Okay, I wanted to start a thread getting people's impressions of the content of the new online Dragon & Dungeon so far. Try to keep it to the content, not about 4E or the mags' online format (I think most of us agree that the mags ought to be in print form, so no reason to belabor this point).
My personal impressions is the content seemed a little light. Dungeon only had two adventures (which seemed good enough to me), but the extra articles didn't have much I could use. I mean seriously, do they really expect me to start planning my 4E campaign right now with the little info that is out there?
As far as Dragon, most of it seemed either to be about 4E or upcoming products, both of which I'm certainly interested but seemed to dominate the mags too much. I did like the other stuff though - a fair mix of fluff and crunch. But the meaty articles seemed fewer and further between.
Overall, I thought the content was fine but it could have had more of the good stuff.
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The Demonomicon article and the Hell's Heart adventure were the only things worth anything in the mags. Of course, this has everything to do with the talented authors, and nothing to do with the new DI staff. Everything else was garbage. The online format made it really difficult to browse the Hell's Heart adventure. The new mags are sorry.
It was light on content and took all month to finish. Now it is NOv. !st and we finally get a whole issue , light on contnet and all. I think they lost an issue. Shouldn't we get a new issue by the beggining of November? I'm glad I didn't pay a subscription for that, because I would feel that WotC ripped me off.
I liked the interview with the Beholder. The adventures were cool and so was the article on the Dukes of Hell and Grazzit in Dragon E-zine.
3 things I enjoyed in 2 magazines.
But nothing I am going to use because I don't have an Eberron campaign and I'm not running stuff with Grazz't.
Strike 1 for WotC.
Have they compiled the articles into a finished magazine format? If so, I can't seem to find it anywhere on the site.
Also, the Dungeon adventures... I don't know about you, but if I were to print it out I'd do it on both sides of the paper (or insert the prints into plastic sleeves) so they would read like a proper magazine, but that's really not possible when the border art and page numbers are on the SAME SIDE on every page!
I wasn't very impressed with things so far, though I did find the beholder animation to be funny and I liked both Hell's Heart and the Demonomicon. The latter two are more of a leftover from the print issues, of course, and who knows if the Demonomicon will continue with 4E.
Content Quality: decent; from bad (I'm Stephen) to very good (Demonomicon)
Content Quantity: poor. this would have filled half or a third of the space of the old mags
Art: great, some very nice pieces, and I like the ability to save them
Design & Presentation: lousy, ugly
Portability/usability: terrible, especially once the PDF format changes or becomes obsolete, and a lot of the content was web-only
Fluff: nice, but I miss the regular comics (Downer, Mt. Zogon, et al.)
Overall: 6.0/10
I'd pay about $2 per month for something like this.
I have to be fair and acknowledge that the page count for the Dungeon material was significant, probably higher than a print issue, and without any advertisements that SHOULD (in theory) equate to more content... except that the delve format more than eats up any gains.
- Ashavan
Have they compiled the articles into a finished magazine format? If so, I can't seem to find it anywhere on the site.
Also, the Dungeon adventures... I don't know about you, but if I were to print it out I'd do it on both sides of the paper (or insert the prints into plastic sleeves) so they would read like a proper magazine, but that's really not possible when the border art and page numbers are on the SAME SIDE on every page!
As I understand it, from (shudder) reading the WotC message boards, they have gone bi-monthly - with "compilations" of the individual article PDFs being done at the end of the bi-monthly period: in other words, if you want one nice big PDF with all of Dungeon 151 in it you'll have to wait until December.
As for the promises of getting the 151 issue online by the last day of October, they just put up the 4th part of "Iggwilv’s Legacy" on Nov 2nd.
As people are complaining that the image quality of the "Iggwilv’s Legacy" progressively gets worse with each additional article, the WotC people on the message boards said it was because they wanted to keep dial-up downloading easy by reducing resolution each time a new chapter was added and also because the screens they use at WotC are not capable of showing the difference between hi-res and low-res images - so they didn't notice any change in quality with reduced resolution. They want on to say they're only now considering the option of putting up multiple hi-res/lo-res formats & this is the kind of feed-back they need. Not terribly encouraging. If they'd taken a look at Paizo they'd know issues like image quality, maps with a labeled & unlabeled versions, etc. are a key interest among subscribers. One person claimed we couldn't expect multiple file versions available for download because the bandwidth costs to WotC would be too high. Does that sound promising for a "Digital Initiative" that is supposed to allow people to play online?
The issue of placing the page numbers & border art to facilitate double sided printing has been brought up on the WotC boards too and again WotC's online magazine people seem not to have considered issues like these. All I can say is that a year's preparation for switching to online versions has some serious gaps.
Content was still too far on the mature side for me to consider purchasing the DI. I had theorized WotC reasserted control in order to swing the material back to being more youth friendly. This does not appear to be the case with the new issues.
[...]I liked both Hell's Heart and the Demonomicon. The latter two are more of a leftover from the print issues, of course, and who knows if the Demonomicon will continue with 4E.
QFT, absolutely.
My impression so far:
The Content
My first disappointment. Yes, the two articles mentioned above were good, as was RJS' "Infernal Aristocracy". "Lost Caverns..." might even appeal to fans of the classic dungeon crawl (not to me, though). But the rest? Come on. Half-hearted, not worth reading.
Quantity
For an online format, I sure expect updates to occur more frequently. This is the reason we left the print medium. Why not make use of the online format?
Art
This is the one feature I wholeheartedly applaud. New art, some really great (Graz'zt!), and the ability to download each file as a hi-res version.
Design & Presentation
Ugh. While Dungeon articles at least *have* got something resembling a layout, poor Dragon is just suffering. Incredible. Even if they don't want to go to great lengths and design a completely new layout, an amateur could cobble together something far better than this within a matter of minutes.
Usefulness
Don't know. The advantage of being able to c/p stats and text is outweighed by the high printing costs, for me. Paizo is also doing this better with PF.
Overall score
3.5/10.
The fact that about 3 of these rating points stem from content and art, both of which could have easily been provided in a print medium, should give WotC some food for thought...
As I understand it, from (shudder) reading the WotC message boards, they have gone bi-monthly - with "compilations" of the individual article PDFs being done at the end of the bi-monthly period: in other words, if you want one nice big PDF with all of Dungeon 151 in it you'll have to wait until December.Have they compiled the articles into a finished magazine format? If so, I can't seem to find it anywhere on the site.
Also, the Dungeon adventures... I don't know about you, but if I were to print it out I'd do it on both sides of the paper (or insert the prints into plastic sleeves) so they would read like a proper magazine, but that's really not possible when the border art and page numbers are on the SAME SIDE on every page!
So, they've now switched from "end of the month" to bi-monthly. Way to inspire confidence in their future product by going back on promises.
As people are complaining that the image quality of the "Iggwilv’s Legacy" progressively gets worse with each additional article, the WotC people on the message boards said it was because they wanted to keep dial-up downloading easy by reducing resolution each time a new chapter was added and also because the screens they use at WotC are not capable of showing the difference between hi-res and low-res images - so they didn't notice any change in quality with reduced resolution. They want on to say they're only now considering the option of putting up multiple hi-res/lo-res formats & this is the kind of feed-back they need. Not terribly encouraging. If they'd taken a look at Paizo they'd know issues like image quality, maps with a labeled & unlabeled versions, etc. are a key interest among subscribers. One person claimed we couldn't expect multiple file versions available for download because the bandwidth costs to WotC would be too high. Does that sound promising for a "Digital Initiative" that is supposed to allow people to play online?
How exactly is it making it more dial-up friendly by not having the hi-res pictures available when you click the low-res pictures? Or are they talking about the pdf- version?
As for the "bandwidth issue" - are you freaking kidding me? Did they think they could put it all online and not have to up the bandwidth??? Do these people have any idea of how to do online publishing? *I* don't and *I* could have told them that! It's like some executive got the "brilliant" idea of putting them online and thus save the expenses on printing and immediately added that amount to the bottom line, with no idea what it would cost to actually host the magazines online.That's part of what we're supposed to be paying for!
And apparently they're still using monochrome monitors over there at the multi-million dollar company if they can't see the difference between the low-res and hi-res formats...
The issue of placing the page numbers & border art to facilitate double sided printing has been brought up on the WotC boards too and again WotC's online magazine people seem not to have considered issues like these. All I can say is that a year's preparation for switching to online versions has some serious gaps.
"...and again WotC's online magazine people seem not to have considered issues like these."
Okay, so WotC's magazine people are rank amateurs? Worse than rank amateurs actually!"Duh, we didn't consider putting page numbers and border art on alternating pages..."
Unf-ing believable.
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They are bi-monthly until 4e comes out, then back to monthly.
Just skimming around I get the impression that they intend to half-ass it until 4e comes out. I don't doubt that it will eventually be good for content and quality (though I'll never be a fan of switching a print magazine to a pay web zine) but it is just so strange that they haven't taken the steps to usher in the new format gracefully when they surely knew they would need to sway subscribers opinions. After all it was their company that set the timeline and surely those involved have known (and had time to prepare) far longer than we have.
Can you imagine any other company that would allow their brand to deteriorate during the lead in to making a big service switch. Like if I had a rocking little tapas bar and decided to switch to full dinner service. Then I lead into it with a really mediocre menu, forgetful wait staff, and mismatched cutlery, but don't think anyone will mind because dinner was free during my opening weekend and it wasn't my real menu anyway. We won't start that until week 2.
I believe they will get it together eventually- it's just embarrassing how poorly they are handling all the little details that should go hand in hand with a transition.
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I have not really read fully the articles.
However, as far as I am concerned, the problem for me is : how do I get a full download / printable version of Dungeon & Dragon ???
It seems that I have to "print friendly" articles one by one, or did I miss something ?!
Also, I used to pick my magazines to read during my travel to work, it was easy, in coulour (I own no colour printer), and now, it is much much less convenient and useful !
Overall, disappointed...
And I find that DDI is not well organized !
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It was light on content and took all month to finish. Now it is NOv. !st and we finally get a whole issue , light on contnet and all. I think they lost an issue. Shouldn't we get a new issue by the beggining of November? I'm glad I didn't pay a subscription for that, because I would feel that WotC ripped me off.
I liked the interview with the Beholder. The adventures were cool and so was the article on the Dukes of Hell and Grazzit in Dragon E-zine.
Can you download the whole issues? I did not see where we can do that...
I actually like the content. I enjoyed the Death Knight article and as an old guy I wish that more first edition stuff get's converted. I do not have problems with printing everything I really want to read. I actually do that with Pathfinder. I print it all and arrange it in a notebook for game days.
I also like being able to cut and past information.
People complain about the usability but I found that I can be better organized with digital information. With the old magazines I would read them and then they would get stored away. I never could find something I really wanted to use. I would say - I thought there was an article on... but usually did not get to use that info. Now I have it all on the hard drive and can arrange it anyway I want and I can print it and store related things all together if I choose so when I want info on a certain subject I can grab it and do the research.
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There is one thing that is finally setting in and it kills me :(
Unless I buy a laptop or start dating a girl at a print shop(for discounts on ink etc..), I won't be able to run adventures from dungeon anymore. Even if the content is good, it still takes a lot to get the "pages" in your hands.
*so far the layout is horrible but some content has been good
*the DI isn't going over like wotc thought it would, hence all the "just wait, it's great!!".. "this is just a beta, of course it will look better".. "you are a moron if you can't see how great it's going to be"...
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I found both the Dungeon Adventures to be good reads and great with stealability. So the usefullness is there. The attractiveness is not.
As for Dragon, I must be honest, I'm completly unimpressed. Not the the articles were horrible, they were just like wet cardboard to me. No utility for me at all.
-DM Jeff
As far as I am concerned this Dungeon 151 is a kind of "always in development magazine" I can see several different dates for every article, I don't like this, I am very completist I want own every material released when you had the paper magazine you knew that was and nothing else, but here you don't know if tomorrow they will put another article or another adventure. I don't like this format.But we don't have more option than evolve or get out the hobby.
Can you download the whole issues? I did not see where we can do that...
I'm now convinced that WotC never suggested such a thing, and that only our own speculation and hope led to believing there would be a pdf compilation of 'articles.'
On another note, I'm now objecting to the term 'issue.' Except for the inclusion of some full-length adventures (a non-trivial addition, to be fair), there's been little change in the content and quality of WotC's web offerings -- only now they include randomly-inserted issue numbers.
On the quality issue, I don't have high hopes for one reason -- lack of editing. No page limitations means no need to make a submission fit. As a result, I have absolutely no hope that WotC will spend time or money on meaningful editing. IMO the digital initiative is about one thing only -- eliminating the overhead expenses of print media. I haven't yet seen evidence that they are concerned with any resulting detrimental effects.
I pray WotC proves me wrong.
Regards.
"you are a moron if you can't see how great it's going to be"...
You must've been reading my thread over on the WotC boards :)
Before the moderators had to shut it down over increasingly-abusive language :/
Can you download the whole issues? I did not see where we can do that...I'm now convinced that WotC never suggested such a thing, and that only our own speculation and hope led to believing there would be a pdf compilation of 'articles.'
I remember seeing something on WotC's website saying that they were delaying the compilation. They were going to compile them bi-monthly leading up to the release. I can't seem to find the source though.
Regarding the note on compilation, it is linked (to the source) on EnWorld.org as saying they would.
Let's look at what the "November" Dungeon has: A kinda cool vampire setting (but not an adventure), a Save My Game column (which manages not to insult us at least), and a completely worthless "The Best Adventure I Never Wrote".
Rest in Peace, Dungeon Magazine.
I admit, it's getting to the point the only thing I read are the 4th edition updates. I'm getting mostly bored by the rest. After Nic Logue's adventure, Dungeon hasn't really provided much and Dragon has only had a couple interesting articles.
I surely hope it gets a whole lot better if they expect me to actually pay for this content in the middle of 2008.
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I'm now convinced that WotC never suggested such a thing, and that only our own speculation and hope led to believing there would be a pdf compilation of 'articles.'
3 Weeks ago WotC stated on Gleemax (Can't link it, forum is blocked at work)that they were behind on the PDF compliation for dragon and to expect it to be out in a few weeks and dungeon shortly after that, that in fact that it should be on his desk shortly. That was 3 weeks ago... still nothing..
Shows how much they want to impress us on what they are going to offer.
3 Weeks ago WotC stated on Gleemax (Can't link it, forum is blocked at work)that they were behind on the PDF compliation for dragon and to expect it to be out in a few weeks and dungeon shortly after that, that in fact that it should be on his desk shortly. That was 3 weeks ago... still nothing... Shows how much they want to impress us on what they are going to offer.
Boggles the mind, don't it?
So far, the DI continues to be (mostly) a list of promises. Someone made the point recently -- professionals don't bring their second-best work to customers.
But WotC does :/
I have been a "wait and see" guy for this whole time but over the last couple of weeks of hanging out here and over at the Wizards' boards I am slowly being drawn to the 3.5 side. I have been pretty disappointed by what they have done with Dungeon and Dragon. You would think they would want to blow us away during the first few months. Not so.
Goo
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I am underwhelmed by the DI. You would think with as much money as they were making they could have been better prepared for the switch.
And There lies the problem I am having... They have Known for MONTHS!!! that they were going in this direction... and it all looks like it was put together with gum and string and the last second(Used Gum to...yuck!)
Now there is some good articles and good Adventures there... but the presentation of it is GARBAGE.
And still now PDF!!! over a Month late!
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I am also a short step before losing my temper about this situation.
I want WotC and Dragon and Dungeon to succeed, but the efforts shown so far are less than stellar. (Gleemax - still in alpha - and everything else D&DI is really totally uncool at this point of time...).
I hope, they will get their act together, but my faith in the ability of the company that is WotC is deeply shaken.
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I'd pay about $2 per month for something like this.
Couldn't agree more. I purposely waited until I could see the whole thing at once; there's no way I'm subscribing @ $12+ a month for this.
Someone made the point recently -- professionals don't bring their second-best work to customers.
They don't if they're interested in remaining professionals, that's for sure. I'm ever the optimist though - if WotC can learn from their mistakes with #360 and make #361 something worth my while... well that'd be nice.
I'd pay about $2 per month for something like this.
Couldn't agree more. I purposely waited until I could see the whole thing at once; there's no way I'm subscribing @ $12+ a month for this.
Of course, lots of access to software will come with it too -- the precise nature is a bit fuzzy to me, though.
That said, TSR determined a long time ago that software for tabletop RPGs is a niche market in which there's little money for a big player -- hence the willingness to license Code Monkey and etools (and other examples).
I wonder who decided things have changed :/
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One of the things that concerns me is that they did not put out any adventures in Dungeon in November. So they are not keeping up. I guess having the deadline of a magazine is better for that. When you have that deadline you cannot push things off for a couple of weeks.
I think there have been some good articles and the content they have had has sometimes been good. It was always the same with the magazines for me. Some things I was interested in and some things I was not. I think there is way too much content about the development of 4e. When it comes to the new edition I would just rather see it and decide if it works for me or what parts work for me than to be inside someone's head step by step, inch by inch...
In retrospect I think they did it all backwards. I think they should have announced 4th edition with the online option stuff and then six months or a year after they had that part of the online thing going then move Dungeon and Dragon over the DI. It would have cut down on the disgruntled masses quite a bit. Of course there would have still be the backlash of "You took my magazines." But I think that the magazine issues (and then not doing it very well during the trial) has tainted the 4e thing completely. People see them connected issues and really for me they are two different things.
When it comes to online content. I am loving getting Pathfinder as a PDF as well as a print product. I am keeping my print products in pristine shape and printing out the whole thing and arranging it in notes books to run the game from. My players cannot tell what I am doing back there at all unless I have to pull out the MM or other creature book or a rule book for whatever reason. It is great. So the actual idea of DI is fine with me. The content has not been great so far.
Of course, lots of access to software will come with it too -- the precise nature is a bit fuzzy to me, though.That said, TSR determined a long time ago that software for tabletop RPGs is a niche market in which there's little money for a big player -- hence the willingness to license Code Monkey and etools (and other examples).
I wonder who decided things have changed :/
I wonder if they took into account the price of digital marketing. I once heard a talk from someone high up in the Springer publishing group. He said that it is as expensive to publish online as to publish in print. If WotC thinks that they could make the DI with the servers they have "at home" they are greatly wrong! And not being able to devise how much time it would take to edit the journal on a regular basis points into the direction, that they might greatly underestimate the workload and hardware costs of their DI endeavor. Just look at the MMOs, its a whole industry to keep one game running. Sure DI is not as big, but as paying customer I would want it to run smoothly at all times...I doubt this will happen, at least not in the first time.
It's a steaming heap of failure.
Great big steaming heap of nothing. It's scary that this is produced by the people who are creating 4E.
I have to imagine that they're hard at work on 4E and really didn't expect this much trouble with Dragon and Dungeon. The fact that they recently posted a job opening for a lead software developer tells me that they've probably lost whoever was filling that role, which would add some difficulty to the overall management of the DI (I base this on flimsy assumptions). I also remember reading somewhere that they've been having the developers write articles on the side while working on 4E and have been doing so for some time. Perhaps those articles have gotten lost in Corporate Approval Hell or were deemed not ready for prime time when it came time to throw them up (no pun intended). Bunch of little issues = big fat mess.
I'm willing to give them time to work it all out, as long as it remains free. It makes sense to me, even with all the time that they've had, that they would want to keep the Good Stuff on hold until the new edition rolls out. Does this suck for 3.5 players jonesing for a fix? Yeah, but thats why a lot of us are signing our paychecks over to Paizo these days.
Finally, I'd just like to say that, although I haven't really been wowed by most of whats been posted there so far, I was extremely happy to get the third part of Nicolas Logue's Eberron set, for free, and with not-terrible artwork. It almost makes up for all the supposed "preview" articles and all the "I can't tell you about anything useful, but I can say that its the coolest cool thing that ever did cool, and you'll just have to take my word for it, nana nana boo boo" nonsense.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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As far as I'm concerned it has been greatly underwhelming.
The individual articles (while being quite good in most respects - Demonomicon & Dukes of Hell were the standouts), to me seem just the same in most respects to the articles that we have been getting for free from Wizards for years now. Granted some of them are a little longer than previous freebies, but still... why should I pay for them now when I've been downloading them for free for years?
The Dungeon Adventures (even though they have been in the Stupid Delve Format) have been good. Hell's Heart was the standout and not just because I was eagerly anticipating the conclusion of Logue's Eberron Masterpiece =) The rest however has ranged from good to useless.
The Dungeon Adventures (even though they have been in the Stupid Delve Format) have been good. Hell's Heart was the standout and not just because I was eagerly anticipating the conclusion of Logue's Eberron Masterpiece =) The rest however has ranged from good to useless.
Yeah, the Delve Format? That can go die in a fire.
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... why should I pay for them now when I've been downloading them for free for years?
I guess they assume, because they're charging for it now?
They prematurely kill the successful print editions, and then begin roll their standard website content into the new "magazines." So at once taking away two things we enjoyed... the Paizo mags, and free web content. And then offering their vaunted replacement at a much slower, inconsistent rate. Not a great plan to ensure conversions. I'm sure some people will follow, eventually, but it sure has engendered resentment from me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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... why should I pay for them now when I've been downloading them for free for years?I guess they assume, because they're charging for it now?
They prematurely kill the successful print editions, and then begin roll their standard website content into the new "magazines." So at once taking away two things we enjoyed... the Paizo mags, and free web content. And then offering their vaunted replacement at a much slower, inconsistent rate. Not a great plan to ensure conversions. I'm sure some people will follow, eventually, but it sure has engendered resentment from me.
I saw this coming a while ago when Keith (not Rich) Baker said he had dragonshards written and paid for, and they were behind on releasing them.
What iritates me is that the web enhancements are, in essence being paid for twice. Once in the cost of the book (since the material was written and paid for, just edted from the book) and then once in the DI.
And do the authors of the cut material get paid twice? Not so much.
Caveat: I do know the Dragons of Eberron Web Enhancement was specificaly wrote for the website
For what its worth, I know there are some FR articles that got written that have never seen the light of day either. Its even stranger when you consider the recent "Realmslore" columns by Rich Baker, Brian James, and Bruce Cordell were commissioned with these in the backlog hopper.
For what its worth, I know there are some FR articles that got written that have never seen the light of day either. Its even stranger when you consider the recent "Realmslore" columns by Rich Baker, Brian James, and Bruce Cordell were commissioned with these in the backlog hopper.
And with any luck Errant Jr., they never will see the light of day...
And with any luck Errant Jr., they never will see the light of day...
Merry Christmas to you too Allen . . . nothing quite like a kick to the kidneys when a guy is down to say the holidays are here . . . ;)
Merry Christmas to you too Allen . . . nothing quite like a kick to the kidneys when a guy is down to say the holidays are here . . . ;)
And with any luck Errant Jr., they never will see the light of day...
Anytime my friend:) All humor aside, I certainly wish you and yours a pleasant holiday season.
And given that it is the holidays, you must be frothing at the mouth for the opportunity to fork over yet another $35 for the new 4.0 FR book, due out next summer, that likely reprints most of what the last few books covered in 3.5... only updated with 4.0 stats:) And Greyhawk still doesn't get a book even though the last one sold extremely well.