I agree - at the least, it's worth a sidebar. I think the problems with immunity crop up more in high-level play, but why not support that, too?
I also use a house rule that Freedom of Movement grants a +20 on grapple checks to avoid being grappled.
I also don't play with a 1 being an an autofailure and 20 being an autosuccess - instead, 1s count as -10 and 20s count as 30. For attacks, this generally works out to autofailure/autosuccess, but a kobold isn't going to hit an ancient dragon, even on a 20. For skill checks, I find this helps me quantify the level of success or failure - a 20 on a tracking check for Joe City, 1st level fighter is different than a 20 from Deerhugger the 15th level druid.
Some immunities already have been addressed, but I think the argument in the link goes a little too far. I have never seen attacks of opportunity as speeding up gameplay, and it's a little weird that someone who specializes in hand to hand fighting would provoke an AOO every time they go to hit you with a first... when someone with a spiked gauntlet or dagger wouldn't.
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Absolutes do tend to break encounters. It can turn high level play into glorified rock/paper/scissors. The example I encountered personally was with my holy liberator. At the end of a series of LG mods we encountered the big bad guy - a high level mindbender. I was immune to everything he could do to me and I made him go splat in short order.
What should have been a dramatic final battle turned into a longwinded bit of boxed text and then splat - game over.
Some immunities already have been addressed, but I think the argument in the link goes a little too far. I have never seen attacks of opportunity as speeding up gameplay, and it's a little weird that someone who specializes in hand to hand fighting would provoke an AOO every time they go to hit you with a first... when someone with a spiked gauntlet or dagger wouldn't.
I think you may have misread the argument in the link - unarmed combat is highlighted as an absolute that makes sense to keep because it speeds up gameplay.
For example, you could make the DC of concentration checks dependent on the BAB of the threatening monster - or just decide that high-level magery is already sufficiently complex, and accept that archmages will always be able to cast defensively - even let them take 10 and skip the roll.
I agree for the most part. There should be as little absolutes in the game as possible.
I'm not sure about energy immunities (though they really can be aggravating), but stuff like the flat 10% to stabilise when you lie there bleeding isn't my idea of a good time.
Let's see what they can come up with.
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Heh. I just posted that I would like to see evasion disappear in the Save or Die thread, then I noticed this thread.
I will repeat it here: I agree. Absolutes need to take a hike.
One thing I discussed with another person was changing heroe's feast to reduce the poison and fear immunity. Just having a cleric with that spell sucks at least 1 point off the CR of any CR 10+ creature with a poison or fear effect.
A CR 50 dragon flies overhead, and you are swimming in Midgard Serpent drool, but you had a hearty breakfast of Cleric Kibble (R), so you just sneer and keep going.
Devil's Advocate time:
Should Fire elementals be conceivably vulnerable to fire, if you can muster enough of it? If I can muster a kajillion points of fire damage, should that affect a fire elemental?
I'd say elementals should fall into the category of "truly absolute". (Now im picturing a vodka bottle with swirly liquid eyes glaring out that has a label saying "Absolut Elemental")
A fire elemental is made of flame. It is heat personified. Fire/heat damage can't affect it any more than squirting a pond with a hose. If anything, I'd say the elementals should benefit from a healing effect when exposed to their elements.
This brings up an intersting quirk in D&D logic. Fire, Acid, Electricity, Cold = Fire, Earth, Air, Water. D&D needs to realign the elemental damage to actual elements. Get some earth, water, and air attack spells in there.
But yeah. Fire elementals play in stars. Supernova's are a sunny day at the beach for them. Pyro McGee the fire mage is just an irritating little meatsack who makes the intolerable existance of non-fire even worse by giving off breif flickering bursts of delicious heat.
To summarize: A few absolutes do and should exist. But a good many should be pruned, cut, or torn out by the roots.
Like undead and crits: give incorporeals immunity. Give others fortification. Vamps get light fort: they still use their brains, and their hearts (the 2 spots most combat trainers tell you to go for!). Zombies get medium (brains still matter. braiiiiinnnsss!). Give skeletons either full or near full, depending on your taste. I see skeletons as being done if their head is taken off, but thats just me thematically.
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A high resistance to fire would already simulate the elemental's adaptation to their home plane. However, just like the Prime Material has some locales that are more caustic and hostile than others, the Plane of Fire could have some hotspots that even most elementals avoid. If you are going for a purists arguement though (elementals = pure form of the element) then maybe a few immunities should stay. There's always Hellfire damage to fall back on.
Devil's Advocate time:
Should Fire elementals be conceivably vulnerable to fire, if you can muster enough of it? If I can muster a kajillion points of fire damage, should that affect a fire elemental?
I think the key here is the creatures type, any thing with the fire sub type should still be immune to fire.
But other creatures, mainly outsiders, should they be immune to certain things?
I don't see immunities to energy types as a problem, it makes those knowledge checks very useful.
I have no problem with immunities, but it is interesting to see what players think?
One of the things that causes my group to lose interest at high levels is the spells that give perfect immunity. High-level PCs can generally be (and ours always were) immune to enchantment, poison, and disease, often also to death magic and illusion. This makes many interesting-sounding monsters quite dull, especially since enemies with no knowledge of the PCs may waste actions trying these useless abilities.
The designers seem to respond by jacking up DCs until, if you *don't* have immunity, you're toast. This forces the PCs to always have the immunity, as well as contributing to the 15-minute workday. The result, in our hands, is boredom at high levels.
I don't have a good solution. It's hard, mechanically, to have a resistance to enchantment (though the double-save mechanic which appears a few places in 3.5 might qualify).
Mary
I agree that perfect immunities get really annoying, but there are situations where they are appropriate. Really, I think that most Outsiders are a good example of "appropriate to have immunity to various ills". Why should a creature from beyond this world be discomfited because you dropped some cyanide in his drink? He's physically more alien to you than an aboleth... his physical construction could be incredibly-dense twinkie-matter, for all that you know.
However, that raises the issue of "If a demon has it, why can't I emulate it with a spell?" And that's when we get into the downward spiral.
I'd prefer to see more things like what was done with Identify. The low-level spells are bonuses to do things. The high-level spells may be perfect immunities. The mid-level spells are either super-huge bonuses or imperfect immunities (e.g. Lesser Globe of Invulnerability).
I believe that elementals really should get the immunity. Something that is literally made of fire should be immune to fire. What would fire do to it? Burn it? It's fire incarnate.
I could see them reduce the immunities out there (demons are no longer immune to lightning, devils no longer immune to fire), but the elemental type should retain the immunities.
In fact, every elemental should have a subtype (fire, water, and so on), and immunity to everything based on its subtype.
Conversely, something that controls the element in question in some way should have control over elementals: You can't fireball that fire elemental, but you can control flame it.
I agree that perfect immunities get really annoying, but there are situations where they are appropriate. Really, I think that most Outsiders are a good example of "appropriate to have immunity to various ills". Why should a creature from beyond this world be discomfited because you dropped some cyanide in his drink?
But if a demon gets bitten by the serpent avatar of Set, his arm should start puffing up like nobody's business.
How about "outsiders ignore poisons with a DC less than (15 + their hit dice)"? 20+hit dice? That does increase bookkeeping, though.
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I'd say elementals should fall into the category of "truly absolute". (Now im picturing a vodka bottle with swirly liquid eyes glaring out that has a label saying "Absolut Elemental")
A fire elemental is made of flame. It is heat personified. Fire/heat damage can't affect it any more than squirting a pond with a hose. If anything, I'd say the elementals should benefit from a healing effect when exposed to their elements.
This brings up an intersting quirk in D&D logic. Fire, Acid, Electricity, Cold = Fire, Earth, Air, Water. D&D needs to realign the elemental damage to actual elements. Get some earth, water, and air attack spells in there.
But yeah. Fire elementals play in stars. Supernova's are a sunny day at the beach for them. Pyro McGee the fire mage is just an irritating little meatsack who makes the intolerable existance of non-fire even worse by giving off breif flickering bursts of delicious heat.
To summarize: A few absolutes do and should exist. But a good many should be pruned, cut, or torn out by the roots.
Like undead and crits: give incorporeals immunity. Give others fortification. Vamps get light fort: they still use their brains, and their hearts (the 2 spots most combat trainers tell you to go for!). Zombies get medium (brains still matter. braiiiiinnnsss!). Give skeletons either full or near full, depending on your taste. I see skeletons as being done if their head is taken off, but thats just me thematically.
I wholly agree.
Elementals should keep their immunity. Higher end outsiders (demons, devils, etc.) should get some awesomely high resistances in lieu of their immunities.Regarding the element/energy paradox, Arcana Unearthed has an intersting way of handling the matter, distinguishing between elemental power source (fire, water, air, earth) and energy power source (fire, electricity, acid, cold, sonic, force) - descriptors that are both intrinsic to the spell or derived from spell templates (which are themselves applied through metamagic feats).
Yes, you could work up a spell that has both the fire element and the fire energy descriptors.
Also, interesting take regarding that pesky crit immunity. A logical approach that keeps stuff like sneak attacks in their due efficiency range.
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Devil's Advocate time:
Should Fire elementals be conceivably vulnerable to fire, if you can muster enough of it? If I can muster a kajillion points of fire damage, should that affect a fire elemental?
Why not? Fight fire with fire, they say. An explosion can blow out a fire, or destroy everything that could be burned in the area, or even suffocate the fire.
I am a meat elemental. Lob an Easter ham at me, do I not bruise?
I am a meat elemental. Lob an Easter ham at me, do I not bruise?
That might just be the funniest thing I've read in years.
I think that your resistance to such damage would depend a great deal on whether you were trying to keep kosher....
Gene P.
Devil's Advocate time:
Should Fire elementals be conceivably vulnerable to fire, if you can muster enough of it? If I can muster a kajillion points of fire damage, should that affect a fire elemental?Why not? Fight fire with fire, they say. An explosion can blow out a fire, or destroy everything that could be burned in the area, or even suffocate the fire.
I am a meat elemental. Lob an Easter ham at me, do I not bruise?
That's not meat damage. It's bludgeoning damage. Fireballs don't do bludgeoning damage, there's no blast wave.
I thought about the meat elemental thing, but merely touching meat won't harm you. And that's why fire should not harm fire elementals. You could, of course, rewrite the spells to have a blast wave, and blow things (and people) around and all that.
Oh, and technically, you're a meat-and-blood-and-bone-and-other-things elemental. Not really an elemental, even if meat was an element in any elemental system I've ever heard. You're at best a paraelemental.
The human body consists of an average of around 61.8% water, so I would say we are water elementals if you had to classify us :-)
So of course that bludgeoning ham is going to hurt.
I don't know. I can see a Fire Giant taking a dip in an evening Lava bath, and that's up to 120 points of fire damage there. Same goes for red dragons and the like.
If you can point me to non-epic spells/effects that can exceed 120 points, I'll consider dropping immunity. Until then, I don't see why it should be reduced.
I don't know. I can see a Fire Giant taking a dip in an evening Lava bath, and that's up to 120 points of fire damage there. Same goes for red dragons and the like.
If you can point me to non-epic spells/effects that can exceed 120 points, I'll consider dropping immunity. Until then, I don't see why it should be reduced. [/QUOTE
A wizard with 9th level slots and energy admixture metamagic feat could cast a CONE OF COLD (ENERGY ADMIXTURE: COLD)that deals 30d6 of cold damage for a possible (but not likely) 180pts of damage.
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I see some of the absolutes as just easier to write..."immune to fire damage" versus "has a 90 damage resistance to fire damage." Personally, I don't care if a fire giant is immune to fire damage...if they fall into the heart of a star they're dead. If someone wants to argue the point I'd have to wonder what their problem was. Just because its written one way doesn't mean that in extreme cases that it must be played that way.
Thanks,
Scott
A wizard with 9th level slots and energy admixture metamagic feat could cast a CONE OF COLD (ENERGY ADMIXTURE: COLD)that deals 30d6 of cold damage for a possible (but not likely) 180pts of damage.I don't know. I can see a Fire Giant taking a dip in an evening Lava bath, and that's up to 120 points of fire damage there. Same goes for red dragons and the like.
If you can point me to non-epic spells/effects that can exceed 120 points, I'll consider dropping immunity. Until then, I don't see why it should be reduced.
Unfortunately, that'd qualify as an epic spell - a 12th level spell to be exact. (Epic is so horribly broken anyway, so I wouldn't bother counting it towards anything)
Personally, I don't care if a fire giant is immune to fire damage...if they fall into the heart of a star they're dead.
Well, d'uh! There's no oxigen and very high preasure. That will kill him. Find a star with low pressure and an atmosphere and the giant will be fine! ;-P
Unfortunately, that'd qualify as an epic spell - a 12th level spell to be exact. (Epic is so horribly broken anyway, so I wouldn't bother counting it towards anything)
A wizard with 9th level slots and energy admixture metamagic feat could cast a CONE OF COLD (ENERGY ADMIXTURE: COLD)that deals 30d6 of cold damage for a possible (but not likely) 180pts of damage.
No, the cone is 5th-level, admixture adds 4 levels, so we just need one 9th-level slot and a non-epic feat.
Of course, this doesn't help with the fire immunity at all ;-) (and against that giant, who is vulnerable to cold, it would be a whopping 360 points of damage in the best/worst case.)
I agree that perfect immunities get really annoying, but there are situations where they are appropriate. Really, I think that most Outsiders are a good example of "appropriate to have immunity to various ills". Why should a creature from beyond this world be discomfited because you dropped some cyanide in his drink? He's physically more alien to you than an aboleth... his physical construction could be incredibly-dense twinkie-matter, for all that you know.
Sure... but maybe swallowing a gnat would turn out to be deadly! ;)
I believe that there are too many absolutes... however, IMHO, some absolutes should just stay simply because it makes life less complicated... and really if you facing something immmune to say fire yur party's wizard is probably high enough to know spells with other energy descriptors. If he happens to be a pyromaniac and only uses fire spells that doesn't mean that the creature immune to fire is intristically wrong...
One easy solution I see is the lava mechanic. Immersion is 20d6, to represent the ridiculously fatal consequence for skinny dipping in magma. Fire elementals, fire giants, and red dragons have over the years been rightly described as being perfectly comfortable with that level of heat.
But I am of the opinion that the fire elemental will be the only one of that trio comfortable with a frolic on the surface of the sun.
So if the problem is that reducing the dragon and giants absolutes means they can't lava bathe anymore, make the lava less retardedly damaging. Consider this, by the rules, lava burns down stone castle walls in short periods of time. But in reality, that kind of mass would diffuse the heat and what little stone would melt would later be replaced by the cooled lava.
So maybe reduce lava immersion to 10d6 (top tier fireball). Or, if you prefer your superlethal lava, add a caveat of "creatures without the fire subtype must make a DC 20 fortitude save or be incinerated".
Oh, and a confirmed crit polar ray can easily exceed 120 damage, without any modification at all. Even with core rules and 20th level, it can get even worse. Wiz 15/Archmage5, with the caster level boosting ioun stone, crit, 44d6 cold damage. Potential of 264. That kind of damage should freeze a blue whale solid.
Course, fire is the issue, not cold. So energy sub that puppy and were back on track!
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Devil's Advocate time:
Should Fire elementals be conceivably vulnerable to fire, if you can muster enough of it? If I can muster a kajillion points of fire damage, should that affect a fire elemental?Why not? Fight fire with fire, they say. An explosion can blow out a fire, or destroy everything that could be burned in the area, or even suffocate the fire.
I am a meat elemental. Lob an Easter ham at me, do I not bruise?
Fire Elemental, meet the Meat Elemental.
Feed a small city for months :P
The problem with absolutes isn't that they exist, it's that they're so common. (As previously stated in this thread.) This is also seen in creature type immunities. ALL undead are immune to mind-influencing effects and sneak attacks? They shouldn't be. Zombies are weak-willed, and many undead have specific objects implanted in their body that is the source of their power. (And I don't understand why plants are immune to crits/sneak attack in any circumstances. Plants have vulnerable parts just like animals.)
But there's some circumstances where absolutes really do work.
Hmmm, I'd say rather than nullify the absolute, make exceptions in those extreme cases. The god of diseases coughs on you, you'll be making that fortitude save, but some times (and in some modules) those low level absolute effects are required for survivals sake. I do agree that there are too many and I love Sean K. Reynolds solution for knock (though he describes it as 10+ caster level to a max of 10 for +20 at level 10 when he later describes it as 10 + 1/2 caster level. I'd consider the latter a touch *too* weak and stick with 10 + Caster level capped at 10).
Still, there's one thing that irks me, when you get to the higher levels I think you should have those absolutes. 18th level Paladin? Yes, you should stand bravely in before an epic level elder dragon, I'd say if you made it to 18th level you should be wise enough to exercise common sense and show proper humility but not shaking in your boots. That's the whole Paladin Schtick. You are a chosing frickin' warrior of your god, who even if they're a demi-god should be able to lay the smack down on said dragon. Not that they would but chances are if you're 18th level and you're facing a CR27 Elder Wyrm you're not going to enter into battle with it unless you do something stupid at which point your god would likely say 'well, he had it coming'. Immune to disease? Hell yes. Immune to poison? Definitely. If I'm a player I'm working hard for those immunities, having them turn into mere bonuses (even +10 bonuses) is irksome.
Honestly I don't mind how they nerfed Death Ward, or at least I wouldn't if it was a +10 bonus against death spells and effects. It kind of makes sense as that's it's purposes. Sure it's not an immunity but it's better than a +4. I'd boost it to +5 and drop it to 3rd level if anything.
Then again I'm not big on nerfing anyway. Sometimes it's necessary (i.e. 3.0 haste) other times it's rediculous (i.e. 3.0 Spell Focus). I think most times wizards (or even PRPG) has nerfed something it's been something that (at least in my opinion) wasn't needed. Power Attack? I'll keep it at 3.5's thing. Maybe (emphasis on maybe) give it a +8 or +10 cap. Divine Power? I'd say keep it but if it was considered too powerful have a few spells listed as not stacking. Or perhaps use the one presented in PRGP Alpha and make it a 3rd level spell. It's a useable buff spell in that case but not as a 4th level spell. This is all in my not-so-humble-opinion. I'll likely end up houseruling some things when the Beta comes out depending on how things go when they're playtested.
Anyway, I'm done with my rant.