You're thinking in terms of yourself, and not in terms of being the Monarch of Korvosa. Think about it this way: assume you live in the United States, you find George Bush's wallet and want to return it. Isn't it a reasonable expectation that White House Security or the Secret Service would want to interview you to make sure you aren't a nutter or an assassin? Or that these security people would want to verify your statements to make sure those statements are truthful?
Actually, it is unreasonable of them to want that. People used to be able to do those sorts of things, just walk up to the President and shake the man's hand, just like the President used to be able to go out and enjoy things as a private citizen. I don't think we should measure things by the hyper-paranoid nature of the modern era we now take as commonplace and natural.
You're thinking in terms of yourself, and not in terms of being the Monarch of Korvosa. Think about it this way: assume you live in the United States, you find George Bush's wallet and want to return it. Isn't it a reasonable expectation that White House Security or the Secret Service would want to interview you to make sure you aren't a nutter or an assassin? Or that these security people would want to verify your statements to make sure those statements are truthful?Actually, it is unreasonable of them to want that. People used to be able to do those sorts of things, just walk up to the President and shake the man's hand, just like the President used to be able to go out and enjoy things as a private citizen. I don't think we should measure things by the hyper-paranoid nature of the modern era we now take as commonplace and natural.
While yes, people used to be able to walk up to the President and shake his hand, there have been very few monarchs in history that people could just walk up to.
The Queen is not the President.
The Queen is not the President.
Agreed. She has far fewer subjects than the American president (pretending that citizens are subjects for this purpose) and a far smaller security apparatus in place.
Actually, it is unreasonable of them to want that. People used to be able to do those sorts of things, just walk up to the President and shake the man's hand, just like the President used to be able to go out and enjoy things as a private citizen. I don't think we should measure things by the hyper-paranoid nature of the modern era we now take as commonplace and natural.
President of the United States, Historical or otherwise, is not a very good example. Such a person is presumed to be a commoner elected by his peers to govern. Not one appointed over the masses by divine right embodied in the blood that flows through their veins.
Edit: Dang Sean thought the same thing I did when he saw that post and beat me to the punch.
If you have to compare a Dungeons and Dragons Adventure to real life to clarify your issue you are probably trying too hard to have an issue with the Dungeons and Dragons Adventure.
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President of the U.S. aside, the meeting with the Queen serves a good purpose. Savage Tide and CoCT spoilers below.
No time to read through the entire thread, but I have a couple of comments.
First off, I just got my copy in the mail yesterday and am very psyched about this AP, much more interested than in the last one (which was good, but not quite as exciting as the last two Dungeon APs in my mind, perhaps because I'm still getting my brain around Golarion).
Although the opening takes some creative work for the DM, and the bridge from the first chapter into the rest of the AP is a touch tenuous without some careful attention to PC motivations and such, so far the adventure seems really cool. I especially like opening the game with a Harrow reading (effective marketing for a spinoff product, Paizo!)--that's one of the coolest AP introductions I've yet seen. I also especially like the opening villain--Mr. Logue, once again I can see the literary source of your inspirations, which will make it easy for me to envision Lamm and his Lambs.
In response to the OP, I've appreciated your valuable comments on the AoW thread and in other places. I guess you and your gaming partner have to go with what works for you. It seems to me that your GM is looking for holes in the writeup--which is only the first half of the preparation process I would ordinarily recommend. Adventures (not to mention APs) are by nature complicated and it's impossible to anticipate what won't work for a given gaming group or a given party. So part two of the preparation process has to be to fix the holes and tailor it for your group--and each DM's fixes are going to be different. I haven't finished reading the adventure yet--I know if I run it I will be doing some things to make the bridges and the setting work for my group of players and PCs, but a couple of read throughs and some time reading the boards and thinking about it while I'm driving or in the shower would be enough to sort it all out, I think.
As far as Korvosa being a place to love, well it's not the Shire, but even people who grow up in the lousiest places tend to love their homes, warts and all. At least some of them do. Obviously, this AP is more like the Untouchables trying to clean up Prohibition-era Chicago than like Pippin and Merry trying to organize the defense of the Shire, but then, even in the latter case there was treachery and corruption and tyranny at home to be dealt with. I should think that it wouldn't be too hard to invent a couple of friendly NPCs here and there that would remind the PCs what they are fighting for. There may be no Gandalf to guide them, but judging from what people say about Elminster these days, the friendly, powerful mentor isn't necessarily the best plot device for a D&D adventure either.
As far as "why aren't the following high-level spells being used?"--just because something is available doesn't mean it will be used. Think about how long it has taken to get effective AIDS drugs (or even condoms) to many third world countries suffering from that epidemic, all because it would be against the interests of some of the players involved. Or think about why we've never had a nuclear war. Or why the U.S. Army has never overthrown the government in this country. The existence of power or technology does not guarantee it will be used. [spoiler]There are any number of reasons why the churches might not raise the king--for starters, they don't even know that he didn't die of natural causes, but even if they suspect foul play, it wouldn't necessarily be in anyone's interest to bring Eodred back. This doesn't require collusion or conspiracy, merely a confluence of self-interest. As for finding Blackjack, it might well be in the interests of some of the authorities to let his vigilante justice proceed unchecked, and they might even intervene behind the scenes to make sure he isn't tracked down.
Of course, your GM has already convinced himself it won't work, so he's probably not going to change his mind at this point . . . I'm sorry to hear that, because I think this is going to be a fun AP when I run it. Sounds like your group wants a more simple, straighforward good vs. evil grudge match. This is fine if you enjoy it--some of us, though, really enjoy complex plots and shades of gray. The heroes can still be heroic even in the midst of all that. Indeed, that's what makes heroes heroic.
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There are any number of reasons why the churches might not raise the king--for starters, they don't even know that he didn't die of natural causes, but even if they suspect foul play, it wouldn't necessarily be in anyone's interest to bring Eodred back.
For some reason when I read this it made the switch in my brain click. Peruhain is right the clergy have no idea he didn't die of natural causes.
However what clicked for me was the thought that during Eodred's time of sickness all the churches probably tried to heal him without success. When all the divine power is focused on the King and it does nothing then why would they ever think that raising him would work. It would have been the Curse of the Crimson Throne again or just as stated natural causes.
For some reason when I read this it made the switch in my brain click. Peruhain is right the clergy have no idea he didn't die of natural causes.
A lot of people here seem to think that a death from a rapid onset disease that resembles advanced leprosy is a death of natural causes. I still disagree.
I think you are misinterpreting what people are saying.
Regardless of what anyone thinks the Queen has declared that the King has died of natural causes. That rather puts an end to the matter unless you plan on rebelling against the crown based upon supposition and suspicion.
The fact that the process of his death might be surprising or unusual does not mitigate the fact that the Queen has told you that she's accepted her husband's demise as a natural order of things, and so should you.
Furthermore, it may be of benefit to you to accept that in some cases plot, story, and background are more important than RAW. This is where you, the Dungeon Master, get to step in and tweak as required for your player subset. Surely you do not expect the authors to account for every possible contingency for every group out there. If you must invent a new magic item, undergarment of garbling detect poison/disease. Royal Diaper of Misinformation. His Majesty's Staff of Detection Turning.
People's unwillingness to accept the death of the king through a mysterious, unidentifiable poison that seems to manifest itself as a disease, but perfectly willing to accept the other elements of the adventure strikes me rather the same way as someone complaining about the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi, but enjoying the rest of the movie.
Furthermore, it may be of benefit to you to accept that in some cases plot, story, and background are more important than RAW.
Assuming that you were referring to my post just above yours, it may benefit you to accept that some people like to discuss loose plot ends and talk over various possible in game explanations for the same. A few Dungeon Masters even use some of the ideas brought up in these same conversations to improve the flow and background logic of their games.
People's unwillingness to accept the death of the king through a mysterious, unidentifiable poison that seems to manifest itself as a disease, but perfectly willing to accept the other elements of the adventure strikes me rather the same way as someone complaining about the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi, but enjoying the rest of the movie.
I disagree. I think that the former is somewhat illogical and unreasonable.
Havn't read all the posts.. but a lot. Just wanted to say something about why the forces of all the evil guys don't lay the smack down on the little group of PCs when they get the chance.
Hubris.
Yes.. the orc army could scry on you. They could send a contingency of 100 and stomp you out.
But, they don't. Because you're four nothings that don't warrant attention.
There are lots of reasons behind what evil guys do.
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Ok maybe not natural causes then. Still dying from a disease that so far has proved impossible to cure certainly falls into the "We can't help him" category. If I was the head of a temple and during the kings illness was asked to come a use all my best healing spells and none of them worked I wouldn't waste my time after he is dead.
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I always get confused with former and latter - is it the Ewok's you have a problem with - cause I loved Star Wars:Battlefront where I could blow the fuzzy bastards away:)
Later,
Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming
www.naturaltwenty.com
People's unwillingness to accept the death of the king through a mysterious, unidentifiable poison that seems to manifest itself as a disease, but perfectly willing to accept the other elements of the adventure strikes me rather the same way as someone complaining about the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi, but enjoying the rest of the movie.I disagree. I think that the former is somewhat illogical and unreasonable.
I use the first letter trick to remember:
Former is First
Latter is Last.
Also, Ewoks are 20th level rangers with Favored Enemy Stormtrooper.
I always get confused with former and latter - is it the Ewok's you have a problem with - cause I loved Star Wars:Battlefront where I could blow the fuzzy bastards away:)
I was being a little silly. :)
I was attempting to say that it was entirely logical and reasonable to complain about the ewoks in RotJ and still enjoy the rest of the movie.
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My problem is the six week gap between two of the major plot points. My PC's would go APE over that. They'd be all over that six weeks. They'd go out, do one or two adventures, and come home. They'd be massively overpowered for the next adventure, and be able to crush everything in it, assuming you don't use training rules, which I usually do.
Even if you do, at low levels, there's still about four weeks to run out to the countryside, beat up monsters, and come back. :)
I have seen this problem a number of times in some groups I've played with. I think the main problem is that the players see "fighter" at the top of the character sheet and conclude the character's regular job is to get into fights. Drives the folks who play item crafters mad. I suggest a house rule: every PC gets a bonus skill point which must be spent on craft or profession. This worked quite well in Savage Tide, and should be OK in an urban campaign. You just have to work with the players to make their day jobs interesting. For instance, point out that they might meet interesting folks as drill sergeants for the guards, or instructors for Vencarlo Orisini (Prof: Teacher), hear interesting rumors as chefs, tatoo artists, or perfumers (prof chef, craft caligraphy, alchemy), meet and case the homes of rich folks as artists (craft painting, pottery or sculpture), win the hearts and minds of the common folk (prof. healer with Healing skill, prof. farmer and an estate, or one of the craftsy trades like stonemason or carpenter and spreading the unskilled labor jobs like patronage). You do need to make an effort to come up with interesting NPCs and useful minor happenings this way. Try also to explain that a P&P RPG doesn't always divide the game world into "Town" and "dungeon," so sources of adventure aren't always obvious. This is D&D, not NetHack or WOW.
[...]
If the PC's decide to flee the city with Trinia, (A completely logical response), there's NO way to cover any of the events. The adventure completely derails, and your characters are running through the wilderness with a fugitive. How far will Ileosa go to catch them? What are her resources that she can use to do so? How powerful are these NPCs and what can she bring to bear?[...]
I like my villain designed up front so I know exactly what resources, powers, and abilities the NPC can bring to bear, plus, the PC's can kill Ileosa right there. Level 3 party, properly prepared, vs. Expert 2/Bard 4? She dies in ONE round. And if they won't ressurrect the king, they won't ressurrect her either. AP over. The PC's may or may not be over, but they won't be friends with the local law. If they fail in that...
I doubt they could also take Sabina, the fighter 10 standing right next to her. If you don't think she will be enough to deter mischief, I suggest you add some NPC in robes that scream Warning: Spellcaster, and maybe also make the throne a shield golem meat shield.
As for flight from Korvosa, they should be aware that travel is difficult. The Guard and the Hellknights are watching the roads, and the Sable Company could be searching ships. The navy might also start searching ships out by the chains at the entrance to the Bay by Veldraine. I could see the PCs hiding her on some transport out of town, but going with carries a bigger risk, since they are also known to the authorities. Also, that scene implies that the authorities are near; if they are seen, they might be able to claim she got away, but they probably need to split from her quick to avoid serious trouble.
Probably the most fun was the _Radiant_ space opera campaign (run in a homebrew) where the PCs started out as crew of a struggling tramp merchant starship, and ended up as major players in two different star systems (one highly civilized and connected, one a "lost colony."And after five years of play the PCs were pretty complicated people, with friends, lovers, enemies, family, culture clashes, hopes and fears.... The APs go by so fast, farm boy to archmage in 6 months, I just don't get that level of characterization.
Farm boy to archmage in 6 months.... Radian Space Opera....
I bet you loved Star Wars.
Pretty sure Luke went from farmboy to savior of the galaxy and X-Wing Fighter Pilot supreme that destroyed the Death Star in something silly like 6 months or less.
But seriously, no, an AP is never going to be like a 5 year long homebrew campaign. I've done both. Now I'm married with 1 (almost 2) kids and don't have time to do the homebrew campaigns like I used to. AP's are a savior now. I once wrote a 1000+ word file for a homebrew campaign over the course of 4 years. Paizo isn't going to ever hit that level of detail for me. But really, I think your constantly ranting on their logic is kind of flawed.
If they have a problem, it's that parts 3 and 6 of RotRL came in overlength and had to be brutally hacked down by someone that had not written them. James Jacobs had to truncate them and in doing so lost some of what was intended. That's what happens in the business. I don't find myself throwing down the books screaming, "Good God, why isn't this logical to my vulcan mind!" I find myself saying, "Wow, I wonder what was really supposed to happen with the Wendigo stalking the PC's before they hit the dwarves cabin and how about all that stuff in Xin Shalast I can tell has been carved away, all the backstory of Karzoug that is promised."
I just think you're going at this the wrong way. You write a lot of eloquent posts on here, with some of them even having valuable information in them. But, you seem to have a lot of rules-lawyering, nitpicking posts as well. Don't freat about Nick Logue's logic and refer to him as "the author" that said he "didn't care about logic," which isn't true, I read the post. Scold him for not following the guidelines and writing an adventure that exceeded the scope given that hard to be trimmed down.
How illogical is it for a queen to poison the king? How illogical is it for a demonic spirit the possess someone? How illogical is it for the good guys to get duped? These are staples of fantasy. It seems that if this isn't your cup of tea, you could get a different cup of tea, instead of pissing in this one and proclaiming how crappy Crimson Throne is going to be before it's even been released.
That's a fair point. I personally wouldn't run a path until I have all of the components in my hot little hands.
Here, here! I didn't even open the envelopes containing RotRL until I had 4 of them on hand and didn't start running it until I had read all of them. Curse of the Crimson Throne #1 is still tucked in a sealed envelope, in my magazine rack, where it will be staying for 3 or 4 more months.
Here, here! I didn't even open the envelopes containing RotRL until I had 4 of them on hand and didn't start running it until I had read all of them. Curse of the Crimson Throne #1 is still tucked in a sealed envelope, in my magazine rack, where it will be staying for 3 or 4 more months.
I recommend you crack it, Jaimsley. I'm not suggesting that you run it before you have all of the volumes if that's not your thing, but it might have some stuff that's useful to you in RotRL.
For example, I have an NPC cleric of Abadar who has gained some small importance to the PCs, and I'm very much looking forward to the article in volume 8 about him and his clergy.
For my Crimson Throne game I have a lot of thoughts I'm not ready to write down yet, but I do have a few comments I'd like to post right away for Mary.
1.) As a player, I'm disturbed when DMs complain about modules and authors. If the DM is cynical and skeptical about a campaign then it breeds malcontent amongst the players, and produces, IME, a poor campaign. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. As a result I never, ever do this in front of my players. If I'm going to run a campaign I'm going to sell it to my players as if it's the RPG experience of a lifetime.
2.) Please continue to critique future modules. If your DM is not running CotCT, please purchase the module. In fact, I would be willing to buy your subscription so that you can post lengthy reviews on the boards. Paizo is a great company because its staff and writers listen and respond to cynics; "Yes Men" fanboy flattery is shallow and a waste of boardspace, IMO.
Creative Director
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If they have a problem, it's that parts 3 and 6 of RotRL came in overlength and had to be brutally hacked down by someone that had not written them. James Jacobs had to truncate them and in doing so lost some of what was intended. That's what happens in the business. I don't find myself throwing down the books screaming, "Good God, why isn't this logical to my vulcan mind!" I find myself saying, "Wow, I wonder what was really supposed to happen with the Wendigo stalking the PC's before they hit the dwarves cabin and how about all that stuff in Xin Shalast I can tell has been carved away, all the backstory of Karzoug that is promised."
Actually... while you're correct that part 3 had to have a fairly large rewrite and edit due to the author writing an adventure and a half's worth of words... Part six did not have that problem. It is not truncated. What you see is what there was, for the most part. If there are errors or parts that don't make sense, it's because of an error during development where I wasn't as clear about something, but there wasn't much at all left on the cutting room floor after we were done with "Spiers of Xin-Shalast."
Personally, I don't think the "why don't they bring the king back to life?" question is going to come up in my game. My players are genre savvy enough to know that sometimes the king dies, that's how plots unfold. But if it does come up, I have a scene in mind, with three drunkards (maybe even Inigo Montoya, er, I mean, Grau Soldado) slumped over a bar...
"What I don't get is, why don't they just have the church bring the king back to life?"
"Well, well, thing is, you see, is that these spells don't work if'n the dead man died of old age."
"He didn't die of old age! He got sick."
"Whaddya think 'died of old age' means? Means he got sick!"
"But what if he got sick but didn't die of old age? What if King Eodred had a few years left in 'm before he got sick?"
"Well, to cast that spell, ya also need a diamond. A big one. Where'dya think they'd get it--just break it offa one of the crown jewels? No, they'd pay for it. With our taxes. Probably raise all our taxes. Again. And for what? 'ed die in a couple a years anyway! I tell you, keeping the Stirge King dead is the nicest thing that Queen Ilosa ever did for us."
Fun aside: My Firefox spellcheck recognizes "Inigo Montoya"!
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Nick,
I just finished reading it and I think it is great. I like the way the Queen is basically using the PCs for her own ends and they are working for the Evil Queen. I do not have a problem with logic or anything else. It begins a bit contrived but you always have to be a bit contrived to get a new group of PCs together and working in the same direction. I love the city falling apart thing. The brooch thing is also a bit contrived but the queen just uses the PCs to her ends and does not care if they survive their little tasks. It is all good...
Actually... while you're correct that part 3 had to have a fairly large rewrite and edit due to the author writing an adventure and a half's worth of words... Part six did not have that problem. It is not truncated. What you see is what there was, for the most part. If there are errors or parts that don't make sense, it's because of an error during development where I wasn't as clear about something, but there wasn't much at all left on the cutting room floor after we were done with "Spiers of Xin-Shalast."
Thanks for the reply James. I really love all the work on RotRL, just to let you know that. When I read part 6, I just got similar vibes as in part 3, where some things seemed cut down. The example of the wendigo allegedly being before the dwarven cabin and the paragraph discussing how we could learn about Karzoug's backstory and how to defeat him in Xin Shalst. My assumption had been those things were loose threads hanging from a larger manuscript that had been honed down.
It really means a lot to me that the good folks from Paizo are on here so frequently and reply to our concerns and comments so rapidly. I know you've heard this a million times by now, but it can't hurt for me to lop so praise on you as well. I'm 3 sessions into RotRL and my players are having a great time. It's definitely a refreshing turn of events after the last campaign we were all in - inexperienced DM at the reigns without the desire to put much effort into creating a homebrew campaign, though he refused to use published modules to help himself out. Now that I am back at the helm, people are loving the chance to experience everything Pathfinder has to offer.
Personally, I don't think the "why don't they bring the king back to life?" question is going to come up in my game. My players are genre savvy enough to know that sometimes the king dies, that's how plots unfold. But if it does come up, I have a scene in mind, with three drunkards (maybe even Inigo Montoya, er, I mean, Grau Soldado) slumped over a bar...
"What I don't get is, why don't they just have the church bring the king back to life?"
"Well, well, thing is, you see, is that these spells don't work if'n the dead man died of old age."
"He didn't die of old age! He got sick."
"Whaddya think 'died of old age' means? Means he got sick!"
"But what if he got sick but didn't die of old age? What if King Eodred had a few years left in 'm before he got sick?"
"Well, to cast that spell, ya also need a diamond. A big one. Where'dya think they'd get it--just break it offa one of the crown jewels? No, they'd pay for it. With our taxes. Probably raise all our taxes. Again. And for what? 'ed die in a couple a years anyway! I tell you, keeping the Stirge King dead is the nicest thing that Queen Ilosa ever did for us."
I am SO using this.
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Nick,
I have to tell you, my players and I loved the set up (no standard "meet in a a tavern") and they loved the Harrow reading. I drew the cards and actually got the Uprising card as an alignment match, giving them foreshadowing to what might come.
I guess I can't see flaws in the logic, and can come up with explanations for any "perceived" holes. I like the event-based, free-flowing style after the Lamm encounters. I guess, generally speaking, I see enough info' to guide me through rough spots if need be. Maybe I'm easy. *shrug*
thanks for the adventure, Mr. Logue!
Nick,
I have to tell you, my players and I loved the set up (no standard "meet in a a tavern") and they loved the Harrow reading. I drew the cards and actually got the Uprising card as an alignment match, giving them foreshadowing to what might come.
I guess I can't see flaws in the logic, and can come up with explanations for any "perceived" holes. I like the event-based, free-flowing style after the Lamm encounters. I guess, generally speaking, I see enough info' to guide me through rough spots if need be. Maybe I'm easy. *shrug*
thanks for the adventure, Mr. Logue!
Thanks for the kind words Mactaka! Glad you are digging Edge!
I guess I could have worse problems, such as ebola or rickets.
Rickets! No fun!
Bed bugs suck too!
Glad Edge is tempting you to the Curse Path! :-)
I have a concern about Edge of Anarchy. I'm gearing up to run the Rise of the Runelords adventure path and I happened to pick up Edge while I was at the gaming store and it's very good. My concern is that reading through Edge and future issues of the AP are going to make me want to run that before I finish RotR.
I don't know what I can do about this because I'm definitely going to be picking up issues of this AP. I mean, the gaming stores are all near Koreatown in Manhattan so it seems like such a waste to not stop by and see what's new in stock!
I guess I could have worse problems, such as ebola or rickets.
My group similar problems. We have eight-ish campaigns going, but only 2 days a week to play them...but Pathfinder seems to be the general cry for "What are we playing today?"
I'll be honest, once my job finally gets around to paying me (*cough*) I might just have to pick up Edge, if nothing else than to read. Political Intrigue always gets me buzzing.
I bet you loved Star Wars.
Pretty sure Luke went from farmboy to savior of the galaxy and X-Wing Fighter Pilot supreme that destroyed the Death Star in something silly like 6 months or less.
Are we talking Death Star 1 (yeah, less than 6 months) or Death Star 2 (about 4-5 years)?
[This post has been censored due to excessive brainsplat]
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Are we talking Death Star 1 (yeah, less than 6 months) or Death Star 2 (about 4-5 years)?
[This post has been censored due to excessive brainsplat]
Hehe I was just about to post about the same response, thankfully you beat me to it. My dignity remains intact. Now to get back to reading the latest Legacy of the Force book.
I'm not "that guy". You know that guy who just bashes others for not thinking the same way he does. However, I just don't understand why there are so many posts trashing this adventure. If my understanding is correct, this is a low level adventure. This aventure is written specifically to take advantage of Korvosa's size and depth. What I mean by that is sure, you "could" just run the adventure straight through exactly how the book was written OR you could take advantage of the Guide to Korvosa (If it costs too much money there's always you imagination's guide to Korvosa) and all the other web enhancements and ideas to bring the game together.
If you don't like something...change it! When I see people talking about say "why are there so many imps in this city it's crazy!!!" I say it's color. And why is it that every person assumes that an encounter table is a combat table? For example if you roll for a party encounter and you get imps, try something else, for example, a student of the acadamaie is in a heated debate with a street merchant over the price of some item or whatnot and a party member notices an imp sneaking over to filch something from the vendor's cart while the student is keeping him occupied. Yes, there could be a combat scene here. Or the party could call the guard and have the student arrrested creating a potential minor enemy for later. Or the party could follow the young student and threaten to go to the headmasters and have them expelled if they don't someday return the favor/offer bribe/give info/ect. There are obviously other options.
Also, in regards to the low level (to some) of various npc's it occurs to me that if you have the time to write numerous posts on the numerical issuses of a char or two you probably have time to modify their stats too. Oh, and for those of you out there who say that that will effect the challenge level I have two responses. One, fudge the EL. Or two, the alpha ruleset includes multiple advancement charts. Chars advancing too quickly? Use a slower one. Me, I ensure that story takes the place of number crunching so that the story is what is remembered. When my friends and I are talking about old games or adventures we talk about the great stories and characters and adventures - whether or not a particular scene made perfect sense (because real life ALWAYS does) just never seems to come up. Funny that.
Oh and before I jump off my soapbox one last thing, why even post that you dislike an adventure or a game? Especially on a site where you know the arthur is going to read it? If you don't like it, ok, well maybe it will give you an idea for your next game, or maybe an NPC you can use or something. Sorry again, to each their own.
I just want to say that my group is enjoying Korvosa and all that it has to offer. Yes I have made a few changes to the quest so far but they are ones tailored to my group and I have even added a few plot hooks that go to a couple side adventures as well. IMHO this is a well thought out opening quest to to introduce the characters to Korvosa (in 50 pages with artwork no less!)and I can't wait to run our group's next game tonight! Keep up the good work!
Mike
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Ok, I stopped reading this thread somewhere half-way through page 3.
When I was reading the module, I also got the impression of it being episodic, with one person giving missions to the party.
However, IIRC, the whole first installement spans several weeks. It's not that all this stuff is happening right after one another, this way giving you plenty of opportunities to fit the adventure to your group.
I also can't understand why people start a whole AP without having all the installements at hand. AP-adventures are not to be ment as stand-alone adventures, sure, you could use them this way, but I, as the the DM, know I WANT TO DM this AP, so I have to wait for all installements to get everything clear!
Anyway, I once prohibited the whole Enchantment/Charm school to my players, as I also find those spells kind of breaking the game.
And, with all this discussion running: Raise Dead should be of higher level in the PFRPG! IIRC a 9th level cleric can cast Raise Dead?! It should be a really higher level spell!!!
I guess I could have worse problems, such as ebola or rickets.
Rickets! No fun!
Bed bugs suck too!
Glad Edge is tempting you to the Curse Path! :-)
...I can't resist a post that has the word rickets in it.
Sorry, do carry on...
I'm not "that guy".
No, no. You are exactly "that guy". Almost by definition! Look:
- I just don't understand why
- If you don't like something...change it!
- why even post that you dislike an adventure or a game?
Wow. You even covered a bunch of the "that guy" gems we've all seen many times, on many boards!
Oh and before I jump off my soapbox one last thing, why even post that you dislike an adventure or a game? Especially on a site where you know the arthur is going to read it? If you don't like it, ok, well maybe it will give you an idea for your next game, or maybe an NPC you can use or something. Sorry again, to each their own.
Two reasons.
One - Others might have encountered the same issue and found a good way around it.
Two = To inform the authour and the Paizo staff of our complaints. If an AP is less useful for enough people thats bad for Paizo's financial health. Paizo thrives by being the best of the best, none of them like being criticized 'cause no one does but its in their best interests to at least consider the criticism and decide if its valid or a corner case situation.
Dungeon went through several good and bad periods - I don't think the Pathfinder APs can survive a bad period. They need to remain constantly within spitting distance of the top of their game.
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What I'd like to know is what has Nicolas Logue done to make so many people willing to spend their time putting down his adventures?
What he did was write an excellent adventure, and respond to feedback.
I don't think there are "so many people" putting down the adventure.
A small number of people have some issues with some parts of the adventure, which other people are helping to resolve. I'd like to think we are all friends here.
No need to fight y'all! I'm happy to lend some time to helping out anyone with questions. I appreciate the support though Andrew!
Did I miss anything salient since last time I posted here.
I've been a bit BUSY lately. Sorry about that. :-)
I have gone though several stages with this campaign. I went from being very excited about an urban adventure to being a little bit let down when I actually read the overview in ROTRL #6 to being excited again when I saw how it was starting to come together in Edge.
I can see some great chances for characters to really buy in to the place they grew up and have a great background in that city.
In most campaigns, the players come from different places and backgrounds, but this AP really gives them a reason to be together. I am going to encourage my players to really create interesting backgrounds where they have actually known each other from their childhood as one of Lamn's lambs...or a family member of one.
The Harrow cards are a great addition and prop and I am looking forward to using them in my game.
Luckily my players understand that there are certain "hooks" for adventures that get them started and don't get too focused on how "realistic" DnD can be...I mean come on we are geeks playing DnD.
One other thought, I love the fact that they are basically good people in a bad place. Why adventure in a city where everything is great, that is what the dungeons outside the city and wilderness is for in a city like that! Looking forward to seeing the next episode.
Going back to Mary's original post I think that I would have prefered to get her GM's perspective on things rather than channeling his frustration 2nd-hand.
Some really interesting discussions came about in the RotRL campaign boards as a result of some of her hard hitting critiques. But she was able to back her arguments quite well for the most part because she had unadulterated access to the content. The original post here has much more of a emotional boo'ing to it than her usual logical deconstruction.
Sorry you didn't dig playing this AP Mary, and I wish we could have heard more from your GM because we probably could have all generated some good ideas for fixing some of the holes you found as a group. I'm stoked for Second Darkness if you are GM'ing that...or if your GM for Curse of the Crimson Throne weighs in more for us all here.
All that being said I think anyone is doomed if they intend to play an entire AP with 16% of the material on hand that is ultimately required . That is some serious cowboy GM'ing. Way outside my comfort zone though. Luckily I have about another 8 months of RotRL so I can leach the awesome smartness out of all you pioneers here on the AP#2 boards.
From my point of view
The outliers (2person groups, 10person groups, rules lawyers, larp'ers, obscur conversionists) are always going to be..outliers. This doesn't make them less valuable or their concerns less important.
But to simply throw up your hands and storm out the door because an imp was statted up with no sidebar to turn him into an Imp Storm Trooper with:
- 16HD
- A 500page autobiography entitled Meh..It's a Damnation by HR Imps'n'stuff
- Exact bus fare
- And a necklace of non-detection
seems a bit over the top. If your groups demand more...give them more...not Paizo's fault if you can't fit their adventures to your groups. Group failures lie with us and us alone.
These boards are a great place to gain inspiration and ideas though so maybe we should spend less time on a overly QQing critique war and spend more time hashing out how big the fangs on BBEG #534 should be to adequately puncture our players? Or suggest fixes to the holes you find...
I just picked up the Guide to Korsova this past weekend and I'm a little puzzled. This is a suggested supplement for a player, and yet there is a sidebar about the Queen that reveals an awful lot about her... and this isn't even in the Secrets section. Is this kind of information truly public knowledge in the city? If I let my players read that, they're going to be incredibly suspicious when they come out to find the city in turmoil over the death of the king.
I felt the same way about the Guide to Korvosa. I have opted to parcel out information about the various entries in this resource after heavily redacting them myself. I would suggest this supplement is not entirely for player consumption.
So... to sum up for DMs reading this thread interested in a quick summary of proposed hacks to observed issues:
You might want to wait until you read 3+ modules before running this one, due to its complexity.
Lamm is a coming-of-age adventure for the heroes, who are putting the past behind them to focus on their futures. Emphasize the “unfinished business” quality of this background material your players are writing up. It’s the pilot, not the season one finale.
It’s okay if your players are confused and questioning. Their characters are not privy to what’s going on behind the scenes, they are emphatically not the center of world events for two modules, so they are forging a connection with what the characters are feeling.
Raise Dead hacks:
Foreground solutions: have Grau hang a lantern on any problems you think they might be having.
Go to Hang a Lantern TV Trope.
Either they'll agree and get all suspicious and into it or they'll decide that if the City Drunk believes it they must be wrong! Or they'll take the meta-textual hints that the DM's working on the problem and that there's an answer that they don't have access to yet.
Background rationales: Raise the Stirge King or hope the Strumpet grows up or does less damage. The major religions are waiting to see how this shakes out and don't want to throw a flask of oil on a raging fire of rioting. It looks like a death from old age. Well, none of the other spells worked, so it must be old age. Abadar gives away nothing for free and the Queen won't pay. King, "Would you want to come back to a dissatisfied wife so that you could die in excruciating pain AGAIN in a few years? No. I'll enjoy the afterlife, thanks."
Commune background rationales: A number of people who could cast this would not be doing so to SOLVE the situation but rather to TAKE ADVANTAGE OF the situation. Also, commune does not connect you with your God, but rather with a non-omniscient minion of your God who gives you answers to advance their cause rather than the unvarnished truth.
Don’t forget the misdirection effect on the Queen!
Give players a skill point to spend only on craft/profession or encourage them to do so, which allows you to pace the AP to your liking.
Locate object or creature: You have to have once been within 30 feet of the creature. It can’t cross running water. It must be a specific creature known to you. Locating objects requires specific and accurate mental image or first hand knowledge. Perhaps the superhero has an amulet of proof against detection? Perhaps he keeps his costume in a bag of holding or a box lined with lead? Or replaces it frequently? Perhaps “known to you” does not count when you only know the pseudonym?
I finally managed to run CotCT for my players. Its the first time Im able to run something in quite a few years, so I was (am!) quite excited
I have been reading the first 3 adventures and, really, the only problem Ive seen so far is with Lamm, or, more specifically, the very begining.
What I mean is, I felt Lamm was a great reason to get the players together, but not to KEEP them together. Ive seen someone else (Mary?) in this threat mention the disapointment on how fast the issue is delt with. It happened in char creation with two of of my 4 players. I explained to them they shouldnt base EVERYTHING in this vengeange/justice deal with Lamm. The issue was that, in the end of that part of the adventure (ran this thrusday in around a 1:30 hours session), they were like "eh... that was easy... now what?"
They were actually formulating all manners of reasons why Zellara found Lamm so easy while they looked for him for a long time (I played here with her varisian connections in the city as she was questioned about it) and even that Lamm planned his death from the begining
They actually showed little interest to the sight of fire, sounds of riots and such that closed up the game session, as they were puzzled with how fast they delt with the Lamm issue
Knowing it would happen (and now measuring their reactions), Im actually having a little trouble expanding their reasons to stick together
They are very RP-oriented, so simply saying "you know eachother, now go in adventures together!" wont do. To make things "worse", 4 of us are game designers, and Im the guy whos responsible for story and game content in our company, so you can guess what they expect/invision :P
To help undestand, thats our chars and how Ive been expanding their connections:
Human/Fighter - Chelaxian who moved to Korvosa to escape working for the infernal empire as a soldier. Accused of the murder of a chelaxian inspector. His old time friend disapeared. His other friend, Grau, had his family threatened, so retreated out of view. The whole deal probably related to the Arkonas (inspector and character's friend discovered too much)
Half-elf/Sorcerer-Undeath - Born of a minor noble girl who cheated on her Chelaxian fiancee with an elf from the local embassy. Accused of soem crime by her furious fiancee, hanged pregnant (connection to Hangman's Noose, which Ill run soon). He was born during the hanging, frail and weak. Raised in an orphanage. Escaped and made into one of Lamm's kids. Ran away to hide in the temple of Pharasma (notice undeath-Pharasma deal growing as the adventure procceeds)
Elf/Ranger - His fiancee was part of the Korvosa embassy and was killed. He managed to be transfered from Mireani forest to Korvosa to search for the killer. What he doesnt know is that Lamm had her killed because of her investigations into another "Curse" character (possibly the Arkonas, maybe related to Hangman's Noose)
Gnome/Bard - Came from Chelax to study Thissalonian history. His friend became a shiver addict and was found dead. He hid the reasons for this investigation. This char's player came up with his char minuted before the session, so I didnt go much into his plot yet. Though Im considering connecting his friend death if either the King of Spiders or the Emperor of Old Kovosa
In the end of part 1, they found Lamm's journals and books, which will give them hints to their expanded plots. Ill also use Zellara's illusions to hint when necessary
Its an excellent exercise for me. I just didnt expect to have so much work, since I decided to run this AP because I have no time to create something of my own (considering I already do a lot of that at work :D)