4.0: PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED


4th Edition

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Erik Mona wrote:

I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off. I still don't think that's how it will shake down in the final analysis, but that's how it seems to be happening with a certain subset of the audience presently, and a lot of that subset seem to be current Paizo customers.

Business is fun!

It seems to me that "Fourth Edition Rules, Third Edition Feel" may be a nice market to go after in this situation. :)

-The Gneech

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Erik Mona wrote:
and a lot of that subset seem to be current Paizo customers.

Frankly, you're customers seem to be getting more and more loyal by the day. Count me among them. I wasn't planning on picking up 4E before. After teasers they released lately (R&C and the video), I no longer even consider myself a consumer of WotC products. (For the record, I thought the gnome was great, but they made him a joke. Bad WotC.)

If Paizo goes 4E (ever), I will only buy what I need (hopefully just the PH/MM/DMG, and only buying them used) to play a pathfinder game and nothing more from WotC.

I am constantly reminded of a quote from Monte Cooke, about his ICE days.

Monte wrote:
TSR and D&D certainly weren't the competition. In the late 80s/early 90s, ICE and other "second-tier" companies like GDW, Steve Jackson, and West End fed off the scraps that TSR left behind, and were happy to do so. Almost without exception, every member of our various audiences was a former D&D player. That person left D&D looking for something simpler, something more complicated, or something different, and all the second tier companies offered the customer their various options.

So if Paizo goes it alone, you go from a 3rd party company to a 2nd Tier. You guys move up a number.


I love the stuff Paizo puts out. It's super-high quality stuff, and an excellent value for my gaming dollar.

But the day Paizo's products aren't usable with the current version of D&D is the day I bid a sad farewell, and stop buying. As it is, I'm almost certainly not going to buy Crimson Throne, even though I love Rise of the Runelords and am running two concurrent campaigns of it.

The reason for this is because, at our current rate, both of my play groups will have just finished Runelords when 4e comes out. Runelords will be our swan song campaign for 3.5, because we're all switching over right away.

I really, really hope that I can buy Paizo products for 4e, because if I can't, I'm sure I'll be missing some good stuff. But I don't have time to do conversions, so I'm not going to buy anything for 3.5 after 4e is out.

If timing is the problem, that's ok. I don't need a Gencon '08 release of 4e Paizo product. Just take whatever time you need to get 4e stuff together, and I swear I'll come back and buy it when it's ready, if it's up to the current standards. I'm sure a lot of the more, umm, enthusiastic 4e-haters on this board will buy enough stuff in the meantime to keep the lights on at Paizo.

Thanks for listening.
Jason


Jason_CA wrote:

I love the stuff Paizo puts out. It's super-high quality stuff, and an excellent value for my gaming dollar.

But the day Paizo's products aren't usable with the current version of D&D is the day I bid a sad farewell, and stop buying. As it is, I'm almost certainly not going to buy Crimson Throne, even though I love Rise of the Runelords and am running two concurrent campaigns of it.

The reason for this is because, at our current rate, both of my play groups will have just finished Runelords when 4e comes out. Runelords will be our swan song campaign for 3.5, because we're all switching over right away.

I really, really hope that I can buy Paizo products for 4e, because if I can't, I'm sure I'll be missing some good stuff. But I don't have time to do conversions, so I'm not going to buy anything for 3.5 after 4e is out.

If timing is the problem, that's ok. I don't need a Gencon '08 release of 4e Paizo product. Just take whatever time you need to get 4e stuff together, and I swear I'll come back and buy it when it's ready, if it's up to the current standards. I'm sure a lot of the more, umm, enthusiastic 4e-haters on this board will buy enough stuff in the meantime to keep the lights on at Paizo.

Thanks for listening.
Jason

I continue to find it fascinating that the more "reasoned and open-minded" opinions of the pro-4e camp continue to label those who are against or aren't sold on 4e (for a wide range of reasons) as "4e-haters". Grognard gets thrown around a lot as well. The quest many of the pro-4e camp seems to be on to "convert" the "haters" is also interesting.

It's like watching the Political Correctness crowd pat themselves on the back for being so open-minded and accepting and then rip someone apart because they hold a different viewpoint. If only the barbarians could see how enlightened and correct they are...

If you like how 4e is shaping up. Good for you. Some of us don't, the feeling is being reinforced regularly by what we're seeing and hearing out of WotC, and we're also entitled to our opinions, which are just as valid as those of the pro-4e camp. Maybe if the pro-4e camp hadn't dismissed so many of us by saying "you'll all end up converting anyway" and "every company will adopt 4e, it's inevitable", we wouldn't feel the need to express the dissenting opinion with the frequency or passion you're seeing.

(Sorry to single out your post, Jason. It's just it's the 4th one I've read in under an hour that includes the "4e-hater" tag.)

FYI, I HATE Political Correctness. I DISLIKE what I've seen of 4e thus far. I'm DISGUSTED by WotC's handling of the 4e PR. I LOVE what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder and I APPRECIATE the courtesy and respect that they show their customers.

And in the spirit of poking Political Correctness in the eye with a longsword:

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone! [Pro- and Anti-4e fans alike...
... but not to WotC! ;) Ok, them too.]


You know, given what I've seen of 4E and the reactions to it...

IF it fails, it will be for one reason only:

NOBODY agrees on what they're doing right, or wrong.
They post one little tidbit, half the people out there say "That's the best idea ever!" and half say: "That's ****'in STUPID, you're making a crap!"
They post another tidbit and get the same responses - from different people

A few common points make MOST "Good Idea/Bad Idea" threads, but not enough to show that they are - or are NOT - on either the path to RPG Nirvanna OR the Road to Ruin.
But definitely enough to get gamers firmly on one side or the other, ripping apart what is already a small and fragmented subset of society...

Maybe instead of 4e, they should call it Dungeons & Dragons: The Bickering


CEBrown wrote:

You know, given what I've seen of 4E and the reactions to it...

Maybe instead of 4e, they should call it Dungeons & Dragons: The Bickering

That is awesome, thank you.

Sczarni

CEBrown wrote:

NOBODY agrees on what they're doing right, or wrong.

They post one little tidbit, half the people out there say "That's the best idea ever!" and half say: "That's ****'in STUPID, you're making a crap!"
They post another tidbit and get the same responses - from different people

A few common points make MOST "Good Idea/Bad Idea" threads, but not enough to show that they are - or are NOT - on either the path to RPG Nirvanna OR the Road to Ruin.
But definitely enough to get gamers firmly on one side or the other, ripping apart what is already a small and fragmented subset of society...

Maybe instead of 4e, they should call it Dungeons & Dragons: The Bickering

yet all of these people are happily playing 3.x therefore this proves that 4.0 is too limited in scope, and 3.x is better overall system *ducks from flying fruit*


BPorter wrote:
(Sorry to single out your post, Jason. It's just it's the 4th one I've read in under an hour that includes the "4e-hater" tag.)

Well, I'm sorry you don't like the tag, but I don't see how anybody can claim that some, even many, of the posts in this thread are NOT filled with hate for 4e. Maybe you're not in that group of haters, but it's pretty obvious to me that there is such a group, and that they are very vocal.

I personally could give a rat's ass if anybody else converts to 4e or not. I don't care what you do at your table. But I'm converting, and I predict most players and almost all 3rd-party companies will too. You don't have to like hearing people make that prediction, any more than I like the way some people are talking about WotC around here.

My point was simply this: I hope Paizo converts to 4e, because I like their stuff and want to keep buying it, and I won't be buying 3.5 once 4e is out. That's all. You do what you want.

Jason

Jon Brazer Enterprises

BPorter wrote:
If you like how 4e is shaping up. Good for you.

QFT. Marketting asside, I recognize that 4E just isn't my cup of tea. So I have nothing against those that think it sounds great. I WANTED to love it, but it just doesn't sound like a game I want to call D&D. Call it Quest of the Legends or some other name, and I'd be there.

And WotC call those of us that like the current edition idiots.

EDIT: Anyone that wants to come up with their own 3.75 is welcome to use Quest of the Legends.


I just collected my copy of Pathfinder #4 from my local games store yesterday. Barring the unlikely event of Mike McArtor not having known what he was writing about, if Paizo does go 4th edition then either Golarion or 4th edition is going to need adaptation.

Mike McArtor wrote:
Thaumaturgic Dragons: Easily the most powerful natural spellcasters among dragonkind, the eight breeds of this sept each represent one of the common schols of magic: abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation. Dragons of these breeds are universally neutral.

-Fortress of the Stone Giants, page 71

4th edition D & D has been announced as removing schools of magic from the game. As far as I can understand, this means that if Paizo go 4th edition, then they're going to have to find an excuse to wipe a sub-group of dragons who specialise in schools of magic from Golarion, find a replacement and logical set of 'eight' things for them to suddenly specialise in instead, or retain schools of magic for the setting, at least for these dragons.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

CEBrown wrote:
Maybe instead of 4e, they should call it Dungeons & Dragons: The Bickering

I still like D&D: The Search For More Money.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:
Maybe instead of 4e, they should call it Dungeons & Dragons: The Bickering
I still like D&D: The Search For More Money.

Nah - that would fit better for D&D3...

:D

BTW, I do not hate 4E; first, it doesn't exist yet, so it's impossible to really HATE it.
Second - I think it WILL be a good game. 3E is. It's far from my favorite game, and it feels nothing like the Dungeons & Dragons I grew up with, and I suspect 4E will feel even less like it.
I do think it will be a good game. I don't think it will be one I want to have a lot to do with, however.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

CEBrown wrote:

Nah - that would fit better for D&D3...

:D

If you thought 3E was bad, wait until you see 4E.

EDIT: No, I am not a pessimist; I'm just a Russian-wannabe.


That WotC hasn't sent off a copy of the 4e rules to Paizo says to me that they do not plan to facilitate Paizo competing with them in any way whatsoever, even though it would probably be to their benefit to do so. The rules must surely be cemented in place at this point, at least to the extent that they could share them with 2nd party companies who planned on bolstering the WotC 4e core product line with products of their own. This is surprising considering that WotC's own product releases for 4e are really not that far off themselves. I can understand Erik's trepidation about book trade deadlines and GENCON. His hands are pretty much being tied, as well as forced to seriously consider alternatives. Paizo need not(and should not) be as beggars at WotC's table.

4e looks to not even be remotely compatible with what has come before, and I won't even comment on the mutilation of the background fluff that looks to be the hallmark of this "much improved" and "better" edition. At least with 3.0 there was enough similarity that a conversion could be made without too much of a loss. With regards to 4e and WotC's target audience. I just don’t think they will be as successful as they think they will be at prying this new audience away from consoles like Wii, games like WoW, and other such things. The interest in D&D simply isn't strong among this new generation that has had so many other choices available to them for over a decade. WotC is coming very late to the table.

Yet, rather than pull along the old gamers with them into this new frontier, most everything WotC is doing seems aimed at leaving the older gamers behind. Being an older gamer, I have money of my own and do not have to beg my parents to buy me something, and I spend liberally on things that appeal to me. Pen & paper RPG games appeal to me, as I grew up with them. I’m not much of a fan of on-line games and console games(though PC game are another story). As it has been presented so far, 4e does not appeal to me. A Pathfinder 3.75 RPG set of books sounds VERY appealing to me, and if WotC continues to waffle on giving Paizo a copy of the 4e rules so they can make their own product plans in a realistic time frame, then I certainly hope they seriously consider doing their own thing. Keep making great products, as you ahve bee, and I(and others ) will continue to buy them.

*EDIT:* Also, I have found from personal experience that many in the gaming industry in particular have a very skewed interpretation of ethics and morals. Regarding the 4e-5e djinni back in the bottle thing and deciding on whether or not to convert to 4e, look to you own interests first. Make your choice soon, such that you will never have to be subject to such a problem to begin with. Regardless of how friendly you may think you are with contacts over at WotC, its best not to(even partially) put the future on your own company in their hands. I have seen first hand that people's ethics and morals become much more fluid when their own futures become involved, and nothing makes them more so than the all mighty dollar, which is THE bottom line. As you said yourself, when 5.0 comes around, and surely it will, those friendly folks you know as WotC now might not even still be there, or be in a position to make a decision that also benefits you. They might even have to look to their own interest before yours, and you wouldn’t blame them for doing so either I bet. Look to your own interests and your own future.

Liberty's Edge

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:

Nah - that would fit better for D&D3...

:D

If you thought 3E was bad, wait until you see 4E.

EDIT: No, I am not a pessimist; I'm just a Russian-wannabe.

In 3rd edition, you play D&D.

In 4th edition, D&D plays you.


Cebrion wrote:
The rules must surely be cemented in place at this point

AT LEAST those in the PHB, given the lead time on printing overseas (assuming they print in China), they'd HAVE to be done at about Dec. 1, 2007 or sooner or they won't be seeing print.


I've pretty much decided that I will stick with Pathfinder through Curse of the Crimson Throne, but if Second Darkness is a Third Edition Adventure Path I'm going to have to get off the train then.

I expect Fourth Edition to suit me very well, and since I'm not sure that I will ever get to use Curse of the Crimson Throne as written, I'm not prepared to buy into yet another campaign's worth of material I'll either never directly use or have to convert.

Of course, it may not even be hard to convert Third Edition adventures to Fourth Edition! ;) That would be great, actually, because I do want to support Paizo. Very much.

I just can't say I'll do that if they "go 3.75".


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:

Nah - that would fit better for D&D3...

:D

If you thought 3E was bad, wait until you see 4E.

EDIT: No, I am not a pessimist; I'm just a Russian-wannabe.

Oh, I wasn't referring to the "profit grab" - was making a veiled Star Trek reference...

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Dungeons & Dragons III: The Search for Money.

Dark Archive

Christopher Adams wrote:

I've pretty much decided that I will stick with Pathfinder through Curse of the Crimson Throne, but if Second Darkness is a Third Edition Adventure Path I'm going to have to get off the train then.

I expect Fourth Edition to suit me very well, and since I'm not sure that I will ever get to use Curse of the Crimson Throne as written, I'm not prepared to buy into yet another campaign's worth of material I'll either never directly use or have to convert.

Of course, it may not even be hard to convert Third Edition adventures to Fourth Edition! ;) That would be great, actually, because I do want to support Paizo. Very much.

I just can't say I'll do that if they "go 3.75".

The thing is for every player saying I'll step of the boat if it's 3.5 there is certainly a player saying he'll step of the boat if it's 4E. For example I myself am not interested in 4E and will not change immediately.

Maybe one day but not right now, the soonest that I'll look into 4E is when my current campaigns end and I've gone through all my 3E adventures. 4E is too miniature focused for my taste.

It's probably not about change or don't change, it's about when to change.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

DeadDMWalking wrote:


In 3rd edition, you play D&D.

In 4th edition, D&D plays you.

No no no...

In 3.x, you role saving throws
In 4.x, saving throws roll you!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

CEBrown wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:

Nah - that would fit better for D&D3...

:D

If you thought 3E was bad, wait until you see 4E.

EDIT: No, I am not a pessimist; I'm just a Russian-wannabe.

Oh, I wasn't referring to the "profit grab" - was making a veiled Star Trek reference...

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
Dungeons & Dragons III: The Search for Money.

you forgot Spaceballs II: The Quest for more money!

The Exchange

I think it is incredibly unlikely that Paizo won't go 4E.


Eric Tillemans wrote:
Actually, I believe WotC has stated they will be core PHB released each year.

No, they have not. All the available info says that each year WotC will release supplemental core books. E.g., PHB2, DMG2, MM2.


Erik Mona wrote:
I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off.

I would recommend Paizo not be swayed by a vocal minority.

Scarab Sages

Eric Tillemans wrote:
Actually, I believe WotC has stated they will be core PHB released each year.
buzz wrote:
No, they have not. All the available info says that each year WotC will release supplemental core books. E.g., PHB2, DMG2, MM2.

Nothing in there says anything about "supplemental" but if you want to split the hair that finely, that's cool. It's still going to be considered core by WotC.


Some interesting polls at EN World kinda point at a split 3.X / 4th edition market. Being that EN World is allegedly "the home" for 4th edition enthusiasts, I find the results to be bad news for WotC...

Poll 1: What are you going to do with your 3E crap?
What crap? I'm still going to be playing 3E..not converting: 32.56%
Sell most of it: 6.20%
Sell a little of it: 4.26%
Sell none of it, just put it in storage forever: 12.79%
Keep it and think I'll reference it like that 2E stuff: 44.96%
Throw it in the trash: 3.10%
Give it away/donate it: 8.91%
OTHER: 11.24%

Close to 33% of their potential market NOT switching sounds pretty bad to me.

Poll 2: What Are You Going To Do With the Money You're Not Spending on New WotC 3.X products?
Buy 4.X WotC Products: 45.83%
Buy Used or non-New Released 3.X WotC Products: 20.83%
Buy 4.X 3rd party products: 16.67%
Buy 3.X 3rd party products (that includes 3.75 products): 25.00%
Buy Other RPGs: 33.33%
Have More Spending Room in Your Budget: 16.67%
Buy OotS Products: 8.33%
Other (list below): 25.00%

Decent numbers on those who plan to spend their money on old 3.X books, buy new 3.X books and (what I feared) on other RPG systems. I think 4th edition will push a good deal of D&D players to other games.

Liberty's Edge

buzz wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off.
I would recommend Paizo not be swayed by a vocal minority.

The big problem is that it is impossible to tell if it is a vocal minority or not. Paizo is a smaller company than WotC, sure. That's obvious. And they're much smaller than Hasbro. They're a tiny fish in the 'toy & game' pond.

Now, that doesn't mean they're not successful. You don't always have to be the largest to do well. And the reason they've been successful is that, even though they don't have the majority of players, they've been doing a good job of consistently providing those players the materials that they want.

If most of their existing customers remain with 3.x, regardless of what the majority of players do, it may make sense to continue to support them. The argument that they MAY catch a larger section of the market if they switch is fraught with peril. How many of the 4th edition players 'only buy official products from WotC'? I'd guess a large amount.

What it comes down to, as a business, you usually want to focus on keeping the customers you have. If you can do that, then you focus on getting new ones. In my particular line of business, we consider the acquisition of a new customer to be approximately 5x more expensive than maintaining an existing customer from year to year. So, even if there is a much larger potential market, we'll never 'fire our customers' in pursuit of new ones. It doesn't make sense for us, and I can't imagine it does in this industry, either.

Of course, WotC seems convinced that this course of action does make sense for them. I hope that Paizo can make a decision that will work to keep them making wonderful products. But of course, for entirely selfish reasons, I hope those products remain 3.x.

Scarab Sages

Erik Mona wrote:
I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off.
buzz wrote:
I would recommend Paizo not be swayed by a vocal minority.

Then how would you suggest knowing the thoughts of the silent majority (and majority only in that they are silent - not that they all agree one way or another)?

The people who don't care enough one way or another to be bothered to voice their opinion will follow whatever group they are a part of, and nothing is likely to sway that. Honestly, inertia is a powerful force. 4e hasn't been able to build up much, while 3.5 has lots of it. If Paizo were to stay 3.5 they would definitely lose people to 4th edition, but how many? If they stay 3.5 then there is that huge inertia working in their favour that will catch the 3.5 enthusiasts as well as those who aren't interested in switching systems - which I think is going to be much larger this time than during the 2e-3e change.

I think it would be worthwhile for Paizo to wait *at least* six months (not that they have much option if the SRD is much longer in coming) to see how many people adopt the new system and how much of a demand there still is for their 3.5 products. They can always "reissue" the 3.5 material with 4.0 rules (or it might be 4.12 rules by then) if they feel the market demands it. But if they commit to 4.0 at this point then they really are at the mercy of Wizards of the Coast - and we've seen how they treat their business friends.

Dark Archive

buzz wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off.
I would recommend Paizo not be swayed by a vocal minority.

Vocal, as in known, devoted, passionated, interested, positive, and creative?

Or silent as in unknown, and thus quite possibly fickle, uncaring, whiny, unproductive?

Let Paizo do what's one of the company strenghts: listen to its customer base, and take into serious account those opinions.
I really don't care about 4E anylonger, but I wish Paizo the best, and I hope that the company as a whole will keep the guidelines that made it so great for its fanbase, switch to 4E or not.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Erik Mona wrote:
I would classify that as a major concern. Of course, if the audience responds negatively to 4.0 all bets are off.
buzz wrote:
I would recommend Paizo not be swayed by a vocal minority.

Paizo has access to info that most don't. Specificly sales figures. If sales of non-edition proof pathfinder/GMM products plummet, its a reasonable guess that 4E is soaring and they're working the wrong horse. If pathfinder/GMM sales increase after 4E's launch, that would be some telling information.

Also they have access to a SMALL amount of WotC's sales figures. Specificly those they sell off their own website. If they fly like hotcakes, .... If they can't give those books away ....

Trust Paizo will make the best decision. I will be sad if the decision to abandon 3.5 does infact happen, but I will understand.


Whether Paizo converts or not (my expectation is that they will), I hope Second Darkness will be 3.5. If I remember correctly this will close the current exploration into Varsia and it would be nice to keep them all within the same game system. Maybe by the time they revist the region, the current issues will be out of print and they will be ready to update them to 4.0.

Currently I have no strong preference, since I am finding myself without a gaming group and without time to start one. I was starting to reel things back to core 3.5 rules anyway which I don't see a lot of problem with. But if they player base expands for 4.0, I'm all for it.


Given that my group is barely into "Age of Worms" and "Savage Tide" I see no reason for us to upgrade in the near future.

Realistically, between 1E/2E/3E/OGL,Pathfinder, and Dungeon, I have more adventures than I could ever hope to run in this lifetime.

But I still buy new modules, magazines and settings.

Even if I don't get to play them,they're still worth my time and money as an entertaining read!

So,as long as that is the case, I'll stick with "Pathfinder". (Though I prefer to see it stay 3.x, if it goes 4E, I can easily "backwards convert".)


I'm thinking the best bet is to write it as absolutely generic as possible - then insert insert the stats for whichever game seems to be doing better first, and maybe release another version with the other set of stats a month or so later.
Cover all bases that way, with minimal extra effort...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm excited by 4e--so much so that I have suspended purchases and stopped play of D&D until the 4th edition is released. I've got other things to do in the meantime, like learning C# better. I'll probably make a clean break, sell my 3.5 stuff, and start fresh when 4e arrives. And I figure I'm probably in the minority.

So what is the best route for Paizo to go? I'd say keep the current Pathfinder world/campaign as a v3.x game, and create an entirely new campaign for 4e. This way they can overlap has needed. Both camps will have something they want to buy from Paizo.

Too much work? I don't know. But they would probably have more fun designing and feel less locked in, especially as those creative juices begin flow for 4e. Support both during the transition...why not?


Christopher Richardson wrote:
So what is the best route for Paizo to go? I'd say keep the current Pathfinder world/campaign as a v3.x game, and create an entirely new campaign for 4e.

This sounds like a great idea if it's feasible. (And it would give the Paizo folks time to play with the new edition before diving in with writing a campaign setting that can adequately service it.)


Christopher Richardson wrote:
So what is the best route for Paizo to go? I'd say keep the current Pathfinder world/campaign as a v3.x game, and create an entirely new campaign for 4e. This way they can overlap has needed. Both camps will have something they want to buy from Paizo.

Golarion's GameMastery and Pathfinder books remaining 3rd edition and a brand-new 4th edition campaign setting being created would be super cool and the ideal solution.

Theres either not enough people to do the work or not enough new employees Paizo can hire and trust with the writing quality. Otherise they would just do that.


Pathfinder & GameMastery Modules Subscriber here...

I do not plan to adopt 4E out of the gate (if at all).

I have shelves and shelves of 3.x material, and have no plans to buy another FRCS, ECS, Complete XXXX series, etc., etc. Still stinging a little bit from the rapid 3.5 release (& feeling a little betrayed) and having to "rebuy" FR material, and other books.

I really like the material that Paizo is putting out (in term of Pathfinder, GameMastery Modules, as well as the new Campaign world). I like the dual release of print and PDF for subscribers.

I especially like the level of customer service and partnership with the community that Paizo embodies. It stands in stark contrast to the cold impersonal manner in which WOTC has treated the community, killing the print Dragon & Dungeon magazines so they could launch their DI effort under that banner. I have no interest in the DI effort either. There voiced effort to attract a "new" audience seems rather insulting to the "current" customer base.

I would be interested in Paizo releasing some sort of 3.75, that fixes some of the bugs in 3.x, but still remaining true to that body of material.

As many have said, the mere fact that Erik and other Paizo folks reach out to their customer base shows that they genuinely care about D&D, it players, and the future of both, in a way that WOTC does not seem to "get" anymore.

-Sakkara


I won't be drinking the 4E Kool-Aid. My current plans are to collect the 3.5 books that I didn't buy the first time around (the Complete series, Players Handbook II, Rules Compendium, some FR books). I would definitely be interested in purchasing any new quality 3.5 or 3.75 products that Paizo (or any other third party publisher) wants to sell me.


Is WOTC still clininging to the delusion that the PHB/DMG are coming out in June??? If so, I find it rather telling that no one has really seen it yet, least of all freelance writers/developers...


Ebolav wrote:
Is WOTC still clininging to the delusion that the PHB/DMG are coming out in June??? If so, I find it rather telling that no one has really seen it yet, least of all freelance writers/developers...

Last I heard, they were planning to release copies to a select group of developers around March (as well as the SRD) - with the three books coming out one a month starting a month later so there'd be time for DMs to be ready to run games in 4E at Origins and GenCon.

Depending on how much Hasbro's willing to bank on the franchise for, this may or may not be realistic (though, from what I've been hearing, the books WILL be out on time, but DI won't be ready).


Thanks for the info CE....from a business standpoint this seems foolish due to production schedules....it would be like software developers getting the devkits for a new game console only a few months before launch-not enough time to work with!!! If there's not enough supplemental 4th ed content this summer, few people are going to buy it.

Not that I care too much, since I'm sticking with whatever paizo does...

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

At the risk of creating even more headaches...

I am an avid RPG player, but my RPG budget is limited. I have just enough cash in my RPG budget that I could pick up a Pathfinder subscription if I wanted it. However, I don't get to GM that often, so I have no reason to purchase adventures. Instead, I spend my cash on another WotC supplement every few months.

However, if my GM were to start running Pathfinder adventures that used a 3.75 rule system, I would then spend some of my money on Paizo 3.75 supplements instead of WotC 4.0 supplements. Even though I wouldn't sign up for Pathfinder as a result of 3.75, I would still become a regular Paizo customer.

How representative is that story of non-GM gamers? I have no idea. But the folks at Paizo might want to consider that when contemplating the possibility of moving towards 3.75 rules. How many non-adventure buyers would start buying Paizo 3.75 supplements if their GMs were to switch to 3.75 adventures?

Then again, perhaps Paizo should test the waters first. Release a single Beta version 3.75 Core Rulebook. Include 3.75 stats alongside 4e stats in the latest Pathfinder adventure path. If the market seems uninterested, drop the 3.75 idea and stick with 4e. If the market shows interest in the Beta rules, further develop 3.75, possibly dropping 4e altogether, possibly keeping it as one of two supported systems.


Not to sound harsh, but as soon as Paizo goes 4E, I'm terminating all subsciptions. It's not cuz 4e sucks, it's not cuz Paizo will suddenly write poor material, it's simply because I've spent to much money on 3rd edition to just suddenly switch. The kind of money I've spent need to support me for at least another ten years. Then I might look into what edition they're at then.

Besides, at the moment my bookshelf won't hold a complete set of new core rules and all future supplements. And I'm adamantly against selling my old books.


Lenarior wrote:

Not to sound harsh, but as soon as Paizo goes 4E, I'm terminating all subsciptions. It's not cuz 4e sucks, it's not cuz Paizo will suddenly write poor material, it's simply because I've spent to much money on 3rd edition to just suddenly switch. The kind of money I've spent need to support me for at least another ten years. Then I might look into what edition they're at then.

Besides, at the moment my bookshelf won't hold a complete set of new core rules and all future supplements. And I'm adamantly against selling my old books.

I kinda felt the same way with 2E -> 3E, but I had witnessed first hand *players* becoming unsatisfied with 2E. So the switch was ultimately easy. 3E -> 4E is much different, though. 3E is a very solid ruleset.

Does anyone see many *players* unhappy with 3.5, or is it mainly DMs who are short for time and/or frustrated with prep time?

Because I admit that DMing 3.5 can be challenging and time consuming (especially without published adventures), but I have an absolute blast *playing* 3.5.

Dark Archive

All of my players seem to have a good time playing with the 3.5 rules system. There were no complaints at all, until one of them got the SW Saga rules--now he thinks we should combine some of the skills. I do spend a lot of time prepping for the games, but I don't mind the extra prep time. My position is that 3.5 IS a solid rules system, I understand the system, and it works well for me. I don't want to change again, especially when 3.5 is not broken.

The largest complaint for me is that without 4.0 looming out there, nobody was dissatisfied with 3.5. Now, it seems to me that the only people really excited about 4.0 are only excited about it because it is new. There are a few little things here and there that may be improvements, but I can see no real reason to switch.

Dark Archive

DaveMage wrote:

Does anyone see many *players* unhappy with 3.5, or is it mainly DMs who are short for time and/or frustrated with prep time?

Because I admit that DMing 3.5 can be challenging and time consuming (especially without published adventures), but I have an absolute blast *playing* 3.5.

I'm mostly happy with 3.5 right now, and the only 'prep time' problem I have is that *I* get bored with standard encounters and invariably add some class levels or templates somewhere, to jazz things up. If I used standard beasties from the book, my 'prep time' would consist of drawing up the encounter space and visualizing where I want the critters to stand, then flipping open the Monster Manual and running them right out of the book.

Since I do tend to modify them with templates and / or class levels, I usually jot down the modified critter on a stat card from Game Mechanics (free download, four fit on a page) and then fling it in one of those index-card-holder-boxes. That way, if I ever want to use a Shadow creature template Troll or Advanced Half-Red Dragon Wolf again, I can dig out the 'card' and use it again.

I could probably write up some of my standard go-to monsters on these cards as well and throw them in the file, but I just run them out of the book. I'm too lazy to spend that much time prepping. I usually think up the encounters at work and then put little pieces of paper on the relevant MM pages (and PHB pages for spells or class abilities I might need to look up in media res) while the players are sitting down and gabbing, so that I don't have to rummage through the book trying to find stuff while they are waiting. I've been known to choke under pressure, and I hate 'winging it,' so having everything 'bookmarked' makes my life easier. :)

Similarly, as a player, I like to use Monster Cards to deal with any Animal Companion / Familiar / Summoned critters I use. I hate making others wait on me, so I prefer to have my action planned out, spell looked up and / or critters pre-statted before my turn comes around.


DaveMage wrote:

Does anyone see many *players* unhappy with 3.5, or is it mainly DMs who are short for time and/or frustrated with prep time?

Because I admit that DMing 3.5 can be challenging and time consuming (especially without published adventures), but I have an absolute blast *playing* 3.5.

You know... I never thought of it but you may be on to something there...

I never even tried to get a 3e campaign going because of the level of work involved in writing up NPCs due to interaction of Feats, Skills and Class abilities, etc....

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps Subscriber

I think you have really hit the nail on the head. My game is not broken. I DM, and I like the prep. When I am short on time there is no shortage of quality pregenerated stuff to run my players through. So for WoTC to come out with a new game, with the same name as my game... It does not really affect me. I will not buy it anymore than I will buy the Warhammer RPG, or a World of Darkness product. I am sure they are great games, but my time/budget is limited and with what I have I choose to play 3.5. Not because it is the best. Not because 4.0 is terrible (I really do not know if it is or not, and I have no plans to find out). Not because it is perfect, but simply because it is what I like, and what my group likes and none of us feel any thing is so broken that we need to find a new game. I do not buy many RPG books anymore because I have so many. I buy Paizo because the quality is so good that even if I will not run it for years, I still want it about. If Paizo started a magazine for World of Darkness I would not buy it, in the same way that I would not buy a 4.0 exclusive magazine (but would be sad at the parting...). My hope is that Paizo will stick to 3.5.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

benjamin billings wrote:
...So for WoTC to come out with a new game, with the same name as my game... It does not really affect me. I will not buy it anymore than I will buy the Warhammer RPG, or a World of Darkness product. I am sure they are great games, but my time/budget is limited and with what I have I choose to play 3.5. ...

Bravo. You've done an outstanding job of articulating an opinion I think many of us share.


Erik, I think you've got it all wrong.

You wrangle with whether you should convert or not to 4th Edition. My question is: does it matter?

What does matter however in a good scenario is believe it or not....the scenario itself. So long as Paizo has good stories to tell who cares whether it's 3.5 or 4.0? What prevents you from publishing one set of stat block for 3.5 and another for 4.0?

Regardless of the switch to 4.0x, Paizo remains a powerhouse when it comes to idea generation with support skills second to none. You should relax.

I sincerely hope that 4.0 will bring a new batch of players because the game desperately need some. Furthermore, who can be against a faster and more streamlined gameplay? and let's face it, some sacred cow absolutely deserve to die (Vancian magic I am looking at you)

Are you afraid that 4th Edition will "dumb down" the game? I welcome as a DM an easier game to manage than 3.5 and yes I realize the improvements 3.5 made on 2.0 but I do not see why 3.5 should be considered as the pinnacle of evolution. And if you really want to fight the "dumbing down" of the game then come with clever, nuanced, adult and interesting scenario ideas. Given your track record, I am absolutely sure that it is exactly what you will do.

Best regards from a DM of 15 years

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