4.0: PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED


4th Edition

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The Exchange

DMcCoy1693 wrote:

I'll doubly agree with you. I'm tired of all the "4E is the 2nd coming of RPGs that will save us from the dark ages of 3.5" crap. Like I was saying before. Lets just agree to disagree.

I'm perfectly ok with those that want to play 4E as long as they're not shoving it down my throat or insulting my game (I'm lookin at you WotC).

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. That is why I like talking with folks like you and disenchanter - we disagree but we disagree on a level that we can actually talk about it and exchange ideas in a civil manner.


crosswiredmind wrote:
TerraNova wrote:
Hmm, have the laws of probability been revised since i last looked at them? Last time i checked, it was 4.5 for a d8, and 5.5 for a d10. Ooops... guess with usual "round fractions down", you made a little blunder here. Too bad.

You are correct about 4.5 but I use real world rounding.

TerraNova wrote:
Ok, give me a die that has an expected roll of 5, then. Hmm, would be a D9. Strange, i seem to have none handy. So either its a lame "reroll 10s" rule coming up (which is going to go SO well with players), or you shift the probabilities...
If the flat add is five then the intention was that it was based on a d8. It's not hard to figure that out. If people can write sophisticated house rules for 3.5 then this house rule for 4E should be very simple to implement.

Crosswiredmind:

Are you privy to information that you can not disclose to the rest of us on the count of: 'If the flat add is five then the intention was that it was based on d8'?
As far as I am aware, in 3.5, if you use the 'automatic hit points' option instead of roll, then 5 hp is what you gain from a class with a d10 HD. In 3.5, fractions get rounded down, (except for fractions lower than 1, which are rounded up to 1)- although I might have missed an errata somewhere that says otherwise.
ence my polite speculation as to whether you are privy to information you are not allowed to reveal, if the HD to be associated with a '5' in 4E will be a D8?

The Exchange

interview with Rouse and Collins wrote:

Question: Will elements of future books, such as the Martial Sourcebook, Arcane Sourcebook, Tome of Treasures, etc, be added to the GSL?

Answer: There will be elements of future source-books. The GSL will be updated on a more regular basis. Rouse stated that they would ultimately rather have folks design new stuff than just rehash what WotC has published. They also want ppublishers to be able to reference all of the core classes, all of which will not be available in the initial three books.

Q: Will the GSL (Games System License) prohibit 3rd party publsihers from creating certain kinds of material, ie: sourcebooks, software, etc?

Answer: Yes. It’s going to be a bit more how like the d20 system trademark works. For example, companies can still create fantasy based minis, they just can’t create compatible rules. There can also be no GSL based computer games. Adventures, campaign settings, sourcebooks, are still all ok.

Question: What exactly is the holdup with getting third party publishers the new OGL?

Answer: It’s taking longer than they had hoped. WotC had talked with several third party publishers in January. A draft of the License is in review and Scott and Andy both agree that it is a priority in one of the things they’d really like to get off their chest. “We want folks to have the license. We want them to contribute and participate. We want to make sure the license does what we want it to do, and doesn’t do what we don’t want it to do.” The powers that be also need to make sure that Wizards isn’t opening themselves to something damaging. Their chief concern is to protect the game, for personal and professional reasons. They’ve learned a lot from the OGL, and enhance what worked there.

Question: What sorts of products do you hope that 3rd party publishers produce?

Answer: Campaign settings, adventures, sourcebooks, etc. “We want them to do creative stuff; explore as many avenues of design as they can find in the game. I hope that a lot of them find different places to explore than what WotC is doing, but know there will be overlap.” Rouse continued, saying that if 3 companies publish the same monster, the players will decide which is the best. Wizards is looking for serious companies to contribute for the long haul.

Seems pretty clear the Golarion? will not be able to continue as is based on what I have bolded if Paizo transitions to 4e, or for that matter, republish the "classes on vacation," anytime soon.

Liberty's Edge

I'll keep buying Paizo product for the same reasons I buy stuff from Steve Jackson games: You make good product and you treat your customers well. As long as that remains constant, I'll always have SOME use for it. As I get more and more of a look at 4e, find myself wondering "Why couldn't this have been added into the existing system, or at least made backwards-compatible?" I don't want my several-thousand-dollar library of 3.0 & 3.5 material to be unusable, especially since I have a pretty solid feel of what's in the whole massive thing. I find it sad that the supply of 3.5 material is going to be drying up soon, but there are still dozens, if not hundreds, of 3.5 books and e-books I want to get. And if I run out of stuff to buy eventually? Well, my wife will be happy. That said, I will buy the 4e core books, if for no other reason than just to see what they did. I may eventually convert to a newer edition, but I really don't want to, and I'd be REALLY interested in seeing a 3.75 RPG put out by Paizo (and maybe, as long as I'm dreaming, embraced by some of the other major publishers like Green Ronin and Privateer Press) but for now, I think I can sit back and wait to see what happens. What I'd see as the ideal scenario (that will never happen, but still...) is this:

2008: WotC releases 4e to much fanfare and abyssmal sales numbers.
2009: Focus groups and marketing types discover that 3.5 still has plenty of demand left in it.
2012: After 4 years of dragging along with a system selling at subpar levels, WotC releases 5e, and touts as a major feature that it's "compatable with your old 3.5 books!" 5e is basically a cleaned-up, rebalanced, and streamlined version of 3.5. The fighter is more like the warblade, the old cosmology is back, and away we go.

The Exchange

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Are you privy to information that you can not disclose to the rest of us on the count of: 'If the flat add is five then the intention was that it was based on d8'?

As far as I am aware, in 3.5, if you use the 'automatic hit points' option instead of roll, then 5 hp is what you gain from a class with a d10 HD. In 3.5, fractions get rounded down, (except for fractions lower than 1, which are rounded up to 1)- although I might have missed an errata somewhere that says otherwise.
ence my polite speculation as to whether you are privy to information you are not allowed to reveal, if the HD to be associated with a '5' in 4E will be a D8?

The add rule in 3.5 is half the die +1 so d4 is 3, d6 is 4, etc. The tweaked it a little in some RPGA games but that is the add rule from the DMG IIRC.

Dark Archive

Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5?

Those little descriptors next to the posters names say a lot about the posters. It seems to me that many of the 4ed defenders only recently showed up on these boards, and many of them weren't Paizo customers.

Is there a site somewhere that is telling folks, "They're not jumping on the 4ed bandwagon over there at Paizo. Get over there and change their minds!"


kikai13 wrote:

Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5?

Those little descriptors next to the posters names say a lot about the posters. It seems to me that many of the 4ed defenders only recently showed up on these boards, and many of them weren't Paizo customers.

Is there a site somewhere that is telling folks, "They're not jumping on the 4ed bandwagon over there at Paizo. Get over there and change their minds!"

well im not a subscriber becase of cash flow issues but i have noticed the same thing so there may be something to it or maybe not


Lilith wrote:
Callum wrote:
I was wondering, and I'm still utterly amazed that this can be the case when they've got finished galleries of the core rulebooks over at Wizards!
Presumably you're talking about art - art takes a lot, lot, lot longer than text (normally), and it's the kind of stuff that could be ordered well in advance. It's not terribly surprising that art is being put up already.

I actually said "finished galleys", meaning galley proofs - which Bill Slavicsek had said they were looking at in the Wizards' offices.


Callum wrote:
I actually said "finished galleys", meaning galley proofs - which Bill Slavicsek had said they were looking at in the Wizards' offices.

My apologies then.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:

I think you need to read Balabanto's posts in context.

That's the only way they ever make sense to me.
crosswiredmind wrote:
OMG - I hope that's not a self portrait Sebastian.
Sebastian wrote:
I'm the cat! (sadly, no, it is not me)

So who is it then?

Sovereign Court

Timespike wrote:


2008: WotC releases 4e to much fanfare and abyssmal sales numbers.
2009: Focus groups and marketing types discover that 3.5 still has plenty of demand left in it.
2012: After 4 years of dragging along with a system selling at subpar levels, WotC releases 5e, and touts as a major feature that it's "compatable with your old 3.5 books!" 5e is basically a cleaned-up, rebalanced, and streamlined version of 3.5. The fighter is more like the warblade, the old cosmology is back, and away we go.

that's too good to be true.

Let's say :
2008 : WOTC relases 4e, initial sales are good.
2009 : casual gamers have discovered how crap and illogical the system is and move on to Guild Wars 2 and the new WOW extension. old time fans are still pissed. sales plummet.
2010 : WOTC end the game complaining about gamers being unfair customers.

Sovereign Court

kikai13 wrote:

Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5?

Those little descriptors next to the posters names say a lot about the posters. It seems to me that many of the 4ed defenders only recently showed up on these boards, and many of them weren't Paizo customers.

Is there a site somewhere that is telling folks, "They're not jumping on the 4ed bandwagon over there at Paizo. Get over there and change their minds!"

Not necessarily my friend. I hate 4e, but living in europe, the delivery fees are much steeper for me, so ordering often is not a smart option. Better not to subscribe, then place a huge order now and then.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Stereofm wrote:

2008 : WOTC relases 4e, initial sales are good.

2009 : casual gamers have discovered how crap and illogical the system is and move on to Guild Wars 2 and the new WOW extension. old time fans are still pissed. sales plummet.
2010 : WOTC end the game complaining about gamers being unfair customers.

2012: Mayan calendar ends; universe implodes. :P

But enough silliness. Back on topic. I noticed in the past few days that several posters elsewhere on the net are claiming the following: WotC designers at D&D XP have openly admitted that the design of 4e is intended to appeal specifically to gamists.

That would seem to suggest that there is now an open niche in the market for a company willing to cater to a more simulationist crowd; a bit more gritty, a little less cinematic. If it turns out that Paizo does not immediately switch to 4e, perhaps this could be their angle.


crosswiredmind wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Are you privy to information that you can not disclose to the rest of us on the count of: 'If the flat add is five then the intention was that it was based on d8'?

As far as I am aware, in 3.5, if you use the 'automatic hit points' option instead of roll, then 5 hp is what you gain from a class with a d10 HD. In 3.5, fractions get rounded down, (except for fractions lower than 1, which are rounded up to 1)- although I might have missed an errata somewhere that says otherwise.
ence my polite speculation as to whether you are privy to information you are not allowed to reveal, if the HD to be associated with a '5' in 4E will be a D8?
The add rule in 3.5 is half the die +1 so d4 is 3, d6 is 4, etc. The tweaked it a little in some RPGA games but that is the add rule from the DMG IIRC.

Crosswiredmind:

I find after checking the 3.5 DM that they changed the 'fixed hit points' rule in 3.5, so that you gain precisely average hitpoints, by getting the value 0.5 below the average and the value 0.5 above the average at alternating levels. In 3.0, the rule was you always got the value which was 0.5 below, as the price of consistency.

Sorry for getting this wrong the first time!

Edit:
I have no idea what the 'add rule' to which you refer to is, but regarding fractions in 3.5 I quote the following from the SRD:

SRD wrote:

In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.

Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.

The Exchange

kikai13 wrote:

Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5?

Those little descriptors next to the posters names say a lot about the posters. It seems to me that many of the 4ed defenders only recently showed up on these boards, and many of them weren't Paizo customers.

Is there a site somewhere that is telling folks, "They're not jumping on the 4ed bandwagon over there at Paizo. Get over there and change their minds!"

Uh, I have an FLGS. I buy everything I can from there. I have the whole Pathfinder series plus two players guides. I have about 6 or 8 map packs. I have a big stack of equipment cards and a campaign journal. I have at least 6 Gamemastery mods.

I support Paizo in a big way - bigger than you may know.

Scarab Sages

I guess I'll do like I did with 3.0 and take a wait and see approach. Having played each version as it came out(basic, advanced, 2nd editiion, etc), I don't like what I've heard about so far with the 4.0 game and will stay 3.5 for the mean time. The group I play with played the 2nd edition until almost 2003 and made the switch then so I'll probably buy the core books like others have said to see what they've done but will still play 3.5 for a while.


IF Paizo stays with 3e, they'll get my business, if they move to 4e, they will not. And I don't even play 3e. One thing people tend to forget, with a 3.5 module, I can, without much work at all, play it in a 3.0, 3.5, 1e, 2e, Basic, C&C, Hackmaster, or True 20 game. What with all the shifting, teleporting, healing surge, 98 hit points at first level crap, that will not be true of 4e. So players of at least 8 different systems can still give Paizo their business if they remain with 3.5, not so if they switch.


Lilith wrote:
Callum wrote:
I actually said "finished galleys", meaning galley proofs - which Bill Slavicsek had said they were looking at in the Wizards' offices.
My apologies then.

That's quite all right, Lilith - I should have realised that it's not a very common term and explained myself better!


kikai13 wrote:

Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5?

Those little descriptors next to the posters names say a lot about the posters. It seems to me that many of the 4ed defenders only recently showed up on these boards, and many of them weren't Paizo customers.

Is there a site somewhere that is telling folks, "They're not jumping on the 4ed bandwagon over there at Paizo. Get over there and change their minds!"

I've been an infrequent poster on these boards for several years, I buy every Pathfinder and Gamemastery module from the FLGS, and I plan to go to 4e.


JRR wrote:
IF Paizo stays with 3e, they'll get my business, if they move to 4e, they will not. And I don't even play 3e. One thing people tend to forget, with a 3.5 module, I can, without much work at all, play it in a 3.0, 3.5, 1e, 2e, Basic, C&C, Hackmaster, or True 20 game. What with all the shifting, teleporting, healing surge, 98 hit points at first level crap, that will not be true of 4e. So players of at least 8 different systems can still give Paizo their business if they remain with 3.5, not so if they switch.

That's actually a very, very good point!


kikai13 wrote:
Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5.

Well, some of us do subscribe to everything and definitely plan to unsubscribe when the switch is made.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)


Vic Wertz wrote:

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)

NOOOO!!!!

Stupid black magic resurrection rituals didn't work!

*sigh*

Back to the books. I'll conquer Spain yet.


Vic Wertz wrote:

Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)

Some of the great battles of our time are fought with love Vic. :D

You might need a DnD Insider ID to see this. Call it an 'Inconvenient Kindness'

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Vic Wertz wrote:
Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

WAIT!!! You haven't been "given" the licence/rules. Does that mean that Bullman stole them? Or did JJ sneak into WotCHQ when everyone was off at XP and swipe a copy?

Sovereign Court

Legal always takes longer then anyone plans for or wants. "Lawyer" should be a template in the MM. Oh wait, they already have "Vampire".


Pete Apple wrote:
Legal always takes longer then anyone plans for or wants. "Lawyer" should be a template in the MM. Oh wait, they already have "Vampire".

Now that's just an insult to Vampire's is what that is.


In reponse to the original question...I intend to continue with 3.5.

This weekend I went to the D&D Experience and tried out 4E in both the Delve and one of the preview adventures, "Escape from Sembia."

Admittedly, I am not excited about 4E. That being said, I did my best to leave my bias at the door and judge the game on its own merits.

While there are bits and pieces of 4E that I intend to salt into my own campaign, my experience only confirmed that I will stay with 3.5. It's not that what I saw is "bad" when compared to 3.5. Indeed, those I played with where clearly excited by the new options and mechanics. I enjoyed playing the game for its own sake, just not as much as I enjoyed previous editions.

4E just didn't give me what I am looking for in D+D in particular, and RPGs in general. It's too Hong Kong style cinematic and super heroic for my taste. The scales seem to be weighted heavily in the PCs favor. I had trouble with suspension of disbelief. I prefer a more gritty and realistic edge to my game. I like that you have to be lucky and clever to survive at low levels. I like to feel challenged and threatened by my foes.

I love Paizo's products and Golarion. If Paizo goes 4E, I'm not sure what I will do. I suppose it will depend on the balance of crunch versus fluff. I get ideas from both though and sincerely hope that Paizo continues with 3.5.

Sovereign Court

Erik Mona wrote:

Folks,

The clock is ticking, and we still have not seen a copy of the new Fourth Edition rules, nor have we seen a draft of the new SRD. I hear conflicting things from WotC as to when (or even whether) third-party publishers will be provided the rules in time to have 4e-compatible products for next Gen Con. I have spoken before (at length) about the uncomfortable position in which this places Paizo, but I remain hopeful that we will get to look at the rules during the playtest phase and plan accordingly. This was, after all, how things worked for trusted publishers during the 2.0/3.0 transition, so I have every reason to believe that the business folks at WotC understand the benefits of third-party support when it comes to converting their audience. But still we wait.

As it stands there remains a chance that Paizo will not convert to 4.0 next year, mostly because we will not have the materials in hand with enough time to do so. The only viable option, at that point, is to stick with 3.5 for the time being. This opens the option of producing an improved "3.75" somewhere down the road to address a few commonly acknowledged problems with the rules without throwing out the three decades of tradition that have kept D&D, fundamentally, the same game since the very beginnig. At that point, it seems, Paizo would be producing a "Pathfinder" RPG that would be wholly independent of Dungeons & Dragons and Hasbro's plans. Such a plan carries with it considerable risk, but it may be the only serious option available to us for 2008.

Beyond that, it's difficult to say. If Fourth Edition is awesome and if the OGL for the game does not tie our hands creatively or financially, we'll certainly strongly consider converting, and again I'd really like to see the material in time to judge whether or not it's a good game that our audience will like. But we've already passed the deadline for August solicitations in the book trade, and at a certain point the window for us to have Fourth Edition material at launch will close....

Please stay 3.5 I love you modules and AP's but so far what I and my group has seen of 4E is not good and none of them want to invest in 4E.

I have so much 3.5 it will be years before I HAVE to change.
If Paizo goes 4E I will have to cancel my Pathfinder and Pathfinder Companion subscriptions -( I can't afford to put money in a system I am not using).

Liberty's Edge

It would seem that many (myself included) are sticking with Piazo regardless of the system used. Ive recently purchaced the first three Pathfinder: Rise of the RuneLords books and was a subscriber the the Dungeon mags... Piazo never fails to impress! 3.5 is the system my players and myself are most comfortable with but we will adapt if neccessary. Either way Piazo were with ya!
Attic

Dark Archive

Aristodeimos wrote:
kikai13 wrote:
Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5.
Well, some of us do subscribe to everything and definitely plan to unsubscribe when the switch is made.

Oh ya? Well some of us plan to subscribe to everything if they do stick with 3.5 or a variant.


Alex Draconis wrote:
Aristodeimos wrote:
kikai13 wrote:
Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that a majority of posters over on the Gut Check thread that say they will stop purchasing Paizo products if Paizo doesn't convert to 4ed aren't subscribers? Or that the majority of subscribers want Paizo to stay 3.5.
Well, some of us do subscribe to everything and definitely plan to unsubscribe when the switch is made.

Oh ya? Well some of us plan to subscribe to everything if they do stick with 3.5 or a variant.

And some of us plan to subscribe to everything if they go with 4E! The possibilities man! :)

Liberty's Edge

Alex Draconis wrote:


Oh ya? Well some of us plan to subscribe to everything if they do stick with 3.5 or a variant.

They're producing 3.5 now. Subscribing now shows that you're interested in their 3.5 products. Waiting until they make an announcement makes it more likely they'll choose 4.0 because they don't realize the true support 3.5 has.

So, if you want Paizo to go 3.5, and you plan to subscribe if they do, subscribe now. Let them know that you will cancel your subscription if they go 4.0 (so they can make an informed decision), but please, support them while they're producing the products you WANT.

The Exchange

Vic Wertz wrote:

Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)

*From the back seat*

Is it there yet?


I will certainly keep my three subscriptions going for as long as Paizo continues with 3.5.

I may end up buying 4Ed in 2010 or so, but I will not get pathfinder to go with it.

I like consistency. I am a bit funny about what I own needing to have clear categories. It would be jarring and uncomfortable to me to have pathfinder stuff for two editions.

I only own 3.5 stuff, and not a lot of that. I have looked at about forty 3.5 books, and only bought the core 3, plus the other monster manuals and the spell compendium, so my investment is nowhere near as deep as some of the other posters here.

Golarion makes a lot of sense to me. It is the sort of world I would try to make.

What I have seen of 4Ed from the experience handouts shows me that the internal consistency and flavour has been gutted to make a more Pc game and Mini game compatable, twitch ADHD D&D.

I half expect the announcement of Advanced D&D again.

The Exchange

Fake Healer wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)

*From the back seat*

Is it there yet?

Is it there yet?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Fake Healer wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

Update: Paizo still has not been given the GSL or the rules.

(And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.)

*From the back seat*

Is it there yet?

Is it there yet?

Not yet. Don't make me pull over. You really should have gone to the restroom before you got in the car.


I have really enjoyed the Pathfinder stuff you guys have put out and I can't wait for next installments, but if Paizo stops producing 3.5 edition stuff I will have to stop my subscriptions. :-(


Okay, I'm pro 4-E and, just to get it out of the way, if Paizo doesn't support the system somehow then I will still subscribe because I love the work, though it MIGHT temporarily have to fall by the wayside as initial book buying takes place. Eh, doesn't matter, though. I'm just one person and I certainly won't hold it against anyone.

But, from a 4E fan's perspective, not having the GSL ready yet is really a major slip up. It's taken WotC so long, you have to wonder if there's any value in paying $5000 for rules that you can't really use (before GenCon, I mean) in time?

It's looking like the smart thing to do is to stand pat and see how it all pans out and jump on the bandwagon after the GSL is released to everyone--for free and initial reactions out of the way. I hate to say that, but there's only so long a company can wait without hurting their upcoming products and putting their deadlines in danger. So, s%&#. :/


I am still torn between the two choices. Granted it looks like combat got overhauled but D&D is not about combat to me it is about the setting and the interaction with it.

This aside though if/when Pazio gets the GSL to look over and makes their decision will it be a full conversion to 4e if you decide to go that way or will you try the water with a few modules or even the AP? I understand the strains this may put on editing and everything because you would have to know the rules for both editions. Just my 2cp thanks for listening.


Terry Dyer wrote:

I am still torn between the two choices. Granted it looks like combat got overhauled but D&D is not about combat to me it is about the setting and the interaction with it.

This aside though if/when Pazio gets the GSL to look over and makes their decision will it be a full conversion to 4e if you decide to go that way or will you try the water with a few modules or even the AP? I understand the strains this may put on editing and everything because you would have to know the rules for both editions. Just my 2cp thanks for listening.

I think a few Paizo employees have indicated its essentially one system or the other. The general feeling has been that Paizo just doesn't have the capacity to do both 3.5 and 4E. So I think they're going to jumping into whichever system they choose with both feet, but then I could be wrong!

Cheers! :)


I get the feeling WotC is deliberately holding back the GSL so that when companies finally do get it, they'll be so backed into a corner that they'll have to decide *instantly* whether to sign up or not, in order to get any 4e products out in time for GenCon. That way many companies may sign up in a panic, without having time to assess the terms of the license and decide whether it's really in their best interests or not.

"Here's the license. Are you in or out? FIVE... FOUR... THREE..."


David Marks wrote:
I think a few Paizo employees have indicated its essentially one system or the other. The general feeling has been that Paizo just doesn't have the capacity to do both 3.5 and 4E. So I think they're going to jumping into whichever system they choose with both feet, but then I could be wrong!

Bah. What if Bill Gates had said in 1978, "but we just don't have the resources to develop both BASIC and DOS. We'd have to hire more people and I don't have any room left in my garage. And this Windows idea? That's crazy talk!"

Time to cowboy up! John Wayne wouldn't have fretted about how tough he had it. He would have developed 3.5 and 4e products and STILL found time to rescue Jeffrey Hunter's sister from the Comanches.


Andrew Crossett wrote:
David Marks wrote:
I think a few Paizo employees have indicated its essentially one system or the other. The general feeling has been that Paizo just doesn't have the capacity to do both 3.5 and 4E. So I think they're going to jumping into whichever system they choose with both feet, but then I could be wrong!

Bah. What if Bill Gates had said in 1978, "but we just don't have the resources to develop both BASIC and DOS. We'd have to hire more people and I don't have any room left in my garage. And this Windows idea? That's crazy talk!"

Time to cowboy up! John Wayne wouldn't have fretted about how tough he had it. He would have developed 3.5 and 4e products and STILL found time to rescue Jeffrey Hunter's sister from the Comanches.

what your not looking at is lose of sales.lets say they print 300 3.5 books and then 300 4e books and sale 150 each. thats 300 books not being sold . thats a big loss for a small company. now u take that across the board. say 600 or 5 or 6 products you'll selling half. but with two times the expense of just one system. so if they just made one system and sold half they still be more profit then selling two systems and selling the same amount.

thats my thoughts anyhow


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Andrew Crossett wrote:
David Marks wrote:
I think a few Paizo employees have indicated its essentially one system or the other. The general feeling has been that Paizo just doesn't have the capacity to do both 3.5 and 4E. So I think they're going to jumping into whichever system they choose with both feet, but then I could be wrong!

Bah. What if Bill Gates had said in 1978, "but we just don't have the resources to develop both BASIC and DOS. We'd have to hire more people and I don't have any room left in my garage. And this Windows idea? That's crazy talk!"

Time to cowboy up! John Wayne wouldn't have fretted about how tough he had it. He would have developed 3.5 and 4e products and STILL found time to rescue Jeffrey Hunter's sister from the Comanches.

what your not looking at is lose of sales.lets say they print 300 3.5 books and then 300 4e books and sale 150 each. thats 300 books not being sold . thats a big loss for a small company. now u take that across the board. say 600 or 5 or 6 products you'll selling half. but with two times the expense of just one system. so if they just made one system and sold half they still be more profit then selling two systems and selling the same amount.

thats my thoughts anyhow

I'd like to see two lines as much as the next poster, but I think seeker has the rights of it. Twice as much work to maintain close to the same level they're at now. Better to lose off most of whichever side they don't choose, would be my instinct. Still, here's hoping no one has to be disappointed (especially me!) :)


The thing is, with the advent of PDF publishing, one line could be relegated to "electronic format only" and assigned entirely - or primarily - to freelancers (though this would probably have to be the 3.x line, given familiarity + the $5K "buy-in" to see 4E before the official release date).
Paizo could, essentially, do editing and layout for one line while producing the other.
Unless they're an even smaller company than I realized?

Dark Archive

Andrew Crossett wrote:

I get the feeling WotC is deliberately holding back the GSL so that when companies finally do get it, they'll be so backed into a corner that they'll have to decide *instantly* whether to sign up or not, in order to get any 4e products out in time for GenCon. That way many companies may sign up in a panic, without having time to assess the terms of the license and decide whether it's really in their best interests or not.

"Here's the license. Are you in or out? FIVE... FOUR... THREE..."

The impression I get from people who have been to D&D XP is that the WotC people there were genuinely upset that they haven't been able to get the GSL out yet.

Of course WotC is not a monolithic entity so its possible people further up the chain are withholding the GSL and misleading their employees as well as everybody else. I just don't think its likely.


I'd have no problem buying post 3.5 Pathfinder, if the 3.5 stat blocks could be made available somewhere (or at least referenced back to 3.5 sources). We're all grown up here and can make the games work, but a helping hand on the crunch is all I'd need to be kept on board.


All will be assimilated! Resistance is Futile. Send all of your money to Paizo!


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

what your not looking at is lose of sales.lets say they print 300 3.5 books and then 300 4e books and sale 150 each. thats 300 books not being sold . thats a big loss for a small company. now u take that across the board. say 600 or 5 or 6 products you'll selling half. but with two times the expense of just one system. so if they just made one system and sold half they still be more profit then selling two systems and selling the same amount.

thats my thoughts anyhow

I'm not advising them to double their product volume by matching every 3.5 product with a 4e one. I'm talking about putting out a few 4e products...relatively inexpensive ones like 32-page modules...and seeing how they do. If they do well, make more. If they don't, stop.

There's a huge split coming in the D&D community. There are two strategies a company can use to try and maintain or grow profitability in this environment:

A. Become a leading 3.5 niche company, facing a smaller market (3.5 loyalists), but potentially getting a much larger share of that pool, since you're no longer competing with the 8,000-pound gorilla for the same gamer dollars, or

B. Play both sides of the fence, on the grounds that "modest 3.5 profit" + "modest 4e profit" = "pretty good total profit"... and being in position to jump entirely to one edition or the other in the event one of the two markets implodes.

....both of which are better than:

C. Go completely with 4e, going after the scraps left by a company that holds 90%+ of the market share, and doing so completely on terms dictated by your huge corporate-backed competitor.

...and noting that if 4e fails to impress Hasbro by making up for the large number of 3.5 loyalists they're losing, the board of directors will kill D&D...and the GSL...and all the licensees relying 100% on the GSL for their business. And that assumes the GSL *doesn't* contain terms that allows it to be terminated if Hasbro thinks a licensee is starting to impinge too much on its market share or make their own products look inferior by comparison.

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