took this information to their dark masters. Earth elementals, an evil party with teleportation magic or the wish spell (the material component is quite cheap in comparison to the crafting cost) can steal this statue. And guess who has the edge now without pooling ressources and putting a wizard to crafting for over a year...
Believability? In a game where dragons exist and a 175lb guy can carry hundreds (if not thousands) of pounds and still swim? But economics, something not even part of the game, is what breaks things for you?
Frankly, the economics are broken to begin with. Adventurers have always been able to acquire more wealth than many small nations and yet the economics element has always been handwaived. If we actually ran this game according to real economic rules then the economies of an entire region would be wrecked by the wealth that adventurers pull out of a dungeon.
Come up with some meta reason and go with it if it makes you happy. This game has never been about economics and will never ever be able to be about economics.
Regarding the 'pooling wealth' wealth issue, that was addressed in Ultimate Campaign. Regardless of how you choose to handle it a crafting feat can only get you an effective wealth bump of +25%. Doesn't matter if all your buddies give you wealth, you cannot craft for them because of the +25% WBL limit.
If you choose to ignore that because it is a 'suggestion' rather than 'a rule' that is up to you. But that is what the Devs came up with to handle the very point you just made.