|
As long as psionics are allowed in Golarion somewhee, you're going to need to have rules for a psionic PC class.
My advice: have a single, simple psionic class in the base book. perhaps Soulknife. (That's your "12th Iconic".) A soulknife doesn't need much in the way of explanation, and in particular doesn't need pages of psionic power descriptions.
Then give us psions, psychic warriors, and so on ... maybe even a new psionic class designed for Golarion ... in a seperate book.
But the base rulebook really should have one simple psionic representative.
This is a great idea! Something like this would be really cool! Even better than having all the psionics in the core rules (which is out of question anyway). And it opensa the door for a future 'Psionics of Golarion'-type of book...
I've said elsewhere I'm not keen on Concentration being rolled into spellcraft. By mixing Concentration and autohypnosis as a single skill, you keep concentration and make it useful, and flavourful, for monks as well.
I second that. Many psionic mechanis require a concentration skill and I'd like to keep it as well. This would also give the feel that psionics and magic are different somehow.
In my games I've already rolled Autohypnosis into Concentration (called Meditate in my games) and I use it for avoiding AoO for manifesters/spellcasters, memorizing stuff, retaking Poison saves and stuff like that.
Jason, are you reading this? Please consider keeping Concentration, rolling Autohypnosis into it (thus making it more useful for other classes too, perhaps even call it Meditate) and work in the Soulknife, psionic focus rules (useful for spellcasters too!), a few focus feats.
As I said before, we at Dreamscarred Press are willing to help out with this.
|
I might be biased here, being a co-owner of Dreamscarred Press, but I do think that the concept of adding the Soulknife into the base book will do alot. It doesn't require a lot of powers or rules to explain, since it is fairly straightforward. Our Untapped Potential version if OGL and open to use, and we'd be happy to help out.
The Soulknife is also one of the most malleable classes - so far I've had players manifest their mindblades in the form of energyblades (duh), shadows, crystalline outgrowths (Psi-forged in Eberron), blood and just as extensions of their fists and kicks (semi-monkish).
It would showcase that Psionics IS indeed part of Golarion, leaving the options for a "Pathfinder Psionics Handbook" later down the line where one can expand on Wilders, Psychic Warriors, Psions and other classes, include revised powers taking care of the problems from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and making sure it meshes well with the rules.
This is what I want to see. The soulknife (and several variants) is the one psionic class that has gotten consistent use with my group. Including this class in the "core " Pathfinder RPG book, as well as a select few skills (bring back concentration, but with autohypnosis folded into it) and psionic feats that can be used not only by them, but some of the other core classes as well, would go a long way to having psionics be integrated in a way that is more natural and would therefore not feel like an afterthought. Deal with the other psi classes in another supplement as needed. This will at least give those who love psionics some sort of representation, while also giving those that aren't fans the opportunity to see that psionics are not as bad as they think it might be. If you hedge on it for too long, then this will only reinforce the belief that psionics aren't "core."
Jason, are you reading this? Please consider keeping Concentration, rolling Autohypnosis into it (thus making it more useful for other classes too, perhaps even call it Meditate) and work in the Soulknife, psionic focus rules (useful for spellcasters too!), a few focus feats.
As I said before, we at Dreamscarred Press are willing to help out with this.
I'm amicable to the idea of rolling autohypnosis into concentration, but I dislike the idea of calling it meditate. A spellcaster trying to pull off a spell while being attacked isn't "meditating."
I also like the idea of Paizo including the Soulknife; I think having a non-manifester is a great way to ease in psionics, and I hope DSP is able to work with Paizo for additional psionic content in the future, or at least that Paizo will grab DSP's existing OGL work and incorporate it.
I always liked psionics and tried to play such characters, but the players I gamed with never appreciated psionics. Including a bit about them in the core book would give psionics more credibility.
I always liked psionics and tried to play such characters, but the players I gamed with never appreciated psionics. Including a bit about them in the core book would give psionics more credibility.
Agreed.
I vote for psionics. I'm willing to have it be modular enough that it can be pulled out by those who don't want them.
|
Psionics are not part of the current plans, but if demand is high enough, I might see what I can do about a future, stand-alone release. Time will tell.
I would strongly suggest that, even if you don't plan to include psionics in the core book, to start working on psionics now. That way it doesn't suffer from a "tacked-on" feel.
I might be biased here, being a co-owner of Dreamscarred Press, but I do think that the concept of adding the Soulknife into the base book will do alot. It doesn't require a lot of powers or rules to explain, since it is fairly straightforward. Our Untapped Potential version if OGL and open to use, and we'd be happy to help out.
The Soulknife is also one of the most malleable classes - so far I've had players manifest their mindblades in the form of energyblades (duh), shadows, crystalline outgrowths (Psi-forged in Eberron), blood and just as extensions of their fists and kicks (semi-monkish).
It would showcase that Psionics IS indeed part of Golarion, leaving the options for a "Pathfinder Psionics Handbook" later down the line where one can expand on Wilders, Psychic Warriors, Psions and other classes, include revised powers taking care of the problems from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and making sure it meshes well with the rules.
Though I'm not familiar (unfortunately) with the Untapped Potential version of the soulknife, I strongly support this as well. A modified (from the XPH version) soulknife would be an easy addition.
Also, I'd suggest adding in the Wild Talent feat as well as a handful of psionic feats. These add in a bit of psionic flavor and psi-supprt to Golarion without requiring psi-dislikers to learn the rules for psionic powers (the psi feats are pretty self-contained, much like other feats).
I think these last two options would be a great compromise for both psi-fans and psi-dislikers. It allows for relegating the full psionics rules to a secondary expansion book (good for the psi-dislikers), while containing a few gems (yes, that was intended) for the psi-community that don't actually require learning a new system.
And everybody wins.
Basically, I´d vote for concentrating on the main rules, of which psionics are not a part. Relegate psionics to a supplemental sourcebook.
That said, if you manage to integrate something like a wild talent, perhaps similar to 1st Ed. AD&D psionics in volume, that might be interesting. But please concentrate on the core rules.
Stefan
|
|
Teh Hate!Ugh, I need psionics like I need another hole in my head. If you're going to do it, do it as a separate book so we can ban those books in our games and promptly ignore them would you? Great.
Eh strong dislike.
I think powergamers tend to gravitate towards psionics. Also it tends to mess with the fantasy feel. It's more a sci-fi thing.But hey if they made a book for them I wouldn't mind. Wouldn't buy it, but I'm not going to swallow my tongue or anything over it.
Actually, the human skull does have a cranium hole where the bones don't fuse until appropriately two years of age… oh, where was I? Yes, if for nothing else than to see 3.5 psionics continue, I'm for it.
Noah, even as a huge proponent and lover of the psionics system, I am also well aware that including another FORM of "magic system" with its own list of powers in the core book will be impossible. Just look at the XPH, its 224 pages, just a little short of 75% of the entire Players Handbook.
Its better to include one psionic class, the easy rules, the focus feats that others can use as well and then expand on it later.
|
|
Teh Hate!Eh strong dislike.
Heh, I was just razzing you. :)
I think powergamers tend to gravitate towards psionics.
Perhaps out of remembrance of 2e.However, once they play 3.5 they gravitate elsewhere--like to the cleric or druid.
Also it tends to mess with the fantasy feel. It's more a sci-fi thing.
Certainly not psionics as presented in 3.5. No, 3.5 psionics has more of feel of the contemplative mystic--like the sufi, the guru, or the monk.
Whereas arcane magic comes from channeling the supernatural forces of the multiverse and divine magic comes from channeling divine essence granted by a deity, D&D psionics is about channeling the power within.
But hey if they made a book for them I wouldn't mind. Wouldn't buy it, but I'm not going to swallow my tongue or anything over it.
And that's cool, but really, try to take another look at 3.5 psionics--it's a whole different beast than a lot of people make it out to be.
Eh strong dislike.
I think powergamers tend to gravitate towards psionics. Also it tends to mess with the fantasy feel. It's more a sci-fi thing.
That is one of the reasons I like psionics. I started playing in 1980 and loved that the original DMG had conversion rules for Gamma World. I also the Judges Guild's Wilderland setting (which had sci-fi roots). So for me, psionics is part of D&D.
Mind you, it is not for everyone, but it holds a special place for me. As others have suggested, leaving the heavy psionics from the rulebook in favor of just the soulknife is perhaps the best compromise. This would alos be a good time to define the Autohypnosis skill (by some other name) in a manner that it can be used by more than just psionic classes.
Noah, even as a huge proponent and lover of the psionics system, I am also well aware that including another FORM of "magic system" with its own list of powers in the core book will be impossible. Just look at the XPH, its 224 pages, just a little short of 75% of the entire Players Handbook.
Its better to include one psionic class, the easy rules, the focus feats that others can use as well and then expand on it later.
This I think is the most realistic solution. Not enough (in terms of page count) to annoy the folks who don't want anything to do w/ psionics, but a "foot in the door" for those of us who do, and we can then (patiently) wait for the supplement book that is Paizo's version of the XPH. I will agree w/ others that the "non-core" stigma can be avoided here, and maybe we can attract some more fans to the wonderful world of psionics.
Edit: And including the Untapped Potential revision (a thing of beauty) to the Soulknife is the perfect introduction.
|
|
Eh strong dislike.
I think powergamers tend to gravitate towards psionics. Also it tends to mess with the fantasy feel. It's more a sci-fi thing.That is one of the reasons I like psionics. I started playing in 1980 and loved that the original DMG had conversion rules for Gamma World. I also the Judges Guild's Wilderland setting (which had sci-fi roots). So for me, psionics is part of D&D.
Mind you, it is not for everyone, but it holds a special place for me. As others have suggested, leaving the heavy psionics from the rulebook in favor of just the soulknife is perhaps the best compromise. This would alos be a good time to define the Autohypnosis skill (by some other name) in a manner that it can be used by more than just psionic classes.
It's funny I was talking to Frank just last night about this. I know psionics go back all the way. I blame Traveller and Gamma World for tainting my D&D. }; )
If you guys want them then why not start the conversions? You don't have to wait for an official version.
I can understand the risk for providing space for anything that would consequently cut into profits. If psionics doesn't sell, then it's just a matter of economics.
I just find that bitter since psionics is in the 3.5 SRD, and I find that it's a shame that although all of the other 3.5 SRD classes and races will get a swift make-over to fit into the Pathfinder rpg, but psionics will be the sole one left out despite promises of them entering the hardcover and Second Darkness AP.
If I want to see a psion modified, I guess it will be left up to me to do (especially if it's in time to play CotCT) "sigh". If there will be anything, I'd hate to have to wait another year or two.
Is there any chance that Pathfinder psionics might return to the portion of 3.0 system that allowed each different ability score to anchor one of the psion subclasses? I really liked that part of the system as it allowed non-spellcasters to seriously multiclass as psions. In the campaign I run we had a centaur character who was a barbarian/fighter/pison (egoist). It sounded like a crazy combination, but because of the high centaur strength he get very synergistic benefit from the 1/3 of his levels that were psion. I believe that under the 3.5 psionic rules there would be no way to replicate that excellent synergy. :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Is there any chance that Pathfinder psionics might return to the portion of 3.0 system that allowed each different ability score to anchor one of the psion subclasses? I really liked that part of the system as it allowed non-spellcasters to seriously multiclass as psions. In the campaign I run we had a centaur character who was a barbarian/fighter/pison (egoist). It sounded like a crazy combination, but because of the high centaur strength he get very synergistic benefit from the 1/3 of his levels that were psion. I believe that under the 3.5 psionic rules there would be no way to replicate that excellent synergy. :)
Oh gods no. That was a hodrribly brokem mechanic that made manifests MAD and useless.
|
|
Is there any chance that Pathfinder psionics might return to the portion of 3.0 system that allowed each different ability score to anchor one of the psion subclasses? I really liked that part of the system as it allowed non-spellcasters to seriously multiclass as psions. In the campaign I run we had a centaur character who was a barbarian/fighter/pison (egoist). It sounded like a crazy combination, but because of the high centaur strength he get very synergistic benefit from the 1/3 of his levels that were psion. I believe that under the 3.5 psionic rules there would be no way to replicate that excellent synergy. :)Oh gods no. That was a hodrribly brokem mechanic that made manifests MAD and useless.
Agreed.
Is there any chance that Pathfinder psionics might return to the portion of 3.0 system that allowed each different ability score to anchor one of the psion subclasses? I really liked that part of the system as it allowed non-spellcasters to seriously multiclass as psions. In the campaign I run we had a centaur character who was a barbarian/fighter/pison (egoist). It sounded like a crazy combination, but because of the high centaur strength he get very synergistic benefit from the 1/3 of his levels that were psion. I believe that under the 3.5 psionic rules there would be no way to replicate that excellent synergy. :)Oh gods no. That was a hodrribly brokem mechanic that made manifests MAD and useless.
It worked quite well in my campaign. I think the only thing horribly broken here is your spelling of "horribly broken." :-D
+1 for Psionics as core class options (Based upon Dreamscarred FTW!)
-1 on reverting back to the 3.0 Psionics '1 stat per school' rules. They may have been appealing as fluff, but as crunch you have to roll all uber stats to play a decent psion, anywhere near as well as a wizard or cleric.
It's funny I was talking to Frank just last night about this. I know psionics go back all the way. I blame Traveller and Gamma World for tainting my D&D. }; )
If you guys want them then why not start the conversions? You don't have to wait for an official version.
Well, here is my take on a revised "Autohypnosis" skill:
Discipline (Wisdom; Trained Only)
You have trained yourself to gain mastery over the deepest capabilities of your body and mind.
Check: The DC and the effect of a successful check depend on the task you attempt.
Death trance: DC 15 or opposed roll.
Gain Psionic focus: DC 20
Memorize: DC 15
Resist fear: DC of Fear effect
Willpower: DC 20
Death Trance: You may slow your heart rate and breathing, appearing as though you were dead. While in this trance, you may double the length of time that you can hold your breath. You are also unable to move and suffer a –5 penalty to Perception checks. Anyone attempting to determine if you are alive must make a Heal check opposed by your Discipline check.
Gain Psionic Focus: Merely holding a reservoir of psionic power points in mind gives psionic characters a special energy. Psionic characters can put that energy to work without actually paying a power point cost—they can become psionically focused as a special use of the Discipline skill. If you have 1 or more power points available, you can meditate to attempt to become psionically focused. Meditating is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Discipline check you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Discipline check is treated as if you rolled a 15. It’s like taking 10, except that the number you add to your modifier is 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat—many psionic feats are activated in this way. Once you are psionically focused, you remain focused until you expend your focus, become unconscious, or go to sleep, enter a death trance, or until your power point reserve drops to 0.
Memorize: You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information (but you can’t memorize magical writing or similarly exotic scripts). Each successful check allows you to memorize a single page of text (up to 800 words), numbers, diagrams, or sigils (even if you don’t recognize their meaning). If a document is longer than one page, you can make additional checks for each additional page (to a maximum of 3 + your Wisdom bonus). You always retain this information; however, you can recall it only with another successful Discipline check.
Resist Fear: In response to any fear effect, you make a saving throw normally. If you fail the saving throw, you can make a Discipline check on your next round even while overcome by fear. If your check meets or beats the DC for the fear effect, you shrug off the fear for 1 round. You may continue to resist each round. On a failed check, the fear fully takes hold and affects you normally. You gain no further attempts to shrug off that particular fear effect.
Willpower: If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make a Discipline check. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage. You must make a check for each strenuous action you want to take. A failed check in this circumstance carries no direct penalty—you can choose not to take the strenuous action and thus avoid the hit point loss. If you do so anyway, you drop to –1 hit points, as normal when disabled.
Action: None. Making a Discipline check doesn’t require an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).
Try Again: Yes, for memorize and willpower uses, though a success doesn’t cancel the effects of a previous failure. No for the other uses.
So, how about it Design Team? A Soulknife crumb for the psionics fans?
|
|
There will be psionics in Pathfinder. We've got races using them living underground in the Darklands, across the sea in Vudra, and on other planets. I doubt you'll see them included in the base rules though... unless feedback from the open playtest over then next year and a half convinces us otherwise, of course!
How about a planet where psionics are rife?
Don't want psionics in your game? Don't visit the psionic planet!
PC psions in Golarion can have somehow been transported from their home planet.
Do you guys have any preference regarding the psioncs / magic transparency thing? In my games, psionics is treated as just another type of magic. Spell resistance is the same thing as psi resistance, spellcraft includes psicraft etc.
Would it be a good idea if Pathfinder specifies the approach to take, or should it leave it up to the DM like the XPH does?
PC psions in Golarion can have somehow been transported from their home planet.
Wow, *yoink* for my next character concept.
"Alastair of the Mist Planet is visiting Golarion's primitives by an accident of the Teleportation Rays" or something along those lines.
So, how about it Design Team? A Soulknife crumb for the psionics fans?
Yeah, I too vote for it. Give psionic characters a chance, please! I think many will be surprised about how many gamers didn't play psionic characters just because they weren't in the PHB and were felt as not integrated enough into the system and 'feel' of the game. If WotC could stuck an oriental monk in the PHB, I don't see how a Soulknife could be any problem.
Regards,
ZOOROOS
It's cool that psionics will have a place in the Golarion continuity. The idea of other planets as a source adds a sort of cool "Planetary Romance" angle that, having been reading a little ERB lately, seems very cool.
I'm cool if there is no Pathfinder PC psionics book so long as the compatability goal of the books is met. I have plenty of other third party psionics books I'd like to continue using.
Until there is a psionic PC in Pathfinder, I simply plan on assigning the sorcerer to the psion's old role in my campaign setting. I'll just encourage PCs to select spells appropriate to a "psion-concept" character... mind-influencing spells, telekinetic spells, self-only transmutations, and so forth.
Methinks this topic needs a little bump.
Much as I hate to admit it, the 4e system of at will/per encounter/per day things might work really really well for psionics.
For the love of ! NO!
Powers mean power points! PPs or PPPs!
As a group who uses psionics and are going to be using the Alpha over this coming weekend, we've already looked at how they'll update. If you grant the psionic warrior the new progression for feats/weapons/armour a la the Pathfinder fighter, then he should update no problem. The Soul Knife and Wilder would probably be okay 'as is' ish. The Wilder gets a d8 HD (Alpha p.18) and that goes a long way. The Soul Knife has always needed a bit of a re-write as a class. But I don't see any problem with simply giving them a full BAB and medium armour proficiency.
The Psion is a bit more of a problem as I think they'll need a write up for each discipline a la the new (rockin') wizard schools. Although that'll only take one creative individual an afternoon - less time if each of the powers only comes from the discipline's exclusive list.
Don't know about the Complete Psionic though - is that even in the SRD? I don't think so....
I'd love to see Psionic support for Pathfinder - huge fan of both - but I think it would need to be a separate book from the core rules.
If it is going to happen can I champion for the inclusion of Dreamscarred Press' awesome 'Mantra' feats to be included as a core part of Psionics? They're really sound, both mechanically and flavour-wise and we can't get enough of them!
Other planets? Oh, please tell me we'll see Pathjammer: Pathfinder in Space! That would make me giddy as a school girl!
Here! Here! My group is still using Spelljammer today. Love Spelljammer....
Peace,
tfad
|
|
I've seen psionics evolve over the years, from First edition on. And I will be the first to admit that this particular mechanic has seen lots of abuse (both by players and GMs alike), but that can be said about most other game mechanics as well. So what is it that sets psionics apart from all the others in terms of fear?
Simply put, its the fact that alot of otherwise good GMs just don't know how to handle its presence in their games. They see psionics as another magic system when it is anything but, so, as a result, they lack the understanding to fully integrate it properly into their game. With horrible results. With the GM (as well as the non-psionic using players) feeling burned by the entire experience. So much so, that it gets banned from use.
And this isn't helped when the makers of the game treat it as little more than a system patch, or worse, a gimmick to base a setting around (ala Dark Sun).
I, and those here in this thread, wish to see this changed. We want to see psionics as a fully integrated part of this setting. I mean, if the only standard non-XPH SRD monster that uses psionics is the aboleth, what does that say to those of us that like using this particular mechanic? Understanding that the game revolves around magic use, I think its high time that psionics got more representation in the form of classes, monsters, and abilities. Even if its only limited in the core book for Pathfinder, its still better than nothing. One class (the soulknife), a few skills and feats would go a long way to making this change felt. As much as I may not like Eberron, it at least has something to take psionics into account and it was done in the core setting book. Pathfinder does too, in the form of the many C'thulu elements that are being (and have been) introduced into the setting.
Psionics needs more love from the publishers. Please let it start with you.
I rather like the XPH. Im not keen on all the extra races though. Id be in for a standalone optional Pathfinder Psionics book in any case.
Psionics is awesome, and it is core.
I don't mind it not being an option for others, like incarnum, but please don't miss out in core pathfinder by excluding psionics.
|
|
Psionics is awful, and it's not core.
I don't mind it being an option for others, like incarnum, but please don't sully core pathfinder with psionics.
Hate to disagree with you, but psionics has always been "core". It's been "core" since First Edition and Greyhawk. Remember the mind flayer, which is based on C'thulu? (Though the mind flayer is not in the SRD due to it being an intellectual property of the other guys, much like the gith races). Even the First Edition Monster Manual had psionic threats (Cerebral Parasites, Intellect Devourers, Shedu, Su Monkeys, and Thought Eaters, to name a few). It was only with Second Edition that it was relegated to the role of being supplemental.
All were asking is for more representation and that it begin with the "core" Pathfinder book. If you don't like psionics, then obviously you're not obligated to use it, but for those of us who do like it, we'd like the option for it to be there from the beginning for us to use, even if its in a small way.And for those that also say that psionics is the province of sci-fi, you may want to check out Katherine Kurtz's Deryni series as proof that magic and psionics can coexist in the same setting.
|
I would just like to throw my vote in for inclusion of the Soul Knife in the Pathfinder RPG book. I am a fan of psionics but with how big the book is going to be already, I am very willing to buy a second book filled with psionic goodness. I would just like to see at least a hint of Psionics in the base book and you could easily include a fluff sidebar on making the Soul Knife be Magic based instead of Psionic based for those that don't like the "idea" of psionics.