Hi everyone, my name is Nick...I'm a 4E freelancer/playtester.
"Hi Nick!"
I've been absolutely avoiding saying anything about my freelancery for 4E for a long time now, mostly because I was pretty sure I wasn't allowed to even hint at it. In fact I took this to a crazed level of feigning lack of understanding about the game (hence a lot of my comments you've seen on these boards). Okay, so yeah, it's about time I let people know, since now I know I can let people know after catching up on my emails today.
First off: I got *the* email! It said exactly what Andy Collins said it said (over on Enworld), nothing more. I was just touting Rodney's praises on the "Another Playtester" thread, so while we are on the topic of good people:
Andy Collins is one of the finest human beings I've ever met. He is compassionate, brilliant, generous, wise, and full of love for the game. He is, quite frankly, one of the world's best game designers, and he has a bright and glorious soul that exudes kindness, warmth, and strength of spirit. He is not disingenuous or duplicitous. Nor does he conspire to murder our childhood love of D&D. He is a committed designer working hard to make the game better for as many people as possible.
I am allowed to disclose things about the new edition I like so here it is...Nick's very most favorite thing about 4E:
The DMG This is quite frankly the best book on roleplaying I've read in my entire life. It is titties. It is great. I love it. Not only are non-combat encounters and traps truly interesting now and backed up by awesome mechanics, but the book contains some of the strongest advice I've ever read on how to step behind the screen and rock out a good gaming session.
I hope you all understand that being under an NDA but being allowed to discuss things to a very non-specific extent is a little confusing to ittle ole me, so I don't want to get wrapped up in a maelstrom of 4E discussion.
I have too much work to do to get sucked into this message board. The fact that I need to pump out 5,000 words a day until May in order to meet all my deadlines for Paizo, WotC and Open Design (check out Blood of the Gorgon on Open Design!!!...shameless plug) pretty much ensures that I am no longer a man but rather a typing-monkey (I am a HUMAN BEING, I am NOT an ANIMAL!!!), I just can't be online all the time rapping about stuff. Not to mention I don't really know what I am allowed to rap about and what not.
My advice on 4E can be summed up as this: Remember, it's not finished yet. Give it a chance. Pick it up and read it in the store. You may really enjoy what you see there. It won't be for everyone, but it might be for you. If you want faster game play and lots of new combat options no matter what class you're playing then this game delivers the goods.
Took a big man to come out of the closet like that...
Alright, Nick, you don't have to friggin dip my head into it water torture style. I'll play it, I'll buy it, I'LL LOVE IIIIIIIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...conspire to murder our childhood love of D&D.
Wait, this is a job at WotC?!?! Where do I sign up! <runs off to look at Hasbro's job board>
The DMG ... is titties.
High praise indeed! I mean who doesn't like "titties"?!?
It is also great to hear that there is good advice on running a game in there as well... most hints have been mechanical.
Since most of what we have heard has been about playing the game can you tell us anything else about making/designing adventures for it? Yours would be a great perspective to hear from.
Sean Mahoney
I thought typing monkeys came only in infinite quantities and compose Shakespeare works...
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[Disclaimer, humor!]
I've been absolutely avoiding saying anything about my freelancery
'Freelancery?' Is that anything like freebasing?
In fact I took this to a crazed level of feigning lack of understanding about the game
Oh, ha ha, we knew you were faking that lack of understanding about the game! Reaaaally! (awkward...)
Andy Collins is one of the finest human beings I've ever met. He is compassionate, brilliant, generous, wise, and full of love for the game.
He's got some neat stuff on his website, too. But wow, he sounds like the second coming of Pelor, to hear you tell it!
Is this related to the whole coming out of the closet thing? 'Cause there's nothing wrong with that...
The DMG This is quite frankly the best book on roleplaying I've read in my entire life. It is titties. It is great. I love it. Not only are non-combat encounters and traps truly interesting now and backed up by awesome mechanics,
I feel the need to flog myself for suggesting that anything written by Monte Cook isn't perfect, but the trap pricing guidelines always kinda bugged me. Reading an adventure where the fairly pathetic crossbow trap on the treasure chest was worth three times as much as the contents of the chest itself made me think, 'Dumbest pirate, ever, he really got rooked by that trapmaker...'
but the book contains some of the strongest advice I've ever read on how to step behind the screen and rock out a good gaming session.
Sounds useful to the newer gamers, although even the old salts who haven't been to a lot of cons and seen all sorts of DM styles can often stand to learn some new tricks.
pretty much ensures that I am no longer a man but rather a typing-monkey (I am a HUMAN BEING, I am NOT an ANIMAL!!!)
I'm confident in your ability to be both.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Well, I must say, this is the most hopeful thing I've heard yet. Most of what I've heard has filled me dread. But if Nick "Crown-of-the-Kobold-King" Logue gives it props...well then...I may have to try a bit harder to keep an open mind.
Some of the specifics I've heard still make me wake up in a cold sweat at night...but maybe, just maybe, I can house-rule it into something manageable...
Thanks for giving us hope, Nick.
Andy Collins is one of the finest human beings I've ever met. He is compassionate, brilliant, generous, wise, and full of love for the game.He's got some neat stuff on his website, too. But wow, he sounds like the second coming of Pelor, to hear you tell it!
Is this related to the whole coming out of the closet thing? 'Cause there's nothing wrong with that...
Ha! Andy is a really great guy. I've hung out with him on a few occasions and I assure you, he IS the second coming of Pelor!
And, yeah, I'd go gay for him too, but that's a separate issue. ;-)
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Some of the specifics I've heard still make me wake up in a cold sweat at night...but maybe, just maybe, I can house-rule it into something manageable...
One thing I'm kinda struggling with accepting is that the roles and classes make it pretty clear that this is *not* going to be any sort of D&D I've played before.
I remember when City of Heroes was in the planning stages, I had all these grandiose ideas about characters I wanted to make and after the game came out realized that none of them were possible. Instead I made all different heroes based on their setting and using their rules (and roles), and had a blast anyway.
I think 4E is gonna be the same. All of the characters I've most loved in 2E and 3E are gonna be un-doable, especially from the sounds of the core classes in PHB1 and the concept of 'roles' (none of which cover the kinds of characters I like to play, or the multiple 'roles' my characters tend to take up from time to time, depending on the situation), so I'm going to have to throw them all out and find new things to enjoy in this game.
If I don't think 'D&D' and just think, 'hey, new fantasy game!' it goes down much smoother and I can start looking for cool things in this new game, rather than thinking about all the 3.X stuff it isn't going to be designed to do any longer.
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One thing I'm kinda struggling with accepting is that the roles and classes make it pretty clear that this is *not* going to be any sort of D&D I've played before.
I think this whole role thing was just the designer's way to conceptualize the how different classes are played and how they fit into the whole. I do not think anything really changes from the viewpoint of the player. I think the character classes already fit into the roles they came up with in the first place and they just needed a new way to talk about it and conceptualize it for the sake of their design tasks.
Then of course what happens is we play our characters anyway we want.
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Hi everyone, my name is Nick...I'm a 4E freelancer/playtester.
Hi Nick!
I just wanted to applaud you on coming out and telling everyone this. I think it's really cool that you're throwing this out there, even though you really don't have to.
I'm glad that you have good things to say about 4E. It's nice to see that even if WotC had some difficulty dealing with their fanbase during the edition switch, at least the resulting product may be a worthy investment in the end.
I'll be honest, I don't think I'll be jumping onto 4E right away, but I do look forward to seeing the rules. And if you're going to be writing 4E adventures for WotC (and possibly Paizo, depending on their decision), then that's probably going to be a big factor in getting me to eventually play 4th.
Keep up the awesome work!
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Hey Nick,
I've yet to have the pleasure of running one of your adventures for my group yet, but I'm already counting down the weeks till they mosey their lollygagging asses over to Hook Mountain, and come hell or high water I'll make sure they stumble across Falcon's Hollow in time for the carnival of tears. It'll be a nice experiment on the limits of player sanity, I think.
Anyway, just wanted to say everything of yours I've read I've loved. But more importantly, hearing your support for 4E most certainly helps put this DM's skeptical mind at ease. The decider for me is still likely going to be Paizo's choice on whether or not to make the switch, but your endorsement certainly makes things a noticeably less cringe-worthy process for me.
Now if they can just make the tieflings less silly-looking and angst-filled and the dragonborn completely nonexistent... Ah well, can't have everything, I guess.
Thanks for the great adventures and the thought provoking posts.
Sweet, I look forward to playing your stuff, dude.
I hope this cools down some of our edgy 4E critics.
I can't wait until Paizo is able to make a decision on what to do so that our freelancers can shamelessly shill our new stuff, too.
No need to shill... we will buy it either way!
Sean Mahoney
Don't tell anyone, but I've been doing development work on some of Nick's stuff over the last few weeks. All I can say is he's a man who knows his titties.
That sounds odd.
One thing I'm kinda struggling with accepting is that the roles and classes make it pretty clear that this is *not* going to be any sort of D&D I've played before.
People get really hung up on the roles, it seems. While role does speak to design, it already did in 3rd Edition. When I ran Shackled City, I had a very nonstandard party: gold dragon (monster class), a paladin, a weretiger, and a barbarian. It was a challenge not having a druid or a cleric for healing. This was pre-Spell Compendium, so the paladin was...OK, but not great at protecting his buddies. The gold dragon and the weretiger were just kind of all over the place, but those adventures really revolved around presenting an iconic D&D experience, and I really had to adjust to make it work without dedicated healing and a good, solid meat shield.
When I ran Age of Worms, however, my players did the fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard thing, and it worked out SO much better. You don't need those "Core Four" specifically, but you do need someone who can do what they can do.
So 4E doesn't really change that. Instead, what it does is it says, "What do these roles need to be able to do? OK, let's give them that by default. Now that they have that down, we can let players build all kinds of characters on top of that." For example, the fighter effectively gets his "defenderiness" for free, and then you build whatever kind of fighter you want on top of that. Some of the abilities speak to defenderiness, but, well, not all of them by any stretch.
Out of curiosity, what are the character concepts you don't think you'll be able to do?
huh, huh-huh...he said "titties"...cool! huh, huh
Nick Logue sold me on 4e!
I can't wait until Paizo is able to make a decision on what to do so that our freelancers can shamelessly shill our new stuff, too.
Heh. I'll shill ANYTHING for you Erik! Paizo...it's what's for dinner!
Nick Logue sold me on 4e!
Tobus is ridin' that sunbeam right right up your ass. They should be paying you extra for this kind of publicity, Nick.
Nick Logue sold me on 4e!Tobus is ridin' that sunbeam right right up your ass. They should be paying you extra for this kind of publicity, Nick.
Time for a new alias. Anything to get the word "ass" onto the messageboards eh Kruelaid, you carry sharpie markers into bathroom stalls dontcha!
Thank you Nick! :)
I can't wait until Paizo is able to make a decision on what to do so that our freelancers can shamelessly shill our new stuff, too.
And may WotC continue to appreciate the power you have over their potential future customers.
Well done Nick!
(my last post vanished)
EDIT: If you're sick of hitting refresh on the board of your choice, just to hear the latest bit of crap (positive or negative), you should join us over at Open Design. Intense brainstorming happening all the time in Blood of the Gorgon.
It's helped me forget about 4th edition until such time as there's actually something for a consumer to know.
Out of curiosity, what are the character concepts you don't think you'll be able to do?
Since you asked, a gnome bard. I'm not being hateful. I like playing small characters.
I find it... funny (both in the haha sense, but also in the funny-strange sense) that one of Paizo's lead freelancers has been doing playtesting of the new rules, while Paizo, as a company, hasn't been able to get even a glimpse of the rules until very recently.
Actually, did the NDA prevent you from even telling the rest of Paizo that you were a playtester? That would be a kicker.
So, they've had this resource very, very close to them but haven't been able to take advantage of it to make an informed decision about moving to 4E or not... Boggles the mind it does.
Actually, did the NDA prevent you from even telling the rest of Paizo that you were a playtester? That would be a kicker.
In fact it did! I've told NO ONE except my fellow playtesters until this thread! It's been a burden. I'm glad it's over with. Now I can come out of the closet!!!
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I find it... funny (both in the haha sense, but also in the funny-strange sense) that one of Paizo's lead freelancers has been doing playtesting of the new rules, while Paizo, as a company, hasn't been able to get even a glimpse of the rules until very recently.
Welcome to my world.
In fact it did! I've told NO ONE except my fellow playtesters until this thread! It's been a burden. I'm glad it's over with. Now I can come out of the closet!!!
Actually, did the NDA prevent you from even telling the rest of Paizo that you were a playtester? That would be a kicker.
Since you've been in there for so long I think it's only fair to give you a quick tour. Over there to the left is the cake table, although it's only for senior staff. The water cooler is down the end of the hallway, but you won't be able to reach that anyway. That desk over there is yours, someone will be along shortly to lock the manacles around your ankles (hence why the water cooler information is of no importance to you). Now get back to work you slacker! Tut tut, thinking you could avoid work by hiding in the closet... pfha. Amateur.
;-)
Since you asked, a gnome bard. I'm not being hateful. I like playing small characters.
Well, of course the gnome will be in the MM as a playable race last I checked, so you're good there. Until the actual bard class comes out, I'd build him as a high-Dex warlord, put on some leather armor (or no armor, if that's your preference), and pick out a weapon that you like (I prefer rapiers with my bards, but YMMV). You'll want to make sure you're trained in Arcana or multiclass with the wizard or warlock if you want to go with the more traditional arcane bard, or you might consider some rogue multiclassing if you want to go with a purely non-magical bard (which is my preference, as I like to play my bards like Thom Merrilin from the Wheel of Time novels).
Of course, when the bard class comes out, you can use that. I know the above isn't a perfect solution, but since I'd say that the bard will probably be an arcane leader (I don't know that for sure, of course, but it's my suspicion) then you can play the warlord (also a leader) and shade it with multiclassing if you like.
Or, rather, that's how I'd do it. As always, YMMV.
In fact it did! I've told NO ONE except my fellow playtesters until this thread! It's been a burden. I'm glad it's over with. Now I can come out of the closet!!!
Actually, did the NDA prevent you from even telling the rest of Paizo that you were a playtester? That would be a kicker.
I have heard that it will be difficult/impossible to convert previous edition adventures into 4ed. What is your opinion. (IMO adventures tell a story and the mechanics are able to be easily replaced.)
I find it... funny (both in the haha sense, but also in the funny-strange sense) that one of Paizo's lead freelancers has been doing playtesting of the new rules, while Paizo, as a company, hasn't been able to get even a glimpse of the rules until very recently.
Welcome to my world.
Now the real question is... which NDA supersedes which? If it's the playtest one he can't advise you based on his experience playtesting the rules, only through his "newly" acquired access to the rules by being a freelancer for Paizo.
More mind-boggling!
I am allowed to disclose things about the new edition I like so here it is...
As opposed to disclosing things you don't like. :P
By the way, I had you pegged for one when I first met you. I've been writing it on bathroom stall walls: "For a Good 4e Game, Call Nick".
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My knee-jerk reaction is to suggest a massive good cop/bad cop conspiracy between obvious parties. But instead, I admit I haven't the strength anymore to fight the good fight on this issue anymore.
I am absolutely disappointed that PAIZO seems to be "selling-out." There stood such a chance to do the right thing for the integrity of our game. Being advised to "buy and read" the new stuff by someone under legal contract who can only say the DMG is the best thing since sliced bread tells me there must be a lot of money to be made on 4E—because I thought the designers at PAIZO already knew how to run awesome games.
Also, the idea of shilling-out and plugging stuff to this community also seems a bit forward, if not too much just like what I hear from wizards.
So I am sickened that what was once a fun game now seems more about marketing, NDAs, and possible misrepresentations about who has seen these stupid rules.
This comes just a day after I took a look at the '07 rules for Star Wars minis, and realized I was probably already holding most of the 4E rules in my hand. Knowing Slavicsec's history with that game, I expect 4E will be Star Wars with swords.
I am taking my d20 and going home.
Good to know. Thanks for coming out Nick.
And thanks to Rodney for coming back to the Paizo boards. It's good to have people "in the know" around so it's not all just speculation.
I am absolutely disappointed that PAIZO seems to be "selling-out." There stood such a chance to do the right thing for the integrity of our game. Being advised to "buy and read" the new stuff by someone under legal contract who can only say the DMG is the best thing since sliced bread...
He didn't advise you to buy it.
Pick it up and read it in the store. You may really enjoy what you see there. It won't be for everyone, but it might be for you.
I think Nick was pretty straight with us and deserves a little respect in return for that. He came right out and admitted he couldn't say anything bad.
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Hi Rodney, welcome (back) to the Paizo boards, and thanks for sharing your views - even at the risk of intense flaming. (Which I'm very glad to see there has been none of!)
Until the actual bard class comes out, I'd build him as a high-Dex warlord,
Not to rain on the 4E love, but ... warlord? ~cringe~
<look again> ~cringe~... ah well. I suppose I'd get used to the name if I decide to go the 4E route. "Ranger" would probably be fairly cringeworthy as a class name if Tolkien hadn't sexed it up back in the day.
EDIT: Nick, is the name 'warlord' one of the things you like about the new edition? ;-)
I have a slew of questions I would like to ask you Mr. Logue...
But I will be kind and not taunt you with curiosity you can't answer.
However, if you can, can you give us your opinion* on if 4th Edition will be able to stand up to Golarion's standards?
*NOTE: Nick Logue is in no way supposed to speak for Paizo, or any of the staff. I am looking for his individual opinion based from someone who has written for Pathfinder before.
I totally apologize if that can't be answered by you.
And to be really fair, he said to give the game a fair chance. He didn't say that anyone that has ever played D&D will automatically love it. He said to give it a shot, and that it will serve some people, but not others. Honestly, that's all I really want to hear, that this game A) has some merits, but B) isn't going to be the end all be all of the D&D experience.
Stuff like this is a lot better than Scott Rouse going on EN World to ridicule people that have complained that the 4th edition designers have used the word "cool" too often, essentially saying that the problem is with all of the people that don't like the marketing, not with the marketing itself.
I don't think that if its good for Nick its automatically good for me, but I do know that Nick is a straight shooter, and that when he can give his full opinion, he will, and that in just saying that it might not be for everyone he has done a lot towards convincing me that he's got at least a pretty good reserve of objectivity.
I am absolutely disappointed that PAIZO seems to be "selling-out." There stood such a chance to do the right thing for the integrity of our game. Being advised to "buy and read" the new stuff by someone under legal contract who can only say the DMG is the best thing since sliced bread tells me there must be a lot of money to be made on 4E—because I thought the designers at PAIZO already knew how to run awesome games.
No offense...but what the hell are you on? Nick Logue is a freelancer and is not a full-time employee by Paizo (or WotC for that matter) - he is giving his personal opinion (in as much as he can). How does his opinion "sell out" Paizo in any way, shape or form? Or, for that matter, why is giving his thoughts "selling out?" (Yes, I am aware that he's only allowed to give positive thoughts - that's a separate issue. NDAs are what they are.)
If all the hubbub is chapping your hide, then why don't you wait and look at the final materials when they're released, instead of getting worked up over tidbits that are likely to change before they're released? Getting torqued up and being insulting isn't helping anybody, and your vitriolic diatribe is just adding to the negativity that is already pervading the boards.
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I am absolutely disappointed that PAIZO seems to be "selling-out." There stood such a chance to do the right thing for the integrity of our game. Being advised to "buy and read" the new stuff by someone under legal contract who can only say the DMG is the best thing since sliced bread tells me there must be a lot of money to be made on 4E—because I thought the designers at PAIZO already knew how to run awesome games.No offense...but what the hell are you on? Nick Logue is a freelancer and is not a full-time employee by Paizo (or WotC for that matter) - he is giving his personal opinion (in as much as he can). How does his opinion "sell out" Paizo in any way, shape or form? Or, for that matter, why is giving his thoughts "selling out?" (Yes, I am aware that he's only allowed to give positive thoughts - that's a separate issue. NDAs are what they are.)
If all the hubbub is chapping your hide, then why don't you wait and look at the final materials when they're released, instead of getting worked up over tidbits that are likely to change before they're released? Getting torqued up and being insulting isn't helping anybody, and your vitriolic diatribe is just adding to the negativity that is already pervading the boards.
I agree. I think the emotional response needs to chill so we can talk to each other instead of at each other.
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Stuff like this is a lot better than Scott Rouse going on EN World to ridicule people that have complained that the 4th edition designers have used the word "cool" too often, essentially saying that the problem is with all of the people that don't like the marketing, not with the marketing itself.
Do you have a link to that?
Stuff like this is a lot better than Scott Rouse going on EN World to ridicule people that have complained that the 4th edition designers have used the word "cool" too often, essentially saying that the problem is with all of the people that don't like the marketing, not with the marketing itself.Do you have a link to that?
Memo to All 4th Edition Designers and Developers
Yes, its meant to be humor. Maybe I'm humorless. But I didn't think that dismissing people that I feel have a legitimate concern about 4th edition information thus far from official sources with this joke does much to make me feel that such concerns are taken seriously.
The underlying problem with the "too much cool" complaint isn't the use of one word, its the fact that there is no substance and a lot of hyperbole in most of the posts and official announcements.
And for all of the heat he has taken, Rich Baker has provided some of the best actual news, while refraining from "its so cool we know you'll love it" style comments.
By the way, I had you pegged for one when I first met you. I've been writing it on bathroom stall walls: "For a Good 4e Game, Call Nick".
I had suspicions in another thread when Nick was talking about how 4e absolutely needs minis, unlike 3e. Maybe he's more transparent than he thinks!
The underlying problem with the "too much cool" complaint isn't the use of one word, its the fact that there is no substance and a lot of hyperbole in most of the posts and official announcements.
I kind of noticed the overuse of "cool," too. I think my English degree has more of a problem with this than any supposed problems with WotC marketing. Anyway, "it's all good." ;)