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Please NO PSIONICS!!!
I concur. Psionics just don't fit in well, in my opinion.
Perhaps it is just because of the ad hoc nature of their rules, however... perhaps if they were re-imagined in from the start and had a flavor and mechanics that clearly separate them from other magical sources/abilities it could be cool
But I really don't like a big section of relabeled spells called "psionics"... plus it has very little (or NO) basis in high fantasy
The last part is blatantly untrue - psionics (aka mind magic) has a very thourough basis in classical and modern fantasy of all forms. Please, take the time to read through the thread. Otherwise the Psionic forums over at Gleemax has some excellent material.
But I would concur on not copying spells - having powers with the XXX, Psionic title feels weak.
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In perfect honesty, I hope that they keep the concept of psionics without attaching themselves to the current rules for psionics. I really don't care for the point-based classes, since they don't jibe with anything else in D&D. That's what's so jarring about them, for the most part. I would rather see Paizo do their own version of psionics, maybe something more like the warlock mixed with current psion. That is, a class with a small number of at-will abilities chosen from a list and some class features that are dependent on choices made at first level.
Jeremy Puckett
You know Psionics deserved at least a nod when a Thread dedicated to it has one of the highest post counts on your board.
+1 for Psionics in PF 3.75
Another vote for Psionics. Open your minds people!
I would totally dig a Pathfinder Psionics book. I agree that they shouldn't be in the PR-RPG core book (would take up too much space), but I would totally love an extra book complete with psions and wilders and soulknives and psychic warriors.
Make it happen!
Make it happen!
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Alright, I have to say something about what I keep seeing on these boards. they all seem to float around the phrase "high fantasy". I really get annoyed by the use of that phrase, especially when it comes to roleplaying games. Folks, the great majority of people do not play "high fantasy" even if they think they do. High fantasy is a lot more than elves and dwarves and furry footed short people. Quit misusing it.
As for Psionics, I'm all for it. As a suplement. Not in the core book. Is it "High Fantasy"? No, but it's fun. and that is what a roleplaying game is ultimately about, having fun.
Jason, Eric, Lisa, and whoever else is looking into these boards from Paizo; I apologize for partially threadjacking this board and it may sound a bit like a flame, but I assure you it's not meant to. I just really get tired of the misuse of words in general.
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There will be psionics in Pathfinder. We've got races using them living underground in the Darklands, across the sea in Vudra, and on other planets. I doubt you'll see them included in the base rules though... unless feedback from the open playtest over then next year and a half convinces us otherwise, of course!
Of course, one irony about this is that most people will probably be playtesting PRPG exclusively. So, having people give feedback about psionics, which is not included in PRPG, is unlikely. Still, I could be wrong.
As for my vote - put psionics in the PRPG. Let's make it central. (Of course, I'd also vote to put OA material in there, too.)
And of course, I also want a PRPG Modern Rulebook, too.
I'm guessing that no matter how popular the demand for psionics would be, there's no plan for it in Alpha 3 or Beta, etc, and it's not really in the Gazatteer beyond only a tiny hint here and there, and I'm doubting it'll then be in the Hardbound campaign setting. They've been straight to us in the beginning that there's just no one there with love for psionics. What is printed in the gazatteer is no more in depth than what is posted in the messageboards from the weekly chatroom discussions (i.e. yes there are two planets, here are their names, and psionics might originate from them, done, finished).
My main concern is that if it will be present in the Second Darkness AP, where will the crunch be presented to players who also want to play psionicists? Will psionics be limited to, say, how they presented the Harrow system in the first CotCT AP, or will there be a supplement separate from the rest, or will it otherwise be anywhere else?
On the other hand, I'm primarily passionate about psionics because I find it enjoyable, and I don't see it personally as "sci-fi." I also have thoroughly enjoyed all of the Pathfinder adventures thus far despite the lack of psionic support. As I've mentioned previously, and as other posters have mentioned, I think a lot of the feeling behind psionics can be improved if the semantics better suited the world of Golarion and felt more "fantasy" to more players. I'd be down with any name changes if it meant seeing it come to light.
Alright, I have to say something about what I keep seeing on these boards. they all seem to float around the phrase "high fantasy". I really get annoyed by the use of that phrase, especially when it comes to roleplaying games. Folks, the great majority of people do not play "high fantasy" even if they think they do. High fantasy is a lot more than elves and dwarves and furry footed short people. Quit misusing it.
Ok, I'll bite. Please explain to us what "high fantasy" is, and how we've all been misusing it. So as to not come off as baiting you, I'll give what my humble definitions would be:
low fantasy: not a lot of magic in the world; parts of LOTR would fit in w/ this, or Iron Kingdoms (or is it Iron Heroes?);
high fantasy: lots of magic, including lots of powerful magic; like the Forgotten Realms setting.
How'd I do?
More on topic for this thread, I thought the argument was more that psionics wasn't fantasy, but too sci-fi in feel for most people. An argument that's been refuted, at least in part, though some people will never buy it...
and I'm doubting it'll then be in the Hardbound campaign setting
Mike McArtor has said there will actually be a spread concerning psionics in the HB campaign setting.
Realistically, it doesn't feel like there will be psionics in the core book, but I don't thnk it's down for the count by any stretch. They just have to be sold on the need, and I think that is really happening... but it's a process.
- The topic never dies
- In RPG Superstar the Judges griped at all the psionic entries, but then had to relent because those were the one people voted for..
- People keep asking for it in Golarion
I believe the pressure to see it as a supplemental, at least, has to remain. Then, after it's published, the Editors need to see it being used, and asked after.. in the form of adventure requests, or at least in mainstream encounters that apply particularly well to psionics.
That's how you work about the change, and you and I can't do it alone, it has to be a group effort.
Funny that some people say psionics don't belong in D&D yet then allow "mind reading" powers via magic isn't it? Hypocrits. If you say psionics shouldn't be allowed in D&D then you better get off your highhorse and take out any magical powers that work like a psionic power would.
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Psionics has always been an oddball child mostly left in the corner even when it first reared it's head in AD+D First Edition. Gary Gygax referred to it as "The greatest mistake I ever made."
Einstein referred to his addition of the Cosmological Constant to his General Theory of Relativity as "the biggest blunder of his life." However, observations made in the 1990s of Type Ia supernovae gave scientist renewed interest in the Cosmological Constant.
In that same way, psionics fans have turned what Gygax thought was his "greatest mistake" into something wonderful.
I don't see a major need for psionics to be part of the core rules, none of the Pathfinder modules that I know about it have it as an essential requirement, and we've got enough new stuff in the core classes and rules to wait until the dust settles off of Final Release.
Psionics can wait until after Pathfinder 1.0 has been out for a year or so.
For those desperate to have it, USING the SRD rules will be a good test of Pathfinder's "backwards compatibility".
Why don't we make monks, gnomes and bards wait instead... Oh, wait--that'd be another RPG. There is sufficient interest in the Pathfinder community to justify inclusion of a small amount of psionics material (like the soulknife, plus psionic feats) in the core book and to begin immediate work on psionics rules to ensure they meet the new standards of the game.
Creative Director
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My problem with psionics isn't the flavor or backstory. I actually quite LIKE psionics, and many of my favorite monsters in the game have a strong tradition with psionics. The problem isn't the flavor... it's the fact that psionics have a STRONG tradition of being overpowered, in EVERY edition of the game. Designers always try too hard to make them their own subsystem, make them their own set of rules, and in so doing end up with stuff that's just too strong. Every 3rd Edition game I've been in that's incorporated psionics (and yes, I've been in more than one...) has resulted in the psionic character being very overpowered. If EVERY character in the game was psionic... that wouldn't be a problem, I suspect.
As a result... the majority of the players I've seen play psionic characters also happen to be characters who enjoy the "arms-race" aspect of D&D; of outdoing the other characters, so psionics have kind of left a sour taste in my mouth as a result.
Psionics have to either be incorporated into a game from the start (and the ship's sailed there, honestly; even for the Pathfinder RPG, which is NOT a new game, only a revision to an existing one), or they have to be sculpted to fit with the existing game.
We DO have psionics in Golarion. There WILL be creatures like intellect devourers showing up sooner than later, and they'll have psionic powers. But we're still mulling over things like psionic characters and the psionic classes. Personally, I think the main problem lies in the psionic point mechanic. I'd MUCH rather see a psionic class that uses a mechanic more like spell-like abilities to model the powers, but I'm pretty sure that would rile up the psionics fans, even if the in-game flavor was Exactly the Same.
If that riles them up because it robs them of a chance to abuse the point-based system, though, I don't have much sympathy.
THAT ALL SAID: There's nothing in Pathfinder that explicitly excludes psionics. That'd be a poor design choice indeed!
Again, I vote NO PSIONICS!
My Top 10 reasons:
10) Psionics is sci-fi, not fantasy
9) D&D already has 2 magic systems - arcane & divine. What's the point in having a third?
8) Psionics & Arcane magic are conceptually redundant, using the power & discipline of the mind to affect one's surroundings or self.
7) Since psionics can also heal, why play a cleric?
6) Psionics overlaps both Arcane & Divine magic.
5) Psionics are OVERPOWERED compared to the other classes, and always have been.
4) Since the psionic "mana system" is so much better & versatile than vancian magic, why not just incorporate that system into the core classes?
3) Psionics add nothing, except a mana system mechanic. Force screen = Shield. Inertail Armor = Mage Armor. Difference = 0.
2) The Psychic Warrior is simply a nice template for designing the needed Warrior-Mage to D&D! The Soul Knife can easily be redefined as a magical class - See? Almost no more mods required other than that single statement.
1) Lo! For psionics have long been a symptom of passive-aggressive munchkinism. A terrible malady that has no cure! (Even psionics can't help!) If a doctor unable to understand the cause, he is forced to treat the symptom! ;^D
If ya gotta have it. Please . . . put it in its own book.
- FM
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Creative Director
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This is a very interesting list... and as someone who likes psionics but not the way they've been dealt with rules-wise... here's how I would address the concerns of your list.
10) Psionics is sci-fi, not fantasy
I disagree; there's been plenty of mind-control type stuff in fantasy before; you can actually play most of the monk's abilities off as a form of psionics, for example. You can even say that the sorcerer's inborn magical ability is psionics. And even then... there IS a pretty large dose of sci-fi in the game already, and certainly in Golarion there's elements of science fiction. Excluding ideas because they're more commonly seen in science fiction is unnecessarily limiting (but at the same point... sci-fi elements MUST fit the themes of Golarion before they get in there!).
9) D&D already has 2 magic systems - arcane & divine. What's the point in having a third?
Arcane and divine spells are separated only by flavor. The basic mechanics work the same. There should be a way to emulate psionics using the same types of rules... but if that results in estranging fans of psionics, then it probably shouldn't be done anyway.
8) Psionics & Arcane magic are conceptually redundant, using the power & discipline of the mind to affect one's surroundings or self.
Again, I see this more as a flavor issue. You can accomplish great things by finding and presenting the right flavor.
7) Since psionics can also heal, why play a cleric?
Bards can also heal, So can paladins and rangers. Lifting the healing duty from the cleric is a good thing, especially since most fans of the cleric, I believe, are attracted to the class for more reasons other than the fact that they can heal. You can play the cleric to play the holy crusader, the devout missionary, or any number of reasons that make healing incidental.
6) Psionics overlaps both Arcane & Divine magic.
You kind of already said this in #8 above. But since Arcane & Divine magic already have overlaps... I don't see this really as a problem.
5) Psionics are OVERPOWERED compared to the other classes, and always have been.
Agreed. And this would be the area I'd like to see fixed before we officially start having characters with psionic character classes appear in Pathfinder products, at least. Monsters with psi-like abilities are, mechanics-wise, identical to those with spell-like abilities; they just have different flavor. You can expect some of those kinds of critters appearing soon enough.
4) Since the psionic "mana system" is so much better & versatile than vancian magic, why not just incorporate that system into the core classes?
I personally much prefer the Vancian system over a point system. A good question to ask fans of psionics: Would you still be a fan if the point system went away? Are you a fan of the flavor of psionics or the current point-based mechanics? Myself... I'm a fan of the flavor, and not so much a fan of the mechanics.
3) Psionics add nothing, except a mana system mechanic. Force screen = Shield. Inertail Armor = Mage Armor. Difference = 0.
This is kind of the same thing you said earlier. For effects that are identical, I think that squaring the names so they match would be good. "Shield" is a good enough name, but force screen and inertial armor feel too scientific and should probably change in a fantastic setting. Likewise, "mage armor" is too limiting to the arcane school... it's as weird if you give this spell to a divine caster as it is giving it to a psion.
2) The Psychic Warrior is simply a nice template for designing the needed Warrior-Mage to D&D! The Soul Knife can easily be redefined as a magical class - See? Almost no more mods required other than that single statement.
These are flavor changes, really. You can do the same thing to every psionic class to make it fit better into the theme of a world like Golarion. And if, as we are planning, you make psionics the magic of exotic lands... it's actually a benefit if the names are different (this might actually supersede my reply to #3 above...)
1) Lo! For psionics have long been a symptom of passive-aggressive munchkinism. A terrible malady that has no cure! (Even psionics can't help!) If a doctor unable to understand the cause, he is forced to treat the symptom!
Passive-aggressive munchkinism! Ha! Great term! It does bring up a good point, one I mention above, and one that's worth repeating.
If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game? I would. But I'm not sure that sentiment would be shared by many fans of psionics.
The problem isn't the flavor... it's the fact that psionics have a STRONG tradition of being overpowered, in EVERY edition of the game.(SNIP) Every 3rd Edition game I've been in that's incorporated psionics (and yes, I've been in more than one...) has resulted in the psionic character being very overpowered.
We've not had a problem with the 3.5 stuff, yes 3.0 was broken, badly, but the 3.5 psionics worked well. If anything they're slightly below the core casters.
I'm interested to know if you think there is a problem with the balance here. If so, then kinda like the Alphas and the open playtest, perhaps some of the psionic fans on the boards could help suggest some fixes.Peace,
tfad
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Creative Director
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The problem isn't the flavor... it's the fact that psionics have a STRONG tradition of being overpowered, in EVERY edition of the game.(SNIP) Every 3rd Edition game I've been in that's incorporated psionics (and yes, I've been in more than one...) has resulted in the psionic character being very overpowered.We've not had a problem with the 3.5 stuff, yes 3.0 was broken, badly, but the 3.5 psionics worked well. If anything they're slightly below the core casters.
I'm interested to know if you think there is a problem with the balance here. If so, then kinda like the Alphas and the open playtest, perhaps some of the psionic fans on the boards could help suggest some fixes.Peace,
tfad
Well... my primary concern with Psionics and the point-based system is that it essentially gives the psionic character more uses of high-level stuff. The spellcasters have limited numbers of higher level spells; they can't sacrifice their low level spells that they'd never really cast anyway to power more high level stuff.
To use my favorite analogy; each character's magic potential for a day is a big tank. For the core classes, you have a firehose attached to that tank. You can spray magic out at a trickle on up to a blast, but there's a limit to how fast you can empty your tank. The psionic character, though, does not have a limit; he can empty his entire tank in one battle if he wants. Sure, that means his tank is empty, but if your game's set up so that the group caves in and rests after every encounter... that's not a limitation at all.
If there were a stronger penalty associated with overclocking your powers, I guess I'd be more okay with it is what I'm saying.
Me, I am a fan of the flavor of psionics. The mechanics, eh, whatever. I don't really care if I am using matter agitation by spending points or if it's a spell-like ability kinda like the warlock's invocations. I just like the idea of using mental powers to roast someone in their own armor :) In 3.5 I really haven't run into any problems with the power level. If anything it's been quite weak, but I am a conservative player when it comes to using up my daily abilities and it would never occur to me to use up all of my points in one battle. The easiest fix would simply be to put in a limit to how many of x level of power you can use/day. Oh, and um, at least according to my DM, psicrystals need a wee bit of nerfing. I've been forbidden to use them unless I promise that the little critter will never go more than 10 ft away. Something about being worse than the paladin's evil-radar. Kinda ruined an evil plan or two :)
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The points system has always been the, err, point to psionics. The problem isn't the points, it's that psionic characters have too many as a daily total. Complete Psionic introduced an optional rule for psionic NPCs that they should only be treated as having half as many PP as their daily total would suggest (CPsi, p157), to better model the idea that they actually expect to, you know, live past three rounds.
Maybe a look back at the 2e recharge system, where (IIRC) you recovered 1/8th of your total PSPs per hour of rest. Maybe recovering your manifester level in PP with 5 or 10 minutes of rest, for example, but then still only having half the total of a core 3.5 psion.
Anyway, the points system is easily abusable, undeniably, but to cut it out all together destroys all the uniqueness of psionics and makes its six disciplines into just the 9th to 14th schools of arcane magic. Fix yes, kill no, in other words.
/and yes, I freely admit I'm a hard-core psionics fanboy. Dark Sun is still my favorite 2e setting.
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We've not had a problem with the 3.5 stuff, yes 3.0 was broken, badly, but the 3.5 psionics worked well. If anything they're slightly below the core casters.
I'm interested to know if you think there is a problem with the balance here. If so, then kinda like the Alphas and the open playtest, perhaps some of the psionic fans on the boards could help suggest some fixes.
There are a few specific problems with 3.5 psionics. Certain powers (XPB version of energy missile) were defiantly overpowered. Also I was not a fan of much of the Complete Psionic, partially for balance reasons.
The only systemic issue I have seen for psionics is that character can much more easily "go nova" expending all of their power in one encounter. If the party rests after each major battle, this slides things in the psychics favor. I tried to address that issue with something called strain in my take on the Pathfinder psion.
While I prefer a point based system in general, I wouldn't be totally opposed to switching to Vancian. My major concern is not a change itself, but more the backwards computability issue. While there are not a tone of supplements, it would make other psionic material obsolete.
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Personally, I think the main problem lies in the psionic point mechanic. I'd MUCH rather see a psionic class that uses a mechanic more like spell-like abilities to model the powers, but I'm pretty sure that would rile up the psionics fans, even if the in-game flavor was Exactly the Same.
This is where we differ. I thought the point system was sheer genius. It makes utter sense to me that a psion have a set amount of mental energy to use up in any fashion he or she can. (Of course, I also like the "mana point" model to sorcerer spellcasting.
I do agree that the problem here is including them from the ground up. It just ain't gonna happen.
That said, taking into consideration your balance concerns, if one were to play an XPH psion in a group of PRPG core class characters, would that psion still be over-powered? It seems to me that the psion would be dwarfed in power.
I would like to use psionics with PRPG, but am wondering how to balance them.
Will you have some sort of template notes for "easy" conversions of non-PRPG class characters? That'd be swell.
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If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game? I would. But I'm not sure that sentiment would be shared by many fans of psionics.
I would say yes, I would actually prefer psionics be adjusted to operate on the same system as spells. I love playing psionic characters but at the same time I really hate the current power point system. I would actually be more inclined rather than less if magic and psionics operated on the same system.
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Well... my primary concern with Psionics and the point-based system is that it essentially gives the psionic character more uses of high-level stuff. The spellcasters have limited numbers of higher level spells; they can't sacrifice their low level spells that they'd never really cast anyway to power more high level stuff.
There’s a problem, though, with this picture. While it’s true that a 5th-level, for example, psion is capable of manifesting more 3rd-level powers (5, at base power points per day) than a 5th-level wizard can cast 3rd-level spells (1, at base spells per level), the wizard’s lower level spells scale with caster level while a psion’s powers don’t automatically scale with manifester level (you have to pay extra power points to augment lower level powers). For instance, let’s compare a psion’s dissipating touch to the wizard’s shocking grasp. Relatively similar powers—touch attack does 1d6 damage. When cast by our example 5th-level psion and wizard, shocking grasp deals 5d6 damage using a single 1st-level slot (the equivalent of 1 power point) while the psion deals 1d6 for the same expenditure of resources. If the psion wanted to deal 5d6 damage with this power like the wizard, he’s have to spend an extra 4 power points to augment it–spending a total of 5 power points (the equivalent of a 5th-level spell slot) and still counting as a 1st-level power for minor globe of invulnerability, and related abilities.
For the record, I’d still be keen on psionic even without the “power points.” Though I’d like be sure about whether the point system is actually the problem here or if it’s actually misconception, misunderstanding or bias based on previous editions (which were admittablely wretched–especially 2nd edition!). There was an entire thread dedicated to this subject on the WotC boards.
If there were a stronger penalty associated with overclocking your powers, I guess I'd be more okay with it is what I'm saying.
Outside of the wilder, I’m not sure why there needs to be a mechanic (overchannel, et al.) for psionic classes to, as you aptly put it, overclock their powers. It’s cute, it’s fluffy, but it’s not necessary IMO.
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While I prefer a point based system in general, I wouldn't be totally opposed to switching to Vancian. My major concern is not a change itself, but more the backwards computability issue. While there are not a tone of supplements, it would make other psionic material obsolete.
At least the conversion of powers to a vancian system would be relatively easy.
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I personally much prefer the Vancian system over a point system. A good question to ask fans of psionics: Would you still be a fan if the point system went away? Are you a fan of the flavor of psionics or the current point-based mechanics? Myself... I'm a fan of the flavor, and not so much a fan of the mechanics.
As a fan of psionics I enjoy the elegance of a point based system and would not use a psionics system based on the current Vancian system. I even like the psionic items that use 'mana points'.
As it was stated before in this thread, 3.5 XPH went a long way to removing power from the psion to bring them inline or below a wizard.
I play in the group that has won the GenCon RPGA Open 4 years in a row and I have seen a wizard that would put ANY 'min-maxed' psion to shame. I've not read this thread in it's entirety, but the following thread is very important to the psionic community. Myth: The XPH is overpowered
To address your metaphor of the tank with a hose, please see talking point #16 in the above link.
Thanks for the chance to debate this topic.
Well, seeing how this is somewhat of a community driven Alpha test...
I propose a poll.
(...Ideally one that is imbedded in the thread as I have seen on other forums, that would allow each registered user to have a single vote.)
This would allow the Paizo developers to gauge the demand for a Psionics system. (Oh, and Merge all the Psionics threads into the one with the poll.)
My suggested responses:
* Put Full Psionics in the core set!
* Put Psionics teasers in the core set.
* Put out a seperate Psionics book.
* Don't waste time with Psionics.
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My problem with psionics isn't the flavor or backstory. I actually quite LIKE psionics, and many of my favorite monsters in the game have a strong tradition with psionics. The problem isn't the flavor... it's the fact that psionics have a STRONG tradition of being overpowered, in EVERY edition of the game.
As a result... the majority of the players I've seen play psionic characters also happen to be characters who enjoy the "arms-race" aspect of D&D; of outdoing the other characters, so psionics have kind of left a sour taste in my mouth as a result.
We played a game once where one player was Psionic. It was ok until he ended up using all his power points on one encounter just because... an then expected all the other players to wait around for him to "recharge" the one limiting factor that was never placed into the rules was a cap on the amount of power someone can use at one time. I think mainly due to the excess of math involved. Not that people cant count but well most of us just are to lazy. Thats why some want to play a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard because its too much paperwork for a wizard if you do it right. It causes even halfway descent players to blow there wad on one encounter. I love the concept I love the rules but the way it ends up being played leaves much to be wanted. If you want my vote please include the basics into the core rules.
To address your metaphor of the tank with a hose, please see talking point #16 in the above link.
From my point of view #16 doesn't address the tank with a hose as much as it confirms it. The point basically says that it is more powerful than other spellcasters when there are few encounters per day. The problem is that there is nothing really forcing the party to have four encounters per day. The psions can have their two encounters most of the time then just hide away and rest for powers again.
... the one limiting factor that was never placed into the rules was a cap on the amount of power someone can use at one time. I think mainly due to the excess of math involved. ...
The 3.5 rules for Psionics state that a Psionic Character cannot use more power points than his Manifester Level on a single power. PERIOD.
This is by and large the most important rule in the book, and when not used leads to all kinds of bad blood between Psionicists and other casters.
There are pretty much two things the psionics system can do:
#1 Model a character who draws on internal psychic energy to do extraordinary things.
#2 Provide a magic system that doesn't work like the standard magic system.
My opinion is that any system matching #2 is, by definition, non-core. One magic system for the game belongs in core, others should be optional.
So, how can you fill role #1?
Well, you could sit down with the psionics rules and turn them into a spell slot system. That means you're going to spend a lot of space in the book on a whole power system that just does what the current magic system already does. It also means you're explicitly putting something in the place of SRD (XPH) psionics, making things harder on fans of SRD psionics.
Alternatively, you could create a "psionic"-flavor bloodline for sorcerers and add a monk "school" that's explicitly "psionic" in nature. You might also add the soulknife as a 12th class -- with flavor options to support both psionic and arcane (and maybe even divine) variants. Then "psychic-powered" characters are supported in the core rules with a minimum of additional text.
People who want no "psionics" in the game could ignore the psionic options in those three classes, while those who want "real" psionics could add on the whole SRD/XPH system (or future Pathfinder psionics sourcebook), either instead of or in addition to the options for monks and sorcerers.
So Psionics always do 15 minute adventure day and Arcane and Divine Casters don't? That's funny, last I recall Mages can shoot off fireballs as fast as they can as well.
Any character who shoots all their abilities in one encounter should be penalized by not letting them rest and being useless and/or not getting any XP since they aren't doing anything.
Putting a cap on how many powers can be cast and encounter is silly as well. Do you tell Mages that they can only cast so many spells in an encounter?
But a fifth level psion can get about seven third level powers off. A fifth level wizard can get off about two third level spells and three second level spells. Counting the first level spells does the wizard get more abilities per day if the psion is going full blast.
Well... my primary concern with Psionics and the point-based system is that it essentially gives the psionic character more uses of high-level stuff. The spellcasters have limited numbers of higher level spells; they can't sacrifice their low level spells that they'd never really cast anyway to power more high level stuff.
Thanks for the feedback - it's great to hear what the staff at Paizo think about the things we (customers) love. I think Azzy answered your point.
There’s a problem, though, with this picture. While it’s true that a 5th-level, for example, psion is capable of manifesting more 3rd-level powers (5, at base power points per day) than a 5th-level wizard can cast 3rd-level spells (1, at base spells per level), the wizard’s lower level spells scale with caster level while a psion’s powers don’t automatically scale with manifester level (you have to pay extra power points to augment lower level powers). For instance, let’s compare a psion’s dissipating touch to the wizard’s shocking grasp. Relatively similar powers—touch attack does 1d6 damage. When cast by our example 5th-level psion and wizard, shocking grasp deals 5d6 damage using a single 1st-level slot (the equivalent of 1 power point) while the psion deals 1d6 for the same expenditure of resources. If the psion wanted to deal 5d6 damage with this power like the wizard, he’s have to spend an extra 4 power points to augment it–spending a total of 5 power points (the equivalent of a 5th-level spell slot) and still counting as a 1st-level power for minor globe of invulnerability, and related abilities.
The great things about the power point system are that 1) You can choose to 'go nova' (i.e. it's an option, with draw backs) and 2) Spending points 'feels' different to spell slots. If you change the point mechanic to something similar to spells then it's a step towards the mess that is 4th Ed., where everyone's powers work the same way. I'd not be against changing from pp to something else, but that something else would have to 'feel' different from spells. I don't think 'per day' would cut it though. Psionics is great because the flavor is supported by an interesting mechanic.
Like I said above, blowing all of your points in one go is an option. It's an option that is more pronounced in the psionic classes than the non-, but is still there in most of the other classes. There are drawbacks to doing so and if PCs are doing this all the time, comfortable that there'll be no more combat/use for pp that day, then it's the DM's job to mix things up a bit. No players should feel that they have 'cracked' it - there needs to be excitement and uncertainty in every good game. I have to say though, I've never played in a game where this is a problem. In fact, we've found the psion/wilder out classed by the cleric/sorcerer/wizard more than the other way around, for the point raised above by Azzy.
Everyone's game is different though, as all players are people!
Peace,
tfad
The problem isn't the flavor... it's the fact that psionics have a STRONG tradition of being overpowered, in EVERY edition of the game.
I only know 3.0 and 3.5 psionics, and in both cases, this is, at least somewhat, true.
But since you know the problem, you can counter it! In the Pathfinder Psionics Handbook, try to put them more in line with the other classes, and Bob's your uncle.
Just to toss out a couple of ideas:
Manifesters don't have to be great energy damage dealers. The fact that 3.5 psions are actually better than wizards in dealing elemental damage is weird. Don't give them powers that allow them to choose the element, don't give those elements benefits like +1 damage per die or the option or requiring fort saves instead of ref, and so on.
I think powers should do "psychic" damage. I.e. unnamed damage that is lessened by will saves, doesn't work against protected minds - and isn't as high as the damage a wizard of equal level can deal. Something like 1d4 per level, 1d6 per two levels, or 1d8 per two levels.
I still think the Power Point mechanic should stay, since it's one of the things people like most with psionics. You can always opt to let their power level raise more slowly than a wizard's, so that even though they can blast away with their strongest powers all the time, using a lot of power points, their strongest powers won't be as strong as a wizard's stongest power.
Psionics should be spell-like in nature, meaning that everything that helps against magic should help against psionics. I've seen the "psionics are different" option abused a couple of times (one prime example was one player who made a nearly unstoppable psionic character with some weird crystal prestige class, who had a much better AC than the other characters, and overcame resistances with ease. And the guy had the audacity to complain that I'm being unfair to him when the final boss was a psionic dragon and the tables were turned for once. Funny thing is that he kept complaining about a player who always did power gamer concepts. I frankly haven't seen much that equaled his personal psion power character)
Psionics have to either be incorporated into a game from the start (and the ship's sailed there, honestly; even for the Pathfinder RPG, which is NOT a new game, only a revision to an existing one), or they have to be sculpted to fit with the existing game.
This might sound like fanboyism, but Paizo has shown that they understand the game, and I think you could make it fit the existing game without losing its flavour.
Don't do it for me. Do it for poor little Timmy here. Timmy loves you, he believes in you. He has been through much, and seeing his great idols not do a proper psionics book would break his heart for good.
Go, Paizo! Timmy counts on you.
:D
We DO have psionics in Golarion. There WILL be creatures like intellect devourers showing up sooner than later, and they'll have psionic powers. But we're still mulling over things like psionic characters and the psionic classes.
I always thought that they'd fit particularly well into something asian-flavoured. A far east nation that distrusts magic - especially arcane magic - but values the power of the mind. They'd have monks with ki powers, and for the roles usually used by wizards or sorcerers, they'd prefer psions, which would fill roles as advisors.
Personally, I think the main problem lies in the psionic point mechanic. I'd MUCH rather see a psionic class that uses a mechanic more like spell-like abilities to model the powers, but I'm pretty sure that would rile up the psionics fans, even if the in-game flavor was Exactly the Same.
I must say that I kinda like power points. But if I were shown another way to model psionic powers, even as a rough draft, I would definetly take a good look at it.
10) Psionics is sci-fi, not fantasy
Not necessarily. The idea of changing reality with a mere thought is no stranger to fantasy.
9) D&D already has 2 magic systems - arcane & divine. What's the point in having a third?
The more the merrier!
Actually, basic D&D only has one magic system: Magic.
Arcane and divine are just different flavours, they work the same: You prepare spells on slots you cast later (or, in some cases, choose a number of spells you cannot change except under special circumstances, but then cast them with "spontaneous slots").
There are some details like divine magic being usable in armour more often than arcane magic, different sources of power (ancient power against higher entities), and different foci in application (buff and heal against destroy and so on), but it's all magic.
I don't mind there being many different sources:
Magic from the core rules.
Psionics from the PsiHB.
Pact Magic from Secrets of Pact Magic.
Tech or Artifice or Alchemy.
Planar Conduids that assume the power and shapes of strage creatures from stranger realms.
Menagerie where a Tamer calls and controls other creatures to fight for him.
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8) Psionics & Arcane magic are conceptually redundant, using the power & discipline of the mind to affect one's surroundings or self.
Well, the results are often the same. In fact, magic already covers most bases: It has destruction, messing with minds, healing, snuffing out life, protecting, hexing, summoning..... Not only wizards, but also clerics can do many of those things.
The differences are in how it is achieved, and where the focus lies:
Arcane magic uses archaic formulae and powers of often questionable sources to evoke their powers, and a big focus lies on doing elemental damage.
Divine magic invokes higher powers, priests channeling their patron's will down here on earth, with a focus on all sorts of cures and protections, as well as buffs.
Psionics are the power of an awakened mind that learns to alter reality with a whim. Messing with people's minds are a major theme here.
7) Since psionics can also heal, why play a cleric?
Because a cleric is much, much better at it?
6) Psionics overlaps both Arcane & Divine magic.
And arcane and divine magic overlaps each other. "I can strip you of your magical defenses" "So can I. And I can call down the fiery wrath of heaven." "Fire, eh? I can do that, have a pick of dozens of spells that fry you. By the way, this is my friend, the demon I've summoned." "Well met. Here, let him play with the angel I've called from my god's home plane, while I am busy putting some hexes on you." "I'll show you what a real hex is. And then I'll enslave your mind." "Not if I addle yours first...."
5) Psionics are OVERPOWERED compared to the other classes, and always have been.
Does't mean that they can't be balanced against other classes.
4) Since the psionic "mana system" is so much better & versatile than vancian magic, why not just incorporate that system into the core classes?
Because vancian magic rules? Everyone can do mana. Mana mana mana mana mana. It's all you ever hear. D&D is different. But if you want to try something like it, we won't stop anyone. Options.
3) Psionics add nothing, except a mana system mechanic. Force screen = Shield. Inertail Armor = Mage Armor. Difference = 0.
Synesthete =?
Forced Share Pain =?Mindwipe =?
Cloud Mind =?
Microcosm =?
Time regression =?
Mindlink =?
...
Even though you can probably find a lot to replace those question marks, it's all beside the point.
What Psionics adds is flavour. That's not nothing. That's far from it.
I could as well say "Elves add nothing."
2) The Psychic Warrior is simply a nice template for designing the needed Warrior-Mage to D&D! The Soul Knife can easily be redefined as a magical class - See? Almost no more mods required other than that single statement.
If one point is that psionics add nothing, you can't make another point that psionics do add something (a warrior-mage type, and a warrior that has a kind of spiritual weapon) but that you can change them to magic.
Everything could be turned into magic. Doesn't mean it should. Again, it's all about flavour, options, and different ways to reach the same goal.
One of the great strengths of pen and paper RPGs is that you can expand them at will. You can't add a monk class to Diablo 2 just like that, or decide to play a different kind of elf in World of Warcraft. Taking away that option just because you don't get new mechanics to do damage or crowd control or something defeats the whole system.
1) Lo! For psionics have long been a symptom of passive-aggressive munchkinism.
You know, most of the dwarves I've seen played were played because the bonuses dwarves get are so great, and the penalties a paltry thing for even amateur power gamers. In fact, of those dwarves that weren't like that, most were played just to show that dwarves aren't like that.
GET RID OF DWARVES!
And clerics. Don't get me started with them! Divine Metamagic (Persistant Rightous Might and Divine Power) and Persistant Divine Favour, quickened buff and they outfight a fighter with easy while doling out powerful majick.
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!
Not to mention...(insert twenty-hour rant)
...Now, what do we have left? Hm... I think we all must play gnome bards exclusively now. Ditch the Pathfinder name, call it Gnome: The Harrowing.
:P
Please . . . put it in its own book.
No argument here. It's a nice option, but shouldn't quite be core. For starters, it would blow that poor core rules book up even further.
And, I know that many people don't like psionics. I personally like them, but I understand others not liking them. I don't like dwarves, but understand that others do like them (and, just like many psi-haters, my dislike is mainly because of some powergaming jerks abusing them).
So for the sake of books you can still lift with one hand, and the fact that tastes differ, it should totally be a separate book.
I also think that chronicles should make use of that book. Not heavily, mind you, and in the same way it makes use of other optional books (either supply stats when needed or, in case of mere mentions of content, supply alternatives), but psionics should have their place on Golaion.
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From my point of view #16 doesn't address the tank with a hose as much as it confirms it. The point basically says that it is more powerful than other spellcasters when there are few encounters per day. The problem is that there is nothing really forcing the party to have four encounters per day. The psions can have their two encounters most of the time then just hide away and rest for powers again.
And when wizards have two encounters per day they can just as easily nova and then hide away and rest for spells again.
I am surprised no one has suggested this... But what about Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook? This system converts psionic (or as they term it, psychic) powers into a set of skills and feats. Using psychic powers is handled the same way as any other skill check. It even has a built-in power regulator: psychic strain. Using psychic powers basically causes nonlethal damage. The more powers you use, the more you "max them out", the more strain you take, until you just pass out.
I thought this system worked very well. The only tweek I'd suggest is giving the character class 2 separate skill sets: one for his regular skills, the other for psychic skills (skill points would be mutually exclusive: psychic skill points CANNOT be spent on regular skills, and visa versa). Otherwise, the psychic class would have to sacrifice his basic skills just to gain his class abilities. Try justifying to the wizard why his Spellcraft skill has to suffer just so he can use 2nd level spells.
Sadly, I have been unable to aquire a copy of the Psychic's Handbook myself (it's unavailable), so I have to make do with the appendix in the back of the Advanced Player's Handbook. Still, I think it works. Now I don't know about copyright laws and such, but it might be worth looking into.
DogBone
From my point of view #16 doesn't address the tank with a hose as much as it confirms it. The point basically says that it is more powerful than other spellcasters when there are few encounters per day. The problem is that there is nothing really forcing the party to have four encounters per day. The psions can have their two encounters most of the time then just hide away and rest for powers again.And when wizards have two encounters per day they can just as easily nova and then hide away and rest for spells again.
But psions are much, much better at it. I think it still is a problem with other casters, but in my experience a psionic character is just better if the party has one or two fights per day because of the way their powers work.
Are you sure that high-level psionics are that powerfull ? Last time a munchkin used a psion on my campaing he used more the tunned up low-level powers. And he ended changing back to mage because the books keeped bringing new options to mage and none to psions.
He's an amateur :P
I am surprised no one has suggested this... But what about Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook? This system converts psionic (or as they term it, psychic) powers into a set of skills and feats. Using psychic powers is handled the same way as any other skill check. It even has a built-in power regulator: psychic strain. Using psychic powers basically causes nonlethal damage. The more powers you use, the more you "max them out", the more strain you take, until you just pass out.
I thought this system worked very well. The only tweek I'd suggest is giving the character class 2 separate skill sets: one for his regular skills, the other for psychic skills (skill points would be mutually exclusive: psychic skill points CANNOT be spent on regular skills, and visa versa). Otherwise, the psychic class would have to sacrifice his basic skills just to gain his class abilities. Try justifying to the wizard why his Spellcraft skill has to suffer just so he can use 2nd level spells.
Sadly, I have been unable to aquire a copy of the Psychic's Handbook myself (it's unavailable), so I have to make do with the appendix in the back of the Advanced Player's Handbook. Still, I think it works. Now I don't know about copyright laws and such, but it might be worth looking into.
DogBone
Funny, I was just thinking of mentioning green ronins psionic system but since I haven't actually playtested it in my game yet I didn't. Just from what I have read though, the system looks solid enough.
I don't like "magic as skills" systems. I feel it marginalises magic - you can either know about critters and tiptoe down slippery slopes OR cast magic missile. A fighter doesn't have an Attack skill, either.
Plus I don't think that everyone should just be able to do psionics.
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Hmm... Pretty good, on the low fantasy. On high fantasy however, not so much. It actually has nothing to do with magic. High Fantasy as identified in most writer sources has to deal with the high struggle of good versus evil and cosmic world ending struggle. Dragonlance is the only one that even closely falls into High Fantasy. Other good examples are the Wheel of Time and the Chronicles of Narnia.
The feel is the ultimate battles of Good versus Evil, and the hero is the focus of all moral purity.
What you described is more heroic fantasy in a high magic setting. Morality doesn't really play a part in the realms, even less so in Eberron or Greyhawk. Rarely are the heroes adventures going to change the shape of reality, and that's good. Really, how boring is it to keep saving the world?
Now as I said before, are Psionics "High Fantasy"? NO, because its very nature keeps them from traveling far beyond the personal. Is it Heroic? It can be, due to the fact that Psionics are about how the individual handles them. It it fun? well, as far as I am concerned it is.
Now, for the big one. Should Psionics be a part of the main book? No, but it should be a supplement.
James
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One thing that's probably important for me to restate...
Psionics ARE in Golarion.
That doesn't mean they'll be covered much (or at all) in the Pathfinder RPG, but they WILL get at least a couple of pages of flavor in the Hardcover Campaign setting. Likewise, there'll be psionic themed monsters in Second Darkness, including a few taken from the psionics section of the SRD.
What remains to be seen is how we handle the introduction of actual unique psionic powers and the psionic character classes. We'll figure it out eventually. But probably not soon; we've got hardcovers and rulesets and Adventure Paths clogging the runway right now...