The Dao of edition change: YANG. Write ten things you like about the new edition here.

4th Edition

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Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

OK, I missed the "learning disabilities" thing when it was first posted. That's a good example of what's over the line, so several posts in this thread are getting suppressed.

Back to "10 things"

1. Monsters only have to function to fill the role you want them to- slightly simple, but if they're only going to last three rounds anyway, that's OK.
2. The 'powers' thing. I'm not entirely sold on it, but the idea of having something fun to do each round is welcome, instead of turning to my crossbow or "OK, I do nothing and wait for the fighter with the cold iron sword to be useful".
3. Wayne Reynolds art, what's not to love?
4. Eladrin as a core race. I have yet to see if they're quite the same as 3e Eladrin, but I've liked them since Savage Tide.
5. Having more hit points at 1st level (and thus being less fragile) but gaining less hit points as you level up. You can't suddenly take twice as many hits from a greataxe because you beat up thirteen kobolds.
6. Astral Diamonds. While the name and concept is a little lame to me, it does solve the "what do high-level characters spend their money in" question. I probably won't use them but they could be useful for people who do play epically.
7. Epic play being part of the progression, instead of a tacked-on afterthought (if CR 26 is in the MM, why isn't it catered for?) :)
8. A new edition. I kicked and screamed through the 2e-3e changeover and then found out a year after 3e that I actually liked it. A new edition brings change, sweeps away many of the cobwebs (some still popular, some not so much).
9. Treasure. As much as I hate the concept of 'leveled treasure', you can much more easily say 'two level 20s, 1 level 24, 3d6 level 15s' for a dragon's hoard than you can 'treasure type Hx6' or 'approximately 2.4 million gp worth, half in gems and coin, half in major/medium/minor magic items'
10. Wizards taking a power cut. I've always felt fighters suffered a little at the poor end of the power curve, and I'm hoping they will retake some of their former glory.

Lone Shark Games


I glanced in on the yin side of things and saw things seemed to be going okay, looked at this and was amazed at the number of posts... and, yeah. At least it's good that people are intent on proving why Paizo started to moderate.


I'll post my ten of each once I have ten. For each.

Gary Teter wrote:
OK, I missed the "learning disabilities" thing when it was first posted. That's a good example of what's over the line, so several posts in this thread are getting suppressed.

Thank you very much. I can rest now.

Sovereign Court

1. There's
2. nothing
3. to like
4. because
5. the
6. new
7. edition
8. isn't
9. out
10. yet.

I have avoided posting in the 4e forums precisely because of this. It's hard to understand why everybody is so worked up when the game hasn't even been released. And crappy phone camera pictures of single pages of rulebooks out of context do not constitute a rules release IMO.

So I'll wait to see what I like when the rules are actually released and I can see ALL of them.

(Taliesin, I hope you don't think this is going against the spirit of your thread, but this seems like the best opportunity I've had to actually post my feelings about the new edition. But if you do, let me know and I'll delete it.)

No need. This thread does not belong to me. It belongs to everyone who obeys the basic rules of posting.

Given some of the "fine" examples of our little community here above, I thought that I would avoid just lurking and actually respond to the OP's intent of the thread.

Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) The concept that encounter design might go faster.
2) Sweet, sweet spot.
3) The anticipation before you open a new present (don't be socks, don't be socks).
4) I am reluctantly intrigued by the new planes.
5) Trying something new with the skill system.
6) Hmm ten is a lot when I'm still not sure of the details.
7) Hoping that some group members who have gotten "too busy" will find time to play to see what 4th is all about
8) Making me think about the Blue Book again
9) Racial powers.
10) Faster play.

Taliesin, I'll try to get to the companion thread later tonight. Kudos on trying to engage people in a coomunity exercise. I hope the community respects your intent.

Sovereign Court

How about more than 10? Some of these are a bit tongue in cheek but are true at heart.

I'll put some on the other post as well.

1) Simplified Skill System with less “throwaway” skills.
2) Something to add to your character at each level besides hit points.
3) Lower levels beefed up, higher levels leveled off, bigger sweet spot.
4) Very nice art so far.
5) "Alignment" finally punted for something more useful.
6) Touch AC turned into Reflex AC so I don't have to do math in my head every freakin time. I’ve got other stuff to do while I DM.
7) Reflex/Will/Fortitude use the same mechanic as AC, easier for new players to grok quickly. Also, again, I’ve got other stuff to do while I DM.
8) Fey are *dangerous* again.
9) Points of Light. Things were feeling too medieval.
10) Halflings that aren’t the size of 3 year olds.
11) Race matters beyond 1st level. I can’t wait to see what sort of racial goodies a 20th level dwarf has.
12) Wizards have a Staff. And it Matters, it’s not just another throwaway magic item.
13) With simplified mechanics I can do more then 2-3 battles a night and have more time for role-playing.
14) XP calculation that doesn’t require a slide rule.
15) XP for social encounters that have real, defined goals.
16) Cool new books to buy and support my local FLGS.
17) -10 hp was always arbitrary and it's good to see it fixed in the core rules rather then having to be a house rule all the time.
18) Monsters are simplified with cool, specific powers, not character feats glommed onto them.
19) Demons and Devils are cleaned up with clear roles.
20) Tactics are explained within the game and by monster roles - good for new DM's.

I know there's more, that's just off the top of my head.

This seems like it should certainly be easier ...

1) Everyone is useful all the time. This big ass category includes lessening of monsters that fully negate class X (Rogue player: "Undead? I'll go make a sandwhich, call me when we're done or if I have to save") as well as removal of vancian casting.

2) Integration of ToB styles for martial types.

3) Decoupling of Cleric (and other Leader types) from SOLEY healing. Standing behind the Fighter and casting heal every round wasn't terrible, but kinda dull.

4) 1st level characters aren't made of tissue. While funny, it just isn't that heroic to be eaten by a big rat.

5) Math. The math works (hopefully!)

6) Monster design. Shroomy had a very valuable insight into why I like the new monster design ... you design a monster based on what it can do, not on an arbitary definition of what a monster like it can do. ie, If I want a fey brute (to steal Shrooms example) I can make one, whereas in 3E I can make a fey ... but a fey's stats are going to be hard to make a brute.

7) Ending the 15 minute day. This comes, again, from removing vancian casting, but also making healing a bit more prevalent. I want my heroes to dive into the dungeon and push pretty far, not fight the guards then run off to heal.

8) The skill system shouldn't leave anyone out. This means I can use more skill challenges as a DM without having to worry about either totally borking nearly all of the party or totally boring the one guy with the skills when he rolls 20 more than needed.

9) Multiple monster combat the norm. I LOVE monster party vs player party style combats. The more of these the better!

10) New fluff! At first I was sad to see so much fluff changed/discarded. But you know, I can always play a game of 4E in that old assumed universe if I wanted to. So now I'm excited to see what the new fluff consists of. Scary/spooky fey sounds pretty cool!

Whew, not the easiest. But still easier.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1) Trap System: While I'll miss Pit Traps and all, I do like the idea of encounter traps.
2) Monsters are easy to make. So, that helps.
3) The new currency system seems to be a proper step in a direction I like.
4) Eladrin's seem neat.
5) The Rules Compendium for 3.5 was amazing. Appreciate that a lot. And yes, that is a bonus about 4e, because without 4e I wouldn't have it.
6) An interesting role playing/xp rewarding/skill system now exists.
7) Pathfinder and Golarian exist because 4.0 came out, right, so that's good.
8) Paizo gets WAY more of my money because of the above.
9) The fey courts are gone (changed), thank goodness. I never liked them.
10) I really would like the new Dracolich epic miniature. That counts, right?

EDIT: I've now read the rest of the list, and will now edit my own list above in order to make it less.... derogatory. While I will leave the original ill fated point (in the spoiler area), I'll replace them with more thought.


3) You can now keep a cow around as a mount and as a form of denomination.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Modera wrote:
7) Pathfinder and Golarian exist because 4.0 came out, right, so that's good.

That is another good point. Really, if WotC renewed the licence, would they exist? Would Paizo have come out with Pathfinder products?

1. The powers option concept.

2. simpler to run monsters.

3. Fresh new "fluff" ideas.

4. The gods are vulnerable to epic level characters.

5. Feywild

6. Shadowfell.

7.Darker, meaner, grimmer faeries.

8. Wizards still have there spellbooks.

9. My wizard can always do something magical, even at low level play.

10. No xp cost for creating magic items.

Thank you everyone for posting here. Please go to the companion thread and write the counterpoints. See the original post.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

1. Point buy as default. No more rolls that make or break your character concept

2. Daily / At Will / Encounter based powers. Maybe not very "realistic", but a good way to limit the "6 minutes syndrome"

3. Trimming the some fat from the magic item slots. Hopefully it'll be done well, rather than just mushing more options into less slots

4. Lowered resting periods, removal of annoying "spell preparation times"

5. More epic feel, characters have more in common with literary characters

6. Shorter stat blocks

Liberty's Edge

Taliesin Hoyle wrote:

Sigh. once again, this is directed at Beware of Kobold.

** spoiler omitted **

Agreed. I rarely make these comments, but to any and all to whom it applies: this thread has a specific purpose.

There is another sister-thread with a purpose which may more suit you.

If your only goal is to mock and belittle, to be hostile and snide---then make a ridiculous thread just for that childish purpose.

Please leave the juvenilia in the fourth grade where it belongs.

1) Racial levels (if it exists since we do not know anything yet)

2) Clerics that do not always heal (i seldom played clerics for this reason only)

3) Wizards that have something to do every round (i love wizards)

4) Fighter powers with respect to weapons chosen

5) Excitement because of change

6) Excitement because my players are also excited

7) New Races (I hated the half-orc)

8) The limited resting period

9) The fact that all classes have healing (i never understood why u should have a cleric in your party in order to survive)

10) Faith that the new edition will be better (like 3ed was better than 2ed)

I could certainly post more...

Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:

1) I can finish my D&D collection

2) I have the opportunity to actually read and maybe play everything I bought from D&D

3) I became a Grognard :-) before I knew what it meant

4) The cards of the rpg-market will be mixed again

5) It showed me how many players in the world really care bout their system

6) 100 to 150 Euro a month more at free disposal

7) no more "complete ..." "Monster Manual XX" "... Handbook #xx" for me

8) dunno

9) dunno

10) It MIGHT be, that 4.0 gets new players to our hobby

1) Increasing the negative HP range before death. It is good for high level play when creatures can put out a high amount of damage.
2) That the Monster Manuals have different advanced versions of monsters. That would sae time when you just want to through something together.
3) Multiple low level monsters still somehow are able to damage higher level characters.
4) The DMG is supposed to have really good advice for DMing.
5) Digital tabletop for those people that want to play cross country
6) The definition of an encounter as “until you can take a 5 min rest”
7) The new astral, feywild and shadow realms sounds like a neat alternative to the standard planes.
8) Tactics seem like they will be easier to determine at a glance
9) New trap system has potential
10) Darker faeries.

I love this! So here's my top ten (FAIR WARNING: I won't read everyone elses responses until after I post mine--so as not to have to worry whether all the good responses are taken or not)

1. Love the huge quantum jump away from Tolkien.

2. Love the Core Setting as new home for all the settingless stuff from other Editions.

3. I really dig the fresh new spin on dwarves, with their friendlier look and mountain valley cities.

4. Love that magic items are scaled by level and can thus be used to make level adjustments to weaker characters (so the whole party doesn't have to be X level or be totally unable to play together)

5. Love that the new classes aren't going to all feed off "spells" but that each one has a distinct abilities list that does what that class should do.

6. Love the freeform dark age feel of the new mapless Core Setting.
7. I absolutely love the new spin on elves, how they've taken a lot of the sting out of them for long time elf haters like myself.

8. I dig the new transitive planes, that gone are the "misty nothing realms" replaces with concrete places that are fun to describe and designed for gaming in.

9. I love the Elemental Vortex and the idea that elementals of numerous kinds can now war with each other in the planes without evaporating or getting doused.

10. I love the new quantum jump in the Forgotten Realms timeline and the huge shakeup in everything 100 years down the line. Makes the Time of Troubles look like the biggest misnomer ever. Heh. Awesome.

Crud. I ran out of numbers. Can you tell I'm a fan? Well off to do my Yin bit.

Okay, this one should be easier. I posted in the negative thread first because I'm one of those people who do try to get the unpleasantness out of the way. I eat my vegetables first. :-P

1) I like the core mechanic (an attack vs. AC/Fort/Ref/Will)

2) I like that first level play starts out feeling like 5th level play and the game tries to maintain the "sweet spot" for a longer time.

3) I like the possibilities that seem to be available in monster design.

4) I like that more of an effort was put into balancing the game as opposed to making things a certain way for tradition's sake.

5) I like that the game is more gamist and less simulationist.

6) I like Healing Surges and think they're a useful tool.

7) I like that the game, by default, now is set up for the PCs to meet multiple opponents.

8) I'm glad an effort was made to streamline things and simplify the DM's job.

9) I like the Abilities we've seen and how they're divided between at-will, encounter, and per day.

10) I like what has been done with Traps.

Sovereign Court

That's going to be difficult in my case.

Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:
1)I will probably spend a lot less on RPGs, and a lot more on indie rock. Though I might try indie RPG systems and spend just as much ...
2)I will spend more on Paizo !
3)the new rules for diplomacy ... maybe.
4)the new rules for traps ... maybe
5)We will move from organised play marathons with little time to run each module to homegames at the rhythm we like
6)I will have time to try Runequest
7)I will have time to try Warhamster (again !)
8)My holidays budget will increase, yay !
9)I might find a girlfriend on my extra time.
10)more people might know about D&D since itis closer to Wow, and the hobby Might be better (!) accepted socially.

I might edit again my thoughts later, this is not necessarily my best shot.

That was painful, but it actually reflects my own thoughts, feel free to disagree.

Liberty's Edge

Ten things that I like about what we have heard in regards to 4th ed.

1, The Shadowfell sounds pretty interesting, here’s hoping that it really is as interesting as I think it will be.

2, I like the more Basic feeling that I’m getting from the game.

3, A character’s Race matters stats wise for longer than character creation.

4, Wizards having small spells that they can cast at any time while they still seem to have access to the larger spells that they only get once a day. This should allow for less book keeping.

5, Fighters matter, as do their weapon choices, for longer in the game. I hope that Paladins get equal treatment and become more of a Noble Knight then they have been recently.

6, Smaller stat blocks for monsters.

7, I really liked the layout of the books that I saw in the photos of the D&D Experience. they were clean and looked like they would be easy to read.

8, Fewer books to keep track of, it looks like, so that could lower the amount of ‘stuff’ a DM needs to carry to a game.

9, The digital tabletop idea is rather cool. I won’t use it myself, but I know people who would and I’m glad that it will be there for them.

10, The art does look pretty neat. I like good art in gaming books. It really helps get the imagination flowing and sets a style and tone for the mind.

These are more or less in order of their importance to me as a DM.

1. Character power is no longer reliant on magic item cost/treasure limits making low magic (some might say realistic) settings easy to run.

2. Skill system has been streamlined so that EVERY character can utilize them effectively.

3. No more throw away classes... (No longer only 5+ player games can have a warlock or monk or bard, etc.)

4. No more bogus multi-classing rules (You can be an effective mage/priest without taking a prestige class that is built for it.)

5. Monster/NPC builds are no longer dependent on the character ruleset.

6. The game stays viable and fun after 12th level.

7. Magic items are no longer constructed and forced to conform to an inaccurate cost vs utility mechanic. (I am hoping this turns out to be true.)

8. Characters no longer have 'useless' levels, oh boy I got more hitpoints at 5th level, "Where's the beef?"

9. More feats, and feats are more intertwined with character power choices.

10. Gnomes are no longer a PC race. (Heh heh)

Liberty's Edge

Admittedly tougher for me ,but here it goes...the 10 things I LIKE about 4e:

1.) The fluff is new and fairly fresh...not always great ,but definitely like the new an option.

2.) The art in the Worlds and Monsters book...awesome!

3.) The basic design philosophy behind the 3 tiers: heroic, paragon, and epic.

4.) Design philosophy behind the longer work days for will/daily/per encounter.

5.) The Dragonborn and Tiefling races....almost every campaign I ever ran someone wanted to play a "dragon-y" pc or a " dark " hero...this plays to what I think more than a few players really want.

6.) Streamlined skills.

7.) Easier prep for the DM.

8.) Monsters can do things that are outside the purview of pcs.

9.) The care and effort clearly placed on the development of 4e by the designers. I really do think they have done what they thinks make a great game!

10.) The inevitable price drop on 3.x gaming material once 4e is launched in June...heck, you can get great deals now from what I hear on EBAY and such! Hooray for 4e!

Liberty's Edge

Ok this is hard to do, but I will try:

1. Possibility of seeing D&D being played by a new generation.
2. Dungeon and Dragon Magazines being brought back in for the digital initiative, so that Golarian and Pathfinder could be produced.
3. 3.5 being complete with no further official additions.
4. The new art for the books.
5. Ranger and Half-elf seem to have made it to the player's handbook. I have played Half-elf Rangers since I started playing D&D.
6. This is hard, oh DMG being Titties.
7. Possibility of getting people to try pen and paper games that normally wouldn't have.
8. Attempt by Wizards to bring the game into the digital age while remaining a pen and paper game.
9. Attempt at making the Dungeon Masters duties easier.
10. The love of gaming that the designers are showing that they have.

Well I made it to ten.

Liberty's Edge

1. Wizards are useful at all levels, all of the time.
2. Combat is streamlined into three Powers.
3. With Second Wind, and Healing Surges, combined with the new Rest rules, weak Clerics and young Wizards are no longer the stress-point in the party.
4. Actions and Movement couldn't be any easier--and simplified rules for Triggered Actions are one of the key revisions I've been waiting for.
5. Melee, Ranged, and Close Attack rules--finally, easy to remember without referencing the book. Not to mention, what I've seen so far makes sense.
6. Action Points and Milestones: this idea rocks!
7. Duration of Effects--I sincerely can't see a way this could be easier to manage than WotC's new rules. I love this one.
8. Points of Light--finally, the Known World is not so well-known. Very Gygaxian.
9. The New Toril--I love the Realms, but how many times can the Heores save Faerun? I'm anxious to see the Shake-Up.
10. Elves and the Fey--they're just way more cool this time around...

Thanks to everybody for their posts here. It is great to see the people who are not fond of the new edition post here. Some were a bit hard pressed to find ten items, but it says a lot about their character that they put something here. The same goes for all the fans of the fourth edition that still found valid (and sometimes harsh) criticisms to put up on th Yin thread.

**Obligatory reminder to post on the companion thread.**

Hmm, got some error when I tried to post the first time. I'll try again, hopefully not producing a double post...

1) D&D is finally trying to use the Fey in a way that seems Feylike.

2) Wizard implements seem like cool flavor.

3) Combats seem likely to last longer in game time.

4) Gawdawful ripoff regions like Maztica, Mulhorand, etc got ripped out of the FR, hopefully indicating they will be trying for more 'inspired by' locations and less 'pastiche/clone job' places.

5) No more folks trying to claim all generic material is innate to Greyhawk just because Greyhawk is the 'core' world.

6) No more PrCs. Yay!

7) Magic items /seem/ more flavor oriented than stats oriented.

8) Character portrait creator thingie on the DDI will be sweet, if its any good.

9) Warlocks look actually playable and fun.

10) No more, but one better than I came up with in the first try.

What the? My post disappeared...what gives? I was giving my list (could only find 4 things, but was planning to eventually finish it).

Did it get deleted cause my 10 things were incomplete?

It's a plot, man. I think I just heard jackboots. RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

I'll give this a go.

1. The Elemental Chaos. A place of raw, chaotic, primordial energy, truer to the word "elemental" than any current one-trick-pony planes.

2. The new cosmology in general. I like the idea of potentially infinite dominions within the astral sea. The Feywild also seems very interesting and potentially dangerous.

2. A bigger role for the Shadar-kai. Their concept art in Worlds and Monsters rocks.

3. Tons of new art, and a welcome return to landscapes, from a very object centric direction under 3.5. I like pictures of armours and weapons, but a large vista with all sorts of details speaks volumes to my imagination.

4. More focus on race, with the ability to develop over the course of one's adventuring life.

5. A core set of truths in the main books, which will mostly hold true across campaign settings. A problem I had with the current Manual of the Planes, for example, was that it only held true for the core setting, while your campaign setting mostly overrode it. (Sure you can grab bits here and there, but it still wasn't worth the whole book.) With 4th edition, ostensibly, we'll get a set of core assumptions in the main books, that settings can expand upon, rather than replace.

6. Tieflings and Dragonborn as core races. Their backstories in Races and Classes sounded really interesting, and made me want to roll up one of each immediately.

I've been talking about flavour so far, so here are a few mechanical ones too.

7. Diversify rather than increase power. Situations should allow for a greater variety of solutions, rather than a given one that is statistically the best.

8. Cinematic traps. The running boulder trap example that was posted looked interesting because it could involve every character for a number of rounds. Example: The rogue is frantically trying to unlock the manacles on the victim trapped in the boulder's path. The ranger leaps over the boulder, while the fighter runs up to it and tries to slow it down, etc.

9. Less book-keeping for the DM. Running an encounter with multiple high-level monsters is currently an annoying exercise in continually flipping between pages and pages of stats. Although it has to be said that Paizo's "before combat" and "during combat" paragraphs really help already.

10. A clean slate of mechanics and resource books means a tabula rasa for the cheesy min-maxers out there. Roleplaying will move away from "how can I do this within this ruleset" to "I'll do this", at least for a while.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Razz wrote:

What the? My post disappeared...what gives? I was giving my list (could only find 4 things, but was planning to eventually finish it).

Did it get deleted cause my 10 things were incomplete?

Naw. That's a long-standing messageboard bug that I'm doing my best to track down.

1. The elimination of Vancian magic. I don't particularly like what they've replaced it with, but at least it's gone.

2. Getting rid of alignment as an actual force in the game.

3. While I'm not fond of what they've done with demons and devils, the rest of the planar changes are kind of interesting. They Feywild, in particular, sounds like a good addition.

4. Traps as encounters.

5. Higher level racial abilities.

6. Faster gameplay. (I don't actually believe this will be the case, but if it's true, it's a good thing.)

7. ...have to think about this a bit more...

8. ...have to think about this a bit more...

9. ...have to think about this a bit more...

10. The fact that, since I'm not switching, 4E will save me lots of money. :)

Just bumping this back into the eyes.

Looking forward to reading this thread and the other one after writing this.

Ten things I like about the new edition:
1. The monsters. I love the monster roles and the synergies I've seen in the Monsters and More pdf. Running groups of monsters should be more fun than ever.
2. The classes. I'm really glad that each class's combat abilities will be balanced independent of their non-combat contributions.
3. The powers. Having played both a warblade and a warlock recently, I'm glad that everyone will have at-will and per-encounter abilities. I'm also excited that durations will be easier to manage.
4. The teamwork. Just looking at the six pregenerated first level characters reveals lots of opportunities to set up your fellow party members for cool combos.
5. The math. We haven't seen all of it, but it's good to know that their are standard progressions for hp, defenses, skills, BAB, and the like.
6. The new cosmology. I imagine I'll still run games in Golarion or Eberron, but I'm tempted to start creating my own material again. The new cosmology is very accessible.
7. The levels. Something new at every level. What a concept! The best core classes and prestige classes in 3.5 do this already. I hated a recent level gain where all I got were hp and skill points.
8. DM prep. Encounter design and customizing monsters sounds a lot less time consuming. This is another reason I might rely less on published adventures in the future.
9. Searchable rules database. Full access to all rules and crunch for $10 a month? I want to see it first, but I expect I'll be getting the one-year subscription.
10. Tactics. This ties in with number 1 and 4, but as a DM and player I'm about equally split between a storyteller and a tactician. The second one is getting a huge boost from 4e. The effect on the first remains to be seen.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

1. LOVE the new/updated fluff.
2. Tieflings and dragonborn as core races.
3. Warlock and Warlord as core classes.
4. As a DM I will spend less time building encounters/stats and have more time to add roleplaying/flavor options to my game.
5. Simplified XP awards structure.
6. Monster stats that can fit on a 3x5 card.
7. The annihilation of the Great Wheel. Yay!
8. I like the AC, Reflex, Fort, Willpower defense rules.
9. Player characters will have more options available to them during each round of combat.
10. The release of 4E means the D&D hobby will continue to thrive. Let's face it, D&D is not chess. Unless you continue to update and improve the game (which, IMHO, 4E does) and attract newer/younger players, our beloved hobby will vanish from the face of the earth.
11. Overhaul of some ridiculous 3.whatever rules, like Grappling.

Bump, because I am curious if people have anything to add now that Pathfinder has taken the edge off the debate.


Postives of 4th edition

1. New New New
2. Taking skills and combining them into one
3. after draining all special powers, players still retain 80% of their powers. Makes for a longer day rather than 1-2 encounters need to camp again
4. Paragon paths and epic levels without having to buy more books.
5. Bye Bye Gnome
6. Hello breasted dragons...?...lizards have breasts?! (may be the minority here...dwarf gets it on with Worf's wife)
7. Simple, simple, simple. ST+ static= Great! (to think into the debate I have seen on this take a 1st level character with a +2 to Fort save against a 2nd level spell DC of 14=12 or higher. Take an 11th level Fort save of +12 total against a 12th level spell DC of 21=9 or higher. So making it uniform simplifies it and does not take much away other than a 2nd level spell casted on a 12th level character is not worth the time, so I am curious if this is dealt with)
8. ST AC's and differnet powers roll different things....
9. Love the epic the monster to up the difficulty thing. Take a band of 5th level characters, wip out a 1st level module and elite the monsters to make it least it is a good theroy...we wont know until release.
10. The bloodied adjective. We use it now in 3.5 by telling my players to tell me when they are bloodied. Creates visuals! Good stuff

Scarab Sages

I like these ten things about 4e:

1. It gives us all a chance to remember that what matters about the game is the role-playing. By chucking out years of mechanics, WOTC is offering us the opportunity to return to the idea of role-playing, where the rules are a backdrop and not the focus. As a transition exercise, try a role-playing session without dice, where everything happens according to dramatic flow and the DMs rulings are done only to move events along. Then, in the next session, use 4e rules and watch how much better your players role-play rather than munchkin the game.
2. Personified demons and devils complete their march back into the core game. The greatest sin of 2e was purged at the end of the 3.5 era and now we have a universe pulsing with personifications of evil.
3. Integrated CCG, MMORPG, and minis gameplay into the core RPG. Perhaps enough so to stave off the slow death caused by aging grognards declining to delve into the deep below. I began playing in middle school and believe that to keep that funnel open the game needs to get to that middle school playing vibe, wherever it is mechnically.
4. A great opportunity to perfect 3.5 house rules without worry that WOTC will back-fill your fixes with something else.
5. A core setting that is so blenderized that every DM will be building home-brew worlds that are setting-specific; the dawning of an age of 'Viking only' 'Underwater' and 'Chinese only' worlds as it was in mid-to-late 1st ed AD&D.
6. Rules that emphasize party-building rather than character-building will surely help DMs lead players to balanced groups making encounter planning easier.
7. New monster tropes to explore, personify, and argue over pronunciation. After all, the drow/cow/grow debate helped keep that silly race in the running until Drizz't was invented.
8. Giant seafaring halflings completing their genocide of dwarf-cousin gem-loving badger raising gnomes and pint-sized kleptomaniac interlopers from Krynn, finishing once and for all the days of hobbits and Kender and Garl Glittergold. And without anyone crying for reparations or a museum!
9. An era where a virtuous knight of justice can descend into corruption and depravity without needing to impose alignment-based mechanical penalties or accomplish extensive conversions. After all, with the Devils back in the game, their work shouldn't be delayed by a need for erasing alignment.
10. WOTC finally answering, loud and clear, the challenge of taking pen-and-paper RPGs into the world of Magic-the Gathering.

Scarab Sages

Every once and a while a discussion thread motivates me to post. This one has done just that. I admittedly excited about 4E so the goal of this thread will be easy for me to meet. I will make the effort though to come up with the Yin.

1. I just read the Angels Excerpt and I have to say that they seem awesome. How do you react to a powerful level cleric who completely breaks with the tenents of their faith and betrays their diety for the sake of personal gain. ANGEL OF VENGEANCE.

2. Iterative attacks. Is it my turn,. . . . yes, finally . . . . what? Oh, you forgot you were hasted and you need to attack some more. Oh, yeah, . . . . ok, I'm going to get some more funyuns.

3.Staff Strike. And every other change that prevents the wizard from being the reason the party has to stop and rest, . . . . again.

4. Paragon Paths. 4Es answer to prestige classes. But you don't necessarily abandon your core class, just become more speciallized.

5. From what I hear, and we will find out more wednesday when the new Multiclass excerpt article comes out, Multiclassing is going to rock. Instead of picking up a whole other class level, you instead trade some of your class abilities for another classe's abilities by use of a feat system. So someone wanting to be a fighter/mage would maybe give up some weapon specialization to develope basic level spellcasting abilities. Like I said, I am still waiting for confirmation on this, but if it is so then I already like it.

6. Pathfinder. Someone who posted earlier may have been right. 4E and WotC's move to pull the Dragon and Dungeon liscense back in house may be the reason paizo took the steps they did and developed their own world and APs. If that is so thank you very much Wizards. I am deffinately looking forward to starting my 4E game with CotCT.

7. Support for the new edition. Whether it is the quantity of online articles or the new online D&D game table, I like it. I am a soldier by professionn and am constantly having games killed by moves and distance.

8. Speed of play. If 4E in any way speeds up combat so that we can get past the numbers game and back to roleplaying that that is awesome.

9. They are going to release all the old campaign settings again. One a year I think. I cannot wait to get my hands on an updated version of Birthright or Greyhawk. Nothing could be cooler. Lets just hope all the books are not cluttered up with the delve format.

10. The Great Wheel is dead, long live 4E. Really. Any step towards simplification that still allows a fun game to happen is a step in the right direction.

There is plenty more where those came from, but you asked for 10, now to go find that Yin thread. I have a feeling that that will be much more difficult.


Ten things that I like about fourth edition D&D:

1) Per-encounter abilities. While I thought about making spells per-encounter a couple of years ago, I decided I'd have to pretty much rewrite and playtest the entire spell list, and that wasn't worth my time. Glad to have someone else do it for me!
2) Healing surges. Mearls' notes for Iron Heroes summed up nicely the need for characters to be able to take more damage per day than they can take in a singe fight. Healing Surges looks like the best implementation of this need I've seen in a hit point based system so far.
3) Minion monsters. One of my favorite elements of Feng Shui, Seventh Sea, and so many others.
4) Solo monsters. In particular, the attempt to address the economy of actions when you have a party of 4-5 PCs fighting a single tough opponent, allowing for the BBEG to wear the party down rather than simply going nova on a single character.
5) The promise of shorter combat rounds. When I was running The Whispering Cairn, combats went so fast! Tomorrow night I expect to run the final arena battle of The Champion's Belt, and I expect it'll only get slower and slower from here.
6) Magic items so far appear to all have an effect beyond a simple plus.
7) Simplified light vs. heavy armor distinction, with a big gap in the AC each provide. It's possible I might see players wear hide armor by choice!
8) Resolving many of my multiclassing woes: First level characters who can already be fighter-wizards. No more single-level dipping. No more character sheets with three base classes and two prestige classes. No more prestige classes, period - this brings me joy.
9) The yearly three-volume campaign setting model. Whether it works out this way or not, it ought to be an opportunity to have settings that deviate from D&D baseline more. I really hope to see Dark Sun 4e, and I hope it's a reboot.
10) Simpler rules with better guidelines for on-the-fly maneuvers and monsters.

We'll see how it all falls out. On paper, though, it continues to look really good.

Scarab Sages

Ten things I like about 4th Edition (based on what I have seen):

1. Dividing cleric abilities into prayers, spells, and rituals.
2. Fighters not as reliant on magic items.
3. Racial feats in core.
4. Tiers in character progression...memories of 2nd Edition kits.
5. More effort in standardizing presentation of material.
6. Wizard implements change effects of spells.
7. Warlocks in core.

Trying so hard, but I only come up with more for the Yin section.

EDIT: More

8. Points of light setting.
9. Fey get a focus as monsters.
10. Dead levels pretty much gone.

1) They included Gnomes as a playable monster instead of just banning them entirely.
2) They decided to allow Ebberon and other game worlds to convert to the new game system.
3) They changed their minds and are going to let some outside writers create material for 4th edition.
4) They are going to include Sigal, without the neutral plane and the weird idea cults.
5) They are going to include 3 gameworld books each, every year. It's progress.
6) They may include gameworld specific material, online.
7) I've heard that all fae can change into human form, so the Duskwood Dryad only looks that way for combat.
8) The new Sahuagan figure looks sparkily.
9) WOTC seems to be responding to large blocks of consumers, such as Ebberon fans.
10) There's always 4.5 for them to repair the many mistakes they made with 4.0.
Don't feel bad, I have Welsh ancestery.
If you can't come up with 10, you are welcome to borrow some of mine.

As for the annoying subplot, is there a function where I can set Kobold to ignore? It's always better to let the public self police because then no one can act like The Man is oppressing them.


You wanna me give it a go ya?

1> A Core Mechanic Where I don't have to make up a number, neither as set out by a list of examples nor by the appropiate to party level. (Linking Interpersonal conflicts to Armour Class is awesome, no longer do i have to make up a number for the thief to steal crap in combat, its just THIEVERY VS REFLEX AC GO!GO!GO!GO!, it worked beautifully, brought tear to eye, really)

2> Two words Quick and Easy (not dumb and dumber) hoenstly if they can make combat, monsters and the world quick and easy I don't see what not to like.

3> Getting Rid of the Great Wheel, the world's most f++%ed up conception of a planar system ever. It irked me , whats the difference between an archon and an angel again, why are the devils and demons fighting again, oh yeah someone thought it would be kewl X years ago and obviously never came back to see how it was working in actuallity, and the gm is too much of a pantywaist to evaluate himself (but its x year old it must be good. its tradition)

4>3 settings books then done, nuff said (oh wait it sounds like all those shitkickers who are all like, "They are just milking the system with a long lines of drivel for the realms or other cs, apparently where just that shitkickers with no particular clue)

5> I'm growing found of the new races, and if nothing else incorporating halfdragons and half fiends from the begining is a wise move. Also elf-eladrin split is okay.

6> Half Elfs that Don't Suck, (and i hope in the MM half orcs that don't suck)

8> Taking the Concept of "Only Options" and no restrictions to the logical maximum (screw that -2 stat bs, which is what the sub races did ANYWAY, Charismatic gold dwarfs for the win ).

9> Cleaning up the skill list, and getting rid of dead end skills and the entirely dead end skills (profession, craft etc )

10> Rituals, no i don't know anything about them yet (ha!) but the fact they are willing to leave the combat spell format for some things makes a lot of sense , and is a big problem i think they were having with the previous things (It makes sense to throw a fireball, but why would i spend a vancian spell slot on forbiddence, unless i already had a day ahead of me that i didn't plan on adventuring (10 mins per level adds up to long time )

~and no i aint doing the yin! down with needless symetry~!1!

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