I recently read some info from the "Races and Classes" book released by WotC. Just more crap about 4E that I despise: arcane spell failure is gone for Wizards, magic schools are gone, alignment system is practically gone, and so on...it's so horrible. My favorite past time is being torn asunder so much by the day...it's really sad.
So I've come to the realization that 3rd Edition was just a ploy by WotC all along to get 4E out. 4E SHOULD have been the 3E, pretty much.
Think about it. They stated that they started work on 4E two years ago. That's 2005. Two years, just 2 years, after 3.5E was released---and just FIVE years after 3E was released.
Is it me, or is that the quickest edition change for the game ever? 1E and 2E lasted 10 and 11 years respectively, I believe. And D&D is still around! Why so fast? Why the sudden rush? How much quicker will it get this time? Do you think it'll be an edition change again in 5 more years?
If you look between the lines, though, you'll come to the startling revelation that 3rd Edition was just one, long, giant playtest for 4E all along. And it sickens me to see WotC destroy their fan and loyal customer base over quick profit...
Just figured I'd share this thought with everyone here.
Actually, I would have no problem with 3.x being a "playtest" if 4E were building on 3E. Instead, 4E is a new system. And look! They have (yet another) Forgotten Realms campaign setting to sell you!
So, yeah, it's about the money. (Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but I've had enough.)
So, if 3e was a playtest for 4e, would that mean that the first 5 versions of Hero System were playtests for the 5ER?
How about the first 5 of Chaosium?
WEG SW?
Alternity a playtest for 3e?
Basic for Advanced D&D?
Of course it is! Just like the theory of evolution, everything bases itself on the older version in hopes that it becomes a newer, better version.
And no, I'm not impressed with the 4e stuff.
This is what I think might have happened. 3.5 was going along just fine, then all of a sudden someone decided to grapple a troll (as seen in the video), this caused a frenzy among the Wotc elite and thus a new edition was born (or is being born with about a three year gestation period). So the lesson to be learned here is (and I mean this) never grapple a troll. Even with the great 4th edition rules for grappling (yeah right) or you will cause yet another edition to rapidly follow.
P.S. If you want to see really bad grappling rules take a look at 1st edition.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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So, if 3e was a playtest for 4e, would that mean that the first 5 versions of Hero System were playtests for the 5ER?
How about the first 5 of Chaosium?
WEG SW?
Alternity a playtest for 3e?
Basic for Advanced D&D?
Of course it is! Just like the theory of evolution, everything bases itself on the older version in hopes that it becomes a newer, better version.
And no, I'm not impressed with the 4e stuff.
What bothers me the most is the incompatibility. Champions stuff from decades ago is still fairly compatible with current.
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/equip Club of Dead-Horse Beating
If your reomve 3.5 from the equation, and "simply" look at 3E as a single entity, then we are talking about an 8 year life span.
I agree its a bit short, but it's not such a short life to hyperventilate about. The problem IS 3.5 IMO. Get rid of that fiasco and people might have been more inclined to swallow 4E.
That said, 4E is clearly not simply a "fix" of 3E. It's a new game with all the "cool new game design theories". HASBRO should know better. Monopoly's core mechanic hasn't changed and its the "world's most popular board game". The worlds most popular roleplaying deserves better treatment.
/unequip Club of Dead-Horse Beating
...
So I've come to the realization that 3rd Edition was just a ploy by WotC all along to get 4E out. 4E SHOULD have been the 3E, pretty much.
...
If only we could give them that much credit. Of course, if that were truly the case, I would still be playing 2E (which I had house-ruled half-way to 3E anyway).
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I would like to think that every game company does two things.
1. As soon as a game is released start looking for ways to make it better.
2. Understand when a game is in a state of perfection and leave it alone.
Very few games ever get to that state of perfection: chess, backgammon, monopoly.
RPGs will never hit perfection - they are to darn complex and flexible to iron out all of the bugs. Call of Cthulhu is the closest I have seen to a perfect state.
How can you suggest that something one appreciates subjectively, according to our own gaming values and ideals can be perfect, or even that it falls short of perfection?
Flawed in terms of some standard.
Effectively does this or that.
Explain what you like with this or that descriptor.
...and so on...
Something like that, sure.
Very few games ever get to that state of perfection: chess, backgammon, monopoly.
You overlook the most sublime game of them all: Go.
What bothers me the most is the incompatibility. Champions stuff from decades ago is still fairly compatible with current.
Math is math. Champions is Math. Look at 4th and 5th (and 5ER). Same rules, new company, new book (from what I hear, never played much of 4th).
Admit it. 2e was flawed. 3e was a step in a new direction. 3e was on it's way even under WotC (although, an entirely different direction from what I've heard/read). 1e was 2e with the post 1e supplements. 3e was turned on its ear because a new company went a different direction.
Only time will tell what 4e will be. One can only hope that it isn't broken like 3e (after 5th level, a fighter can hit most anything), 2e (slow and cumbersome) or 1e (can't help here, not old enough).
Which leads me to hope that 4e will be math. If it's broken, I have Hero. I also have 3e. Heck, I have 2e. Even better, I have Basic. Just because the new edition is out, doesn't mean I can stop having fun (heck, I could save thousands of dollars because of it)!
Actually, I would have no problem with 3.x being a "playtest" if 4E were building on 3E. Instead, 4E is a new system. And look! They have (yet another) Forgotten Realms campaign setting to sell you!
That's pretty much where I am at. If 4E was the Return to the Golden Age of D&D type of thing, I'd be all over it. But instead, there's nothing here that resembles D&D. Its closer to Exalted. I love Exalted, but Exalted ain't D&D.
So, yeah, it's about the money. (Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but I've had enough.)
The intro adventure with pregen characters and quickstart rules costs 5 bucks less then the core rules. Yea, it's all about the Money.
Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition: The Search For More Money
I agree its a bit short, but it's not such a short life to hyperventilate about. The problem IS 3.5 IMO. Get rid of that fiasco and people might have been more inclined to swallow 4E.
I'm quoting the above to make a different point (see paragraph 3).
I've run the numbers on this as well (posted somewhere else). Chaosium, 6 editions in 25 years. GURPS, 4 editions in 20+ years. Hero, 5.5 editions in 20ish years. WEG Star Wars, 2 editions in 10 years. Vampire, 4 editions (by my count), 16 years. D&D, 5 editions in 30+ years (not counting Combat Options, the divergence of Basic and Advanced).
You're looking at an edition every 5-6 years with pretty much any game system. Is this really so bad? Look at your computer software, the life cycle of those is considerably less until you realize one very important thing: "Your computer is not outdated until it cannot do what you want it to do." Same goes for RPGs.
Don't get me wrong. My 2e and 1e collection is over $6k at discounted price. My 3e should be around roughly $4k. I obviously need to actually look at and read the books I buy.
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You lost me when you put on the tinfoil hat...
This time, I'm with Sebastian.
Too much of a conspiracy theory. Don't forget that 2nd Edition had itself a revision in 1995 (the one with black bordered covers), so while it's true that 3rd edition had a shorter run, it's only a couple of years of difference.
This obviously, doesn't change my opinion about the new 4e of one single iota, where marketing issues are really marginally important.
Weren't you banned over at ENWorld for various posts in the 4E forum? (If you weren't, my apologies. Then I just disagree with the "conspiracy theory" and commend you to classes on five year business plans.)
You're looking at an edition every 5-6 years with pretty much any game system. Is this really so bad?
I love the argement, "RPGs are still cheap when compared to other forms of entertainment." I remember oil companies used the same argument when gas passed $2.50/gallon. "Its still cheaper then a gallon of milk." Yea, well I can't power my car on milk nor can I have my own adventures with cable TV. So saying its cheaper then something that is not an RPG is an apple and an orange scenario.
I love the argument, "RPGs are still cheap when compared to other forms of entertainment." I remember oil companies used the same argument when gas passed $2.50/gallon. "Its still cheaper then a gallon of milk." Yea, well I can't power my car on milk nor can I have my own adventures with cable TV. So saying its cheaper then something that is not an RPG is an apple and an orange scenario.
Invalid comparison. You can't run your car with anything but gas. You can have your own adventures with a small pile of rocks.
Additionally, apples and oranges don't enter into it. It's perfectly reasonable to say that an RPG is cheaper than something that isn't an RPG, because you obviously can't say that an RPG is cheaper than an RPG. Complaining about comparing an RPG to other forms of entertainment is like complaining about comparing an iPod to other MP3 players.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You're looking at an edition every 5-6 years with pretty much any game system. Is this really so bad?I love the argement, "RPGs are still cheap when compared to other forms of entertainment." I remember oil companies used the same argument when gas passed $2.50/gallon. "Its still cheaper then a gallon of milk." Yea, well I can't power my car on milk nor can I have my own adventures with cable TV. So saying its cheaper then something that is not an RPG is an apple and an orange scenario.
Milk and oil aren't really substitutes for each other. Various entertainment forms are to a much greater degree. To the extent we are comparing apples and oranges, we are still talking about food. If you are hungry, you can eat either one. And if apples are a tenth of the price of oranges, you will probably eat more even if they have different nutritional properties. Now, if we were talking apples and socks, the basis for comparison is much more difficult.
3e and 4e are the products of two completely different companies, and two almost completely different groups of designers.
3e originated around the gaming table, whereas 4e originated around the boardroom table. 3e was designed by gamers to please gamers, whereas 4e was designed to please old men in grey suits who think "gaming" means the blackjack table at Mohegan Sun.
That's what I think.
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Well said. This is the main reason there will be so many dramatic changes in 4th edition. It's less about making the game better and more about making Hasbro's bottom line better. There's not anything wrong with them making money from D&D. I do, however, strongly object to making money from D&D by destroying the things that made the game great.
Well I have to disagree with the whole conspiracy theory as well. Perhaps it would have worked as an argument in the 80's. However, gaming is its own industry now and in order for an industry to survive it has to make money and reinvent itself to keep up with the "new" generation.
D&D is no exception, however, I believe (as I think most of you on this board do) that WOTC/Hasbro does not need to destroy the rich tradition/history that makes D&D what it has become up to this point. I mean every edition of the game has left its own mark upon the game. Whether it is good or bad. Never the less it added to the history of the game.
Of course, 4E is not just going to leave a mark, it "may" leave a hole in the way of the history of the game. At least how many of us who play the game now see it. 3E put the game on its ear with many new mechanics and ideas, however, it was at its core still Dungeons & Dragons. 4E from what I perceive is NOT!
RPGs will never hit perfection - they are to darn complex and flexible to iron out all of the bugs.
"Complex" and "flexible" strike me as contradictory terms.
I'd agree that most modern RPGs are too complex and it's precisely this complexity -- demanded at least partially by players who'd rather have reams of rules for everything than trust in GM judgment calls -- that drives the tread mill of new editions every so many years. An RPG, D&D included, will only ever reach a "perfect state" when its fanbase is comfortable with allowing lots of room for interpretation in the rules.
But D&D fans, by and large, don't want that and WotC is happy to provide them with what they do want, thereby setting into motion a self-fulfilling prophecy. Call of Cthulhu is only perfect because its fans generally don't want rules for everything and the style of play it encourages is very old school make-it-up-if-there's-no-rule stuff that you won't find much of anywhere else anymore.
3e originated around the gaming table, whereas 4e originated around the boardroom table. 3e was designed by gamers to please gamers, whereas 4e was designed to please old men in grey suits who think "gaming" means the blackjack table at Mohegan Sun.
Y'know, I've met a few of the folks who are working on 4E. (You know, seen them at a seminar at conventions, that sort of thing.) And I have a hard time imagining any of them, the actual designers, as these corporate goons you implicate. Those designers are way too enthusiastic about their home campaigns, their favorite game worlds, and their cool new characters to be anti-gamers.
AND, I work for a major corporation. I have an even harder time imagining anyone on Hasbro's board of directors coming up with any part of the design approach we're seeing described in, say, messages from Mike Mearls. The board of directors may ask what a particular division is doing to stay profitable, but they're looking at everything as red or green cells on vast spreadsheets. They may not even know what happens when you pass Go.
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It's all fine and good for the anti-4E crowd to get together and show solidarity in their 4E-hate. I won't tell anyone that they're wrong when they say, for example, that Saving Throws and Spell Resistance should have been treated as sacred cows rather than as disposable mechanics. That's a legitimate opinion.
But when your whole contribution is to attribute anti-gamer motives to the designers - to me, that just comes across as silly. (Or at least, lazy.)
Try to keep the anti-4E arguments on topic, folks. Actual mechanics they've mentioned, actual design changes they've told us about, fluff changes that mess with your campaign's assumptions, that sort of thing. Thanks.
I now return you to your regularly-scheduled rant.
Weren't you banned over at ENWorld for various posts in the 4E forum? (If you weren't, my apologies. Then I just disagree with the "conspiracy theory" and commend you to classes on five year business plans.)
Yes that was me. I was banned because I stated my hatred for 4E just like any other 4E hater.
The real reason I was banned was because it was done at ENWorld. Who are now nothing but huge sell-outs to WotC. Thanks to Morris and his "meeting" with the WotC representatives that ended in an "under the table handshake" deal at its conclusion.
ENWorld is promoting 4th Edition to the fullest, reaping benefits from WotC no doubt. WotC knows EnWorld is the biggest RPG forums to go to to hype the crowd up for their $th Edition. It would make business sense to partner up with the manager of the biggest RPG Forums on the Internet.
I stated this. It's most likely very true. The evidence is there if you look closely. And I got banned for it.
Well, I never called ENWorld a sellout on their forums, I had a thread that talked about how WotC bamboozled us by providing us playtest books, not books to expand our great Revised 3E system (Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, etc.). All these were just ploys to test the waters for their new edition, not for their love of the game and to clean up the current edition and take it into new directions. It was a statement of opinion like any other 4E Hater thread...and I got banned for it.
Goes to prove to you that ENWorld doesn't WANT bad publicity for 4E. Why? They're sellouts, that's why. It's obvious how much hype and promotion they're giving 4th Edition. For what reason, I am unsure. That must've been settled between Morrus and WotC at their meeting during GenCon.
D&D is no exception, however, I believe (as I think most of you on this board do) that WOTC/Hasbro does not need to destroy the rich tradition/history that makes D&D what it has become up to this point. I mean every edition of the game has left its own mark upon the game. Whether it is good or bad. Never the less it added to the history of the game.
Of course, 4E is not just going to leave a mark, it "may" leave a hole in the way of the history of the game. At least how many of us who play the game now see it. 3E put the game on its ear with many new mechanics and ideas, however, it was at its core still Dungeons & Dragons. 4E from what I perceive is NOT!
My sentiments exactly.
I wouldn't be so bestial when it comes to WotC and 4E if it were not for that fact. By killing so many sacred cows of the game, it's become unrecognizable. And by implementing so many MMORPG-styled mechanics, it's become even less of an RPG. Thanks to DI, it's now basically it's own primitive MMORPG.
Someone here quoted it perfectly: "WotC beat up D&D and took its stuff." They're reinventing the game to make it completely new, completely their own, and completely alienating the "stale, grognards" that have been the true fans of the game who has been keeping it going for so many years because we're locking them from making a huge profit.
Why mess with it? Why not make the rules work around the traditions instead of the traditions being hacked to make room for the rules.
Call me a Conservative D&D gamer, but that's what I am. Freshen the game up, fine. But keep things the way they are!
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?
The truth behind who killed JFK, the moon landing, and how the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missle.I see...
This tinfoil hat, does it still work if I were to wrap the tinfoil around a regular hat to make it more comfortable?
When did I write that? Misquoting me isn't very respectful. I'm stating an opinion on why I believe 3E was just one big 4E playtest. I don't deserve to be ridiculed, I never did that to anyone else.
I mean, come on. It only lasted 5 years. 2006 and 2007 do not even count. The books were made to test the waters for 4E, the designers even stated that, Tome of Battle being the biggest seller.
I think the most important question you need to ask yourself, Razz, is whether or not you enjoyed 3rd Edition. If you did, then there is no reason to bemoan the fact that it may or may not have been a "playtest" for 4th Edition (which, as someone wisely pointed out, is the case with every edition of an RPG, as each old edition serves as an example upon which to build new editions - they're all "playtests"). If you liked 3rd Edition, don't let the new crap wreck the good times that you had in the past - you had 5-8 good years of D&D, and to hell with the new stuff.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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When did I write that? Misquoting me isn't very respectful. I'm stating an opinion on why I believe 3E was just one big 4E playtest. I don't deserve to be ridiculed, I never did that to anyone else.
And, in some people's opinions, the U.S. gov't fired a cruise missle at the Pentagon.
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks.
If only D&D was still owned by TSR (or, whoever would have purchased their assets in bankruptcy), I'm sure things would be much better. Lord knows they had good relations with their fans and rarely sued them.
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?
Keep in mind that the vast majority of gamers are in their 30's - I'm sure that WotC is worried that if they don't attract new players to D&D soon, the old fans are eventually going to "die out," so to speak, along with the game. Hence the company's emphasis on new splatbooks like the "Dungeon Survival Guide". (Which, by the way, was nice in that it gave brief synopses of some of the most famous dungeons from D&D's history - a great way to get new players involved in the deep history of the game.)
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?
Don't anybody dare say the name of She who must not be summoned.
i don't think you are using the words correctly.
diaglo "OD&D(1974) is the only true game." Ooi
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3e and 4e are the products of two completely different companies, and two almost completely different groups of designers.
I agree. 3e was the creation of Wizards of the Coast as run by Peter Adkinson and headed by Monte Cook, Johnathan Tweet, and Sean K Reynolds. 4e will be Hasbro's first "real" venture into the field.
3e originated around the gaming table, whereas 4e originated around the boardroom table. 3e was designed by gamers to please gamers, whereas 4e was designed to please old men in grey suits who think "gaming" means the blackjack table at Mohegan Sun.
Here is where I disagree with you. Have you actually looked at the list of creators?
Rob Heinsoo -- Who is, in my opinion, most responsible for the changes I don't like, worked on Feng Shui for Atlas Games, copyread the 3rd edition of Masks of Nyarlethotep, and worked on Nexus. Feng Shui and Nexus share design elements with 4e, and d20 modern for that matter, some of which I think are not the best choices. But I am willing to give Rob a chance.
Chris Perkins -- In addition to a crapload of 3.x stuff, he worked on the design of the Shackled City and all the d20 Modern stuff.
Richard Baker -- Combat Options (2nd edition), Birthright, Gamma World 4th edition, Alternity. All of which seem to inform his design choices.
Mike Mearls -- Unknown Armies, Hunter, Godlike, AEG stuff, and Iron Heroes which might be why he was hired.
Jonathan Tweet -- Hmm...3rd edition, Ars Magica (the creator), Over the Edge. He's another of the guys who brought "new techniques" to 3rd edition that I thought were bad choices, but he's a talented and creative game designer.
The list goes on, but the fact remains that these designers have brought their own biases to the creation process. No suit told them to favor "cinematic action" and "anti-vancian" magic systems. These guys already had those biases. They have written articles critical of alignment, of Paladins as LG only, of class based systems.
What they haven't done, at least to my experience, is show the disdain for playtester preferences that Sean K. Reynolds and Monte Cook readily blogged/commented on after the initial release of 3rd edition. Monte and Sean's mantra seemed to be, 3rd would have been better if we didn't have to listen to those pesky playtesters.
Christian Johnson
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Now, if we were talking apples and socks, the basis for comparison is much more difficult.
Let's see -- doing a test now...
I'm going to need more catsup for a more accurate comparison...
And...
Tune in next time when we compare F-22s with igloos.
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks.
I had to scroll back up and see if the quote attributed to Razz was another "paraphrase." It was real.
I'm still in shock.
Funniest post of the year. I just read it to my husband, and he laughed so hard he scared the cat.
2006 and 2007 do not even count. The books were made to test the waters for 4E, the designers even stated that, Tome of Battle being the biggest seller.
If you look between the lines, though, you'll come to the startling revelation that 3rd Edition was just one, long, giant playtest for 4E all along.
This doesn't compute. So the last two years were testing the waters for 4E, but in fact they've tested the waters with 3E all along? Shouldn't you then be saying 2000 - 2007 didn't count?
But to be more to the point: Well, of course they've "used" 3E as a playtest, because they've looked at the feedback from 3E. What's the alternative? Putting out a system and never ever listing to the feedback again to ensure it's not abused as an "open playtest"?
Cheers, LT.
I dunno, Razz, I suspect your starting a new "4E is the devil!"-type thread every few hours when the moderators specifically asked people to chill out for a few days may have had a little more to do with it than secret handshakes between Morrus and WotC staff. :-\
Especially given the fact that, y'know, Paizo has had and continues to have an ongoing and profitable relationship for years, but they haven't yet booted anybody for being anti-4E.
-The Gneech
I miss the days of TSR...when the game was made for the sake of the game, not profit...anyone else here feel the same?I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks.I had to scroll back up and see if the quote attributed to Razz was another "paraphrase." It was real.
I'm still in shock.
Funniest post of the year. I just read it to my husband, and he laughed so hard he scared the cat.
QFT. For the sake of the game? That's what she* said!
El Skootro
Wow, this thread wouldn't be so funny if you weren't actually serious about this Razz. I keep waiting for the punchline but it seems that there isn't one.
Thanks also must go to Sebastian for making this thread even funnier than it already was.
Olaf the Stout
Razz, seriously dude: MEDS.
(Alternately: LIFE).
Okay, who invited Circvs Maximvs over here?
** spoiler omitted **
El Skootro
d00d,
i asked nicely not to say her name.i just pray two others don't do the same.
3e and 4e are the products of two completely different companies, and two almost completely different groups of designers.
3e originated around the gaming table, whereas 4e originated around the boardroom table. 3e was designed by gamers to please gamers, whereas 4e was designed to please old men in grey suits who think "gaming" means the blackjack table at Mohegan Sun.
That's what I think.
I'll have to disagree with the first sentance. WotC created 3e and 4e. TSR was going to do a 3e, but it was in a totally different direction (Fear the Boot interview with Ryan Dancey if I remember correctly).
You're looking at an edition every 5-6 years with pretty much any game system. Is this really so bad?I love the argement, "RPGs are still cheap when compared to other forms of entertainment." I remember oil companies used the same argument when gas passed $2.50/gallon. "Its still cheaper then a gallon of milk." Yea, well I can't power my car on milk nor can I have my own adventures with cable TV. So saying its cheaper then something that is not an RPG is an apple and an orange scenario.
I never put a price comparison on this statement, but it stands to need more clarification.
"Is this really so bad?" Taken with the context from the post prior to this one, the game is usually better as the version number gets higher. Therefore, "Is this really so bad?" Re-read the previous paragraph and the rest of this one.
Well, I never called ENWorld a sellout on their forums, I had a thread that talked about how WotC bamboozled us by providing us playtest books, not books to expand our great Revised 3E system (Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, etc.). All these were just ploys to test the waters for their new edition, not for their love of the game and to clean up the current edition and take it into new directions. It was a statement of opinion like any other 4E Hater thread...and I got banned for it.
Darn you Microsoft, McDonalds, Guiness Book of World Records, anything that ends with X.0, Revised, or a sequetial number!
Progress.
I mean, come on. It only lasted 5 years. 2006 and 2007 do not even count. The books were made to test the waters for 4E, the designers even stated that, Tome of Battle being the biggest seller.
If you really want a conspiracy, look at all the books that came out in 3e from other vendors and look at the books that came out after 3.5.