The impression I get from people who have been to D&D XP is that the WotC people there were genuinely upset that they haven't been able to get the GSL out yet.
Of course WotC is not a monolithic entity so its possible people further up the chain are withholding the GSL and misleading their employees as well as everybody else. I just don't think its likely.
Yeah, I'm sure the designers and creatives and working joes at WotC have no desire to put the screws to their colleagues at other companies. But in the corporate world it's the lawyers and bean counters who call the shots.
Many of my posts might lead someone to believe that I don't like corporations very much. But the reality is that...well, I don't like corporations very much.
....both of which are better than:
C. Go completely with 4e, going after the scraps left by a company that holds 90%+ of the market share, and doing so completely on terms dictated by your huge corporate-backed competitor.
...and noting that if 4e fails to impress Hasbro by making up for the large number of 3.5 loyalists they're losing, the board of directors will kill D&D...and the GSL...and all the licensees relying 100% on the GSL for their business. And that assumes the GSL *doesn't* contain terms that allows it to be terminated if Hasbro thinks a licensee is starting to impinge too much on its market...
That has been my issue since 4E was announced and publicly started to take shape- as a major third party supplier to WotC's D&D, one's profits are certainly going to be more solidly grounded then if one was attached to a no name RPG. However, those profits are predicated on the vagaries of Hasbro/WotC's boardroom and policies. As it stands, it's clear third party suppliers are not a major consideration- I've said this before, but the GSL should have been dealt with at least in tandem with 4E's development, if not before. Hasbro is a multi million dollar company and doubtless has a legal department. What was being done about this for the past few years? To be frank, this kind of delay reeks of either incompetence or apathy, neither of which fills me with confidence.
Anyway, I think Paizo's long term future is better served by producing generic Gamemastery RPG products and some 4th edition material, but that their core business should be based on a d20 system of their own creation, uncoupling the company from the decisions of others and freeing them from being hostages to the D&D IP's fortune.
The impression I get from people who have been to D&D XP is that the WotC people there were genuinely upset that they haven't been able to get the GSL out yet.Of course WotC is not a monolithic entity so its possible people further up the chain are withholding the GSL and misleading their employees as well as everybody else. I just don't think its likely.
I have been somewhat severe with 4th Edition developers in recent posts, here and at EN World.
I do believe that they are genuinely upset. I'm not a hateful or unreasonable man.
The problem is, someone has to be accountable and someone has to put pressure on those who are ultimately responsible for getting it done.
Paizo, as a company, has no voice in this matter. For them, the GSL does not come from Burger King. "They don't get it their way. They get it when someone says they can have it."
I've tried to intelligently and politely turn up the heat, because as a consumer, I *do* have a voice. Alone, I might be ignored, but I can still speak out.
Paizo's inability to move forward might be as damaging to their sales as whatever actual decision they actually make.
I like consistency. I am a bit funny about what I own needing to have clear categories. It would be jarring and uncomfortable to me to have pathfinder stuff for two editions.
WOW!
Im so glad Im anot alone. Its a real anal thing to feel but I am in the same boat. Thanks!Im so anal that the moduals changing from Gamemastery to Pathfinder will be annoying to me and I wish I could be able to re-buy the old mods with the Pathfinder logo on them.
You can emagine what an edition change will do to my OCD. :)
A. Become a leading 3.5 niche company, facing a smaller market (3.5 loyalists), but potentially getting a much larger share of that pool, since you're no longer competing with the 8,000-pound gorilla for the same gamer dollars, orB. Play both sides of the fence, on the grounds that "modest 3.5 profit" + "modest 4e profit" = "pretty good total profit"... and being in position to jump entirely to one edition or the other in the event one of the two markets implodes.
....both of which are better than:
C. Go completely with 4e, going after the scraps left by a company that holds 90%+ of the market share, and doing so completely on terms dictated by your huge corporate-backed competitor.
...and noting that if 4e fails to impress Hasbro by making up for the large number of 3.5 loyalists they're losing, the board of directors will kill D&D...and the GSL...and all the licensees relying 100% on the GSL for their business. And that assumes the GSL *doesn't* contain terms that allows it to be terminated if Hasbro thinks a licensee is starting to impinge too much on its market...
Your forgot Option D) Make their own gaming system (like Paradigm wants to do)
Chief Technical Officer
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The thing is, with the advent of PDF publishing, one line could be relegated to "electronic format only" and assigned entirely - or primarily - to freelancers (though this would probably have to be the 3.x line, given familiarity + the $5K "buy-in" to see 4E before the official release date).
Paizo could, essentially, do editing and layout for one line while producing the other.
Unless they're an even smaller company than I realized?
I think a lot of folks share your misperception of electronic publishing. PDFs lower the cost of distribution, but that's not the problem here. You still have to write, edit, and lay it out; you still have to pay writers and artists; you still have to spend just as many people-hours on it. Creating a secondary electronic-only line is just as much work as creating a secondary print line. (Sure, we don't have to actually *print* it—but we pay people in China to do that anyway, so it's the same to us.)
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You mean, they shouldn't avoid Russia after the middle of June?
Vic, when you come on this thread, aren't you supposed to remind us that you haven't seen the GSL yet? You wouldn't want any irresponsible rumors getting started, would you?
An earlier post, someone was talking about 300 books.
That's crazy talk. I got a big order from Paizo yesterday. It was sent in the box that they received their Gamemastery modules in from China. Sadly, it used shredded game books as a packing material (I nearly cried). On the box it said that there were 120 modules in each box. This box was 4 of 42. So, that means a print run of 5040 or so...
300 books. Crazy talk.
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You know...if Paizo decides not to go with 4th Edition, perhaps it might consider the 3rd edition and a setting engine where a METACLASS can be used (a metaclass is a new class built on the pre-existing core classes).
Examples:
Executioner(Thief/Fighter)
Scout(Thief/Fighter)
Artisan(Mage/Thief)
Crusader(War Cleric/Fighter)
Witchdoctor(Death Cleric/Necromancy Wizard)
There are subtle diferences between even the Executioner and Scout despite identical core classes.
You know...if Paizo decides not to go with 4th Edition, perhaps it might consider the 3rd edition and a setting engine where a METACLASS can be used (a metaclass is a new class built on the pre-existing core classes).
Examples:
Executioner(Thief/Fighter)
Scout(Thief/Fighter)
Artisan(Mage/Thief)
Crusader(War Cleric/Fighter)
Witchdoctor(Death Cleric/Necromancy Wizard)There are subtle diferences between even the Executioner and Scout despite identical core classes.
Let me be the first to say: YUCK!
NopeDid you get the GSL yet? Is it there yet?
You're a fiendish dinosaur! EAT somebody!
THEN they'll get you the GSl!
WotC has pretty much wrecked everything FR and D&D. If Paizo continues to produce 3.5 or even 3.75, then I shall remain here.
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You know...if Paizo decides not to go with 4th Edition, perhaps it might consider the 3rd edition and a setting engine where a METACLASS can be used (a metaclass is a new class built on the pre-existing core classes).
Examples:
Executioner(Thief/Fighter)
Scout(Thief/Fighter)
Artisan(Mage/Thief)
Crusader(War Cleric/Fighter)
Witchdoctor(Death Cleric/Necromancy Wizard)There are subtle diferences between even the Executioner and Scout despite identical core classes.
You might want to check out Mongoose's Quintessential class series, they provided something like this concept as options in their books, and as 4E is coming out soon, you might be able to find 3E products discounted (if still available).
I'm sure Dragon magazine has done similar articles, check out the Class Acts column.
The Undead Stalker example of creating a new class in the DMG does something similar buy cobbling together different aspects of different classes to create a new class.
I don't think they're such a bad idea. As with any idea, it all depends on how well they're written.
Cheers.
Well, I have mixed feelings about 4.0. The preview stuff that came out of the D&D Ex left me with a bad taste (I think it was too much of "this is the best thing sense sliced bread), but I will be buying the core books.
I think, in the long run, support of 4.0 is the way for you to go. You guys do great stuff and I'd want you to succeed.
Well, I have mixed feelings about 4.0. The preview stuff that came out of the D&D Ex left me with a bad taste (I think it was too much of "this is the best thing sense sliced bread), but I will be buying the core books.
I think, in the long run, support of 4.0 is the way for you to go. You guys do great stuff and I'd want you to succeed.
I'm thinking that WotC has made a tremendous blunder in their approach to creating, marketing and licensing 4th edition. While I'm sure that, initially, it will be a success I don't think it will be able to maintain a fan-base for long.
This is why I'd hope that Paizo doesn't "hitch their wagon" (as the creator of Living Arcanis put it) to 4th edition. Based on what I've read and seen in various interviews I think 3rd party publishers should band together and not link their future well-being on WotC's vision of D&D.
In the end, WotC has shown little regard for them (the surprise switch to 3.5, the surprise announcement of 4th edition and their current handling of the GSL) and their customers (many of whom are also WotC customers).
I'm thinking that WotC has made a tremendous blunder in their approach to creating, marketing and licensing 4th edition. While I'm sure that, initially, it will be a success I don't think it will be able to maintain a fan-base for long.
This is why I'd hope that Paizo doesn't "hitch their wagon" (as the creator of Living Arcanis put it) to 4th edition. Based on what I've read and seen in various interviews I think 3rd party publishers should band together and not link their future well-being on WotC's vision of D&D.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Chris. This whole thing looks like Wotc "slapped" it together. And then they want people to ante up $5000 to get an early look at it, when they can't even get it to them "early."
It sounds too scary to "hitch your wagon to" at this point. I'd be too afraid that 4.5 wasn't too far around the corner to fix the slapped-together game's problems.
IMO, Wotc should have waited another year. Then they could have had their ducks in a row, and they would have likely seemed more professonal with their campaign to transition us all (gamer and publisher alike) over to the new system. I might have bought into then. As it stands now, they just look like the big bully pushing the change through because they are the biggest company and can do what they want, regardless of how it affects everyone else. And I'm sure they can. Doesn't mean I'll be one of the consumers, though.
I'm thinking that WotC has made a tremendous blunder in their approach to creating, marketing and licensing 4th edition. While I'm sure that, initially, it will be a success I don't think it will be able to maintain a fan-base for long.
This is why I'd hope that Paizo doesn't "hitch their wagon" (as the creator of Living Arcanis put it) to 4th edition. Based on what I've read and seen in various interviews I think 3rd party publishers should band together and not link their future well-being on WotC's vision of D&D.
In the end, WotC has shown little regard for them (the surprise switch to 3.5, the surprise announcement of 4th edition and their current handling of the GSL) and their customers (many of whom are also WotC customers).
Well said.
In the end, WotC has shown little regard for them (the surprise switch to 3.5, the surprise announcement of 4th edition and their current handling of the GSL) and their customers (many of whom are also WotC customers).
Um, just being picky I know, but let us not forget that the majority of these companies would not exist without the gracious OGL/GSL that WotC continues to provide. Just saying.
Um, just being picky I know, but let us not forget that the majority of these companies would not exist without the gracious OGL/GSL that WotC continues to provide. Just saying.
It is true that many of those companies owuld not exist (or would be less successful) without the OGL. However, it is not fair to say that Wizards continues to provide it. The OGL cannot be rescinded, by the nature of Open Licenses.
The GSL hasn't been provided to ANYONE yet, and it remains to be seen if its terms will be gracious or not.
Paradigm's announcement was a real eye opener for me, and not in a way that I would've predicted.
I love me some Arcanis. As I've been hobbling together a patchwork homegame of various pre-published content, the Arcanis setting has formed a large chunk of it.
However, the announcement from PCI that they were neither going 4th edition nor 3.5 brought home the idea that I will either have to commit fully to their product exclusively or not use it at all. It hadn't occured to me until now what a boon the OGL was in that I could pick and choose from multiple publishers and have an expectation that they'd all fit together mechanically.
Companies who choose to go off and do their own thing (like PCI or Kenzer using a new Hackmaster system) have pretty much taken themselves off my list of viable publishers.
Um, just being picky I know, but let us not forget that the majority of these companies would not exist without the gracious OGL/GSL that WotC continues to provide. Just saying.
Let us also not forget that many of those companies (i.e. Paizo, Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Swords & Sorcery Studios, Malhavoc Press and Goodman Games) released fine OGL products that brought more gamers to the table and, consequently, to the store to purchase WotC's products.
Um, just being picky I know, but let us not forget that the majority of these companies would not exist without the gracious OGL/GSL that WotC continues to provide. Just saying.
It's a symbiotic relationship TLR, it always has been.
OGL was fairly generous, perhaps more generous that GSL will be. It was an impressive landmark in the history of role-playing.
But this has always been symbiotic. The licenses help to sell Core Books. And if Paizo converted to 4th Edition, it would do much toward converting the established player base.
You're a buddy, so this is not an attack.. but I can not chock the OGL/GSL to pure altruism. Uh uh. No way. WOTC reaped a benefit as well.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Vic, when you come on this thread, aren't you supposed to remind us that you haven't seen the GSL yet?
Oh. Right. Well, we haven't seen it yet. And, given that it's 6PM on Friday, I'm guessing it won't arrive tomorrow or the next day either. In fact, I'm so confident that you can feel free to assume it's true even if I don't come in here and say so.
And if I'm wrong, well... this is one of those times where I'd REALLY like to be proven wrong.
Paradigm's announcement was a real eye opener for me, and not in a way that I would've predicted.
I love me some Arcanis. As I've been hobbling together a patchwork homegame of various pre-published content, the Arcanis setting has formed a large chunk of it.
However, the announcement from PCI that they were neither going 4th edition nor 3.5 brought home the idea that I will either have to commit fully to their product exclusively or not use it at all. It hadn't occured to me until now what a boon the OGL was in that I could pick and choose from multiple publishers and have an expectation that they'd all fit together mechanically.
Companies who choose to go off and do their own thing (like PCI or Kenzer using a new Hackmaster system) have pretty much taken themselves off my list of viable publishers.
As a big OGL fan myself, I'm curious, if WotC's new, more restrictive GSL, severely limits what 3rd-party publishers can print cause you to view WotC the same way? I ask because what little we know of the GSL seems like they want their product exclusively used as well.
My best purchases of the 3.x era are OGL rulebooks and d20 licensed products, not WotC rulebooks. I recognize that's a minority view, but the idea that games like Conan, Game of Thrones, Thieves' World, etc. won't exist in the 4e era causes me to take a very dim view of WotC these days.
I can understand PCI's decision just as I understand Mongoose's efforts to maintain independence from WotC through their Conan, RuneQuest, and upcoming Traveller games. While Necro is all-in for 4e and Goodman appears to be as well, the types of products they can publish may be constrained. If Green Ronin publishes 4e products, I'll be shocked if it's more than a few products here and there. I can't really see them putting a large portion of their business in the 4e basket.
Just my 2 cents. Or Asstral Diamonds ;)
My best purchases of the 3.x era are OGL rulebooks and d20 licensed products, not WotC rulebooks. I recognize that's a minority view, but the idea that games like Conan, Game of Thrones, Thieves' World, etc. won't exist in the 4e era causes me to take a very dim view of WotC these days.
I can't agree more with this. I have a ton of gaming books on my shelf that are third party, and they are the ones I use most often (Iron Kingdoms and Midnight particularly). Third party companies have engaged my interest much more than WotC. This isn't a slight on Wizards, as there are many books that I do like (and use occasionally) but for keeping my fascination, third parties have definitely won out.
I just saw it! The GSL. Over there in the bushes. Anyone got a camera?
Awww. Crap it's gone.
I just saw it! The GSL. Over there in the bushes. Anyone got a camera?
Awww. Crap it's gone.
Nah, that was just a Bigfoot. Nowhere near as hard to find as the GSL.
oh where is an epic ranger riding a chocobo when you need one.Hell i'm guessing to find the GSL we'll have to have at lest 5 of em.Any one have a summon epic ranger spell handy.Any one?
As a big OGL fan myself, I'm curious, if WotC's new, more restrictive GSL, severely limits what 3rd-party publishers can print cause you to view WotC the same way?
That's a good point. What I've heard has lead me to believe they're still encouraging 3rd party additions, but that may just be my own assumptions.
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Vic, when you come on this thread, aren't you supposed to remind us that you haven't seen the GSL yet?Oh. Right. Well, we haven't seen it yet. And, given that it's 6PM on Friday, I'm guessing it won't arrive tomorrow or the next day either. In fact, I'm so confident that you can feel free to assume it's true even if I don't come in here and say so.
And if I'm wrong, well... this is one of those times where I'd REALLY like to be proven wrong.
Me not! ;)
NopeDid you get the GSL yet? Is it there yet?
You're a fiendish dinosaur! EAT somebody!
THEN they'll get you the GSl!
One of the players in my champions game is sort of a lizardlike shapeshifter.
His character ate two three foot tall gingerbread men, and then promptly got very ill. One of the other heroes managed to get him an improvised barf bag.
And let me tell you, with the way WOTC's behaving, Mr. Perkins is going to taste like !@#$ compared to 200 pounds of gingerbread.
And let me tell you, with the way WOTC's behaving, Mr. Perkins is going to taste like !@#$ compared to 200 pounds of gingerbread.
It's getting so that I hate having the name Chris Perkins... :(
Chris Perkins: Threadkiller!
At the tone, we still haven't been given the GSL.
*BEEP*
Traslation = The third AP will probably be 3.5 since time is running out.
BTW, No matter what, I trust Paizo. Also, I am not meaning to insult the 4.x people. If it were 4.x instead of 3.5, I would still buy it! I just would prefer it to be 3.5.
At the sound of the tone it will be precisely 11:00 AM Greenwitch Mean Time.
And there is still no word on the GSL.
*BEEP*
I plan on staying with Paizo, and if Paizo created their own 3,75 version, without being tied to WoTC, that would be awesome!
I would really hope for a D&D the Paizo version.
It would seem we are *rapidly* approaching the point at which companies would no longer be able to have any 4e product (even 16-page minimodules) ready to go in time for GenCon.
And if that's the case, there's very little reason for companies to pay the $5,000 early-adopter fee.
Seems like this delay risks costing WotC a really good chunk of change. Not a good sign, for WotC or for third-party publishers.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Hmmm. With regard to Vic going *BEEP*, maybe it's a clever quote on the time-pips signal that there are/used to be on some BBC Radio news items at the top of an hour.
Growing up in the Washington DC area, we had two phone prefixes reserved for special use. If you called 936 followed by any four digits, you'd get the weather, and if you called 844 followed by any four digits, you'd get the time, introduced like so:
"At the tone, the time will be 9:36 AM exactly." *beeeep*
I literally set my watch by that thing for years, and after I moved out of the area, I used to even call it long distance. Until the internet came along and brought NTP servers, anyway.
I was also thinking of the Speaking Clock in the UK. Don't know if it's still there, but you'd dial "TIM," and get:
"At the third stroke, it will be 9.36 and thirty seconds precisely." *pip-pip-pip*
I wasn't saying anything more than that we still don't have the GSL.
(And no, we still don't have the GSL.)
I was also thinking of the Speaking Clock in the UK. Don't know if it's still there, but you'd dial "TIM," and get:
Wow... I've lived here in the UK my whole 34 years, grew up thinking what a wondrous thing the speaking clock was (ok, so I'm a bit of a time geek - my watch syncs to the radio time signal from Frankfurt, amongst other things), and never twigged that's why the number was what it was.
It seems that we just don't use the letters on phone keys here, it was years after we went from rotary-dial to touch-tone phones before I'd even seen such a thing. Certainly I've never seen anyone advertise an 0800 MY-FIRM number here the way they do in the US - it would be a sure route to "0800 WTF"?
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Paradigm's announcement was a real eye opener for me, and not in a way that I would've predicted.
I love me some Arcanis. As I've been hobbling together a patchwork homegame of various pre-published content, the Arcanis setting has formed a large chunk of it.
However, the announcement from PCI that they were neither going 4th edition nor 3.5 brought home the idea that I will either have to commit fully to their product exclusively or not use it at all. It hadn't occured to me until now what a boon the OGL was in that I could pick and choose from multiple publishers and have an expectation that they'd all fit together mechanically.
Companies who choose to go off and do their own thing (like PCI or Kenzer using a new Hackmaster system) have pretty much taken themselves off my list of viable publishers.
Hey I see your point. But some variety is good once in a while on the menu, and then ... who says it will be so different from 3.5, after all ?
And then, you can adapt things from one system to another. Most of the time, at least. so don't give up, yet.
I can't wait for my next release of Arcanis modules myself.
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I think a lot of folks share your misperception of electronic publishing. PDFs lower the cost of distribution, but that's not the problem here. You still have to write, edit, and lay it out; you still have to pay writers and artists; you still have to spend just as many people-hours on it. Creating a secondary electronic-only line is just as much work as creating a secondary print line. (Sure, we don't have to actually *print* it—but we pay people in China to do that anyway, so it's the same to us.)The thing is, with the advent of PDF publishing, one line could be relegated to "electronic format only" and assigned entirely - or primarily - to freelancers (though this would probably have to be the 3.x line, given familiarity + the $5K "buy-in" to see 4E before the official release date).
Paizo could, essentially, do editing and layout for one line while producing the other.
Unless they're an even smaller company than I realized?
I don't know how fesible it would be, but maybe have 3.5 pdf versions of the products if paizo goes 4e. I mean most of the book would only need to be written once, the fluff wouldn't change only the crunch. It might not be perfect but it might be workable. Guess it really depends on if the added sales would offset the additional cost of doing basicly double crunch for each book.
I know on Necro where I post a lot, they are talking about offering free 3.5 crunch to use with their stuff. if the GSL allows it and it is profitable still. Anyways just a thought.
For me personally i don't care which one it is when it comes to campaign world settings or adventures or books of mostly fluff stuff. I can change the crunch easily enough. i mean I have used DnD worlds and adventures in a wide range of games before from Savage Worlds, to Rolemaster to GURPS.
So as long as Paizo keeps up the quality of products, especially if the stay fluff heavy I will keep buying them.