As a thought exercise, I propose that posters on the fourth edition threads drop in here and make a top ten List like so:
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
Then go to the sister thread:
The Dao of edition change: YIN. Write ten things you dislike about the new edition here.
Whatever your personal take on the new edition is, I hope to see people coming up with ten counterpoints.
As with any debate, you do not have to strongly believe your items.
This may serve to develop and strengthen empathy for the opinions of others.
If you wish to make companion metathreads, go for it.
Taliesin.
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) 3.5 WotC books are a steal on Ebay
2) I have a complete game
3) The mechanics seem nice and unified
4) The mechanically abusive munchkin in my group has his supply of broken WotC material shut off.
5) I can give all my gaming budget to Paizo
6) They make the MSRP of WotC 3.5 books look like a bargin
7) Do I have to do 10?
8) I think this one is to take up space.
9) This one too.
10) Ohh good, the last one.
Thanks WotC.
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) I love the new mechanics that I have seen, with a few exceptions.
2) The prospect of fresh ideas invigorating everyone.
3) The "Basic" feel, with all the refinements of previous editions.
4) The resting mechanics are solid and will see a lot of adoption in 3rd edition games as a houserule.
5) Monsters being quick and easy to build, because they don't need as much flexibility as PCs anyway. Fourth edition seems to be end-oriented instead of means-oriented.
6) The cover art is not as secretive as the "tome" design of third, plus it is ***Wayne Reynolds***
7) The racial progressions. We don't know much about them yet, but I for one, welcome our new Eladrin overlords.
8) Having a digital playmat that will allow me to play with people I meet here in a whole new way.
9) Nicholas Logue said "Titties"
10) A new pricing model will be hard to adapt to at first, but will fatten WotC so that they can invest millions of sub fees back into the game without relying as heavily on splat books to prop up the franchise. At the moment, Magic the Gathering is the top earner for Hasbro, according to a post that is hidden on this board somewhere and that I am too lazy to look up now.
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1) encounter design - make it easier to GM
2) the new magic system - give the wizard something magical to do every round
3) make PC race matter - a level 15 fighter will be different than a level 15 elf fighter
4) streamlined rules - the removal of odd subsystems
5) HP loss is not always physical - going up in level does not make you physically tougher.
6) de-tangling alignment and the mechanics - I don't need a mechanic to roleplay
7) allowing the best of a pair of stats to derive bonuses - INT or DEX add to AC
8) the move toward cinematic play - If I want simulation gaming I will play RQ2 or 3
9) PCs are combat and non-combat effective - no need to choose interesting OR effective
10) skill simplification - moving skills from specific to general
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) My wife is truly jazzed about 4E and wants to run a 4E game
2) The game MAY be more streamlined
3) All the 3.5 stuff that'll be at Half Price Books
4) The mechanics LOOK interesting
5) I've always wanted a Large-sized bulette as a paladin mount
6) I actually like Tome of Battle, so 4E MIGHT not be that bad
7) I can still use my old dice with the new edition
8) Once it's out, people can stop speculating wildy about it
9) Once it's out, I can get down off this fence I'm on
10) Dragonborn women have b3wbz and scaled b3wbz are h0t!
[I take nothing seriously]
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Not really in a priority order:
1) the refocus of the wizard class with more weight given to specific objects/tools/equipment
2) more variety for the warlock class
3) the integration of racial levels into the character progression
4) easier to run "on-the-fly" monsters
5) the weight given to the weapon-based fighting styles for the fighter class
6) nothing else so far
7) nothing else so far
8) nothing else so far
9) nothing else so far
10) nothing else so far
For Beware of Kobold:
Beware of troll.
Please attempt to use this in the spirit it is meant. This is intended to be the positive plane. Post this on the negative one provided then come back here and be a man. Find something to like and write it down or prove that you are nothing but a nuisance loitering under a bridge.
I personally will not be buying fourth. It is not for me. We play roleplaying games. We are usually adept at imagining things different to ourselves. On this thread, I hope that people will be mature enough to leave their b&+$!&~* at the door and dig up at least one nice thing to say.A gauntlet has been thrown down. Write ten things you like about it. BECAUSE you hate it.
Please note that this post is entirely for Beware of Kobold.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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ok, I know it violated the spirit of the thread, but BoK made me laugh.
I was thinking about this, let me try to get to ten.
1) The damage Threshold: I think I'm going to house rule 0-(Con mod, if positive) staqgered, con = dead. (and you still lose 1 point a round, unless you stablize, to allow the dying character last stand/Boromir rule)
2) Monster design: While RPG superstar proved (to my satisfaction) that you can create Monsters, the 'streamlined' guidelines may be popular for newer players.
3) Fey- it looks, hope against hope, that the Fey will be more than vaugely defined spirits
4) Greyhawk. While I will miss Paizohawk, it's good, in a way, to see Greyhawk finally dead rather than the 'trickling out in occasional players stuff, with all the flavour ripped and torn asunder' we got in 3.X. Maybe now that it's as dead a Dragonlance the same thing will happen, it will be outsoruced to someone who cares.
5) Dedication to Gary Gygax. Like 4e or not, that was classy.
6) Tools. While they'll be seen in my 3.x game as a feat option, I do like the idea of needing the impliments.
Ok, that's 6 out of 10, with no snark.
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) 3.5 WotC books are a steal on Ebay
See, this is funny because he found a thread that asked people what they liked about 4e, and instead spent it talking about how much he hates 4e. Genius!
I reread this now and see the humour in his post. I have been soaking in some bitter juices about the boards and the negativity that I and others flung about. This is my "Enough" thread, and I got protective.
That said, I am curious what will happen if people play this little thread game of Yin and Yang in the spirit I intended. I am looking for a little catharsis and bridge building. Please play with me with respect and try to see from the other camp for a bit.
1 I can get my 3e books dirt cheap now
2 Action points are a nice thing to include
3 not sure what to put here
4 I like that there trying to make DMing easier for new guys
5 sorry that really is as far as i can get
6 I really did try
7 Oh and the magic Christmas tree thing i think there trying that anyhow
8 thats really it
9 this took me like 10 minutes
10 im just writing this to have ten
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1. The kept (and expanded on) Warlocks.
2. The Feywild and an increase in the use of Fey.
3. Racial levels seem interesting.
4. Some of the new art is really nice.
5. The return of the Cyclops and Quickling.
6. I'll be spending less money.
Sorry, that's all I can think of for now, based on the stuff I read and what I remember.
if you think that's funny you should read my post! I completely flouted all of the original posters intentions and regulations in order to create a masterpiece of pure comedy gold!!!
I know! And then seekerofshadowlight did too! I thought it was bold and original the first time I saw it, but it just keeps getting better and better with every post!
1. New magic system is way better
2. Fighters have "combat spells"
3. Artwork is pretty cool, except for the halflings
4. Lands of faery and lands of shadow are a nice addition
5. Combat somewhat simplified
6. New races are ph4t
7. Power sources are a good idea
8. Staffs/wands/rods are important paraphenalia for wizards once more
9. Magic items are getting pruned & rebooted. Boy, was I tired of D&D cookie-cutter magic items.
10. Skills getting a much-needed overhaul
Still not sure if it's really D&D though, much as I like the changes.
Sigh. once again, this is directed at Beware of Kobold.
See, this is funny because he found a thread that asked people what they liked about 4e, and instead spent it talking about how much he hates 4e. Genius!Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) 3.5 WotC books are a steal on Ebay
That is not true. I have stated why I will not convert to 4E in other threads so I didn't feel the need to repeat myself in Dao threads. But in all honesty, I am very glad that 4E is making my 3.5 additiction cheaper and everything else I said. I'm seeing a silver lining to the dark cloud that I characterize 4E as. Just because you don't like that silver lining does not mean it is not one.
And I also said that 4E appears to have a unified mechanic that I like.
That is not true.
Someone creates a thread specifically to talk about what people like about 4e. They even create a companion thread to talk about what people dislike. The first person comes on the thread and doesn't think fair enough and posts what they like. They don't think I hate 4e and look for the other thread. Instead they go out of their way to loudly draw attention to the fact that they don't like 4e.
That's childish and insulting.
Taliesin Hoyle, I think you'll need to implement a little Dao and accept that people are going to misconstrue the intent of the thread and do what Beware of Kobold's do. I kind of predicted such would happen even before I opened this thread to read what was inside. Whimsy Chris say, "Be like water and flow with the bending river."
However, in the spirit of the thread, I like 4e for the following reasons:
1. Less time to crunch numbers and other boring aspects of 3e and actually spend time on the creative aspects, such as the monster's powers.
2. The Points of Light idea actually seems closer to the intent of Gygax original game.
3. Races have the ability to gain power past first level.
4. Most penalties are taken out, which players often ignore anyway
5. One doesn't have to have 50 magic items to be powerful at high levels.
6. The art is cool.
7. Combat seems more involved than the, "I swing, you swing" pattern which many combats seem to devolve into.
8. A Wizard can be effective all day long.
9. If all goes well, an epic level adventure won't be leaps more complicated than a low-level adventure.
10. Magic items are in the PHB, where they've always belonged.
That's childish and insulting.
It is unfortunate that you can only see your side of the coin on this matter. I stand by my silver lining.
I will admit that the last few I was a smart a$$, but others stopped short of 10. I also ran out of things to say. Instead of stopping, I was a smart a$$. But the ones before them are serious.
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1) Creature stats seem more concise.
2) Related to no. 1: it looks like you'll have more flavours for each creature, which will probably make throwing together random encounters with disparate elements much easier.
3) 6 months of free Dragon and Dungeon downloads. Some of it is pretty sweet. (Thanks, Steve Greer and whoever wrote about the formorians!)
4) More new WAR art!
5) Chokers are facewreckers now. Srsly.
well I put 3 thinks i could think of in my list I really did try but 3 was really pushing it but i did find 3 nice things to say
I never thought I'd say this but I'm with crosswiredmind here .Hurray, I'm bringing unity to the boards! :)
lol so it seems . and trust me I never thought i would write that lol
Not angry at ya man just letting ya know i found your post amusing more then offensive .I would ask ya to cut back on the insults though
Man how many of us on here have such issues thats a thread to itself. didn't know that cwm or TH . i have ADHD and 2 types of dyslexia myself so i know where your coming from my spelling is bad i know the words just cant put em in order it seems spell check is my friend .
ok fine, in an effort to be less offensive, what if I change it to say:
3. its nice of WotC to create a game tailored specifically for Canadians.
This way no one could possibly be offended.
** spoiler omitted **
*folds arms and gives BoK the evil eye*
This is not safe for work.
This is not safe for work.
No, not safe for work at all. But it is funny and illustrates a point. As a brother point, I suggest reading this. Trust me, good stuff.
This is not safe for work.
But totally relivant. Nice.
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2. The Points of Light idea actually seems closer to the intent of Gygax original game.
3. Races have the ability to gain power past first level.
4. Most penalties are taken out, which players often ignore anyway
8. A Wizard can be effective all day long.
These from Whimsy Chris can be my first 4;
5. Less reliance on stat-adjusting items. When a starting Wizard using point-buy will *never* be able to use his highest level class abilities without a Headband of Intellect, that's not right.
6. Yes, some upthread think it's an insult or something, but I do count cheaper access to the few 3.5 books I don't yet have as a plus in the 4E column. Same deal with 3rd party books, and there's a *lot* of them I'd like to check out when the fire sales start up.
When 3E came out I snapped up all the FR setting books I didn't have yet from 2nd Edition, because the setting stuff would be useful and quite often a fun read in any event. That wasn't a slam at 3rd edition (which I was whole hog excited for), just practicality on my part. Elves of Evermeet and Al-Qadim stuff *still* have useful stuff, even on the dawn of 4th edition, and I sometimes stare longingly at all of the Spelljammer stuff I got for cheap, with the little cardboard snap-together ships, although that might be a pre-existing medical condition brought about by my childhood Lego obsession.
Those who wish to take offense at this, are, as always, free to do so, and probably already have. Sorry for the blood-pressure spike.
7. Death to Vancian spellcasting. I'd prefer if the mechanic remained available, for those who *do* like it (unlike me, I've hated it for decades), as an option or a specific class, but I don't think that's a priority for WotC as the former-wargamers, with their love of strategic and tactical thinking, all chess-move-plotting, who built the game are dying off anyway.
8. I haven't really seen what 'Paths' are about yet, so this is a conditional. I'd *love* to see modular classes with significant choices of progression, much like Monte's Arcana Unearthed classes, where you could have a party of four Witches or three Totem-Warriors, and they'd all be *significantly* distinct. The 3.5 upgrade to the Monk and Ranger, and then the later addition of Alternate Class Features, really excited me, and I'll be tickled pink if they've expanded on that concept with this 'Paths' or 'Trees' or whatever it was.
9. Elves / Eladrins. Elves have always been schizo. A militant holier-than-though crystal-city living, mithral armor-forging race of chaotic anarchic hippy tree-hugging vegans that live off the land. Uh, right. And I'm a half-Pixie / half-Storm Giant, 'cause that makes at least as much sense! I never cared for half-elves, and always felt that Elves were weaksauce, being a child who grew up on Tolkein, so having the 'Elves' be the half-breeds and an even Elfier kind of Elf that was even more Fey and mystical and whatnot, that works for me.
10. Some of the flavor related to the Feywild and the Shadow plane sound awesome. Fey stuff has always been glossed over at best (and when presented, was proud nail crap with 3 HD critters that had 7th level spellcasting ability, or some 8th level spell at will, or something *CRAZY* unbalanced like that). Shadow stuff has gotten a more even presentation, but has still gotten shafted compared to Abyss, Hells, etc. presentations.
[Edit: I thought of more, I think I can get this to 10!]
My name is Taliesin Hoyle. The only time I use an alias is when I am playing one of the games I like to play. I am 36 next week. I teach highschool. I am quite inured to most petty mischief. Here we have someone using a mask, deliberately tring to upset other people to get attention. I started a thread in a spirit of conciliation, for people to state both sides of the issue that is polarising and dividing part of a community that is very precious to me. I post under my real name because I do not like anonymity. I strongly encourage those who read this thread and contribute to it to ignore the troll and just post normally. I would like to see the people who post on this thread post on the sister thread as well. I intend to create a cousin thread if you will. I would love for a moderator to move the troll related threads to the cousin thread so that this thread may become uncluttered and useful again. Thank you all for your patience.
I hereby dub the cousin thread "Kobold with troll template"
I know that Gary Teter and others are not on permanent call to solve quarrels and issues on the boards. Their time is very precious and I do not expect it to be spent moving things around to make me happy.
One can wish though.
I have yet to see anything form 4E that I have found to be redeaming, improved, or in any way better about 4E. (I've read both of the early release preview books, and everything posted on D&D's web page.) I will not be wasting my money on this new system.
Surely you could try.
Surely you could try.
You seem to have this all wrong. I don't "Have to try" to like 4E. I'm the consumer. WotC sould be 'Trying' to make me like their product. They should be dazling me with briliant marketing, exciting things that would fit nicely into my gameworld. I have nothing to prove to WotC, but WotC has everything to prove to me if it wants my money. So far they haven't shown me anything i find 'good' about this new game that they're calling D&D.
I refer you to the original post. I meant try to use this thread within the parameters provided.
I refer you to the original post. I meant try to use this thread within the parameters provided.
Good luck with that plan.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Talsien, I understand how you feel. I tried to list the things I find positive, and I'm not one who will be playing 4e anytime soon (just picked up City State and Wildlands boxed set at .5 priced).
That said, I appriciate your effort.
Crosswired, Several Christian Hells have frozen over, for we are in complete agreement on the irritating posters.
Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) the intent of simplifying combat. Not sure if it'll work out that way.
2) they get a star for trying to make Wizards more effective at lower levels (rather than being one-shot types). Unfortunately, I'm not fond of the changes they've chosen to implement, though.
3) a few of the online tools show promise, like the character generator which also shows a modifiable character picture.
4) the idea behind "points of light" might be good, hard to tell early on if it'll work as intended.
5) turning monsters back into monsters - adding levels, PC feats, and all that never really turned me on, seemed too complex.
6) not much else yet.
7) not much else yet.
8) not much else yet.
9) not much else yet.
10) not much else yet.
Sorry, for me it just seems like there's a lot more "yin" than "yang".
Talsien, I understand how you feel. I tried to list the things I find positive, and I'm not one who will be playing 4e anytime soon (just picked up City State and Wildlands boxed set at .5 priced).
That said, I appriciate your effort.
Seconded.
Crosswired, Several Christian Hells have frozen over, for we are in complete agreement on the irritating posters.
Seconded also.
1) More options for PCs to assist each other in combat--aid another never worked well for us
2) Fewer, more useful skills
3) Potentially elegant handling of unusual attacks
4) De-emphasis of "You can't hurt this monster at all" situations
5) Avoidance (as far as I've seen) of "This character is weak at level X but strong at level Y" tradeoffs
6) Epic mechanics integrated into the regular mechanics
7) (if it's true) Reliable challenge-rating information for monsters
8) Casters have something to do every round, discouraging the "wand platform" paradigm
9) Briefly, no splatbooks and therefore no need to vet all those broken splatbook rules. (I expect this advantage to be short-lived.)
10) Need for fewer magic items.
Mary
1) More options for PCs to assist each other in combat--aid another never worked well for us
2) Fewer, more useful skills
3) Potentially elegant handling of unusual attacks
4) De-emphasis of "You can't hurt this monster at all" situations
5) Avoidance (as far as I've seen) of "This character is weak at level X but strong at level Y" tradeoffs
6) Epic mechanics integrated into the regular mechanics
7) (if it's true) Reliable challenge-rating information for monsters
8) Casters have something to do every round, discouraging the "wand platform" paradigm
9) Briefly, no splatbooks and therefore no need to vet all those broken splatbook rules. (I expect this advantage to be short-lived.)
10) Need for fewer magic items.Mary
I am going to copy off of Mary's paper. I'm a cheater.