It was the best of bites, it was the worst of bites...
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The presence of imps was due to the presence of Acadame.
Hellknights believe in reneforcing ALL laws not just evil or good ones.
Besides anyone remember Crossgen's Ruse? where the mini gargoyles ate all the pidgeons.
Cold Steel gets what I was aiming for. Thanks! :)
Crossgen's Ruse? I know not of this thing.
Yeah, that's WAY too political. It's also demonstrably false. Furthermore, there are massive segments of US society and government that could easily be painted with the lawful good brush. MOST cops aren't corrupt, for instance. And the vast majority of them get into the profession to help society. That's lawful good. Even if you have no way to pay for the treatment you receive, if you go into an emergency room with traumatic injuries, American Hospitals are required by law to do everything they can to save your life. That's lawful good. When your house catches on fire, or someone kicks in your froont door with a knife, or your toddler decides the advil looks like brown M&Ms, you can call 911 and firefighetrs, paramedics, and/or police show up and HELP YOU. That's lawful good. You get put on trial for something, and you are presumed innocent under the law (yes, imperfect members of the system have caused unjust outcomes, but as the law is written, it itself is highly just). That's lawful good. A Tsunami mangles a huge swath of territory halfway around the world that's NOT loaded with natural resources and both the government and private citizens open their pocketbooks and send aid in HUGE numbers, both financially and personally. That's lawful good, if not neutral good. A power-mad dictator invades and conquers huge chunks of Europe and America mobilizes an ENTIRE GENERATION to save countries that have spit on us since. If THAT isn't lawful good, I don't know what is. My country isn't perfect, but it sure as hell isn't evil, either.
EDIT: Oh, and as the final piece of icing on the cake, whether you're from here or from a foreign country, it doesn't matter. Nobody is going to make you disappear, or, for that matter, kick in your door and gun you down, simply for...
I don't think the motivations of the police are relevant...which is kinda the point. No doubt most guardmen in Korvosa are well-meaning; that doesn't change the fact that they support a status-quo of inequity.
American hospitals might be "required by law" on paper to do whatever they can to save you, but the quality of care you receive, insured or not, varies wildly with how much you can pay. Good on paper, full of benefits to the rich in practice...sounds like the definition of LE to me.
Same with the legal system...you're presumed innocent on paper, and yet your chance of avoiding prosecution is strongly correlated to the amount of money you can pay for a defense, and what color you skin happens to be. Fair on paper, let full of holes the powerful use to thier advantage. LE.
The charitable actions of private citizens are not relevant to the discussion; we're talking about the alignment of the government.
In WWII, we didn't mobilize anything other than material aid until directly attacked and it became a matter of self-defense. In fact, Hitler conquered Poland, France, Austria, and who knows where else and we remained isolationist. We stood by while millions were murdered. To suggest the United States involvement in WW2 was altruistic is revisionist *at best.* Frankly, I'm not sure how this relates anyway...
If you had read my profile, you would have seen that "your" country is my country too...and I'd like to fix some of our problems. In order to do that, we have to be honest with ourselves. If you honestly believe the modern United States is LG, then you're fooling yourself. My appraisal would largely be LN to NG citizens under a LN to LE government...*exactly* like Korvosa.
And you're right...no one is going to show up at my house and "disappear" me for speaking up...yet. But there sure seems to be a large chunk of people bound and determined to make sure the machinery for doing just that gets put in place to "protect" us.
I don't think the motivations of the police are relevant...which is kinda the point. No doubt most guardmen in Korvosa are well-meaning; that doesn't change the fact that they support a status-quo of inequity.Ah. You're a communist. I can stop debating with you now, because there's no point.
That is the possibly the most ill informed comment I have heard, well certainly today, if not this week. Bugleyman's comments where accurate and fair. Your accusation that he is a communist based upon the presented information, aside from being farcical and anachronistic (I mean, what is this, the McArthy era?), is ungrounded. It would be like me calling you a fascist based upon what you have said.
And with regards to the idea of America being a NG to LN society headed by a LN to LE government. I would say there is further reason to hold that it is a good analogy.
- While America gave a great deal of money to those who suffered in the Tsunami, they gave proportionally less that most developed countries.
- America's government has in the past been a state sponcer of terrorism and engaged in assassination.
- Guantanamo bay has been referred to as an Anomaly, even by America's closest allies, (which is a polite way of saying 'a human rights abuse we are uncomfortable with.')
- America has used extraordinary rendition to create a set of conditions where it is legal for them to use torture to extract information.
- America can be argued not to be a democracy, but rather a polyarchy (Noam Chomsky.)
It is certainly possible to argue exactly what Bugleyman has argued, and you loose all credibility when you sum his views up as an erroneous insult.
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I don't think the motivations of the police are relevant...which is kinda the point. No doubt most guardmen in Korvosa are well-meaning; that doesn't change the fact that they support a status-quo of inequity.Ah. You're a communist. I can stop debating with you now, because there's no point.That is the possibly the most ill informed comment I have heard, well certainly today, if not this week. Bugleyman's comments where accurate and fair. Your accusation that he is a communist based upon the presented information, aside from being farcical and anachronistic (I mean, what is this, the McArthy era?), is ungrounded. It would be like me calling you a fascist based upon what you have said.
And with regards to the idea of America being a NG to LN society headed by a LN to LE government. I would say there is further reason to hold that it is a good analogy.
- While America gave a great deal of money to those who suffered in the Tsunami, they gave proportionally less that most developed countries.
- America's government has in the past been a state sponcer of terrorism and engaged in assassination.
- Guantanamo bay has been referred to as an Anomaly, even by America's closest allies, (which is a polite way of saying 'a human rights abuse we are uncomfortable with.')
- America has used extraordinary rendition to create a set of conditions where it is legal for them to use torture to extract information.
- America can be argued not to be a democracy, but rather a polyarchy (Noam Chomsky.)
It is certainly possible to argue exactly what Bugleyman has argued, and you loose all credibility when you sum his views up as an erroneous insult.
It's not an insult. An oversimplification, maybe, but if you believe that the only way to make things okay in the world is to take resources from people with more and give them to people with less until everybody has the exact same amount of everything, that's communism. It's repackaged as a any number of other things, but that's what it is. And while by NO means am I a member of the upper class ("working class" would probably be where you'd slot me in, economically) nor do I come from an upper class family, in this country, people are in that position primarily because either they or someone in the last four generations worked their butt off to get there. Being wealthy does not make you evil (and I assert this again, I am by NO means wealthy. I drive a 10-year old car, rent my residence, and draw less than $35k a year in income). But people on the left LOVE to forget that (despite the fact that some of them lead the life of riley; Warren Buffet and George Soros come to mind), so we have no common frame of reference. It's obvious he and I (or you and I) are going to have no luck convincing each other of ANYthing. You people look at America and see the most hideously evil society humanity has ever produced (or maybe you reserve that for Israel). I see that as so incredibly wrong that it's laughable (and that's not hyperbole; I do find the idea that the US is worse than Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to be FUNNY.). Yes, it's imperfect. So has every other society been, and this one is a hell of a lot LESS imperfect than most. Still, if I wanted to latch onto some things and make the country out to be LE, here's what I'd use:
State-sponsored infanticide (federal funding for abortion)
Selective suppression of majority religious belief (any religious group except Christians can put up symbols all over the place and be fine. They're installing special rooms in airports for prayer mats & foot basis for Muslims to use. Major universities are making women-only gym hours for muslims to work out. If a Christian group asked for any of this, there's be a huge Hue & Cry. Put up a nativity scene and prepare to be made to take it down. Ditto the ten commandments, etc.)
Double standard. "Independents" and Democrats crossed the aisle and voted in the G.O.P. primary. Nobody said anything. When the reverse happened, the press started talking about throwing people in jail.
Referring to those who disagree with the reactionary, shoddily-supported theory of man-made climate change as "deniers" and trying to suppress them.
And, yes, we did sponsor what later turned into terrorists in Afghanistan. I seem to remember there being a movie about a democrat named Charlie Wilson being largely responsible for that. We allied with Russia to stop the Nazis, too. Sometimes you have to take the allies you can get to fight someone worse.
And before you call me a crazed crackpot and say all of my sources are fringe loonies, be aware that I feel the EXACT same way about yours. And I will take my "fringe loonies" (Ronald Regan, Rush Limbaugh, James Dobson, Carl Rove, Dick Cheney, the Heritage Foundation) over yours (CAIR, Harry Reid, Noam Chomsky, Kurt Vonnegut, George Soros, Michael Moore) ANY day of the week and twice on Sundays. So let's ALL just drop this and go back to talking about gaming, okay?
Firstly, i don't call people crack pots, even when in the case of creationists and flat earthers it is so hard to keep a straight face it hurt.
Secondly you make massive assumptions about my views on america, I, in general consider it to be a promising young nation, which has a lot which is good about it.
As an academic, who's field of research boarders on Climate change, i really have to say that all the evidence i have seen points heavily towards man being a major factor in global climate change, a fact which the americian goverment is starting to slowly take notice of.
However, to get off the subject and back onto D'n'D, i will leave you with this thought, if you consider a retired, second rate actor( Ronald Regan) to be a more relighable source than one of the great academics of our times (Noam Chomsky) then you'll forgive me if i take your views on this with a pinch of salt ;)
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Firstly, i don't call people crack pots, even when in the case of creationists and flat earthers it is so hard to keep a straight face it hurt.
Secondly you make massive assumptions about my views on america, I, in general consider it to be a promising young nation, which has a lot which is good about it.
As an academic, who's field of research boarders on Climate change, i really have to say that all the evidence i have seen points heavily towards man being a major factor in global climate change, a fact which the americian goverment is starting to slowly take notice of.
However, to get off the subject and back onto D'n'D, i will leave you with this thought, if you consider a retired, second rate actor( Ronald Regan) to be a more relighable source than one of the great academics of our times (Noam Chomsky) then you'll forgive me if i take your views on this with a pinch of salt ;)
EDIT. Fine. If letting you have the last word will end this, so be it.
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Friends, friends, can't we leave our real-world politics to the voting booth? Korvosa doesn't exist in the real world. Real world politics and ideologies (ESPECIALLY modern-day ones) really don't mesh well with Golarion. :\
So let's go back to discussing the fantasy city of Korvosa and its inconsistencies. ^_^
Besides anyone remember Crossgen's Ruse? where the mini gargoyles ate all the pidgeons.
I do remember that series, I thought it was a pretty interesting take on Sherlock Holmes - mixed with a pinch of fantasy and pulp.
When the Imps and Pseudodragons were mention in Korvosa, that's the same background concept I thought of - something creepy, but taken for granted by the citizens of the city. Like pigeons would be in a large city.
Friends, friends, can't we leave our real-world politics to the voting booth? Korvosa doesn't exist in the real world. Real world politics and ideologies (ESPECIALLY modern-day ones) really don't mesh well with Golarion. :\
So let's go back to discussing the fantasy city of Korvosa and its inconsistencies. ^_^
Sure, sorry.
Can i ask, what is paizo's general feel about alignment?
Nearly every other game has either moved to more shades of gray mortality systems or left them at the door.
Is there a good reason to keep it (as is)?
This entire discussion was sparked because tht alignment of the city didn't make sense to some. Since morality is a fairly personally influenced thing, this is not really suprising.
It does highlight that either dropping alignment or in someway perhapes giving it third axis would be useful.
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Sure, sorry.
No worries. ^_^
Can i ask, what is paizo's general feel about alignment?
I think we see it as a tool that unfortunately a lot of people (and I'm not saying anyone who has posted in this thread is among those people) use as a crutch. We tend to create a character or nation or city with a specific idea in mind and then try to figure out what alignment it belongs to, although we go the other way nearly as often. ;) And, of course, no two people at Paizo agree about what each alignment means either. ;D
Is there a good reason to keep it (as is)?
Probably not. I know that I won't be using it in the future for my games, and personally I hope we either drop it or rework it for PRPG.
This entire discussion was sparked because tht alignment of the city didn't make sense to some. Since morality is a fairly personally influenced thing, this is not really suprising.
I understand. We've had some slightly heated discussions about alignments in the office, so we know all too well how these kinds of discussions occur. :)
It was the best of bites, it was the worst of bites...You win the thread!
Ahem.
This reminds me of a story from London in the mid-eighteenth century. As sailors were exploring the world, they brought back with them stories of horrible beasts. In one case they apparently brought back an actual beast as well.
It seems some type of "sea serpent" followed some ships up the Thames and actually capsized a few small boats and reportedly munched on several people who fell into the river. One newspaper even described a "monstrous tentacled fiend pulling passersby from the walkways". It caused such a sensation that an expedition was organized to find the beast and kill it.
Eventually the creature was spotted and several boats converged. Between concerted weapons fire, and a few brave harpoon strikes, the thing was killed. When pulled out of the river, it was found to be an immense creature of unknown type stretching some thirty feet and weighing over a ton. No-one was quite sure how to dispose of the carcass until one enterprising German immigrant (a butcher by trade) volunteered to remove it from the town. The man's profession prompted this remark from the local broadsheet: "It was the beast of Thames; it was the wurst of Thames."
Perhapes a fluid measure, one that changes according to player actions. That would allow alignment based attacks to continue to function.
like pendragons virtues or honour in L5R.
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Can i ask, what is paizo's general feel about alignment?
I think the nine alignments are one of the games greatest and most iconic strengths. Sure, people argue about what they REALLY mean, but the nine alignments are one of the few parts of the game that are SO ICONIC that they relatively frequently pop up in mass-media or pop culture. Plus, despite the fact that a certain subset like to argue about what they really mean... after decades of use, they're pretty self-evident to long-time players.
Nearly every other game has either moved to more shades of gray mortality systems or left them at the door.
Sure, and that's fine for other games. There are some things I think that 3.5 and games based off it should retain, if they want to retain the "feel" of D&D. Alignment is one of those things. Two others: class-based characters and 10.5 being the average ability score for a human.
Is there a good reason to keep it (as is)?
Nostalgia. Every time we did a nostalgia-heavy issue of Dragon or Dungeon, it sold VERY well. Nostalgia = $$$.
Can i ask, what is paizo's general feel about alignment?I think the nine alignments are one of the games greatest and most iconic strengths. Sure, people argue about what they REALLY mean, but the nine alignments are one of the few parts of the game that are SO ICONIC that they relatively frequently pop up in mass-media or pop culture. Plus, despite the fact that a certain subset like to argue about what they really mean... after decades of use, they're pretty self-evident to long-time players.
Nearly every other game has either moved to more shades of gray mortality systems or left them at the door.Sure, and that's fine for other games. There are some things I think that 3.5 and games based off it should retain, if they want to retain the "feel" of D&D. Alignment is one of those things. Two others: class-based characters and 10.5 being the average ability score for a human.
Is there a good reason to keep it (as is)?Nostalgia. Every time we did a nostalgia-heavy issue of Dragon or Dungeon, it sold VERY well. Nostalgia = $$$.
That last bit, is possible the best arguement i have ever heard for retaining it :) and its an excilent reason for you too retain it :)
Unfortunately, it doesn't make me personally feel like its any less of a silly system.
I keep picturing the pesky monkeys that hang out around Indian temples. One of those could tear you a new one.
I see the imps not wanting to kill their meal ticket or upset the population by killing except in defense. Stealing stuff from open windows, grabbing food from unattended carts, hanging out in groups to share and spread gossip while smoking little clove cigarettes, or even swiping clothes off the clothesline that was left out after dark. In fact envision a few enterprising gnomes making a imp bar for profit.
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Can i ask, what is paizo's general feel about alignment?I think the nine alignments are one of the games greatest and most iconic strengths. Sure, people argue about what they REALLY mean, but the nine alignments are one of the few parts of the game that are SO ICONIC that they relatively frequently pop up in mass-media or pop culture. Plus, despite the fact that a certain subset like to argue about what they really mean... after decades of use, they're pretty self-evident to long-time players.
Nearly every other game has either moved to more shades of gray mortality systems or left them at the door.Sure, and that's fine for other games. There are some things I think that 3.5 and games based off it should retain, if they want to retain the "feel" of D&D. Alignment is one of those things. Two others: class-based characters and 10.5 being the average ability score for a human.
Is there a good reason to keep it (as is)?Nostalgia. Every time we did a nostalgia-heavy issue of Dragon or Dungeon, it sold VERY well. Nostalgia = $$$.
I like alignment system as a guideline and would probably only use it as such in my games, but the real problem you get when you decide to remove it is all the spells and effects that rely on the diffrent alignemnts to function.
Imps aside....
The Temple of Asmodeus sacrificed thirteen virgins at their dedication ceremony, sparking rioting so severe that the government had to pay to have those virgins raised. The majority of them *were* raised, suggesting that they were not willing sacrifices as the Temple had claimed.
And then this exquisitely Lawful city did...what? Apparently, nothing.
Korvosan law seems strangely impotent. If you're a bit impressive you can lie publically, cause massive civil unrest, cost the government thousands of gold, and it doesn't seem to matter.
This was the detail that convinced me Varisia would be better off without Korvosa. That, and its treatment of its neighbors. The Shoanti are right: burn the place down.
(I think it's also a very poorly considered detail, because it establishes that the government has access to Raise Dead and will use it if the alternative is rioting--which makes the plot of Edge of Anarchy hard to understand.)
Mary
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The Temple of Asmodeus sacrificed thirteen virgins at their dedication ceremony, sparking rioting so severe that the government had to pay to have those virgins raised.
This is untrue. The text says there were only threats of rioting. No rioting. Unlike Queen Ileosa, though, Queen Domina knew how to handle the people of Korvosa and keep them appeased. So she paid to have those virgins raised.
The majority of them *were* raised, suggesting that they were not willing sacrifices as the Temple had claimed.
Yes, just as the text says:
While all of these virgins volunteered for the dedication, some observers speculate that a few were charmed or otherwise magically compelled to join the "festivities."
And then this exquisitely Lawful city did...what? Apparently, nothing.
That's right. The people got what they wanted (the sacrifices were brought back to life). Since the city paid for the building's renovation and re-dedication, it wasn't exactly going to then turn around and punish the temple. Queen Domina got what she wanted out the deal, which was a strengthened presence of the church of Asmodeus in the city. There were undoubtedly people unhappy about the situation, but the vast majority were apparently appeased by the generous raise deads.
Korvosan law seems strangely impotent. If you're a bit impressive you can lie publically, cause massive civil unrest, cost the government thousands of gold, and it doesn't seem to matter.
This is based on how the real world works, really. If you're sufficiently wealthy enough or famous enough, you can can get away with murder; I'm not sure where you see massive civil unrest in Guide to Korvosa (there's the threat of civil unrest, but I don't remember writing about any actual unrest); and governments waste gold all the time (you know, pork barrel) and while the citizenry grumbles about it nobody usually cares enough to do anything about it.
(I think it's also a very poorly considered detail, because it establishes that the government has access to Raise Dead and will use it if the alternative is rioting--which makes the plot of Edge of Anarchy hard to understand.)
You're not differentiating between different rulers and their personalities. It's actually an excellently considered detail, because it shows the difference between an effective ruler (Queen Domina) and an ineffectual one (Queen Ileosa). My reasoning is behind the spoiler tag, so as to not spoil PF7.
That Domina was willing to put out the gold to cast 13 raise deads in order to quell the threat of rioting (she had to import the cleric, as the text says) where Ileosa wasn't willing to even pay for anything to stop actual rioting says a lot about their different rules. Also, remember that Ileosa WANTS the city to fall into rioting, so she has an "excuse" to begin her master plan (which I think comes out more in PF8).
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Remove those as well.
Actually, I'm currently running War of the Burning Sky without using alignment.
Protection from Evil becomes a simple Protection spell that works the same way against everybody.
I'm retaining alignment sub-types.
Spells that target specific alignments have very limited use, because they only work on those rare things with the appropriate alignment subtype.
Alignment is a big issue, and I've been playing for 26 years now and still don't find alignment to be "self-evident". In fact I think the punishments illustrated for certain crimes in Guide to Korvosa are the primary reasons why I have to adjust what I think of as "L/N" to what Paizo clearly thinks it is... Torture is part of many of those sentences. I would suggest in my opinion that Torture is only applied by evil people. That is purely my opinion, but it should be a pretty good example of where our definitions on alignment are going to struggle to match.
Korvosa employs state-sponsored torture, yet it is classified as a Lawful Neutral community. Fair enough. It is pretty clear that humanoid life is cheap on the streets of Korvosa, yet it is classified as a Lawful Neutral community. Fair enough... Gaedren Lamm runs a slave community of children and is known to the authorities who don't have time/wherewithal to deal with him, yet the community is classified as Lawful Neutral. Fair enough.
I am trying to understand how to reconcile all of this, and for me the thing that makes the most sense is that if you are unlucky enough to encounter the Korvosan Guard or the Hell Knights or even the Sable Company you better have your sh*t together, because if you don't they are going to come down hard on you. Killing is a perfectly acceptable way for the Korvosan Guard to keep the peace if faced with even the slightest resistance.
Personally, I don't see that as particularly Lawful or Neutral, but I think the authors have done a good job illustrating what their definitions are, and I intend to pass along to my players what those definitions are as well as I can.
Korvosa seems to be a tough place to live, and an easy place to die. I get more of a sense that Chaos reigns than Law, but when the Law shows up it is with a vengeance. Almost Judge Dredd like in its application.
Hopefully none of this was seen as any kind of complaint. I'm really, really enjoying both the Guide to Korvosa and the AP that I have so far (#7). I just didn't care for the remark that Alignment definitions were self-evident.
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I think it's fair to say the people of Korvosa and the law enforcement agencies are LN or LG. The government, with its institutionalized torture and whatnot, is probably clearly LE. Evidence to support this is that the torture no longer takes place publicly, because the people freaked out about it. I'm guessing most citizens of Korvosa don't even know it's going on.
Does that make it mesh up better with your understanding of alignments? :)
I think it's fair to say the people of Korvosa and the law enforcement agencies are LN or LG. The government, with its institutionalized torture and whatnot, is probably clearly LE. Evidence to support this is that the torture no longer takes place publicly, because the people freaked out about it. I'm guessing most citizens of Korvosa don't even know it's going on.
That would *never* happen in real life....err, wait, sorry, politics again. Since this thread is about understanding Korvosa I think pointing out real-world parallels is very much to the point, despite the implicit invitation for all the strawmen and false dichotomies that reared their ugly head the last time.
So I repeat: If you want to understand Korvosa, Look at the modern U.S.A. If fact, one could almost conclude the parallels are too numerous and too obvious to be coincidental...
I think it's fair to say the people of Korvosa and the law enforcement agencies are LN or LG. The government, with its institutionalized torture and whatnot, is probably clearly LE. Evidence to support this is that the torture no longer takes place publicly, because the people freaked out about it. I'm guessing most citizens of Korvosa don't even know it's going on.
Does that make it mesh up better with your understanding of alignments? :)
Yes, it seems the issue is more one of defining which group of people the LN tag applies to and to which group of people other alignment tags apply.
For example I felt the Korvosan Guard was Lawful Neutral, but since they interact more frequently with the general populace they had "good" tendencies, but I see the Lawful Neutral Hell Knights as having "evil" tendencies, and although I am reserving judgement on all of this I saw the Sable Company as potentially being a Lawful Good organization.
It was my understanding that the government was whatever the ruling monarch told it to be. To some extent this impacts how the Korvosan Guard behaves, and is why the Sable Company may withhold its fealty depending upon how they perceive the new ruler. And of course the Hell Knights are immutable.
In terms of the general populace I interpreted what has been presented as "people will do anything for wealth", and I still struggle to reconcile that with a "Lawful" approach. Perhaps I'll change my view to "people will do anything for upright money", but since the heroes deal primarily with scum the overwhelming impression of a well-developed and organized underground criminal element comes on more strongly than perhaps it should.
It's been my experience that societies become more "lawful" when perceiving an outside threat, and more "chaotic", or freedom-loving, when they can afford the "luxury."
What outside threat to the citizens of Korvosa perceive?
Well, I can think of a number of things offhand.
1) Hordes of angry Shoanti.
2) Undead from the Gray District
3) Asmodeus
4) Riddleport Pirates
It's been my experience that societies become more "lawful" when perceiving an outside threat, and more "chaotic", or freedom-loving, when they can afford the "luxury."
What outside threat to the citizens of Korvosa perceive?
Probably the same outside threat similiar, real-world societies perceive: Whatever is expedient.
Magnimar? The Shoani? Those dirty Varisians? Hell, pick any two...
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For example I felt the Korvosan Guard was Lawful Neutral, but since they interact more frequently with the general populace they had "good" tendencies, but I see the Lawful Neutral Hell Knights as having "evil" tendencies, and although I am reserving judgement on all of this I saw the Sable Company as potentially being a Lawful Good organization.
Yes, that is exactly what I was aiming for. :)
It was my understanding that the government was whatever the ruling monarch told it to be. To some extent this impacts how the Korvosan Guard behaves, and is why the Sable Company may withhold its fealty depending upon how they perceive the new ruler. And of course the Hell Knights are immutable.
Yes! Yes! A thousand times yes!
In terms of the general populace I interpreted what has been presented as "people will do anything for wealth", and I still struggle to reconcile that with a "Lawful" approach. Perhaps I'll change my view to "people will do anything for upright money", but since the heroes deal primarily with scum the overwhelming impression of a well-developed and organized underground criminal element comes on more strongly than perhaps it should.
That seems reasonable. :)
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Probably the same outside threat similiar, real-world societies perceive: Whatever is expedient.
Magnimar? The Shoani? Those dirty Varisians? Hell, pick any two...
Probably not Varisians, actually. Korvosans hardly consider Varisians a threat (unlike, say, the Shoanti). Your other examples are quite appropriate, though. :) Another threat would be Kaer Maga. The two cities WERE at war for a while, after all. ;)
Probably not Varisians, actually. Korvosans hardly consider Varisians a threat (unlike, say, the Shoanti). Your other examples are quite appropriate, though. :) Another threat would be Kaer Maga. The two cities WERE at war for a while, after all. ;)
Ah...I stand corrected. For some reason I got the impression that Varisians weren't really popular in Korvosa, but then again unpopular != threat. I haven't really absorbed the whole book yet, so the Kaer Maga thing hadn't occurred to me. From what little I know about Kaer Maga (from seven swords) they hardly seemed organized enough to have a war with anyone, but perhaps things were quite different in the past.
Just a quick comment on Korvosa, which I am still reading: Very nice work. I find reading it very inspirational, which to me is a real measure of a city supplement. I will submit a review once I've read the whole thing thoroughly.
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I really did like this work. Its been rare lately that I read a supp cover to cover, as I usually skim and stop here and there for tidbits, but I read this one all the way through.
see..now we need more of these...one for Magnimar, one for Riddleport, one for Kaer Maga, and that's just in Varisia.
I thought maybe one for Absalom was in the works.
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I think it's fair to say the people of Korvosa and the law enforcement agencies are LN or LG. The government, with its institutionalized torture and whatnot, is probably clearly LE. Evidence to support this is that the torture no longer takes place publicly, because the people freaked out about it. I'm guessing most citizens of Korvosa don't even know it's going on.
That would *never* happen in real life....err, wait, sorry, politics again. Since this thread is about understanding Korvosa I think pointing out real-world parallels is very much to the point, despite the implicit invitation for all the strawmen and false dichotomies that reared their ugly head the last time.
So I repeat: If you want to understand Korvosa, Look at the modern U.S.A. If fact, one could almost conclude the parallels are too numerous and too obvious to be coincidental...
I don't want to reopen old wounds so I won't go into details; but everything you said earlier about alignment in relation to 'worlds' other than Golarian: I totally agree with. Nice to know that there are still those brave enough to call it like they see it. QFT my friend. Hopefully the alignment will shift to a better one soon.
Probably not Varisians, actually. Korvosans hardly consider Varisians a threat (unlike, say, the Shoanti). Your other examples are quite appropriate, though. :) Another threat would be Kaer Maga. The two cities WERE at war for a while, after all. ;)Probably the same outside threat similiar, real-world societies perceive: Whatever is expedient.
Magnimar? The Shoani? Those dirty Varisians? Hell, pick any two...
I just hit the bit about the brief siege of Kaer Maga. It got left out of the history section completely, which leads me to believe it was less of a defining moment and more of a passing skirmish. I think the book also goes on to say relations have been gradually improving since the siege. From what I can see it doesn't look like Korvosa would consider Kaer Maga an enemy. Am I mis-interpreting what I see there, or was the animosity between the two possibly toned-down during editing?
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I just hit the bit about the brief siege of Kaer Maga. It got left out of the history section completely, which leads me to believe it was less of a defining moment and more of a passing skirmish. I think the book also goes on to say relations have been gradually improving since the siege. From what I can see it doesn't look like Korvosa would consider Kaer Maga an enemy. Am I mis-interpreting what I see there, or was the animosity between the two possibly toned-down during editing?
Keep in mind that I finished writing the book four months ago and haven't read through it in two, so your reading of it from yesterday puts the information fresher in your mind than in mine. Whatever the text says about Korvosa and Kaer Maga is correct. Interpret that information as you will. :)
Probably not Varisians, actually. Korvosans hardly consider Varisians a threat (unlike, say, the Shoanti). Your other examples are quite appropriate, though. :) Another threat would be Kaer Maga. The two cities WERE at war for a while, after all. ;)Probably the same outside threat similiar, real-world societies perceive: Whatever is expedient.
Magnimar? The Shoani? Those dirty Varisians? Hell, pick any two...
I just hit the bit about the brief siege of Kaer Maga. It got left out of the history section completely, which leads me to believe it was less of a defining moment and more of a passing skirmish. I think the book also goes on to say relations have been gradually improving since the siege. From what I can see it doesn't look like Korvosa would consider Kaer Maga an enemy. Am I mis-interpreting what I see there, or was the animosity between the two possibly toned-down during editing?
Even so that's not to suggest there wouldn't still be a large segment of Korvosa with a bone to pick with Kaer Maga. With a city as large as Korvosa there's really not a one-size-fits-all answer to what the entire city feels threatened by.
I just hit the bit about the brief siege of Kaer Maga. It got left out of the history section completely, which leads me to believe it was less of a defining moment and more of a passing skirmish. I think the book also goes on to say relations have been gradually improving since the siege. From what I can see it doesn't look like Korvosa would consider Kaer Maga an enemy. Am I mis-interpreting what I see there, or was the animosity between the two possibly toned-down during editing?Keep in mind that I finished writing the book four months ago and haven't read through it in two, so your reading of it from yesterday puts the information fresher in your mind than in mine. Whatever the text says about Korvosa and Kaer Maga is correct. Interpret that information as you will. :)
Wow...four months. That makes sense, but sometimes I forget the lead time. Anyway, thanks for the input, and thanks for writing the book. :)
Regarding the Imp and Pseudo-dragon situation, as i recall either on the blog or in anotehr thread was a feat for pseudo-dragons called "Imp Slayer". Essentially, sharpening claws/horns/teeth on silver and iron accents around the city and pilfering sips of holy water from various temples granted some pseudo-dragons the ability to bypass the imps' DR. WHich i found to be a very interesting concept and one that presents interesting story of pseudo-dragons having champions who fight the imps in exchange for tribute from the other pseudo-dragons.
Regarding korvosan imps in general...Imps are neither stupid nor terribly impuslive beings. They are devils and even minor devils are methodical and rarely do anything without a very good reason for doing so. Why murder a commoner when you can bargain with it instead and gain a foothold on its immortal soul (leading to possible promoition later). I think the biggest nuisance aspect of the imps would be these flying little pests constantly trying to get you agree to some bargain or another...like an infernal door-to-door salesman that just wont go away.
"Oh, gods! Not you again! No. I dont want to bargain for the love of the girl i am infatuated with, you little vermin. Now for the tenth time go away!!"
Their numbers are probably kept in check by the pseudo-dragons and the very students responsible for their presence. Easy to see a punishment for an infraction at the Academae being sent on "imp hunting" detail for a bit...which would be good practice for students.
-Weylin Stormcrowe