I have heard several people say they are tired of starting yet another AP at level 1 and then having it die very soon. There was discussion of running each book of the AP as a totally separate event. You would lose some of the storyline with non-continuous players, but you might get more people willing to honestly commit to several months rather than several years to complete one.
dunno, it was a thought I had read.
PBP is too slow for getting an AP done, unless the players and GM post in game over 10 times a day.
The weekly 3+ hour games are the ones likely to reach completion.
Weekly 3+ hour?
One game a week over 3 hours long, or more than one game (same campaign) each week over 3 hours
Real Life Table Top
A friend has an analytics project going that will hopefully help us understand any connection between Play by Post momentum (posting rates, DM turnaround, etc) and the success/completion of APs. Parsing current/active data is coming along but we’re having a hard time finding successfully completed campaigns to collect data from. Getting the community’s aid on that end would help tremendously.
We’re looking for PBP campaigns, here on the Paizo forums, that have completed an entire AP. If you can, please provide a link.
Here's one. Finished in four months.
If I were you, though, I wouldn't bother looking for completion. The above game is a rare exception. I'd focus more on volume/density (length of time it's survived/how frequently people post).
PL, how long start to finish on those?
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Unfortunately, how long a campaign’s been running doesn't necessarily help us build these stats. We’d like to be able to say something like, ”If you can maintain X posts per day, you’re Y% more likely to successfully complete an AP.” A long-running but incomplete campaign doesn’t help to that end.
There’s lots of great years-long campaigns out there (and if fun was the only goal, they’d be big winners) but like a couple others have said – folks want to finish an AP. We’re looking for the numbers that it takes to make that happen.
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I personally think Kobold Cleaver makes a good point. You might be asking the wrong question. Nor am I really convinced that X posts/day = completed AP. For my money, the issue is really how do you keep an AP-style game from falling over and keep it going for the long term. I have two games getting on for six years old and we are having fun, and obviously there is an end point in mind, but I'd be surprised if we get there much before about 2020. I'd also be quite surprised if the games folded before then. I might not have exactly the same crew of players (some founder members have come and gone) but I expect the games to continue if I can continue to DM them. Posting rate isn't the issue as such (though it is a factor) so much as being willing to invest the time and energy, both the DMs and the players. Also, are you looking at games which have failed, and identified what the factors are there? If you just look at games which have made it you'll get survivor bias.
Heh. I'm so used to seeing your alias I actually forgot that you're the one who showed me that link.
D'doy.
If you're looking at completed APs via PbP I suspect you'll have a very limited pool to draw on. There are a few exceptions, but most PbP games collapse and die within 3 months.
What might be interesting from your perspective is widening the definition of your success pool and seeing how many completed games of any length you can find.
If you do decide to take that route, I can offer a few :)
Hi yourself :) It's been a while, but I'm slowly making my way back to the boards. I'm re-training as a teacher in offender learning. I don't want to derail this thread, but if I survive the next couple of weeks, any chance you might be able to slot me back into Dark Sun?
Is there any advice to be had for a GM making far too many mistakes? I'm running a game now, and virtually every time I post, I make some small (or not) error. For instance, I just now forgot the animal companion had a Swim speed.
Double checking doesn't seem to help—I don't notice the error until it's pointed out. Is there any trick to this? I'm pretty sure my players are starting to get frustrated.
Is there any advice to be had for a GM making far too many mistakes? I'm running a game now, and virtually every time I post, I make some small (or not) error. For instance, I just now forgot the animal companion had a Swim speed.
Double checking doesn't seem to help—I don't notice the error until it's pointed out. Is there any trick to this? I'm pretty sure my players are starting to get frustrated.
It happens. A GM has a lot to remember and good players won't mind helping the GM over the many stumbles that can happen. The main thing is for the GM to keep things fun. Happens to me quite frequently as well.
In my experience, as long as you admit your mistake, most players will deal with errors from the GM. There are so few reliable PbP GM's that players will put up with a lot, as long as you keep showing up. Just don't try to argue your way through an obvious error; that is quite frustrating for players when they know you're wrong.
Reading through your posts carefully with 'Preview' before you send them, and consider what you would do if you were a player are the only ideas I have for reducing GM errors. I still make them with over 3000 GM posts.
Is there any advice to be had for a GM making far too many mistakes? I'm running a game now, and virtually every time I post, I make some small (or not) error. For instance, I just now forgot the animal companion had a Swim speed.
Double checking doesn't seem to help—I don't notice the error until it's pointed out. Is there any trick to this? I'm pretty sure my players are starting to get frustrated.
It gets worse with age too.
A friend has an analytics project going that will hopefully help us understand any connection between Play by Post momentum (posting rates, DM turnaround, etc) and the success/completion of APs. Parsing current/active data is coming along but we’re having a hard time finding successfully completed campaigns to collect data from. Getting the community’s aid on that end would help tremendously.
We’re looking for PBP campaigns, here on the Paizo forums, that have completed an entire AP. If you can, please provide a link.
Not sure if there are any yet. I could be wrong.
I'm in Aub's ROTRL campaign, and it started when the books came out; my Carrion Crown campaign same thing; we're half way through book two in that one.
I think the main drivers are as follows:
1) DM's ability to kick through logjams....i.e. the action lags and so you have to get things going again. Mickey Spillane, in crime novels, would have somebody kick a door in and start shooting, and this usually works pretty good. The DM ABSOF&+%INGLUTELY has to be in charge of game flow and keeping it running.
2) Player's ability/willingness to post. If you have multiple players who just won't post, you're dead in the water, and there's nothing you can do but start over. One or two,....you can bot them. Or have them "fall in a pit" for a while.
3) I think that it's actually best to have lags and lulls at times.
It sometimes gets kinda tedious, and sometimes the DM might have to take a week off to build encounters, or read the next part of the ap or whatever. If I'm making the next part up or whatever, forcing it in a day is often nowhere near as good as taking a week and waiting for The Muse to whisper in my ear.
I think that last point's actually pretty interesting, Heathansson. This may be too specific a question, but can you think of any particular occasions you took a break and it made things pick up better afterwards?
And thanks for your advice, everyone.
Is there any advice to be had for a GM making far too many mistakes? I'm running a game now, and virtually every time I post, I make some small (or not) error. For instance, I just now forgot the animal companion had a Swim speed.
Double checking doesn't seem to help—I don't notice the error until it's pointed out. Is there any trick to this? I'm pretty sure my players are starting to get frustrated.
Personally I keep a little notebook with notes to myself about those things I keep forgetting (like the names of animal companions) and that helps some. But mostly I think the best thing is just to be honest with the players in discussion and say that you're going to need them to keep track of their own stuff and will probably need frequent reminders. People are usually more forgiving when you set their expectations ahead of time. There's just so much to keep track of as a GM that nobody ever gets it all right.
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I definitely sometimes give myself a mental health day. I haven't really taken any longer periods off (well, outside of me being on vacation and away from keyboard), but I'm very upfront about when I think my posting rate will be slower than usual for some reason (Superstar, wedding planning, covering for other co-workers on vacation, etc.).
I think communication is a huge deal in PBPs. I'm honestly less frustrated that so many PBPs die out quickly than I am that the GMs don't have the basic decency to say so (same problem with players). Unless you're actually in a car accident or something along those lines, I have a lot of trouble believing you can't find a couple minutes to jump online one last time and say you have to bail.
I've cut a couple games short myself (while having finished two mods and still being in the midst of two others) but each time I've announced that I was calling it a night and only done so after IMO making multiple efforts to get things moving again (I found myself posting less often because I didn't feel like my players were posting regularly and it became vicious spirals).
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Yes, I've had breaks from time to time. Some are enforced - holidays and the like - but you can get burnout. And I agreen with motteditor - I've cancelled a few PbPs I've been DMing, and I've told the players. Just disappearing is bad form.
As for KC's mistakes, it happens. I probably make loads of mistakes.
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A friend has an analytics project going that will hopefully help us understand any connection between Play by Post momentum (posting rates, DM turnaround, etc) and the success/completion of APs. Parsing current/active data is coming along but we’re having a hard time finding successfully completed campaigns to collect data from. Getting the community’s aid on that end would help tremendously.
We’re looking for PBP campaigns, here on the Paizo forums, that have completed an entire AP. If you can, please provide a link.
Not sure if there are any yet. I could be wrong.
I'm in Aub's ROTRL campaign, and it started when the books came out; my Carrion Crown campaign same thing; we're half way through book two in that one.
I think the main drivers are as follows:
1) DM's ability to kick through logjams....i.e. the action lags and so you have to get things going again. Mickey Spillane, in crime novels, would have somebody kick a door in and start shooting, and this usually works pretty good. The DM ABSOF*&#INGLUTELY has to be in charge of game flow and keeping it running.
2) Player's ability/willingness to post. If you have multiple players who just won't post, you're dead in the water, and there's nothing you can do but start over. One or two,....you can bot them. Or have them "fall in a pit" for a while.
3) I think that it's actually best to have lags and lulls at times.
It sometimes gets kinda tedious, and sometimes the DM might have to take a week off to build encounters, or read the next part of the ap or whatever. If I'm making the next part up or whatever, forcing it in a day is often nowhere near as good as taking a week and waiting for The Muse to whisper in my ear.
^ all this. Plus, as someone who purely sucks at rules, I find that if you are honest and willing to retcon, most of the times players will understand. As for breaks ... Well, I have had some doozies. After my daughter passed, I didn't feel creative for almost six months. I am still dealing with creative issues, I just started reposting a week ago after a months absence. Despite this, I have two 5+ year games going. It all depends on the communication.
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Wow. Sorry to hear about your daughter, Dungeon Monkey. I don't have words and can't imagine what you must still be going through.
I agree about being willing to retcon with rules. I've honestly had a couple times in different campaigns where I realized I botched an encounter so badly, I just shrugged and said "You know what, guys, let's skip this one and move on." No one's ever been upset about it.
If you're finding the rules mistakes are upsetting you, maybe ask someone for help. I know Feral recently asked us in his Runelords game to help track some stuff for him, and I've had someone do the same in another game too. Especially when you're running multiple games, and they get to higher levels, combat can be time- and labor-intensive. I ask my players to make sure they post the basic stats somewhere I can easily find them and good players will note when they've got various effects going or if they have some special materials to overcome DR or whatever.
I think that last point's actually pretty interesting, Heathansson. This may be too specific a question, but can you think of any particular occasions you took a break and it made things pick up better afterwards?
And thanks for your advice, everyone.
Nothing specifically exactly.
My "Isle of Dread" game, though, is all my doing. I beg borrow steal a lot from published adventures, but it's mostly my scripting.
Sometimes, I have no idea what exactly to do next, and I just might see a movie I like or read something in a story or even a game book and then I'm off on a tangent, thinking about the idea and then coming up with the next bit of the adventure....does that make sense?
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I also try to throw random interesting hooks out there a lot, and see what gets a nibble from the players.
If somebody likes something, I go with it, if not I let it go away.
I think that last point's actually pretty interesting, Heathansson. This may be too specific a question, but can you think of any particular occasions you took a break and it made things pick up better afterwards?
And thanks for your advice, everyone.
Nothing specifically exactly.
My "Isle of Dread" game, though, is all my doing. I beg borrow steal a lot from published adventures, but it's mostly my scripting.
Sometimes, I have no idea what exactly to do next, and I just might see a movie I like or read something in a story or even a game book and then I'm off on a tangent, thinking about the idea and then coming up with the next bit of the adventure....does that make sense?
That's pretty much how I run my Silver Rose game. I came up with a story arc involving an elven kingdom that was a shameless ripoff of Gondolin. I was reading the Silmarillion at the .
Is there any advice to be had for a GM making far too many mistakes? I'm running a game now, and virtually every time I post, I make some small (or not) error. For instance, I just now forgot the animal companion had a Swim speed.
Double checking doesn't seem to help—I don't notice the error until it's pointed out. Is there any trick to this? I'm pretty sure my players are starting to get frustrated.
Make a actual formal list of the mistakes you have made. Clearly and carefully handwritten. I said it that way for a reason. Taking the time to clearly and carefully write something helps hold it in your short term memory long enough for it to migrate to you long term memory. (Yes, I know that is not technically correct. But it close enough for an explanation that people can follow.)
Then before you click "Submit Post" read the list to see if anything on the list is involved in what you are about to submit. Read the entire list each time. Don't just glance at it an say "nothing here." After you go through it with a particular item a few dozen times, you can probably eliminate it from the list since you will have it burned into your memory to check it by then.
When you make a new mistake, add it to the list.
If the list gets too messy, re-write it.
It is a hassle, but it works for almost everyone that actually follows through and does it. Almost everyone that says it doesn't work, didn't really give it a try. They quickly scribbled some incomprehensible and illegible scratches on a scrap of paper they never bothered to check. Then gave it up after just a couple of glances.
Curious: I'm setting up a PbP campaign that is running much more like a traditional game than an online one. We will meet every Saturday, play till 6-8 (or until somebody leaves), then depart.
I'm used to 2e freeform combat (we only use "miniatures" (stylized Lego minifigs) to show what our characters look like)) so running it like a standard table sounds viable.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
I don't think there is any problem with that scenario, assuming your players have dedicated themselves to being available at that time. There are virtual table top sites that allow you to play a virtual real-time game quite handily. PbP is traditionally a more spread out method of play, time wise, but if all involved are good with a structured play time I think it would work fine.
What do you guys think?I don't think there is any problem with that scenario, assuming your players have dedicated themselves to being available at that time. There are virtual table top sites that allow you to play a virtual real-time game quite handily. PbP is traditionally a more spread out method of play, time wise, but if all involved are good with a structured play time I think it would work fine.
I think it would be difficult for me at least to type fast enough for a 'live' play by post. I think it would work better with a voice chat. But it is worth a try if you've got people willing.
I also try to throw random interesting hooks out there a lot, and see what gets a nibble from the players.
If somebody likes something, I go with it, if not I let it go away.
Agreed, I've often just thrown out a half dozen potential half formed NPC's and subsequent plot-hooks for the players to pick up on any they wish.
Whilst at the same time, you have to not be too precious about NPC's or a specific plot-point - or if it's essential communicate it to the players.
I also try to throw random interesting hooks out there a lot, and see what gets a nibble from the players.
If somebody likes something, I go with it, if not I let it go away.
Agreed, I've often just thrown out a half dozen potential half formed NPC's and subsequent plot-hooks for the players to pick up on any they wish.
Whilst at the same time, you have to not be too precious about NPC's or a specific plot-point - or if it's essential communicate it to the players.
Funny story on this theme: a few years back in my Silver Rose game a player ended up in the sewers under Sigil. She came across a group of Darakhul ghouls traveling to a hidden portal to the dread subterranean Ghoul Imperium (I am a big Open Design fan). I spent a long time making up that encounter, but all I got was 'cool!' for a reaction, lol. The player wasn't interested at all. But, thems the breaks sometimes.
I played in a Google Wave campaign once. I think it was at the bridge where I was starting to work out what playstyles would annoy the GM and other players and what styles would help keep things going. Not quite there yet, though.
Still, I played this kickass sarcastic kobold crossbowman. Lots of fun.
Looking for alittle advice on PbP. I'm currently playing on PFS PbP on here and the GM hasn't posted for over a week. I don't want my character stuck in a PbP limbo (especially as I need him for other events.) What's the procedure/ettiquette for removing a character from a PFS PbP? Do you count as playing the Scenario and thus can't play it again?
Probably ought to post that question in the PFS section.
But I think if you haven't had 2 encounters you don't have to count it as having played the scenario so you could still play it again later. That is what someone told me but I haven't seen it in writing, so I won't swear it's true though.
It is annoying when the GM goes absentee. But I would try to give it a little longer if you can.