Clarification on Domain and School Powers

[Mactaka]

Do the clerics and wiz's in Pathfinder RPG get these powers in addition to their bonus domain/school spells and the domain power? or in lieu of them?

[FabesMinis]

I thought it was in lieu but I may be wrong.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Mactaka wrote:

Do the clerics and wiz's in Pathfinder RPG get these powers in addition to their bonus domain/school spells and the domain power? or in lieu of them?

You get the domain/school powers in place of the bonus spells. Trust me, you end up better off in the exchange.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Balabanto]

How are those domain powers affected by PRCs? Do they suddenly cut off, or do you need to remain in the base cleric class to retain them?

My recommendation is that it's stay in cleric or lose it.

Oh, and one more thing: Can we expect a big book of Pathfinder PRCs at some point that are intrinsic to the world (as long as I'm on the subject)?

[Shisumo]

Yeah, I'm really curious here: the class descriptions all talk about domain and spell school abilities being tied to class levels, but the descriptions in the Magic chapter use "caster level" - which produces all sorts of weirdness, from PrC questions to the use of ioun stones and Varisian tattoos. Are these supposed to be class level benefits, and thus restricted to characters who don't multiclass?

[Rhavin]

I vote that they be tied to class levels, gives much higher incentive towards playing classes strait through.

[Radavel]

I noticed that some of the first level school powers and domain powers granted to wizards and clerics, respectively, do not specify if the ability is “at will” or has a use limit.

Do we take it that the intention is to give these characters "at will" supernatural abilities because of this omission?

[FabesMinis]

Class levels makes sense, as it is a class power.

[Tharen the Damned]

On page 47 it says that the Shool powers have a DC equal to 10+ spell's level + the Casters CHARISMA modifier?

Shouldn't this be Intelligence bonus for Wizards?

Their devotion is defined through extensive learning and study of the nature of magic.

This also would mean that Cha will be an important Stat for the Wizard.

[Iridal]

Tharen the Damned wrote:

On page 47 it says that the Shool powers have a DC equal to 10+ spell's level + the Casters CHARISMA modifier?

Shouldn't this be Intelligence bonus for Wizards?

Their devotion is defined through extensive learning and study of the nature of magic.

This also would mean that Cha will be an important Stat for the Wizard.

True. It’s the wizard’s speciality. She must to be good with these effects! Wizard’s DC based in charisma will never be competitive. Abjurer specialist is better than enchanter. Why? School powers from abjuration school haven’t DC, but from Enchantment School...

Excuse me my terrible english. I’m not a native speaker.

[Kamelion]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Mactaka wrote:

Do the clerics and wiz's in Pathfinder RPG get these powers in addition to their bonus domain/school spells and the domain power? or in lieu of them?

You get the domain/school powers in place of the bonus spells. Trust me, you end up better off in the exchange.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

How do you feel this will impact the overall flavour of the cleric class? We haven't see the cleric spell list yet, but it seems to me that having domain powers instead of domain spells means that there will be less difference between clerics of different deities. Do you think that this is likely to be the case?

With domain spells, each cleric gets access to two domain spells at each spell level (each effectively a 1/day power), and has to choose which one to use. A topped-out 3.5 cleric has 18 of these to choose from - 2 at each spell level. In addition to this, each cleric also gets two domain powers. This, imho, gives clerics a decent level of diversity, making a cleric of Pelor very different from a cleric of Vecna.

(Actually, my personal feeling is that even this doesn't go far enough and I use the spontaneous domain spells option instead of spontaneous cure spells, but that's by the by.)

With the Pathfinder version of domain powers, each cleric only has at most 7 domain powers to choose from (some are 1/day, some aren't). These come at 1 per 2 levels up to 4th level, and then come at 1 per 4 levels up to 20th. Other than those powers, I am guessing that the cleric spell list is the same for each cleric.

While I like the idea of domain powers throughout the cleric's progression (there has to be a good reason to stay in the base class and not switch out to a prestige class at the earliest opportunity), I feel that replacing domain spells with domain powers dilutes the individual feel of clerics of different deities.

Different spells from different deities make for great flavour between clerics, and my feeling is that domain powers make clerics more homogenous.

How might it work if you keep domain spells, but still grant domain powers throughout a cleric's levels? The other classes in the alpha doc have received small power boosts, so I would guess that domain powers and domain spells would not overbalance the cleric unduly.

What do you think?

[Heather Goodman]

First of all, please forgive me if this question has already been answered. I have only been looking at this for a few minutes and had a question right away, and have not gotten a chance to look at all the posts. I would be grateful if someone could refer me to the answer to my question if it is out there already. Also is there a way subfolders could be added to the list to make searching for a post easier? You know have a section for Classes, Races, etc.

Here is my question:

Domain powers for a cleric are granted at levels 1, 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

So here is where I am confused.

Does this mean once you choose a domain you can only have access to one of the powers listed under a domain or all of them?

Also does each 'domain power' allow you access to a power in a domain you do not posses? So if I am a cleric of Desna and I choose Luck and Travel, can I choose something out of Good or Chaos or is it only one of the listed powers from those two domains?

Or are they giving you access to new domains? (Which is the way my mind immediately went.)

If it is giving you access to a new domain, why are there five domains listed and only 7 opportunities for domain powers?

Also given that some of the Gods have domains like, let's take Desna for example of Dream, are there plans to add the Dream domain later on? Or is five all she wrote?

Thank you in advance.
Heather

[Kamelion]

Kamelion wrote:

With the Pathfinder version of domain powers, each cleric only has at most 7 domain powers to choose from...

Typo - that should read "14 domain powers" :-)

[Kamelion]

Here's a thought: if you're going to replace domain spells with domain powers, why not have the domain powers come at the levels that the cleric would normally have received the spells (every odd-numbered level up to 17th)? That way you can squeeze a couple more in.

I dunno - maybe I'm just worrying about this one too much :-) It just seems to me that going from 9 spells per domain to 7 powers thins it out a bit much. Then again, some of the domain powers are useable more than once a day. I do like the concept! It would be good to get some solid playtest experience with this, I guess (which is tricky right now, as we're currently playing Mage: the Ascension. Oh well.)

[yellowdingo]

Actually, they should have got this right back in 3rd edition. Clerics should have had access to spells from the domain(s) of their god, Philosophy, or Idol exclusively.

Likewise the Wizard should have been restricted to core Spells to do with magic and the learning there of and a single school focus.

[Kamelion]

yellowdingo wrote:

Actually, they should have got this right back in 3rd edition. Clerics should have had access to spells from the domain(s) of their god, Philosophy, or Idol exclusively.

Likewise the Wizard should have been restricted to core Spells to do with magic and the learning there of and a single school focus.

Yeah, I much preferred the 2e approach of Spheres for clerics. It wasn't perfectly executed, but the idea that each cleric's spell list is primarily composed of spells specific to his deity, with a small number of general spells, is a great model to emulate. 3e, where the reverse is true (lots of general spells and only a few deity-specific spells) was a bit unfortunate.

If Pathfinder is going to change cleric spells at all, I'd like to see a resurgence of more deity-specific spells/powers, not less.

[Vendle]

I like the change to domain-based powers, and I think it adds a lot of individuality to the clerics that choose different domains. Since the topic here is on clarification,

Does a first level cleric gain the use of both his domain 1st level powers each day? I can difinitely see this being an advantage, for example a cleric with Air and Repose having a lightning touch always available and a limited use touch to put an enemy to sleep.

[Kamelion]

You know, the more I think about the domain powers system, the more I grow to like it. I still think that we could do with raising the number of powers from 7 per domain back up to 8 or 9, but that's just something of a niggle really. I'd also like to see what the core cleric list looks like. But consider me shifting to cautiously optimistic :-)

[Shisumo]

Tharen the Damned wrote:

On page 47 it says that the Shool powers have a DC equal to 10+ spell's level + the Casters CHARISMA modifier?

Shouldn't this be Intelligence bonus for Wizards?

Their devotion is defined through extensive learning and study of the nature of magic.

This also would mean that Cha will be an important Stat for the Wizard.

Bumping to see if we can get this question answered. It makes a hefty difference for playtest purposes.

[sanwah68]

Yeh, I would also like to add my vote to giving the cleric a few more powers along the way to 20th.

In terms of balance the wizard seems to have gained a lot more than the Cleric.

The wizard gains a Specialist bonus and spell abilities at 1st, 2nd and then every second level ie 1 specialist bonus and then 11 special abilities at 20th level for the loss of...well...nothing.

Whereas the Cleric gets no Domain bonus and an ability at 1st, 2nd, 4th then every 4th level (for each domain) ie no domain bonus and 14 special abilities at 20th level for the loss of 2 domain powers and 18 spells.

It just seems to be unbalanced as it stands right now.

[Lilith]

I like the number of powers for clerics and wizards. What I do not like are the following:

1.) Charisma being required for school powers. Shouldn't this be Intelligence?
2.) First level school powers being Supernatural abilities? Baroo? Shouldn't this be spell-like abilities? I'm also not fond of no built-in cap. An evoker could spam flame ray and be an unstoppable pyromaniac. An abjurer could "bubble up" indefinitely. :(
3.) Domain powers are very nice and flavorful, but I have an issue with the "never ending abilities." A per day limit would be better - keep the never-ending abilities for orisons and cantrips.

I have more, but it's for other areas of the rules.

[Modera]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Mactaka wrote:

Do the clerics and wiz's in Pathfinder RPG get these powers in addition to their bonus domain/school spells and the domain power? or in lieu of them?

You get the domain/school powers in place of the bonus spells. Trust me, you end up better off in the exchange.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I'm still slightly confused. So one gets the domain/school powers in place of the bonus spells. What about the old domain abilities (like the good domain gave +1 to caster levels of all good spells)? The only reason I ask is because some PRC depend on some of the old domain power... it's not that big of a deal, I was just wondering.

[Jordan Murrin]

Lilith wrote:

I like the number of powers for clerics and wizards. What I do not like are the following:

1.) Charisma being required for school powers. Shouldn't this be Intelligence?
2.) First level school powers being Supernatural abilities? Baroo? Shouldn't this be spell-like abilities? I'm also not fond of no built-in cap. An evoker could spam flame ray and be an unstoppable pyromaniac. An abjurer could "bubble up" indefinitely. :(
3.) Domain powers are very nice and flavorful, but I have an issue with the "never ending abilities." A per day limit would be better - keep the never-ending abilities for orisons and cantrips.

I have more, but it's for other areas of the rules.

The "no built-in cap" on the first level school powers solves the problem of the wizard hanging out at the back of the party waiting until the 30th and last encounter to fire off his two spells / day. First level wizards in 3.5 are nothing but a drain of experience points.

[Ke'ale]

My necromancer would like to know: if he can control 8 HD of undead per caster level, where do they come from? If he meets a dwarf skeleton in a dungeon while first level, say, can he gain control of it a la an evil cleric? Or does he have to wait until he can create his own?

[Lewy]

Jordan Murrin wrote:

Lilith wrote:

I like the number of powers for clerics and wizards. What I do not like are the following:

1.) Charisma being required for school powers. Shouldn't this be Intelligence?
2.) First level school powers being Supernatural abilities? Baroo? Shouldn't this be spell-like abilities? I'm also not fond of no built-in cap. An evoker could spam flame ray and be an unstoppable pyromaniac. An abjurer could "bubble up" indefinitely. :(
3.) Domain powers are very nice and flavorful, but I have an issue with the "never ending abilities." A per day limit would be better - keep the never-ending abilities for orisons and cantrips.

I have more, but it's for other areas of the rules.

The "no built-in cap" on the first level school powers solves the problem of the wizard hanging out at the back of the party waiting until the 30th and last encounter to fire off his two spells / day. First level wizards in 3.5 are nothing but a drain of experience points.

Strongly disagree, giving these powers no daily limit is just way too powerful. Clerics were strong anyway and this makes them stronger. Wizards should be careful with magic (and they get the 0 level stuff anyway now). You're just making them into cannons, which is a mistake 4th Ed is making. The comment for 2 above is a real concern.

Lewis.

[French Wolf]

Can I echo the comments from others about the arcane powers being Charisma based? I'd like to know the reasoning behind something which adds a level of complexity.

Surely this was an opportunity to simplify and have cleric domain powers based on wisdom and wizards arcane powers based on Intelligence.

By the way, I am glad that clerics can now take their god's favoured weapon. That is a nice touch.

[vagrant-poet]

Jordan Murrin wrote:

The "no built-in cap" on the first level school powers solves the problem of the wizard hanging out at the back of the party waiting until the 30th and last encounter to fire off his two spells / day. First level wizards in 3.5 are nothing but a drain of experience points.

I agree with that, and fire ray isn't all that spectacular, and to use it you cant cast from your prohibited schools and you have to be an evoker. However maybe 1d4 +1 damage per three caster levels would be more appropriate, touch hits easily enough that you could easily eclipse magic missile at early levels, and a limitless ability shouldnt be as good as something you use a resource (spell slots) for.

My concern with the schools is their theme, the conjurer aint that conjurer-ey, and the enchanter ain't that enchanting.