Re: rubuke burst.
"3 evil clerics walk into a bar...
...and kill everyone without rolling once!"
(sorry, couln't resist).
I like the new Turn Undead rules as is and would use them, but given the chance to tweak it some I would:
1) Make it a 40' cone
2) Get rid of the fear aspect
Simply a 40' cone for damage or healing with a save for half. It's easy to use and could be fun tactically.
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On the whole I like the new turn system. I will never again have to crack open a book every time I turn undead.
The problem I see cropping up in this thread several times is the area affect nuking ability it gives rebukers. My suggestion to handle this problem is to let good clerics spend a turn attempt to try and dispell the rebuke attempt.
example.
1) Good cleric is holding initiative, waiting on the evil cleric.
2) Evil cleric rebukes undead.
3) good cleric attempts to dispel the effect by turning undead.
I see several possible outcomes.
1) Both attempts work, cancelling out where they overlap.
2) The two affects are treated as a dispell attempt following the rules for dispell magic.
3) or they just cancel out automatically.
as far as the rest, I like the Cone AOE emanation from the Holy symbol, and I also like the idea of making Healing burst an alternate use of Turn undead.
I would add an orison to the cleric called "Mark Ally". When a cleric channels positive energy anyone marked by this spell is healed. When a cleric channels negative energy anyone marked by this spell is spared the damage.
Would beings killed by a negative energy attack of this sort rise as wights?
I would add an orison to the cleric called "Mark Ally". When a cleric channels positive energy anyone marked by this spell is healed. When a cleric channels negative energy anyone marked by this spell is spared the damage.
Would beings killed by a negative energy attack of this sort rise as wights?
The trouble with "Mark Ally" as you put it, is that it would completly circumvent its original purpose(that being killing undead) as more undead won't be around long enough to "Mark"
In the end, its going to have to be some sort of "On the Fly" AoE or direct trageting.
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I hear a lot of comments but it seems no one has actually play tested it. Just making it a cone would make it far more useful
Rebuking is obviously a problem but I think making the effect a cone would significantly reduce the issue. Also I can see evil clerics going to town against a PC party with this spell, blowing through 3-4 turn uses, bolstering his undead and blasting the PCs. I also think the whole if a cleric heals an undead beyond it's HP mechanism he can command it... seems clunky to me.
I'll see if I can play test it, Maybe I can chase some of my players down for some separate sessions to do this.
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I would have playtested it tonight but I don't have a cleric or person that can use Turn undead in the group. I like the damage idea because it gives back the power to clerics over the undead. Right now, it's a bit powerful on both ends but I think something can be figured out. Just an idea on the matter would be to use the pre-existing turn damage rolls. 2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod. No saves so that way a Good cleric channeling positive energy at 1st level with a Charisma of 10 would do 2d6+1 for 3-13 damage to undead. At later levels, it would look like this at 10th with no stat increase to Charisma, 2d6+10 for 12-22 damage to undead. The game already has some boosts to help these but they are not in the OGL. I don't know if you could do something like them, but they would be the equvilent to a metamagic feat. Maximized turning would do 22 damage at 10th level while an empowered turning would do 18-33 damage at that same level. Empowered maximized turning at that level would do 33. Those are some decent numbers IMO. For those monsters that have Turn Resist, keep it as a DR vs. the Turning. I haven't included rebuke in this but you can easily derive it off this.
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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Perhaps fitting in (on both sides) a number of targets immune to the effects equal to the priest's Wis bonus or something would work well.
I like this idea....it conveys a sense of "control" on the cleric's part. Perhaps a DC roll with a Wis bonus, plus some factor of the level (level/2), with the number the roll exceeds the DC being the number of living targets they can exclude from the effect?
Another option could be to have the cleric's turn/rebuke ability affect a certain number of targets....friend and foe alike. Cleric chooses the targets affected: "You are successful at radiating goodness. You have affected 6 beings." "OK, I focus this energy on the 4 zombies, and my 2 party members."
Sorry, but as it stands, I don't like the turning rules.
The idea was to stop the cleric being used as a healer? He still is, just in a different way. The idea behind cleric is supposed to be a "warrior priest" (and if you disagree with that, then feel free to remove their armour proficency and give them the same BAB and HD as the wizard).
Now, I wouldn't mind if the powers worked this way for say..a god of life or a god of death (since healing and undeath would be in their portfolio). But why would a god of the sea honestly care about undead? Or healing the wounds of some random person near his priests? He wouldn't. In no mythological story regarding religion has the gods ever granted favours to someone who just happened to be near his priest, at least not to my knowledge.
An idea might be to develop a few more common-use items which can heal, and alter turning so that it changes depending on your gods portfolio e.g in the example above, your turning healing water elementals and awuatic creatures and harming fire elementals or creatures with the fire type.
I don't like the "must flee" portion of it. Making undead flee through the dungeon is a needless headache. Which direction do they go? Do they cause other monsters to attack? It's just a hassle.
How about making the 30 radius a sanctuary for the cleric and anyone in it? The thought of slavering undead, hovering 30 feet out waiting to get at you is a lot cooler than undead just running away.
You'd want the cleric to do repeat Turns to continue doing damage. So maybe damage to 30 feet, sanctuary out to 20 or something.
I agree. Chasing after undead is a big wast of time, but picking them off as they wait to enter an area of protection is nice.
As far as the mechanics go, what about a feat or class ability to allow for the healing or damaging effect? This add on effect could be limited to a number of times a day (CHA Mod)?
The new turning mechanic looks decent; I'll have to playtest it to see how it works in play but I like it because it eliminates the need to use a table and so should be speedier in play. That said, I'm not keen on the way the healing mechanic has been worked into it -- not because I dislike the notion of a cleric's gaining extra healing "spells," but because I think the implementation is unnecessarily clunky.
What I'd recommend is twofold. First, decouple the new healing ability from turning, so it's not an added effect on top of the turning. Second, give all clerics the ability to channel their god's power into the Material Plane and use that power in a variety of ways, as suggested by this post above:
Channel Divine Essence
3 + cha/day as a standard action , a cleric can turn himself into a conduit for his deities essence.
For 1 round per level a cleric can direct his deities divine power as a swift action in one of the following ways;
Turning could be one such use of divine power, but healing would be another. I'd recommend having a handful of "generic" uses for divine power (perhaps divided according to alignment) available to all and then add one additional one per domain. This way, clerics would gain some diversity and flexibility. They'd have 3 + Charisma modifier times per day that they could turn undead, heal or inflict wounds (as appropriate), and other effects, including ones specific to their domains. I don't this would be too overpowered and it'd go some way toward addressing a number of concerns relating to clerics.
Let's presume these feats existed:
Divine Breath
Prerequisite: Turn Undead
Benefit: You can channel the power of your god(dess) through your being, releasing it in a 45ft cone. This works like Turn Undead in all other respects.
Divine Arrow
Prerequisite: Turn Undead
Benefit: You let loose a laser of divine energy loose in a 60ft line. This works like Turn Undead in all other respects.
Admittedly these are randomly made as no feat should bring up lasers >.>
They would allow clerics to have more finesse in targeting and those who channel negative energy to not annoy their party too much.
Would these be taken by clerics with the same frequency as druids took Natural Spell?
If so wouldn't that be an issue?
I would add an orison to the cleric called "Mark Ally". When a cleric channels positive energy anyone marked by this spell is healed. When a cleric channels negative energy anyone marked by this spell is spared the damage.
Would beings killed by a negative energy attack of this sort rise as wights?
The trouble with "Mark Ally" as you put it, is that it would completly circumvent its original purpose(that being killing undead) as more undead won't be around long enough to "Mark"
In the end, its going to have to be some sort of "On the Fly" AoE or direct trageting.
I'm not quite following your comment here Kenku. "Mark Ally" would never be cast on undead only on living allies. If you were a good cleric you would cast "Mark Ally" on your living companions and they would be healed when you turned/damaged/destroyed undead. If you were an evil cleric you would cast "Mark Ally" on your living companions who would then not be damaged when you healed/rebuked/commanded undead.
"Mark Ally" would have no effect on undead at all so it would never be an issue. The spell only changes how living beings are effected by the energies you released when you turned or rebuked.
8 HD/level for control seems a bit steep to me, but that's just an initial impression. I'll give it a bit more of a look see.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Why not just tie the turning effects directly to the domain powers? The domains healing, sun, destruction, glory, nobility, protection and repose have “turning” like effects already included (be those curing, repulsion or inflicting), so why have another whole sub-rule to cover what is essentially the implementation of a spell-like ability?
What about something like:
Divine Channelling (Turn or Rebuke Undead)
Drawing upon the power of your deity, you can cause a wave of energy to emanate from you, causing an effect that is tied to the power of your god.
Divine Channelling is a supernatural ability you can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you must be able to present your holy symbol to use this ability.
Channelling Effects
When you Channel, you may use any of the domain powers listed for your level or below. You may choose which creatures in the area are affected, including yourself.
Now domains change slightly, removing references to ‘per day’ and linking them to the Channelling ability.
Domains
Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level. Druids can choose one domain from the following list: air, animal, earth, fire, plant, or water.
Domains grant one ability at first level and a number of other abilities at later levels, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using Divine Channelling. The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier. Domain powers that mimic spells are spell-like abilities, while the others are supernatural.
Examples:
Air Domain
Deities: Gozreh, Shelyn.
Caster
Level Ability
1st Lightning Arc (Su): As a standard action you can unleash an arc of electricity targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The lightning arc deals 1d6 points of electricity damage +1 for every two caster levels you possess.
2nd Obscuring Mist (Sp): You can cast obscuring mist.
4th Gust of Wind (Sp): You can cast gust of wind.
8th Walk on Air (Su): You can walk on air as if it were solid for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level. This ability otherwise functions as air walk.
12th Chain Lightning (Sp): You can cast chain lightning.
16th Control Weather (Sp): You can cast control weather.
20th Elemental Swarm (Sp): You can cast elemental swarm, summoning only air creatures.
Healing Domain
Deities: Irori, Pharasma, Sarenrae.
Caster
Level Ability
1st Rebuke Death (Su): You can touch a creature as a standard action, healing it of 1d4 points of damage plus 1 for every two caster levels you possess. You can only use this ability on a creature that is below 0 hit points. If you touch an undead creature with this effect, it is shaken for a number of rounds equal to your caster level.
2nd Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast cure light wounds.
4th Lesser Restoration (Sp): You can cast lesser restoration.
8th Healer’s Blessing (Su): You can emit a 30-ft. aura of healing for a number of rounds equal to your caster level. You and your allies within this aura gain fast healing equal to 1/4 your caster level as long as they remain in range. This fast healing only applies to damage caused after the aura began.
12th Mass Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast mass cure light wounds.
16th Greater Restoration (Sp): You can cast greater restoration.
20th Mass Heal (Sp): You can cast mass heal.
If you wanted to model turning more historically, just add it to the relevant domain ability list.
If you want more healing, add more cure SLA’s to the relevant domain ability lists.
Turn Resistance is a redundant ability. Replace Turn Resistance with Iron Will (+2 bonus to Will Saves vs positive energy damage, controlling by evil clerics, repulsion by good clerics).
A few things I noticed and questions I have:
Undead creatures within the area are healed a like amount by this wave of negative energy. Hit points above the undead’s total are lost. You can choose whether or not to include yourself in this effect.
Why would the Cleric include himself in the area? Could this be read to mean that the Evil Cleric is healed by the negative energy?
A cleric can command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level.
I'm having a reading comprehension problem with this sentence. Does this mean that an evil cleric can control ANY number of undead as long as each individual undead HD does not exceed the cleric's level OR does it mean the undead's HD are added together for a total that is compared to the Cleric's level?
The reason I ask is because of the Necromancy School Power:
Specialist Bonus: You can control 8 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.
If the total HD a cleric can control is equal to his level, then the Necromancer (Wizard) is the new lord of the undead. They can control 8 times the HD a cleric can.
(Yes, reading is fundamental, but these sentences are wracking my brain)
If the total HD a cleric can control is equal to his level, then the Necromancer (Wizard) is the new lord of the undead. They can control 8 times the HD a cleric can.
AS IT SHOULD BE.I always hated a wizard was never as good necromancer as a cleric now it s as it should be.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm honestly not fond of it as written, only because a rebuking cleric is suddenly a menace to his entire party... ^.^
A rebuking cleric adventuring with a group of players without tomb tainted soul to get healed instead is not wise.
That cleric deserves to hurt his party if his party is dumb enough to not come to school with pen and paper (the proper feat.)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm honestly not fond of it as written, only because a rebuking cleric is suddenly a menace to his entire party... ^.^A rebuking cleric adventuring with a group of players without tomb tainted soul to get healed instead is not wise.
That cleric deserves to hurt his party if his party is dumb enough to not come to school with pen and paper (the proper feat.)
It never made sense to me that a Wizard was "as good" a necromancer as a Cleric was. Now they go and make Wizards better than Clerics as a necromancer?
That rule (8 HD per level) is one I really don't care for right now.
As for turning, I love the current rules for turning in alpha rules.
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I like the new turning rules.
The only thing I would like to see added is a series of feats supporting it.
examples:
feat to hit only allies with the healing
altering the area or enlarging area
boosting the damage/healing -empower, maximize
creating a bolt for increased effect (mini heal/harm) with ranged touch to hit
I like the new system, but it doesn't fix a bad problem with the cleric; in fact, it makes it worse.
When I get to play, not GM, I like to play clerics. I like to play the "helps people to die peacefully" cleric of Wee Jas. The problem, though, is that, because of my deity, I channel negative energy. This means that I rebuke undead and convert spells to Inflict.
This is horrible for a PC class. One of the primary roles (possibly the primary role of the cleric is to heal the party. As an evil cleric or, worse, a neutral cleric of a death god, I can't do that well. Trying to design in a positive/negative energy distinction just makes the class more restrictive because, really, you can't effectively play a negative energy cleric.
So, here's my suggestion. Do one of the following:
1) Let all clerics channel both kinds of energy. Let them heal or harm both undead and living creatures. Generally, good clerics won't harm the living or heal the undead, but they have the option to do the other. More importantly, evil clerics can fight undead effectively and serve as the party healer.
2) My preferred option, all clerics can heal the living and harm the undead. Nothing more, nothing less. Feats could expand the options, as could Domains. The Undead or Death domains, for example, could allow you to heal the undead and/or harm the living.
In either case, making a set number of targets would make the power work better, as would making any fear effect simply cause undead to cower or retreat to 30 ft.
I agree with the others that:
Feats to selectively include or exclude allies in the blast would be EXTREMELY attractive.
But I'm loving the tactical implications of the clerical "nuclear blast" and how that would get used. Very exciting stuff.
Also, a question: Say the party (including a good cleric) faces off against a group with an evil cleric, and there are undead present. For example, the party has invaded a temple of Orcus ala Tomb of Abysthor or something like that.
Evil cleric rebukes undead in the area and now controls them. Next round, good cleric blasts them and half fail their fear save. Is there now a contest of wills at play here or will the undead remain feared? As it reads now, it doesn't say. The cleric is afraid, but the evil cleric apparently still controls it.
Personally, the whole "rebuke undead" thing is a HUGE freaking headache. I had a neutral cleric of Kelemvor in a game a few campaigns ago and he was very fond of rebuking undead and then having them tag along with him through the dungeon having his own personal little army.
Might be more trouble than it's worth, but I'd like to see some sort of mechanic where the evil cleric has to trade something in exchange for the mental activity of retaining an undead army. Like half the number of spell slots in exchange for HD of undead or something like that.
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I like the new turning rules.
The only thing I would like to see added is a series of feats supporting it.
examples:
feat to hit only allies with the healing
altering the area or enlarging area
boosting the damage/healing -empower, maximize
creating a bolt for increased effect (mini heal/harm) with ranged touch to hit
I have thought about and I think I agree with this line of thought. I like the healing/damage so long as the cleric can shape it later on.
I really like Quijenoth's suggestions. They seem to take into a account many of the problems outlined by other posters. As a DM most of the time, fleeing undead are a pain in the backside. For me, they're essentially out of play, as good as destroyed. I'm also not a fan of clerics not only being able to spontaneously cast heal/harm spells, but also gaining a number heal/harm bursts (whether undead are actually present or not) daily equal to 3+ Cha + extra turning (which every cleric/paladin will now be taking). Quijenoth's system of picking and choosing the effect of your turn ability seems the most fair and balance.