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Yet there is no actual exploration. There is nothing between Magnimar and Hook Mountain. My players hate it when there is a long journey and it consists of "ok, you arrive at your destination." That kind of adventuring is boring.
Another thing you could do to avoid the rewriting is to use the second Part of the Pathfinder's Journal in PF #2. I think that it would make much sense (and an easier voyage)for the PCs to avoid Sanos Forest and instead following the Yondabakari River up to Whistletown (which would give you an opportunity to include the Boggards from PF #2 as an Side Trek).
And instead of using Black Magga at Whistletown (which could easily lead to some major story complications), you could include the Argorth from PF3 instead. As this aberration is a spawn of an Mother of Oblivion, you could use this to foreshadow the encounter with mammy BM later in the adventure.
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Thanks but in fact I think that this may have been one of the reasons Eando is to travel this way on his voyage to Kaer Maga. I write reviews of Pathfinder for a german page and when I first read PF 2's journal entry I was not sure what to think about it cause it didn't seem to have any connection to the Pathfinder adventures. I'm kinda glad that I haven't finished the PF#2-review yet 'cause when I took my first look at HMM this piece just seemed to fall in place.
This is actually one of the things I like about Pathfinder. All those things they include into Pathfinder make sense even if you have to think about it a bit first. This to say in this thread may sound a bit funny but I'll wait for Nic's response before I take sides. ;)
After reading through PF3's bestiary, I was a bit surprised that a weakened Black Magga is the PC's foe rather than a more level-appropriate Argorth. Sure, the legendary Mother of Oblivion is ultimately more evocative, but unless she makes a reappearance later in the AP that is somewhat lost. What's more, the appearance of an Argorth or three foreshadowing Black Magga might make for an overall more memorable arc. Anyway....
So you've never looked your player in the eye and said "sorry, the module writers didn't think of that"?
I suppose breaks "continuity" or whatever, but with all the Monty Python jokes and requests for pizza, it's not like you can maintain a 100% in game atmosphere for the entire session.
I've been in groups like that, but in the game I currently have, I enjoy a very focused player--the price is that he expects a very coherent game. He goes to a lot of trouble trying to understand what's happening. There needs to be something there for him to understand or both of us are frustrated.
If you're having trouble reconstructing the timeframe of various previous events, isn't okay to admit to the players "I don't know, I'll have to figure it out later"?
But then I have to figure it out later. I have not had an easy time figuring out any coherent timeline for the pre-PC events in this module. It really looks as though the fort fell only about 2-3 days before the PCs arrived, but there is no way to reconcile this with the news reaching Magnimar and the PCs traveling from there.
The problem with constructing exact timelines is that you paint yourself into a corner. If the PCs get delayed or side-tracked somewhere early in the timeline, then they have no chance to save the town.
I don't ask for a timeline of the events in the module: I ask for a timeline of the events *before* the module. These are fixed. Did Paradise sink before, during or after the fall of Fort Rannick? When did the ogres go to Skull Crossing? etc. My player invariably captures and questions enemies and he immediately asks these questions, trying to understand the situation. It's very hard when the answers are distributed in snippets of text throughout the module. It is even harder when they're internally contradictory. I'd love a timeline, and I also think the discipline of preparing one would improve the quality of the modules.
My fix to the Magnimar problem would be to say that the thing which upset the Mayor was not the fall of Fort Rannick, but rumors of events in that area (he's hearing about Mokmurian, in fact). Then you are free to call day 0 the day the PCs reach the Graul farmstead, and tell the GM how many days before day 0 each event happened. (Unfortunately I didn't know I was in trouble early enough to use this fix. Must make timeline for #4 in advance.)
(I'd be happy to sign an NDA and do timelines for Paizo, if volunteer work on that would be acceptable.)
Mary
All I can say is that I hope Nick helps us out before I get to # 3... :)
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Here's what I've got so far:
several years ago: Lucrecia arrives in Turtleback Ferry, buys and refurbishes a barge
?: Kaven is charmed by Lucrecia, and after a few months is so smitten he no longer needs to be charmed
1 month ago: Barl Breakbones kills Grolki and other Kreeg ogres
?: Black arrows scout the Kreeg ogres and are caught
?: Kaven delays his patrol while Barl attacks Fort Rannick
?: Surviving Black Arrows get caught by the Grauls
?: Lucrecia sinks the Paradise and relocates to Fort Rannick
today (day 0): Lord Mayor Grobaras asks the PCs to investigate Fort Rannick
day 7: PCs taking a barge arrive in Turtleback Ferry
day 9: PCs on horseback arrive in Turtleback Ferry
day 19: PCs on foot arrive in Turtleback Ferry
I'm not sure how the ogre attack on the dam fits in.
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Hey All!
The holidays are upon me, so I'm ignoring my family to respond! :-)
Naw, just kidding, I love my folks, but I feel bad that work has kept me from chiming in here.
First off, I would say that a lot of the OP's original concerns have been dealt with pretty well...though they were definitely valid concerns. The original Hook manuscript was a bit of a mess. The fault is all mine on this one, I got very confused as to what the final word count was supposed to be and turned in a 60,000 worder instead of a 40k one. James did an amazing job editing it down, but naturally a lot of continuity issues crept in as whole sections went out the window.
For example, just to give you an idea just HOW much extra stuff was in there: Paradise was in the original manuscript as a full on side trek. Lucrecia was encountered there instead. It just couldn't fit, so it got cut and Lucrecia got moved to Fort Rannick.
Enough excuses on my part and let's look at some things I think people might find interesting:
First off...logic is the beginning of wisdom and not the end of it, as Spock pointed out in Star Trek VI. Logic doesn't always need to be perfect. Remember that man and monster are not machines. They make bad choices, show cowardice, apathy, or simply get overwhelmed by life sometimes.
A good example might be the Graul homestead. First off, NO ONE in Turtleback Ferry has the cajones to go out and try and take on the Grauls. Remember the Grauls are absolutely terrifying (even to heroic PCs, all the more so to pathetic NPCs). It's important to keep in mind that humans don't rule out near the Hook, they survive...and barely succeed at that.
The Black Arrows are there to make sure the Kreegs and other tribes of ogres don't come down en masse and wipe out a town...but they were often pressed to the very limits of their endurance doing so. A thorn in their side like the Grauls is something that will just never go away. What to do? Organize a force of Black Arrows large enough to go down and slay them? Easier said than done when you have a whole mountain and surrounding environs to defend.
Also, the Grauls are smart, they stay off the radar. They snatch a person here or there, but never to enough to warrant a full on attack or response by Black Arrows. You'd be amazed how much atrocity people will let slide if it doesn't jump up in their face (look at our present situation overseas). On occasion a few Black Arrows have taken it upon themselves to go tangle with them. Some Grauls end up dead (like Mammy's animtated plaything-sons) but the Black Arrows always get routed. Keep in mind, the Grauls pack a lot more punch than the Arrows, and they have a spellcaster (the Arrows don't), giving them another huge advantage. The Black Arrows could never afford a war of attrition with the Grauls.
The Arrows got more ink in the original manuscript and they weren't very "heroic" people by any stretch of the imagination. They were survivors, who did what they could to help others. They were seriously overtaxed and spent most of their time inside the fort walls. Think the Night Watch in George R.R. Martin's books. They can't go out and fight every foe, worse they have to pick and choose their battles very carefully in order to survive. On more than one occasion, the Black Arrows have hid behind their walls as others suffered Kreeg attacks without, simply because they couldn't help them and risked what little protection they offered by trying to do so.
But in truth, the Grauls are pretty close for comfort. It's easy enough to move em farther off the beaten path a bit if you like.
Okay, as to the trolls and ogres at Skulls Crossing. Yeah, let's keep in mind that both parties are ridiculously stupid here. The problem with logic is that it often doesn't apply so well to stupid monsters. Try to think in their tiny, often cowardly and spiteful minds, instead of your own really good one. Oh, and read a few pages of John Gardener's Grendel and you'll immediately know what I'm talking about here.
Trolls can't do a head count and figure out how many ogres they are facing. They only know "lots!" and "more than us." So at first when it seemed the ogres couldn't kill them, they were like "YEAH! EAT! FUN!", but then after the ogres start chucking them off the walls, well, the trolls stopped having fun and said "this bad...they many...we few...run!" The trolls avoided them thereafter most likely. The ogres keep chipping cause they are incredibly stupid and terrified of failure. Barl already killed their Granpappy, who was the biggest baddest mofo they EVER KNEW, and so going back and saying "sorry boss, we didn't do it" isn't really an option. They probably want to abandon the task even, but maybe their boss isn't letting them. In the original manuscript the ogres are pretty much enslaved by religion too. They are descended from Ogre Mages who used to serve at the feet of the Runelords. They still have a warped oral history of the "Dread Ones" and what not, and they recognize the rune Barl has. They do anything he says, and they are zealous to death about it really (though on occasion they get distratcted into foolishness...cause they are dumb ogres afterall). It only takes the leader of the chipping crew not giving up and the others are forced to keep it up. Also, no one says its been static. Maybe there were 10 ogres left, but some ran away, others got killed by their leader, or eaten by a troll. It's just that WHEN the PCs arrive there are only five left.
Moving on to the pit fiends. They are f+*#ing pit fiends. Of course no one walked in there and f!*$ed with them. They are pit fiends. That's only for heroes like the PCs to be ballsy enough to do. Trolls probably smell the brimstone on those fiends from a mile away and avoid it like the plague. I assume until recently when the pit fiend's became incredibly weak, they could just snarl and display some of their power inside the circles to scare away any of the stupid creatures that might come in and see them. Skulls Crossing has been a place crawling with trolls and other dumb monsters for ages, so it's not like anyone who would have wandered in would know ANYTHING about magic circles, they just see terrifying demons wreathed in fire and flee. It's not too hard to believe no one bothered them really. Until recently they were scary demon overlords! If I were playing this adventure, I wouldn't even go in there now!!! James adapted this section to include the pit fiend engines (which I LOVE!), and I was like "holy s!%%!" That's crazy stuff. I don't know if most PCs I play would even go in that place. PIT FIENDS! JEZUZ!
The flooding. Floods don't make sense. The water goes where the water goes. Usually to low places. But we don't have a topigraphical map of the area, so my thoughts were that Turtleback was lower than a lot of the surrounding region, now the flood's path there doesn't have to be directly down through the river. It could meader its way through valleys and what not. Also, the person who witnessed the flood might have been on higher ground and not come from the town, but from nearby and took an old trail through the woods to Fort Rannick. Don't assume the road is the only way people get about. That's the main thoroughfaire, back trails and back roads are plentiful in every stretch of countryside.
Okay, moving on to Black Magga...yeah, in the original manuscript the PCs aren't really supposed to fight her as much as they are supposed to collapse the church on her and watch the debris drag her under...is she dead? We don't know...up to the DM. However, that whole cool encounter ate up a ton of words, so it got streamlined by necessity. Still I think she's pretty easy to drive off. Is the problem that she ends up in Claybottom? If so, someone already mentioned this I think, but Claybottom is HUGE. Black Magga being there is fun. Now she's lock ness, cause she's in a lake closer to human settlements. Good stuff, but doesn't really threaten Turtleback Ferry in the long run. Read up on Magga in the Bestiary...who knows what crazed machinations a Mother of Oblivion might be up to. She might be happy to lie in the deeps of the lake for another age (or at least until the PCs are 15th level) before hatching some dire plot of destruction on the world.
In conlusion: logic sucks. It eats up SOOOOO many words. If an author wants to take the time to explain away every single fact in a module, the module's meat goes out the window. Logic is pretty easy to come up with on your own, so I try not to waste too many words explaining what's going on. With Hook, larger logic flaws pop up than in other modules because of the over-writing, but even so, I don't find any of them too hard to explain away.
Also, I like to avoid timelines if at all possible. I find they can make DMs slavish in their running. Sometimes due to some interesting tidbit or two concerning what's happened up till now with their home game, or something interesting about a PC, the DM may want some wiggle room with times and dates (I know I appreciate it). If others disagree, I'm sorry about not including one. Again, well-defined timeline means higher word count, keep in mind, and I for one would rather include more interesting stuff than just something that provides logic-flow-chartiness to the adventure. Note: Some adventures absolutely REQUIRE a timeline though, I just don't think Hook falls into that category.
Anyway, I hope the above helps some. Let me know if you have other questions/concerns or if there is anything else I missed. Again, sorry Hook was a little thin on the back half, it really was just a factor of the over-writing (I was confused on word count issues, and I tend to overwrite a little anyways...the combination meant MAJOR OVERWRITE!). There is so much more I wanted to include in Hook, but you don't have that luxury with a fixed word count sadly, one reason I am excited about another project I am working on right now where I can just keep going and going like the energizer bunny. Stay tuned.
Nick
P.S. Sebastian, I purposely refused to include a backstory for the ship. It's a crazy ass hook for the DM to do whatever they want with. But yeah, I can see how that might cheese you off. Sorry about that. I have a bunch of theories on the ship, but everytime I picked one, I thought - "NO! Don't limit it!" :-)
P.P.S. But yeah, Sebastian, the back half of the module is thin and that's a problem due to the overwriting. Apologies.
Wow nick thanks for the explanation! I still think I'm only using pts 1-3, and then having the stone giants attack the reclaimed fort rannick-defending the fort in a siege would be a very cool change of pace...
Wow nick thanks for the explanation! I still think I'm only using pts 1-3, and then having the stone giants attack the reclaimed fort rannick-defending the fort in a siege would be a very cool change of pace...
I ADORE siege adventures Ebolav. Have fun with it!
Happy Holidays everyone! And Good Gaming to All!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks Nick. I guess I can deal with the spooky misplaced ship for the sake of a spooky misplaced ship, but damn, you know you've got too much creativity when you're tossing something like that out as a random creepy encounter.
Is there any chance you could/would post a rough outline of the cut stuff. I've got to be honest, the gruels are cool and interesting, but I find a number of the cut elements (particularly the pleasure boat) to be much more compelling.
Thanks Nick. I guess I can deal with the spooky misplaced ship for the sake of a spooky misplaced ship, but damn, you know you've got too much creativity when you're tossing something like that out as a random creepy encounter.
Is there any chance you could/would post a rough outline of the cut stuff. I've got to be honest, the gruels are cool and interesting, but I find a number of the cut elements (particularly the pleasure boat) to be much more compelling.
Ha! Thanks Sebastian!
A lot of the pleasure boat stuff actually found a home in Edge of Anarchy interestingly enough, though it underwent a lot of transformation obviously. When I get back to my home computer (after the holidays) I'll do my best to post up some useful stuff from the overwritten draft if it's okay with James that is (WHAT DR. JACOBS SAYS, GOES!).
Wow nick thanks for the explanation! I still think I'm only using pts 1-3, and then having the stone giants attack the reclaimed fort rannick-defending the fort in a siege would be a very cool change of pace...I ADORE siege adventures Ebolav. Have fun with it!
Happy Holidays everyone! And Good Gaming to All!
Well I haven't DMed since I was 15 (I'm almost 30 now)...any suggestions on good resources? Granted I have time, we're starting # 2 next weekend...
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dang now I want to see the 60,000 word version :)
Suddenly things make more sense. See, yet another reason I like Paizo, where else do you get a chance to talk to the author and have him explain some things. That is just so cool.
Merry Christmas Nick... hope you find something awesome under the tree.
dang now I want to see the 60,000 word version :)
I agree. Not for the squick, you could even skip that (or not, I'm not picky), but for the plot that almost was. ^.^
Would it be at all possible to offer this to purchasers/subscribers as some kind of electronic-only bonus? I don't even ask for formatting, just the raw text would be awesome.
ETA: Never mind, I missed your last post and I see you're way ahead of me :)
Wow nick thanks for the explanation! I still think I'm only using pts 1-3, and then having the stone giants attack the reclaimed fort rannick-defending the fort in a siege would be a very cool change of pace...I ADORE siege adventures Ebolav. Have fun with it!
Happy Holidays everyone! And Good Gaming to All!
Well I haven't DMed since I was 15 (I'm almost 30 now)...any suggestions on good resources? Granted I have time, we're starting # 2 next weekend...
Ha! I just ran a WILD ASS siege adventure for The Jade and a few others a few weeks back. But I don't have anything written down on it. I'm working on a siege adventure right now as well, but it won't see print for a little while sadly (end of next year maybe) so that doesn't really help you.
I'll try and come up with some good ideas...I'd definitely pick up Heroes of Battle and Red Hand of Doom though. HoB is filled with good stuff for this kind of adventure and Red Hand of Doom is THE definitive kick-ass mass-battle module of 3.5 as far as I'm concerned. Duh, Dr. Jacobs wrote it, so obviously it is the smack-daddy-bomb-ass-hotness!
it is the smack-daddy-bomb-ass-hotness!
Sigh...
it is the smack-daddy-bomb-ass-hotness!Sigh...
Sorry Rich. I meant: It's the Think-of-England-my-dear-crumpets-tart-tit'sup-cheerio!
:-)
How dare you use cuss words like crumpet in a public place.
I have a good mind to come over and give you a damn good bunch of fives for mutilating her most royal highnesses language.
However, as it is Christmas I shall let you off and allow honour (nhey!) to be satisfied by reminding you of the current review score between Skinsaw and Hook.
MNaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
How dare you use cuss words like crumpet in a public place.
I have a good mind to come over and give you a damn good bunch of fives for mutilating her most royal highnesses language.
However, as it is Christmas I shall let you off and allow honour (nhey!) to be satisfied by reminding you of the current review score between Skinsaw and Hook.
MNaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
Curse you old man! Crumpets in yo face Rich! Skinsaw!!! NOOOooooOOooOOOOoOoOOOOO!
and what are you doing up at this time in the morning - is the bed on fire?
Did you like the Beatific Ones Young Master?
Thanks for the additional explanations Nick, much appreciated. Also, I would throw my vote in for the rough draft :)
Happy Holidays!
Ha! I just ran a WILD ASS siege adventure for The Jade and a few others a few weeks back. But I don't have anything written down on it. I'm working on a siege adventure right now as well, but it won't see print for a little while sadly (end of next year maybe) so that doesn't really help you.I'll try and come up with some good ideas...I'd definitely pick up Heroes of Battle and Red Hand of Doom though. HoB is filled with good stuff for this kind of adventure and Red Hand of Doom is THE definitive kick-ass mass-battle module of 3.5 as far as I'm concerned. Duh, Dr. Jacobs wrote it, so obviously it is the smack-daddy-bomb-ass-hotness!
Awesome--this is EXACTLY the type of referrals I was looking for...we only play ever 5 weeks, and typically take 3 sessions per book, so that means I've easily got 20+ weeks to research this...funny conversation I had with my wife last night, when discussing finances
Wife-"and so that leaves us each with XXX to spend on discretionary stuff each month"
Me-"Right, but where do my paizo and thoughthammer purchases come in?"
Wife-"paizo? why do you need more D&D stuff? You have 2 whole shelves of it?!"
Me-"um....."
Now at least I can say "because I got these great recommendations for siege adventures that will help me run # 3...granted, my wife still calls my game sessions "mass geekburger fests," (geekburger, of course, is taken from stephanie tanner of full house fame) but I DID get her to play runebound a few weeks ago, for the first time...but I don't think d&d is in her future ;)
[
I'll try and come up with some good ideas...I'd definitely pick up Heroes of Battle and Red Hand of Doom though. HoB is filled with good stuff for this kind of adventure and Red Hand of Doom is THE definitive kick-ass mass-battle module of 3.5 as far as I'm concerned. Duh, Dr. Jacobs wrote it, so obviously it is the smack-daddy-bomb-ass-hotness!
Is James really a doctor? If so, quite the renaissance man! :)
.......Oh, and read a few pages of John Gardener's Grendel and you'll immediately know what I'm talking about here......
Grendel, eh Nick? You quote only my most favorite book of all time. In fact the library at my school recently made "Read" posters with photos of us teachers with our favorite books, and mine has me posing with John Gardner's Grendel in hand.
thanks for the clarification. I hope to get to running this adventure sometime in the next 2 years or so (still have to get to Savage Tide).
In conlusion: logic sucks. It eats up SOOOOO many words. If an author wants to take the time to explain away every single fact in a module, the module's meat goes out the window. Logic is pretty easy to come up with on your own, so I try not to waste too many words explaining what's going on. With Hook, larger logic flaws pop up than in other modules because of the over-writing, but even so, I don't find any of them too hard to explain away.
Also, I like to avoid timelines if at all possible. I find they can make DMs slavish in their running. Sometimes due to some interesting tidbit or two concerning what's happened up till now with their home game, or something interesting about a PC, the DM may want some wiggle room with times and dates (I know I appreciate it). If others disagree, I'm sorry about not including one. Again, well-defined timeline means higher word count, keep in mind, and I for one would rather include more interesting stuff than just something that provides logic-flow-chartiness to the adventure. Note: Some adventures absolutely REQUIRE a timeline though, I just don't think Hook falls into that category.
I just can't really agree. I mean it might use up some word count but I think making it so that an adventure hangs together well and is internally consistent is words well spent. These things should make sense and its a major bonus if your players stop the hacking every so often and actually try and figure out whats going on.
If I'm being asked between choosing one more slice and dice encounter or logical consistency within the adventure I'm going to take the logical consistency pretty much every time.
Being able to explain away every quirk in an adventure is OK but its better if events follow logically from their premises rather then the DM constantly coming up with completely out of left field explanations for why things are the way they are.
So the Ogres and Trolls might be too stupid to keep fighting, fine I got no problem with that, but this sort of thing should have been on display somewhere else in the adventure. A letter found in the Fort maybe or a story told by one of the rangers. There is more to the game then hacking and slashing and Paizo products usually do a good job of displaying that by giving us cool, thought provoking encounters but having those encounters also make sense is critical as the line between having your players say "thats awesome!" and having them say "this is dumb, it makes no sense at all" is really not that wide and often rests on things following logically from A to B for the players.
I don't really buy that a time line constrains the DMs hands. If you have some idea about what was more or less expected then a DM can choose to modify this. Its when the DM has no friggen clue whats going on except for vague hints scattered through out the text that this is going to bite him in the ass.
Not having a clear idea of when things are supposed to have taken place and then to have contradictory information that seems to imply that things either took place weeks ago or they took place days ago does not give us freedom to design this to fit our campaigns. It gives us total freedom to answer a thinking players question by babbling incoherently while madly flipping back and forth through the adventure trying to make heads or tails of a question thats not actually answered and seems to be in a state of flux. Considering this I'd prefer to have a time line that I can modify if needed.
I just can't really agree. I mean it might use up some word count but I think making it so that an adventure hangs together well and is internally consistent is words well spent. These things should make sense and its a major bonus if your players stop the hacking every so often and actually try and figure out whats going on.
If I'm being asked between choosing one more slice and dice encounter or logical consistency within the adventure I'm going to take the logical consistency pretty much every time.I'm not talking about hack over consistency at all. In fact if you check out most of my adventures you'll see my trend is much less hack and more plot. I just mean that if you blow words trying to explain every detail of when, where, why, and who, then you sacrifice a LOT of words, not some, a lot. Also, I agree Hook could have been clearer. I'm just saying it's not too hard to come up with the explanations by yourself, while it's harder to do stats and create really awesome stuff for the PCs to do, so I'd rather use more words giving readers that, and less explaining things in great detail.
Being able to explain away every quirk in an adventure is OK but its better if events follow logically from their premises rather then the DM constantly coming up with completely out of left field explanations for why things are the way they are.
I don't think any of the explanations I gave are out of left field really. If anything, I think the OP or her players were reaching too hard in their quest for logic really. Over-thinking why monsters do things or don't do them is not really that helpful all the time. They are monsters, most are alien in their way of thinking, many are stupid, and they are all totally f*$!ing crazy really (They eat people). So they don't think like we do, or like strategy computers. That was the only point I was raising. If I spend time describing every single NPC and monsters motivations for everything they do to a tee, we have maybe only 15 encounters per Pathfinder adventure instead of 50. If I include a detailed timeline we have even less. It's really about bang for your buck and keeping it simple when it comes to explanations, sometimes things can seem inconsistent, but it's not too hard to figure out really. Try this: Imagine a manuscript that addresses the original points Mary called out (not that they are bad points): Now I have to explain how nobody bothered the pit fiends for thousands of years!!?!? Why? It's fairly self-explanatory to me.
The problem here isn't flawed logic as much as it is assumptions about the logic because the logic maybe wasn't clear enough. But the solution (like wasting sentence after sentence on things like: "Now reader, see here, the reason Turtleback Ferry flooded but word still got back to the fort about it was because topographically speaking Turtleback is lower in elevation, and when the Storval Deep overflowed its banks it ended up taking a more Easterly route through a system of valleys and lowlands to get to Turtleback, thus leaving the main road intact, not to mention dear reader that there are several back trails through the woods locals use regularly, and a witness (who would of course have to be on higher ground watching the flood take place, maybe a shepherd out with his flock of goats nearby who watched as the town was nearly swallowed by the deluge) could take these trails to get to Rannick and beg the PCs for aid." That's already 130 words or so down the drain. It adds up fast, and the reason I know this, is that I used to write adventures this way and James schooled me on not making mountains out of molehills (for which I am eternally grateful...it's worth mentioning here that James isn't just an amazing editor, but also an amazing mentor who guides, instructs and offers nuggets of game design wisdom that blow my mind on every project I work on with him).
A much better solution, is to only offer the PCs information they themselves have access to. It's not like they frickin know when the ogres got to Skulls Crossing. I think mystery is important in an adventure. Why pony up all the facts all the time. Let the PCs live in the world, not analyze it to death from the outside. I don't even tell players how many foes they are facing sometimes, I find a little ambiguity is more realistic. It's not like in a dark cavern filled with a rushing waterfall, I, the simple human with no darkvision is going to be able get a clear headcount on the ettercaps crawling all through the web-infested place, much less figure out exactly how far away each is from me (I don't do square counting in my home games, I find it destroys the dramatic punch of a scene, but obviously that's just for my home games and not for published adventures). In my opinion players saying "that's dumb, and makes no sense at all" have very little trust in the module writer or their DM and aren't really trying to enjoy the world of the adventure, afterall, they only have access to the facts they see and experience in game really, which isn't a lot to go off of.
Also if the big mystery of Hook Mountain is what friggin time the ogres got to Skulls Crossing, well then that's pretty boring as mysteries go, so harping on it seems odd. Mysteries rock (they are my favorite type of adventure really), but not all adventures have to be mysteries where you figure out what's going on and unravel the clues. Certainly Hook isn't one of these.
For me, you need to keep players guessing and keep up the mystique of the fantasy world they are in. Don't let it get too logical is my credo. Now, as Mary pointed out, some PCs really like to logicially figure things out (detective type characters, or wizened sage types) and for them you have to pony up all the facts, especially when they have skills that give them access to them. So in this regard Hook lets you down a little bit, or at least you as the DM have to do a few quick mental two-steps to give them clues they are looking for or answers to questions they ask during interrogation. I think Mary is doing a great job satisfying her players in this regard and I applaud her. I just don't think this type of game is synonomous with "logical" or even "realistic." Life is about questions and not answers. It's a rare PC who can discern the answer for everything, and sometimes that's awesome to play, and Mary is delivering the goods for the PCs interested in unraveling the details. Good stuff.
So the Ogres and Trolls might be too stupid to keep fighting, fine I got no problem with that, but this sort of thing should have been on display somewhere else in the adventure. A letter found in the Fort maybe or a story told by one of the rangers.
But this information is utterly meaningless and offers the PCs no clues. It's not even interesting. Why would I waste a HANDOUT (talk about eating up word space) like a letter, or a massive amount of boxed text on when and why the ogres were dispatched to the dam. You get to the dam, some friggin ogres are messing with it, you have to kill them. The revelation is a lot more fun than a letter or a story. You learn about the problems at Skulls Crossing after dealing with Turtleback...if there was a letter in the fort, then Turtleback is completely negated as an encounter. That's fine if you don't like the encounter but otherwise it turns an exciting way to let the PCs know something's up at the dam (FLOOD!!!) into a boring way (letter.). The way you reveal information should be dynamic and fun. Encounters are better than boxed text in my personal opinion is all. Give the PCs something to do as they unravel the info.
I don't really buy that a time line constrains the DMs hands. If you have some idea about what was more or less expected then a DM can choose to modify this. Its when the DM has no friggen clue whats going on except for vague hints scattered through out the text that this is going to bite him in the ass.
One of the biggest complaints I get about Chimes at Midnight is the set timeline. That's why I'm saying this. Sometimes it's really important for the DM to be able to play with things. When people see a timeline they tend to get caught up in it too much I find. This is just my experience.
Not having a clear idea of when things are supposed to have taken place and then to have contradictory information that seems to imply that things either took place weeks ago or they took place days ago does not give us freedom to design this to fit our campaigns. It gives us total freedom to answer a thinking players question by babbling incoherently while madly flipping back and forth through the adventure trying to make heads or tails of a question thats not actually answered and seems to be in a state of flux. Considering this I'd prefer to have a time line that I can modify if needed.
Inconsistency sucks, and Hook is definitely a culprit in a few cases. For this I apologize. It really was just a matter of the overwriting (take a look at other adventures I've written and you'll see they don't have timelines and yet have no real "logic" problems). I promise to avoid this problem in the future and not let you fine folks down. Merry Christmas everyone!
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I don't think any of the explanations I gave are out of left field really. If anything, I think the OP or her players were reaching too hard in their quest for logic really. Over-thinking why monsters do things or don't do them is not really that helpful all the time.
I think that, rather than creating situations which are hard to understand and then deleting the explanations because they take up too much space, it might be better to try to arrange situations that readily make sense and don't need explanation.
My player is not going to abandon the idea that things should make sense. Yes, ogres are stupid: but they need to eat, and would not stay on top of a dam with no food for a month or more. If I tell him "It doesn't make sense, that's just the way it is" I'll end up with a bored, disengaged player who is not enjoying the scenario anymore.
A couple of small things, a few lines each, would help a lot with the logic flow of Hook Mountain:
(1) Magnimar doesn't send the PCs because Fort Rannick has fallen; the timing for that is impossible. It sends the PCs because of rumors of ogre and giant activity. Fort Rannick actually falls 2 days before the PCs arrive, whenever that is. (Also, it worked a lot better for my group to have Shalelu ask them to go, rather than the Mayor.)
(2) Describe the road to the Fort as "The road clings to the high bluffs, away from the flood-prone river."
(3) Put a small outbuilding on the east end of the dam, and have the ogres fort up in there behind a troll-proof door.
(4) Either put the Grauls further away, or give 2-3 sentences on the situation: "Both the townsfolk and the Black Arrows know that ogrekin lair in these woods, but so far the Grauls have been cautious enough, and tough enough, that no one cared to root them out. Now, however, they are emboldened by the fall of Fort Rannick and feel they can do anything they please."
(5) If you don't like a timeline, at least two small facts about _Paradise_: when did it arrive, and when, roughly, did it sink?
I appreciate that having to cut a 60K module to 40K was a horrible shock. I don't envy you the experience. But it was much less fun for me to run than the previous two, because I spent so much of my time apologizing, scouring the modules for hints, swearing at the inconsistencies, and generally being unable to satisfy my player's basic requirements: events need to make sense.
If there's some way to improve matters without taking up too much space, I'd really urge you to consider it. I don't think you need extensive motivation sections (though I personally would not introduce Black Magga at all if she is to be given no motivation; use one of the lesser worms instead). But if you are *not* making an interesting mystery, the best way to avoid a lot of awkward questions is to make the situation straightforward and in need of little explanation. Don't give creatures complex motivations and then ask the GM to read your mind.
Mary
Mary,
I agree with you. The explanations and changes you made are great for your group. I also agree that Hook suffered from the overwriting (I've apologized like six times for it already...look above). I've pledged to ensure I don't do the same again like six times (look above). I was just bringing up some points about logic. Like it doesn't matter as much as people think where monsters, adventure, and drama are concerned. Also, don't overthink too much or encourage it. I'm not talking about you. If you read my post above, you'll see I applaud your satisfaction of your specific players wants and needs...it's there go look-see.
Why would someone from Magnimar send some locals ALL THE WAY up to the Hook based on rumors? The Black Arrows have ALWAYS handled things up there. If you want to change the timeline like your suggesting, I suggest you bring politics into play: A high ranking official in Magnimar hates the current leader of the Black Arrows and hopes to undermine their authority in the region (maybe he wants his own son among the Arrows to be in charge there instead), so he sends the PCs to "help out" which just makes Lamatar Bayden look bad. There ya go, a hook that suits your timeline that is more interesting and creates drama (Jakardos is probably a big supporter of the ex-commander and when he finds out why the PCs were sent, and who sent them, his gratitude gets muddied with suspicion).
Maybe the ogres brought rations, or were eating their own dead. They ARE cannibals afterall...hell, maybe that's why there are only five left. It's not hard to come up with these explanations, but you're right, if word count allows (it didn't in Hook and that's my fault) they could be explained by the writer.
Yeah, move the Grauls further back. Great suggestion. I said so several times already. Thanks for catching this problem Mary.
As to the road, I can't spend my time second guessing what illogical conclusions players may make about how flooding works and compensate for them. Floods don't travel in straight lines, quite the opposite. In all fairness the flooding could have never even washed out the road even if it wasn't on a high ridge...and the road DOESN'T MATTER...I've already pointed out there would be other ways for the messenger to get the news to Fort Rannick (back trails). C'mon when you go hiking there are hundreds of trails on any one mountain, I didn't really think anyone playing the game would actually think the one road on the map is the only way to get around. My bad, but I can't worry about what weird conclusions one specific group of players might draw and try to overcompensate for it in my writing. I've got other things on my mind when I'm designing an adventure.
As I've mentioned before Paradise was IN the original adventure manuscript. It didn't sink until the PCs sank it. But that had to get cut. Not James' fault. Mine. I overwrote by 20,000 words...that's a lot of words. I apologize for doing so. I pledge not to let it happen again.
I appreciate that having to cut a 60K module to 40K was a horrible shock. I don't envy you the experience.
Actually the only thing I found horrible about realizing I'd overwritten, was the fact that I knew the adventure would then be weaker for you and other readers Mary. I could care less about my personal vanity. I don't like letting people down. I really don't like letting James down, and I like even less letting you and other readers down. I don't need to "consider putting in explanations" I always have in the past, I just f*~+ed up with Hook. Sorry about that. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.
Things happen on a timeline when you are writing Mary. Trust me, I wish I had done better with Hook, but I mixed up the word count and left James with a hefty editing task and not a lot of time to do it in. Neither of these things will happen again (Pathfinder was a new line back then, we freelancers were still figuring a lot of things out about it and the new world). If you don't want to cut me some slack though, that's okay. I'm sorry the adventure didn't work out well for you (for the eighth time now). I hope you enjoy others in the line more, and I pledge to ensure these kind of problems don't creep up again in my adventures (they never have before really...oh and there's the eighth pledge).
Enjoy your New Year's everyone. I'm taking a break from these boards for a good long while. The regular spanking sessions are wearing my arse thin. Thanks for the feedback and concerns folks. Keep em coming, I'll be back in a couple of weeks for another toushe smack and I'll do my best to answer everyone's questions then. Till then enjoy the holiday season.
I've seen 'logic' complaints like this from Nick's adventures in the past. With Nick we get great flavor and NPC personalities, amazing locations and creepy scenes, but sometimes the logic isn't quite as tight as some people prefer.
I agree with Nick - every little situation and logic fallacy doesn't need to be explained away. I'd rather see Nick continue to use his great imagination and storytelling abilities to full effect than slow him down and hinder him with tightening up the logic in his adventures.
In the case of Hook Mountain Massacre, he got confused and wrote 60,000 words instead of 40,000 and, in the course of editing, a few more logic inconsistencies than normal crept up. I can live with that.
Hey Nicholas,
I'm sorry; I don't read the whole board and I didn't realize (until looking around now) that this was going to come across as a bunch of people jumping on you.
I just wanted to say, there were bits of this one I really liked, and I appreciate you writing it. The little girl bones in the privy; the layout of Fort Rannick; the layout of Skull Crossing; Myriana's court; and the forty-foot dead giant, which is *really* bothering my player. ("Forty feet? You sure you aren't exaggerating a bit?" "No." "Oh. *That's* why all Thassilonian architecture is so grossly oversized." PCs go away feeling very small.)
Mary
Hey Nicholas,
I'm sorry; I don't read the whole board and I didn't realize (until looking around now) that this was going to come across as a bunch of people jumping on you.
I just wanted to say, there were bits of this one I really liked, and I appreciate you writing it. The little girl bones in the privy; the layout of Fort Rannick; the layout of Skull Crossing; Myriana's court; and the forty-foot dead giant, which is *really* bothering my player. ("Forty feet? You sure you aren't exaggerating a bit?" "No." "Oh. *That's* why all Thassilonian architecture is so grossly oversized." PCs go away feeling very small.)
Mary
No worries Mary! Good gaming to you and yours, and a Happy New Year to ya!
Nick
I'd rather see Nick continue to use his great imagination and storytelling abilities to full effect than slow him down and hinder him with tightening up the logic in his adventures.
Nick--for what it's worth, logic I can easily come up with. Cool settings and storylines are gold, however. Please keep 'em coming--your adventures, Mr. Jacobs', and Mr. Pett's I consistently prefer over even my own work--and as I'm fellow of little modesty, that means a lot from me!
Thanks for the kind words Kirth! I'll do my best to keep serving up goodness. I'm certainly being kept off the streets by my workload right now, and you'll have a few more adventures by me in the next three months or so. I've also got some very exciting new projects in the works that I can't wait to say more about, but can't do so just yet. Stay tuned!!!
I'll do my best to keep serving up goodness. I'm certainly being kept off the streets by my workload right now, and you'll have a few more adventures by me in the next three months or so. I've also got some very exciting new projects in the works that I can't wait to say more about, but can't do so just yet. Stay tuned!!!
Will do, Nick! Thanks. And P.S.--for your fans' sake, try not to get burned out. Moving is stressful enough, but adding that to a new marriage and too-heavy workload might be too much for even your favorite guarana beverages to make up for, in the long run. Obviously you're the best judge of your own limits, but it's in my own self-interest to see you well-rested and at your fiendish best!
People are jumping on Nick? Can we kick him too?
...
Nick, you don't need logic when you have the grotesque.
Enjoy your New Year's everyone. I'm taking a break from these boards for a good long while. The regular spanking sessions are wearing my arse thin. Thanks for the feedback and concerns folks. Keep em coming, I'll be back in a couple of weeks for another toushe smack and I'll do my best to answer everyone's questions then. Till then enjoy the holiday season.
The point, however, is not to beat you purely for the entertainment value. The real idea is to tell the staff and writers what we, as the readership, want in our Pathfinder adventures so that they can continue to improve.
In the end everybody here wants the same thing, a phenomenally good Pathfinder series that will sell like hot cakes. Painful as it is to have the readership jump down ones throat its ultimately because we want the best products possible. So currently logic issues are something that a number of us are concerned about and we want that angle of adventure design to be considered just a tad more when writing and editing the Adventure Paths.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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In defense of Nick and Adventure writers in general, pacing and timelines are the DM's job. Pre-written adventures by their very nature can't come up with the answers for all players in all groups. You know your player(s), what they like and don't like, and what they tend to expect.
When prepping a pre-written adventure you obviously have read the thing. Going over it a second or even third time (especially for AP sized modules) is necessary for the DM to understand the logic and pacing of that adventure.
As often as I run my own adventures, I run pre-written ones from Dungeon (and eventually Pathfinder). I have to tweak and bang each one into shape to fit my group, who are generally more than 4 players and more powerful characters than average. I take notes in the module, and write up my own outline/flowchart to follow at a glance. Flipping throught the adventure to find answers at the table is no good... that's what all the prep time is about.
-- "SQUAWK!"
Creative Director
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Hey Nic please please I beg you to post what you have on Paradise. I really really want to add it to Hook Mountain (perhaps make it part of the trip from Ilsurian to Turtleback Ferry)
Those looking for what Nick was doing with Paradise will probably want to wait and see what he did with "Eel's End" in Pathfinder #7. It was the largest and most significant section I had to cut from "Hook Mountain," and I really liked what was going on there. I managed to keep one NPC from the cut material in the adventure, but asked Nick to repurpose and reuse the cut stuff for "Edge of Anarchy." I'm actually working on developing that section right now, and it's got some neat stuff going on in there!
Hey Nic please please I beg you to post what you have on Paradise. I really really want to add it to Hook Mountain (perhaps make it part of the trip from Ilsurian to Turtleback Ferry)Those looking for what Nick was doing with Paradise will probably want to wait and see what he did with "Eel's End" in Pathfinder #7. It was the largest and most significant section I had to cut from "Hook Mountain," and I really liked what was going on there. I managed to keep one NPC from the cut material in the adventure, but asked Nick to repurpose and reuse the cut stuff for "Edge of Anarchy." I'm actually working on developing that section right now, and it's got some neat stuff going on in there!
I can't wait to see the development magic you put on it James! WOOT!
Nick
I think some people need to take a story for what it is and try not to explain more than what is given. The best thing I can think of is the Orc and the Pie, written back in a Dungeon mag, you have an orc and a pie (ok and the pie is on the table). There done. Play with it.
Players (even DM's really) do not need to know why the orc is there, he has a pie. They do not need to know who baked it, or what type of pie, or who built the table. You have all you need to play, so play.
I can see some points, why they are there, why did the they do it. To Mary, I think you are doing fine, but think like a DM, and not Mary talking to her players. They know what you tell them and what is around there PC that moment, and what they are capable of doing i.e. sneak, see, talk (some to much). That being said you should have players talking about the story, but should not be leading them with a string, they ARE the story and yes they could just say hell with this, lets get drunk at the pub and hit on the ladies, that good, that is why we are all here.
To all writers of stories before and after, everyone can read, some people just need alot more pictures than others.
To all DM, you are the Story Master (i.e. a little like god with the wrath and fire, but able to hear and play with the players).
To players, you are the story, and the story will not move without you, so kill the dragons and get the gold, do not worry when the gold was minted.
All and all, it was a good day.
Signed with head of small woodland creature
To players, you are the story, and the story will not move without you, so kill the dragons and get the gold, do not worry when the gold was minted.
For some players--I'm one, and the player in my RotRL campaign is another--this advice is just "Have less fun."
We have had so many really wonderful moments that came directly out of thinking about the gameworld and trying to make it make sense. I wouldn't give that up for anything: it's a major reason I play D&D. Otherwise video games would be better for me, as they deliver a lot more action with a lot less bookkeeping.
One bit I really liked: the PCs found a drowned man with a Sihedron mark washed up on the bank of the Skull River on their way up. From that mark plus the information they'd gathered in Ilsurian, they (correctly) deduced what had been going on with Paradise, and that they were probably hunting a lamia matriarch. It was really satisfying having things hang together well enough that they could reach conclusions and act on them, rather than having to be led.
"When was the gold minted?" is actually a pretty cool question--all through RotRL my player asked me that every time they found treasure, and if the gold was Thassilonian, the PCs hoarded it rather than spending it. Several times, it gave them a clear hint as to who they were dealing with: and it was also a nice bit of flavor, to show how obsessed they were with ancient Thassilon. If you told my player "Stop doing that" he'd just roll his eyes. He knows what's fun for him!
Mary