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I was very, very lucky as my mother is who turned me on to D&D as a kid, since I had a school adviser who told my mother that I needed a creative outlet to funnel my energy.
She had a lot of choices, but picked D&D because there were some older kids in the cul-de-sac who played and she new I loved the whole fantasy genre.
Although, ever so often, I'd run into the intolerant, fire-and-brimstone type, but I could often avoid saying anything to mean to them, being intolerant myself, or knocking them on their collective butts.
Not always, mind you, but more often than naught.
For me, socially, I use gaming as a social litmus test, although I do have non-gamer friends from time to time, most of my social circle are gamers who happen to also be mature people with a family and a life.
We like to hang out and play pretend because it's fun, not because it grants us demonic powers.
Sheesh.
The fact that all those who tick me off have not suffered under my powers should be proof that it's all a bunch of die-throwing fun that means nothing in reality said for improved basic math skills, social interaction, problem solving, and critical thinking.
*shrugs*
Worst encounter I have ever had was a very aggressive converter type, who bugged me for days and days when I was in college.
You see, I use to bring my gaming books and work on stuff in-between classes, at the time it was either World of Darkness or Shadowrun, which probably didn't help, but I was out of the way and didn't harm anyone.
Anyhow, this individual was a massive nag, who would come over and play at chit-chat until they could turn things to theology. This was made worse at this point in time of my spiritual journey, as I was a lot more shamanistic and druidic at the time in my exploration, although nowadays I'm more of a water-off-a-duck's-back taoist deist.
But, back to my story.
So this guy would just sit there, play at caring about my day, and then launch into a lecture. No matter what him and his posse would find me and try and have a sermon and it annoyed me to no end.
While I could understand their desire to be concerned for me, once it was evident that I did not want their concern they should have just left me alone.
Well, one day I'm sitting there working on a character when a King James Bible comes flying out of seemingly nowhere, skips across my Street Samurai Catalog, rips a couple of pages and bangs into my chest.
So, with barely surprised pissed-off-ness, who do I see, but Street Preacher A-hole and the Self-Rightettes.
Normally, sans the damage to my property, I just would have moved on, but he was such a uppity jackinape, that I had had enough.
He asks me if I ever read the most important book, obviously meaning the Bible, and I nodded and said, "Yeah, although the translation is a bit off. Good background though, lots of violence, magic, incest, and destruction. A bit light on the rules, though, I like a good mechanic to back-up the words."
Then I flicked it back at him and I swear, musta been divine intervention, as the Bible smacked him, spine first, right across the nose and gave him a bloody one.
While I know Jesus taught a very passive life, I do sense a bit of Old Testament justice in that moment.
*grins*
By the way, him and his group left me alone from that day forth, although some friends of mine told me that he told people that I "magiced" the book into his face and he had to ask God to protect him from my Devil Ways.
*smirks*
I've got no issue with religion, I think it is a good thing for people, family, and community, but bullies, regardless of stripe and garb, are nothing but a bunch of jerks who always need to be knocked down a peg.
People walk around with mediocre modern Stephen King and Dean Koontz novels in their mitts every day in every office around the country. Is anyone pointing at them and screaming, "Devil luvaaaah!" I guess all the grandparents who keep Ghost Whisperer on the air should be stoned in the square as well.
I've actually seen this happen with Steven King. A friend of my brothers told my sister in law this (she loves Steven King). Telling her that Steven King was evil for the things he wrote. Good thing he didn't know about H.P. Lovecraft, he'd poop himself.
Edit: Clarification.
While I could understand their desire to be concerned for me, once it was evident that I did not want their concern they should have just left me alone.
Unfortunately, a number of religious fundamentalists deem failing to convert you from your evil ways is a sin of omission. Allowing evil (evil being you, abortion clinics, or dryer lint, depending on with whom you speak) to exist in the world is something their beliefs simply won’t tolerate.
(evil being you, abortion clinics, or dryer lint, depending on with whom you speak)
Damnit! I should've known better then to drink while reading this thread. You owe me a new keyboard.
You owe me a new keyboard.
Would you accept stamps instead?
My own experiences with the whole "D&D corrupts" propaganda is pretty tame compared to some of the accounts that have been given.
When I was a kid (I was born in 1976), my Dad had a huge collection of sci-fi and fantasy pulp novels that he'd read during college. I was fascinated with these strange books authored by Edgar Rice Boroughs, Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, etc. and the fantastical covers and women painted by artists like Frank Frazetta. By 5th grade, I was reading Robert E. Howard's original Conan stories during lunch and recess at Saint Agnes Catholic School which I had just started attending in West Chester, PA.
I recall that a couple of the nuns were concerned about what I was reading, but they were good enough to try talking with me rather than jumping to conclusions. Considering that I never received any guff or criticism from them after that (I was actually something of a teachers' pet) I guess either they must have rolled well on their Sense Motive checks or I must have rolled well on my Diplomacy check — or perhaps a little of both.
A couple years later, my Aunt Mary bought me "The Legend of Huma". By that point, I'd already read The Lord of the Rings and was excited to learn that there was a whole series of Dragonlance books being actively published and that musty old pulp fiction wasn't all there was to fantasy literature. I'd not even really heard about D&D by that point but I was a pretty avid writer and in 7th grade started work on a world in which to set my own stories.
Somewhere around that same time-period, my paternal grandmother, wheel-chair bound by MS for at least a couple decades already, spoke to me about some concerns that she had. As You can guess, these concerns were about D&D and the rumors/propaganda she'd heard about how D&D was responsible for leading to drug-use and devil-worship (i.e. that it wasn't obviously evil on the surface but rather subversive and led one down a slippery slope). I was in either Cub or Boy Scouts at the time and when my dear Grandmom asked me to promise that I'd never play D&D I gave her my word.
Now the reason why I mention the fact that she was wheel-chair bound is this: other than relatives and a few neighbors who would stop by from time-to-time, it wasn't possible for her to travel about under her own power. She was literally completely dependent upon my Grandfather or others who were visiting for anything requiring mobility or a strength score above 1. In those days before the Internet then, the only sources of information she had on such matters were TV, newspapers, magazines and word-of-mouth from the few people who might visit. In the 80s, most of those cast D&D in a very bad light.
It wasn't until 1991, my sophomore year in high school, that I had my first contact with D&D. A kid sitting at an adjacent table in the school cafeteria (Mike S.) was reading a Forgotten Realms book and I recognized that it was published by the same company as my Dragonlance books. Still, I was quite shy so it would be a couple months before we actually spoke to one another. When we did, it was because a friend of a friend sat at my table at lunch (we were all named Michael) and we began talking about fantasy.
When D&D came up and the newest Mike (Mike P.) suggested he could DM for us, I apologized and explained that I'd promised my Grandmother that I wouldn't. Rather than laughing or being rude about it, Mike P. explained that it was like a computer roleplaying game but without the computer or like a group of friends telling their own Dragonlance story. He even mentioned that the Dragonlance Chronicles books were authored in part as a result of roleplaying. Really, he said, D&D just gave rules to objectively describing the characters in the story and how to arbitrate how they interacted (in not so many words).
Mike P. let me have a character sheet and borrow his Player's Handbook to inspect what it was all about. Being a young author, I was immediately intrigued by his claims that D&D provided a means to describe and compare characters in an objective way. I'd already been trying to make up a way to rate the heroes and villains in my stories and this would save me so much time. But still, there was that promise I'd made so I had to look at the rules objectively to ensure there was nothing bad about them.
In the end I came to the realization that the demons and devils (sorry, tanari and baatezu) were in the game because they were for the good guys we were playing to beat up on. I figured out that if someone was enough of a screw-up they'd get themselves into trouble no matter what they did though that didn't make the things they liked evil by association. (If that was the case, then the actions of a few religious zealots would make the Church evil by association.) In talking with others older than me, it was also clear that in every generation, certain factions try to pin all the ills of society on a scapegoat as if it can be sacrificed for the sins of all the world (comic books, rock music, video games, etc.) Did I mention that D&D was all about being GOOD GUYS beating up on BAD GUYS?
It was quite a lot to work thru philosophically for a 15 year old I guess, but I realized that the game I'd promised my Grandmom I'd never play didn't actually exist. ...or at least that D&D wasn't that game.
Because the 2nd Ed renaming of devils and demons was really lame.What was this famous renaming? i've heard that WotC had to rename those guys so that the religeos fanatics didn't get mad. But what did they rename it to?
It was TSR that changed the names. One of the first things WOTC did when they acquired the rights was tell Monte Cook to write something overflowing with Demons and Devils. thus we got A Paladin in Hell. Essentially bring Demons and Devils back into the game was one of their first priorities.
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This is all very odd.
The most trouble I get is that it's seen as being quite sad/geeky - but then i've always been quite cool and sociable (how much of an arrogant git do i feel typing that?!) so people tend to be surprised that I would do something like dnd, rather than it tarnishing me. When people quibble it I tend to say; "I'll try anything once, and that includes dnd - turned out that it was fun."
Being British makes it easy. Any teacher accusing kids of satanism who'd be laughed out of class - and next day when he arrived in class he'd have twenty students reading the PHB and a pentagram on the whiteboard.
Meanwhile Tolkein, Rowling and C.S.Lewis are national cultural icons, Robin Hood and King Arthur are essential parts of our cultural heritage, everybody loves Stonehenge, and claiming that demons really exist gets you a visit from a social worker to check that you're not molesting your kids. Plus the private school graduates who run the government and the judiciary all did latin and studied greek myths at school.
My gaming group meet in a public place, down the pub (it's full of nooks and crannies, we take one cranny over), and never get any trouble from the other patrons, no matter how drunk.
In fact we play in a cave at the back of one of the oldest pubs in the country; the pub is at the bottom of a limestone spur atop which sits a castle (the pub used to winch beer up through the caves to the castle) - this sometimes makes other gamers jealous. :b
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"Hey mon Mrs. Robinson was nice enough to proofread my story for my character. She's a really nice teacher"Ha! I think mom might have more to worry about in “Mrs. Robinson” than in D&D.
Are you trying to seduce me, Mrs. Robinson?
p.s. Don't be a dumb ass and break out the BoVD or the BoED.Oiy. That thing seeing print was my worst nightmare as a D&D apologist.
OK, I can see BoVD being a big problem, but what's "satanic" about the Book of Exalted Deeds?
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This is all very odd.
The most trouble I get is that it's seen as being quite sad/geeky - but then i've always been quite cool and sociable (how much of an arrogant git do i feel typing that?!) so people tend to be surprised that I would do something like dnd, rather than it tarnishing me. When people quibble it I tend to say; "I'll try anything once, and that includes dnd - turned out that it was fun."
Being British makes it easy. Any teacher accusing kids of satanism who'd be laughed out of class - and next day when he arrived in class he'd have twenty students reading the PHB and a pentagram on the whiteboard.
Meanwhile Tolkein, Rowling and C.S.Lewis are national cultural icons, Robin Hood and King Arthur are essential parts of our cultural heritage, everybody loves Stonehenge, and claiming that demons really exist gets you a visit from a social worker to check that you're not molesting your kids. Plus the private school graduates who run the government and the judiciary all did latin and studied greek myths at school.My gaming group meet in a public place, down the pub (it's full of nooks and crannies, we take one cranny over), and never get any trouble from the other patrons, no matter how drunk.
In fact we play in a cave at the back of one of the oldest pubs in the country; the pub is at the bottom of a limestone spur atop which sits a castle (the pub used to winch beer up through the caves to the castle) - this sometimes makes other gamers jealous. :b
The "D&D = Satanism" angle is pretty much an American phenomenon so far as I can tell, and a facet of the much higher importance religion has in everyday life in the US than in the rest of the western world. It was never a problem for me in the UK. The first time I heard about it was at my interview for university. "Roleplaying games" was in my application form as a hobby, and the interviewer asked me if there was any connection with Satanism. I looked confused, said "No" and that was that. I got in, so it obviously wasn't a problem. The first and last time the issue has ever been raised to me personally.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It was TSR that changed the names. One of the first things WOTC did when they acquired the rights was tell Monte Cook to write something overflowing with Demons and Devils. thus we got A Paladin in Hell. Essentially bring Demons and Devils back into the game was one of their first priorities.Because the 2nd Ed renaming of devils and demons was really lame.What was this famous renaming? i've heard that WotC had to rename those guys so that the religeos fanatics didn't get mad. But what did they rename it to?
I remember reading the old ads in Dragon "What the Hell is a Ba'atzu?" Made me laugh *sigh* Back when Greyhawk was still loved by WotC.
The entire Chronicles of Narnia series is one big huge Christian allegory (as well as a pretty dang good fantasy story to boot.) Tolkien isn't so blatant with the allegory...You can also bring up C.S. Lewis, LotR, and other popular media.
He wasn't in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, but the first couple parts of the Silmarillion are pretty obviously heavily influenced by the Bible. I never got a chance to take it (Comp Sci major), but the college I went to offered an upper-level literature class that examined the Biblical themes in the Chronicles and the Simarillion.
Actually, I went back and re-read the Chronicles of Narnia after hearing about the class. There were a lot of references that I missed when I was 8 or so.
When I was 13 there was a 60 Minutes report on D&D with an interview with Gary Gygax that my parents made me watch. Despite the interviewers best attempts to portray D&D and Mr. Gygax as evil satanists he never shook Mr Gygax's composure. By the end of the interview my parents told me to go ahead with my gaming and they rarely watched 60 Minutes after that.
That would have been 1983 and I have fortunately never encountered the prejudice again.
Yeah...I'm sure D'n'D is evil...even though one major aspect of D'n'D, the alingment system, focus's on the idea of Good vrs Evil, which compels alot of players to question both in and out of the game, what exactly constitutes good and evil?
When I first started high school (which is usally at the age of 11 here in Scotland), I was one of those creepy kids. All I did was stand by myself in one of the school corridors during break, -choosing- never to play with the other kids. Thats right, choose, I just didn't like people. Some did want to hang with me, I would refuse though.
When I was about 15 though, I started getting into fantasy games, like Warhammer, D'n'D, Magic the gathering.
Now, I'm 19, unlike what I was like at 11, I have friends (good friends at that, the kind I see myself being friends with for life), a girlfriend whom is madly in love with me (and vice versa), I actually have a reason to go out my room, and I no longer spend my time playing mindless action games which usally involve all the enemies in the game to have a bloody and painful end.
Now...how is moving from a secluded lifestyle of non-stop bloody computer games to actually having good friends evil? Is this is what some folk deem devil worship, then they should consider me a very bad man.
On a much lighter note, when I started playing in '79(?) there was a big brouhaha because some idjits had decided to play "DnD in 3D" in their town's storm drains. This ended badly. I had to spend 20 minutes convincing my mom that the game was harmless and running about sewers was optional.
Kind of funny now. Except the kids who got hurt.
The Steam Tunnel Incidents...
Most of the stories are a bit of urban myth based on a few real events. The only one I am familiar with is the one involving James Dallas Egbert III. In 1979, he was a 16 year old child prodigy who disappeared, and after a failed suicice attempt in the steam tunnels under Michigan State University, hid at various friends houses and eventually ended up in Louisiana. A PI named William Dear hired to find him suggested to the news that he got lost playing a live action version of D&D.
Egbert eventually contacted Dear, who was asked not to reveal what actually happened by Egbert. Dear did eventually recount the true story in 1984, four years after Egbert successfully committed suicide.
The kid suffered from depression and drug addiction. He also never played D&D. But D&D was in the news a lot at the time, it was a easy scapegoat. The whole story served as a basis for Mazes and Monsters.
There are a couple of other incidents, but none that I know a lot details about.
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I guess every experience is different. I grew up in the american south (Florida), and I've never experienced a single example of the whole devil-worship thing. I started playing with my friends at a campground that my grandparents took me to every summer. My grandparents (both sets) and one of my aunts were responsible for my entire original collection of books. I very clearly remember opening the AD&D DMG with the giant devil on the cover, and Deities and Demigods under the Christmas tree. Over the course of my childhood, I branched out into many other games (settled on MERP for a LONG time). In High School, my teachers had no problem with some of the more advanced students playing D&D in the library during review sessions that we didn't need. If any figure of authority in my childhood ever had a problem with my favorite hobby, they never expressed it to me.
As an adult, I've converted many folks to RPGs, and the only stereotype I can remember running into is the whole "D & D is for geeks" thing. Maybe being on the football and weightlifting team insulated me from that stuff as a kid, or maybe it just wasn't there. Hard to say.
I guess every experience is different. I grew up in the american south (Florida), and I've never experienced a single example of the whole devil-worship thing. I started playing with my friends at a campground that my grandparents took me to every summer. My grandparents (both sets) and one of my aunts were responsible for my entire original collection of books. I very clearly remember opening the AD&D DMG with the giant devil on the cover, and Deities and Demigods under the Christmas tree. Over the course of my childhood, I branched out into many other games (settled on MERP for a LONG time). In High School, my teachers had no problem with some of the more advanced students playing D&D in the library during review sessions that we didn't need. If any figure of authority in my childhood ever had a problem with my favorite hobby, they never expressed it to me.
As an adult, I've converted many folks to RPGs, and the only stereotype I can remember running into is the whole "D & D is for geeks" thing. Maybe being on the football and weightlifting team insulated me from that stuff as a kid, or maybe it just wasn't there. Hard to say.
What part of Florida, Luke. It sounds like you were in tolerant town. I'm a transplant (moved down here to the Tampa area in '92), and it seems the farther you go from the big cities, the more 'conservative' the religious folk. My friend told me horror stories about the Mt. Dora area.
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Myself, I grew up in suburban Maryland. (I'm 32 now) My introduction to D&D came from my neighbor and best friend at the age of 10. At first, my folks, who are devout Roman Catholics, only knew what they had heard in the media. They asked me if the game was satanic and I had no clue what that was. Mom let us play at the kitchen table one day while she was making dinner, and by the time dinner was served, any of her worries disappeared.
Interestingly enough, soon after, I discovered Heavy Metal and learned all about pseudo-satanism. I had more problems with my parents concerning my choice in music than I ever did with D&D. That pretty much ended when, at the age of 12, I asked my dad if he had a copy of Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner because Iron Maiden wrote a song about it and I wanted to read the original.
Once I joined the Boy Scouts, I met several friends who played and D&D grew from a hobby to a lifestyle. During the summer, our gang would meet almost every day to play. The only person whose parents objected to the game was ironically the eldest of our group. Church of Christ, or one of the other non-denominational Christian faiths that live by the comics of Jack Chick. Unsurprisingly, he was the least socially-adjusted of the group.
Flash forward to modern times, and I was involved with the RPGA and Living Greyhawk for the past few years. I ran RPGA events at some of the local shops in the Tampa Bay area. Some of the regulars were surprisingly young, only a couple years older than I was when I got started. Their parents tend to be fairly young, well-educated, and see D&D as a great hobby/pastime for the kids. It encourages creative thinking, problem solving, working together as a group, and most importantly, turning off the tv and leaving the house.
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Heathansson is right. Gainesville is where I grew up and it is a very laid back, generally liberal town. My best friend and most frequent player came from a very religious family, and both their sons played all the time without ever getting any static. I think I was just lucky to have very tolerant people around me growing up who were thrilled that we were just playing at burning buildings down and killing things, and not actually doing it.
And you're definitely right about the state getting more conservative the farther you get from the cities. I roomed my first year at UF (by random selection) with a guy from the panhandle who was convinced I was a satan worshiper (for all kinds of ignorant reasons). I've never worshiped anyone but my wife.
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I had the typical, conservative, religously tyrannical mother. I was introduced to the game when I was 8 and when I first started my mother was okay with me playing. Then she divorced my father, remarried a few years later and my stepfather helped her find God. Only when she found Him she just kept on running into the extremes of religious thought.
Things went downhill. I had to start hiding my interests from her. No fantasy, no rpgs, nothing that might have a hint of the Devil in it. Dragons, elves, and orcs were demonic. Magic was evil, even fake fantasy magic. The idea being that even if the magic in these books was fake, even if D&D didn't teach you how to perform Satanic rites, you would seek these things out because this genre inspired further exploration in those realms. Under her way of thinking you would eventually stumble across something that was real and powerful.
Actually this ban extended beyond the fantasy genre. My mother also discouraged any interest in Medieval history, claiming that the period was one of darkness and ignorance. Of course, she believed that the Middle Ages were ruled by wizards and witches and that the Devil held a tight hold on the world through the Catholic church. Only through the Reformation was the world freed from slavery. My mother is insane, why do ask?
Eventually she began regular sweeps of my room when I wasn't at home. Anything she found that ran contrary to her beliefs she burned. At one point she had a church bible study group in our house. The pastor of the church brought the study group into my room and they searched for "demonic" goods together. I had about ten people in my bedroom looking for signs of the Devil so they could burn them.
The burden of this strife actually did untold damage to the relationship with my mother. Well, that and the fact I was gay. The pastor who led the crusade into my bedroom was actually the first person to "out" me. He told the church one Sunday. Simply let them know I was gay. I had told his daughter, who was a close friend of mine at the time, and she had told him.
I don't really speak to my mother anymore. I guess this sort of illustrates how badly misconceptions and ignorance can damage the relationships in our lives.
Yup, a Brit here and the only stigma it has is being geeky. Because anything intellectual is snobby and nerdy. We must all worship the great god of sport.
Actually this ban extended beyond the fantasy genre. My mother also discouraged any interest in Medieval history, claiming that the period was one of darkness and ignorance. Of course, she believed that the Middle Ages were ruled by wizards and witches and that the Devil held a tight hold on the world through the Catholic church. Only through the Reformation was the world freed from slavery. My mother is insane, why do ask?
Now that's something I just don't get- the weird disconnect that Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. It appears to be a uniquely American "world view",since I've never heard it anywhere else and the Roman Catholic Church is largest branch of Christianity worldwide. Reeks of an inferiority complex to me, but I could be wrong.
As to the rest of the stuff, you have my sympathies dude- I can't imagine the kind of stress that all could induce- great to see that you came through it all in one piece.
Actually this ban extended beyond the fantasy genre. My mother also discouraged any interest in Medieval history, claiming that the period was one of darkness and ignorance. Of course, she believed that the Middle Ages were ruled by wizards and witches and that the Devil held a tight hold on the world through the Catholic church. Only through the Reformation was the world freed from slavery. My mother is insane, why do ask?
Now that's something I just don't get- the weird disconnect that Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. It appears to be a uniquely American "world view",since I've never heard it anywhere else and the Roman Catholic Church is largest branch of Christianity worldwide. Reeks of an inferiority complex to me, but I could be wrong.
As to the rest of the stuff, you have my sympathies dude- I can't imagine the kind of stress that all could induce- great to see that you came through it all in one piece.
I think it goes back to the puritians believing that Satan worked through the Catholic church...I don't know why. Remember this was the time when if you didn't have 5 children die, house burned down and get captured by the "native savages" God had no intrest in you. Remember God decided in the beginning of time if you were choosen and he would choose to save you and he showed this via hardship. You know predestination and all that jazz.
I had all this explained to me at some point when I told a college Professor that I would have found a more cheery religion or at least one that made me think God didn't hate me, if my life sucked that bad.
I think we were reading Sinners in the Hands of a Angry God by Edwards at the time. Which tells how we can never be one with God. We are nothing more than spiders, are sins are pits with spikes and fire that no matter how good we are we will never see the pits because we are borned damned an we shall fall to damnation.
Early America is never cheery but tends to have a flare for the damatic
You know come to think of it Southern Baptist and Pentecostal church (my family is one or the other) are both still dramatic. Music good in the SB at least.
Oh we can't forget Calinism too
Fizz
Now that's something I just don't get- the weird disconnect that Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. It appears to be a uniquely American "world view",since I've never heard it anywhere else and the Roman Catholic Church is largest branch of Christianity worldwide. Reeks of an inferiority complex to me, but I could be wrong.
I don't know about completely unique, but this view of Catholicism is deeply rooted in American history. Many of our original 13 colonies were founded as religious havens for various branches of Protestants, especially the more severe and anti-catholic ones (Puritans in Massachusetts, for example). Sure there were pockets of Catholicism here and there (Maryland), but the overwhelming majority of early colonists practiced pretty severe Protestantism in one form or another, Protestantism that was often violently opposed to the Catholic church. Throughout our history, any of the prejudices and biases that you often saw that applied to nonwhite races also applied to Catholics as well. Just one example was the KKK; in addition to attacking blacks, they also used their terror tactics against Catholics. Irish immigrants were treated in much the same way. The election of John F. Kennedy was deemed a minor miracle, in that he was the first Catholic president of the U.S.
While less of an influence today, you still see the threads of this anti-Catholicism weaving in and out of our political, religious and popular culture today. Just look at the movies or TV; anytime in the plot there's something awful connected to a Christian church, you can bet that its not a Baptist or a Presbyterian minister or church involved. Not that the Catholic church in America has helped itself at all with their handling of the abhorrent priest sex abuse cases, either.
So while to much of the world the Catholic church is "The Christian Church", here in America it is a minority among the Christian population as a whole. Adherents.com is a good place to do research on the state of religion in the U.S.
Hey guys, this is Bill from The Escapist; I came here when I noticed the many hits my site has been getting from this thread. (Thanks, by the way!)
cool! I read your site before this thread popped up, thanks to some advice I got on www.roleplayingtips.com. I thought it was real funny, like when you proved that D&D spells weren't real. i actually think I might have been the first (maybe even only)person to mention you site here. I thought the info on the fact/fiction stuff on the urban legends was very handy.
P.S. Sooo... Cthullu really does exist. I suspected as much.|
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Now that's something I just don't get- the weird disconnect that Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. It appears to be a uniquely American "world view",since I've never heard it anywhere else and the Roman Catholic Church is largest branch of Christianity worldwide.
Much older than that, actually, and almost certainly of British origin as it applies in the US. Take a look at nearly any history of England after Henry VIII and before the middle of the 19th century. "Pope = Antichrist" is a particularly common expression of this view in England (and much of the rest of what is now the UK, for that matter) throughout this period.
Similar attitudes arose on the continent during the 30-Years War, but I think it's less likely that they migrated to the Americas from there.
FWIW, the Catholic attitude toward Protestants during much of that period was essentially indistinguishable. It was only after the end of the Napoleonic Wars that attitudes changed significantly among common people.
As to why the attitude persists more in the US than in Europe, I think there are two major issues:
1) Religious freedom was established early in the US. In Europe, most states either still have state religions or dropped them fairly recently. This difference facilitated the proliferation of sects in the US in a way that never really happened in Europe. Some of those sects have pretty extreme views.
2) Perhaps in part as a result of #1 above, religion is much stronger in the US than in most of Europe. Far fewer (as a percentage) Europeans actually care enough about religion to have strongly held religious beliefs*. If you don't have strong beliefs, you're unlikely to express the same.
* Leaving aside nominally secular beliefs that show all the attributes of being religions.
Edwards was so distraught over the fact that he believe he would never be close to God, and that other people would not attempt to let God choose them that he would lock himself in his bedroom and cry for days on end. Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God is really his only work that's fire and brimstone. Most of his other works are nature or family centered.
Fizz
Fizzban has some good comments above, I had forgotten about "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" and Calvinist predestination. As to Satan working through the Catholic church, that dates from the days of the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation and the wars that raged in Europe over the issue. To either side, their enemy would be "tools of Satan". Google "pope antichrist" and you'll get the general idea of how radical Protestantism feels about Catholicism. Doug is right on the money tracing it back to Henry VIII. The Great Awakenings also have contributed.
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, 'Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!'
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?"
He said, 'Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
He said, "Christian.'
I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
He said, 'Baptist!"
I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?'
He said, "Baptist Church of God!"
I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
He said, 'Reformed Baptist Church of God!"
I said, 'Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!'
I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
1) Religious freedom was established early in the US. In Europe, most states either still have state religions or dropped them fairly recently. This difference facilitated the proliferation of sects in the US in a way that never really happened in Europe. Some of those sects have pretty extreme views.2) Perhaps in part as a result of #1 above, religion is much stronger in the US than in most of Europe. Far fewer (as a percentage) Europeans actually care enough about religion to have strongly held religious beliefs*. If you don't have strong beliefs, you're unlikely to express the same.
* Leaving aside nominally secular beliefs that show all the attributes of being religions.
1. I always hate when people say America keeps church and state sparated. We don't we can't the world doesn't work that way. We don't have a State religion that's it. So yeah we don't really have a "state religion" but come on.
2. I think your right on this America is not far away from the middle east on religion.
I don't know about completely unique, but this view of Catholicism is deeply rooted in American history. Many of our original 13 colonies were founded as religious havens for various branches of Protestants, especially the more severe and anti-catholic ones (Puritans in Massachusetts, for example). Sure there were pockets of Catholicism here and there (Maryland), but the overwhelming majority of early colonists practiced pretty severe Protestantism in one form or another, Protestantism that was often violently opposed to the Catholic church. Throughout our history, any of the prejudices and biases that you often saw that applied to nonwhite races also applied to Catholics as well. Just one example was the KKK; in addition to attacking blacks, they also used their terror tactics against Catholics. Irish immigrants were treated in much the same way. The election of John F. Kennedy was deemed a minor miracle, in that he was the first Catholic president of the U.S.
Any group that leaves England for being too uptight, you know they've going to have issues :)
While less of an influence today, you still see the threads of this anti-Catholicism weaving in and out of our political, religious and popular culture today. Just look at the movies or TV; anytime in the plot there's something awful connected to a Christian church, you can bet that its not a Baptist or a Presbyterian minister or church involved. Not that the Catholic church in America has helped itself at all with their handling of the abhorrent priest sex abuse cases, either.
So while to much of the world the Catholic church is "The Christian Church", here in America it is a minority among the Christian population as a whole. Adherents.com is a...
Oh, I agree that the RCC hasn't done itself any favors with it's handling of its scandals- back home the Church has been hammered by these scandals is on the back foot, which has done no harm for the situation in the North of Ireland (amazing what prosperity can do to massage all that sectarian stuff away).
I've been struck by the rampant whoring of Jesus-as-merchandise by the various Churches here. It's an industry that puts the Medieval Churches hawking of relics and talismans to shame (which is more then a little ironic).Talk about becoming the thing you hate.
Sorry about the threadjack- normal service will return asap ;)
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1. I always hate when people say America keeps church and state sparated. We don't we can't the world doesn't work that way. We don't have a State religion that's it. So yeah we don't really have a "state religion" but come on.
To paraphrase Tom Wolfe, religious intolerance is always descending on the US, but it keeps landing on Europe.
2. I think your right on this America is not far away from the middle east on religion.
I never said that and I disagree with it categorically.
Um... No offense, but I want to get on this threadjack before Gary does. If you want to carry on the discussion, I'd suggest continuing it on the Civil Religious Discussion. It's wicked interesting, but it's a bit touchy. Just a friendly suggestion. No offense meant.
Good idea, we should probably do that.
Um... No offense, but I want to get on this threadjack before Gary does. If you want to carry on the discussion, I'd suggest continuing it on the Civil Religious Discussion. It's wicked interesting, but it's a bit touchy. Just a friendly suggestion. No offense meant.
Yeah I did help in the thread jacking of my own thread, but I hope I didn't sound snippy. A friend was at the door waiting on me so I didn't get to go more in depth with my middle east statement. But yeah back to the thread...So D&D is witchcraft.
Fizz
1. I always hate when people say America keeps church and state sparated. We don't we can't the world doesn't work that way. We don't have a State religion that's it. So yeah we don't really have a "state religion" but come on.To paraphrase Tom Wolfe, religious intolerance is always descending on the US, but it keeps landing on Europe.
2. I think your right on this America is not far away from the middle east on religion.I never said that and I disagree with it categorically.
Sorry real life cut my post short. Last thing said. I was trying to agree with you on number 2. Yes America is more religious than other western cultures. I think we (Americans) tend to say all the hardcore religious people are in the middle east not us, when we are the most staunch religious country of the westerners sorry for the mix up stupid real life. I just thought it was ironic.
ok last of my jacking.
Fizz
What is thread jacking?
What is thread jacking?
So, how about those Red Sox?
One of my best friend's mother is an extremely conservative close-minded Baptist woman and among the many things she condemns (a list that includes everything from abortion to Pokemon) is D&D.
My friend has told me that she got the "never play D&D" speech when she was a bit younger, and now it is my goal in life to somehow get her mother to give me the speech so I can record it and paste on these messageboards so you all can laugh at how ridiculous I'm sure it's going to be.
One of my best friend's mother is an extremely conservative close-minded Baptist woman and among the many things she condemns (a list that includes everything from abortion to Pokemon) is D&D.
My friend has told me that she got the "never play D&D" speech when she was a bit younger, and now it is my goal in life to somehow get her mother to give me the speech so I can record it and paste on these messageboards so you all can laugh at how ridiculous I'm sure it's going to be.
How is Pokemon evil??? I guess it might teach kids to stuff animals into little balls and throw them at one another...but that seems more like PETA's area. hmmm that's something to think about a Pikachu cult...Pi Pika Pi (worship me!!!)
Mmmm...Cuban cigars.What is thread jacking?Just keep your mouth shut and fly this thread to Cuba!
*Sighs* Never mind.
How is Pokemon evil??? I guess it might teach kids to stuff animals into little balls and throw them at one another...but that seems more like PETA's area. hmmm that's something to think about a Pikachu cult...Pi Pika Pi (worship me!!!)One of my best friend's mother is an extremely conservative close-minded Baptist woman and among the many things she condemns (a list that includes everything from abortion to Pokemon) is D&D.
My friend has told me that she got the "never play D&D" speech when she was a bit younger, and now it is my goal in life to somehow get her mother to give me the speech so I can record it and paste on these messageboards so you all can laugh at how ridiculous I'm sure it's going to be.
Her mom thinks "Pokemon" translates to "Pocket Demons" not "Pocket Monsters". And y'know, if it has the word "Demon" in it, it must be evil.
*Sheesh*
The funny story is how I came to find all this out. You see, me and my friends were waiting at school to get picked up, and my friend's mom (the crazy one we're talking about) pulls up. We all piled in the van as a joke, and I picked up her little brother's GameBoy Color and I was like "Lol, does it have Pokemon in it?" And her mom just turned to me and shouted "NO!"
And I was like "Huh?" And my friend then yanked me out of the car and whispered to me "She doesn't like Pokemon." It wasn't until the next day at school that I got the full "Pocket Demon" explanation from my friend.
Naah....Pokemon actual is evil. ;)
Hmmm, I was against this game because i thought it WASN'T evil... seems i'm going to have to re-think my stance on it. Now if you'll excuse me all, i've a ouija board and a tarot deck to go back to...