4.0: PAIZO IS STILL UNDECIDED


4th Edition

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Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Terry Dyer wrote:
Amber Scott wrote:
... Paizo could offer socks full of dirt for sale and I'd buy them.
O.O Do they do that? I'm so in.

Woo-hoo! And everyone else teased me for my RockSock™ idea! I've got two, count 'em, TWO buyers lined up!


Vic Wertz wrote:
Terry Dyer wrote:
Amber Scott wrote:
... Paizo could offer socks full of dirt for sale and I'd buy them.
O.O Do they do that? I'm so in.
Woo-hoo! And everyone else teased me for my RockSock™ idea! I've got two, count 'em, TWO buyers lined up!

You can make it a kit: Paizo supplies the socks and instructions, but we have to supply our own rock.


Well, I have rocks in my head, so why not having rocks in my socks?

New at Paizo, Rocks in Socks and Dirt in Socks! $29.99 + S & H per sock.

Liberty's Edge

So these socks you’re selling … are they printed with anything? Have they been worn by any of the Paizo staff or writers? (‘cos you could charge extra for that).

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Mothman wrote:
So these socks you’re selling … are they printed with anything? Have they been worn by any of the Paizo staff or writers? (‘cos you could charge extra for that).

I'll take autographed over worn, thank you.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
So these socks you’re selling … are they printed with anything? Have they been worn by any of the Paizo staff or writers? (‘cos you could charge extra for that).
I'll take autographed over worn, thank you.

And I say: "Why not both?"

Paizo Employee CEO

Chris Mortika wrote:

Y'know, one of the earliest publications I have is an issue of "White Wolf" magazine, in which Lisa Stevens responds to a Letter-to-the-Editor about being a little publisher in a sea of big publishers like White Wolf. And she gives the little publisher some good advice about sticking with a solid product and getting your name associated with quality.

That's still good advice, Lisa, even now, years after you gave it to Peter.

Wow! That brings back memories. I loved working on White Wolf Magazine, since it was the only truly independent magazine back in the late 80's. But you are correct, my advice would still be the same. :)

-Lisa


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Terry Dyer wrote:

The only problem I will really see is I know of at least three Gaming stores in different cities in Texas that after 4E drops they will not be carrying 3.x third party products because they did this when 3.5 dropped and lost big. So online will be my friend till at least August and maybe even later.

I live in an area few "Gaming Stores". I think I know of one... There was one that I had been to a few times, but they mysteriously vanished. The other one is a bit far from where I currently live, and I haven't been there in... quite some time.

This means that my "local gaming store" is either Borders or Barnes & Noble. They both have an abysmal selection (in fact, the Barnes & Nobel recently *reduced* shelf-space). I also know that Borders has issues with "version control" (when the PHB II came out, they stopped carrying the actually PHB because they thought it was a new edition). Add to this the fact that "third party" hardly even happens at the Big B Bookstores...

You say "online will be my friend"... Sometimes I feel like online is my only hope.

Dark Archive

Vic Wertz wrote:

As I've mentioned previously, we have come up with some clever solutions to allow us to postpone that decision.

Though we haven't yet been given the rules, we know some people who have had them for a while, so—should we decide to go 4E—we can enlist folks with 4E experience to help us along faster.

Also, just in the general process of things, we're nailing down the story first, and not worrying so much about the mechanics yet. (And when we do see 4E, this means we'll be able to decide pretty quickly whether or not the new rules will let us tell the story we want to tell.)

We'll tell you as soon as we can... and hopefully, that will be shortly after we get the rules.

While the story for Second Darkness looks -awesome-, I really can't justify paying $120 to read that story just for myself. So, since I won't be buying 4E, if Second Darkness is 4E, I won't buy it.

This has probably been mentioned several times already, but if you can justify the page count, including -both- rulesets seems like a nice option.

Scarab Sages

This may have been answered already, but are all the Pathfinder supplements currently listed for pre-order going to be 3.5?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

ehb1022 wrote:
This may have been answered already, but are all the Pathfinder supplements currently listed for pre-order going to be 3.5?

Everything due out before August is most assuredly 3.5 only. If it's due out in or after August, the edition has not been determined yet.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Any news with the OGL preview and all that?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Dreamweaver wrote:
Any news with the OGL preview and all that?

We still haven't been given the GSL or the rules to look at. And yet, if we wanted to be on schedule for Second Darkness... we should have had the first author start working on the first adventure on the first of January.


James Jacobs wrote:
Dreamweaver wrote:
Any news with the OGL preview and all that?
We still haven't been given the GSL or the rules to look at. And yet, if we wanted to be on schedule for Second Darkness... we should have had the first author start working on the first adventure on the first of January.

Did they happen to give you a better timeframe as when to expect it? Seems like they are leaving you guys, and anyone else willing to pony up the cash, swinging in the breeze, so to speak. I don't envy your decisions to come. Good luck!

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:


We still haven't been given the GSL or the rules to look at. And yet, if we wanted to be on schedule for Second Darkness... we should have had the first author start working on the first adventure on the first of January.

Thats what I was afraid of, thanks for the update.

Liberty's Edge

While I am still keenly interested to learn what format the 3rd AP will take, I'm more curious to know if it will be on schedule. I know you were able to make some 'adjustments' to delay a final decision, and I don't know how long you can continue to do this.

But, in your estimation, will you be able to publish it on schedule? Or will there be a gap between Pathfinder #12 and #13?


That sucks. As a publisher I would think that would be very frustrating and stressful. Keep your chins up guys. Maybe you could do some sort of one shot pathfinder after Crimson Throne ends that is mostly like a dragon mag with lots of cool articles, but holds off on starting a new AP a little longer, so that you have time to work things out.

James Jacobs wrote:
Dreamweaver wrote:
Any news with the OGL preview and all that?
We still haven't been given the GSL or the rules to look at. And yet, if we wanted to be on schedule for Second Darkness... we should have had the first author start working on the first adventure on the first of January.


I guess in regards to going 4E.

I could swing either way. I'm used to playing multiple game systems at the same time and granted not everyone is used to that set up, I know if you guys went 4E or stayed 3.5 OGL, you still got a consumer in me, simply because i feel pathfinder is one heck of a good adventure path.

Besides if you stay 3.5E (which i personally think is the best option at least until 4E becomes standard fare, so like a year after its release or whatever) I think it would be easier to convert from 3.5E to 4E than vice versa, given peoples familiarity with the 3.5 rules.

Although i'm looking forward to 4E quite a bit, i still plan on having 3.5 gaming sessions as well.

If anything 4E just gives me an excuse to make a new game world down the road with a bunch of random elements i've been kicking around for a while now.


James Jacobs wrote:
Dreamweaver wrote:
Any news with the OGL preview and all that?
We still haven't been given the GSL or the rules to look at. And yet, if we wanted to be on schedule for Second Darkness... we should have had the first author start working on the first adventure on the first of January.

At least Planet Stories isn't affected by what WotC does or doesn't do.

Have you guys set a drop dead date with regard to when Pathfinder 3 MUST be 3.5? (E.g., if you don't have the GSL/rules by March 1, is it definitely 3.5?) Or can you simply put it off for a couple more months before you have to decide?

I'm looking for a date to hang my hat on, so to speak.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

DaveMage wrote:
Have you guys set a drop dead date with regard to when Pathfinder 3 MUST be 3.5? (E.g., if you don't have the GSL/rules by March 1, is it definitely 3.5?) Or can you simply put it off for a couple more months before you have to decide?

Well we know that the Bullman is going to D&D XP so he might come back and say, "Our customers won't like these rules, we're sticking with 3.5 for AP3." (Hopeful!)


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Well we know that the Bullman is going to D&D XP so he might come back and say, "Our customers won't like these rules, we're sticking with 3.5 for AP3." (Hopeful!)

Thats it DMcCoy! I'm hoping for the exact opposite so that means only one thing!

Time for a hope-off! (tongue firmly in cheek here =P)


I believe James Jacobs said on the Pathfinder Chat last night that he would know which edition the third Pathfinder Adventure Path would be within a month. My assumption is that Jason's experiences from D & D XP will play a part in the decision making if the GSL/rules fail to show up before then, as will be the fact that the legal ramifications of signing up for 4E will still be unclear.

Liberty's Edge

Well, re-reading Erik's original post after all this time still says to me Paizo considers those not switching to be a valuable customer base. I wonder if anyone yet went through this thread and tallied up the percentages? How about the biggest thread on EN World right now, with over 6,000 hits called "Why I WON'T be switching to 4E".

I'm still hoping Paizo's research tells them there is a vibrant, $-supportive 3.5 community out there they could have all to themselves that would keep them alive and thriving.

-DM Jeff


DM Jeff wrote:

Well, re-reading Erik's original post after all this time still says to me Paizo considers those not switching to be a valuable customer base. I wonder if anyone yet went through this thread and tallied up the percentages? How about the biggest thread on EN World right now, with over 6,000 hits called "Why I WON'T be switching to 4E".

I'm still hoping Paizo's research tells them there is a vibrant, $-supportive 3.5 community out there they could have all to themselves that would keep them alive and thriving.

-DM Jeff

One of the problems with this from a publisher's perspective (I would guess, at any rate) is that what people say they will do and what they actually do are two (often *very* different) things. I'm not implying duplicity, merely that people often truly aren't great at predicting their own behavior, and even if they were, plans change. For the matter to be as simple as you suggest, they would have to know what people will *do* rather than what people think they will do.

In my opinion Paizo will end up switching...as I've said elsewhere, I believe there is ultimately too much value tied up in being "current" to overlook.

In any event, I do not envy Paizo's position right now...I hope WOTC gets off their behind and gets the GSL out there...

Dark Archive Contributor

JTStorm wrote:
Did they happen to give you a better timeframe as when to expect it? Seems like they are leaving you guys, and anyone else willing to pony up the cash, swinging in the breeze, so to speak. I don't envy your decisions to come. Good luck!

The same timeframe they've been telling us for several months now: "Soon."

*shrug*


DM Jeff wrote:
Well, re-reading Erik's original post after all this time still says to me Paizo considers those not switching to be a valuable customer base. I wonder if anyone yet went through this thread and tallied up the percentages? How about the biggest thread on EN World right now, with over 6,000 hits called "Why I WON'T be switching to 4E".-DM Jeff

I thought EN World was suppose to be pro 4th edition and that they got upset with folks posting anti-4th edition comments, is this incorrect?


bugleyman wrote:
One of the problems with this from a publisher's perspective (I would guess, at any rate) is that what people say they will do and what they actually do are two (often *very* different) things. I'm not implying duplicity, merely that people often truly aren't great at predicting their own behavior, and even if they were, plans change. For the matter to be as simple as you suggest, they would have to know what people will *do* rather than what people think they will do.

You are not the first to make this comment.

Why is it so hard to believe people who say they will not switch?
I dont plan of switching to 4th edition. I will keep on playing 3.5 until the unforseeable future.

There are tow popular excuses I see for people who seem to think that those that claim not to switch will eventually.

#1 - Gamers desire new books. They get that itch if we dont go out an buy new D&D books every month or two. If theres no more 3.5 books then these gamers will snap and scoop up 4th edition books.
If Paizo continues to leave Pathfinder and GameMastery 3.5 as it should then the people with no desire to switch really wont have a need to.

#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.
This is a very different situation. 2nd Edition was getting sagnant and 3rd edition is an improvement IMHO. Now however 3.5 still is alive and kicking when 4th was announced. Plus this is not an imporvment of the rules, its a re-writing of the rules.
Not to mention all the 3rd party books that have been released. Now there is so much 3 and 3.5 material out there there is really no worry about running out of material ever.


I am not as afraid of 4e as I used to be. Some designers I love and trust (and let me emphasize, I trust them very much) have said 4e is going to be able to do D&D. That makes me happier.

If paizo stays 3e I suspect I'll do almost no 4e. If Paizo goes 4e... sigh... I will too.

And people don't believe those who say they won't switch are right about their actions (as a movement) because there are always people who say that, yet Coke is still drunk in vast quantities, Revenge of the Sith was still a blockbuster, and every edition of D&D got a huge crowd behind it.

Yes this situation is different. They're all different. There are always hold-outs (see: Osric). But the new version of things generally wins out. Even New Coke isn't a counter-example, since they never went back to using real sugar, and their sales apparently increased over the old formula.


Jason Grubiak wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
One of the problems with this from a publisher's perspective (I would guess, at any rate) is that what people say they will do and what they actually do are two (often *very* different) things. I'm not implying duplicity, merely that people often truly aren't great at predicting their own behavior, and even if they were, plans change. For the matter to be as simple as you suggest, they would have to know what people will *do* rather than what people think they will do.

You are not the first to make this comment.

Why is it so hard to believe people who say they will not switch?
I dont plan of switching to 4th edition. I will keep on playing 3.5 until the unforseeable future.

There are tow popular excuses I see for people who seem to think that those that claim not to switch will eventually.

#1 - Gamers desire new books. They get that itch if we dont go out an buy new D&D books every month or two. If theres no more 3.5 books then these gamers will snap and scoop up 4th edition books.
If Paizo continues to leave Pathfinder and GameMastery 3.5 as it should then the people with no desire to switch really wont have a need to.

#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.
This is a very different situation. 2nd Edition was getting sagnant and 3rd edition is an improvement IMHO. Now however 3.5 still is alive and kicking when 4th was announced. Plus this is not an imporvment of the rules, its a re-writing of the rules.
Not to mention all the 3rd party books that have been released. Now there is so much 3 and 3.5 material out there there is really no worry about running out of material ever.

I'm not really trying to re-hash the whole debate...rather point out that the fact that there *is* a debate makes Paizo's life harder.

That people often say one thing and do another is a documented fact. Will it be the case this time? I don't think they can say for sure, which is part of what makes their decision so hard.

If you are honestly curious why *I* think most will eventually switch, I'd be happy to share my thoughts, but this thread probably isn't the place for it. :)


Jason Grubiak wrote:


You are not the first to make this comment.

Why is it so hard to believe people who say they will not switch?
I dont plan of switching to 4th edition. I will keep on playing 3.5 until the unforseeable future.

There are tow popular excuses I see for people who seem to think that those that claim not to switch will eventually.

#1 - Gamers desire new books. They get that itch if we dont go out an buy new D&D books every month or two. If theres no more 3.5 books then these gamers will snap and scoop up 4th edition books.
If Paizo continues to leave Pathfinder and GameMastery 3.5 as it should then the people with no desire to switch really wont have a need to.

#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.
This is a very different situation. 2nd Edition was getting sagnant and 3rd edition is an improvement IMHO. Now however 3.5 still is alive and kicking when 4th was announced. Plus this is not an imporvment of the rules, its a re-writing of the rules.
Not to mention all the 3rd party books that have been released. Now there is so much 3 and 3.5 material out there there is really no worry about running out of material ever.

On #1, I'm incredibly guilty. I have such a back log of gaming books, that I need to take a couple of weeks off and just read for 12 hours a day to catch up. However, moving to point #2, I have a lot of 3rd edition, and 3.5 books, but I also pick up a ton of 2nd edition, 1st edition, and OD&D books. I play Castles & Crusades regularly which is the rules set I would (and do) run the old edition material in. I also run 3rd edition (and play in 3rd edition) regularly, and I've plenty to keep me going there too.

There are a few things that I have admittedly like about 4th, but there's an immense amount that I've seen hinted at (and stated by the designers) that I don't like. With the amount of material I currently own, and my searches for used and new material on the internet, I am not itching to buy the new edition. As long as there are hundreds of older products to pique my interest i'm good on the front. I'm not saying I won't switch, i will eventually get around to picking up 4th. That said, I'm just getting around to picking up alot of 2nd edition Forgotten Realms material, so it may be 10 years from now.

The Exchange

bugleyman wrote:
That people often say one thing and do another is a documented fact.

Great example - McDonald's conducted a huge market research effort to find out if people would buy a low carb quarter pounder. In focus group after focus group customers assured McDonald's that this was a great idea and that they would definitely buy them. They went ahead and did a taste test and people said they liked it - and would buy them. The results were so universally positive that they skipped the test market and went right to a national release.

The low carb quarter pounder bombed. People just wanted there regular carb filled junk food but when they were asked if they wanted to eat healthier they all said they did.

Liberty's Edge

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
I thought EN World was suppose to be pro 4th edition and that they got upset with folks posting anti-4th edition comments, is this incorrect?

I thought so too, but a little poking around there has this one thread where anti-4e folks are posting why they are not switching and they don't get blasted for it...and it's the largest viewed 4e thread on the page. It seems some level of civility has returned there.

-DM Jeff


DM Jeff wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
I thought EN World was suppose to be pro 4th edition and that they got upset with folks posting anti-4th edition comments, is this incorrect?

I thought so too, but a little poking around there has this one thread where anti-4e folks are posting why they are not switching and they don't get blasted for it...and it's the largest viewed 4e thread on the page. It seems some level of civility has returned there.

-DM Jeff

WOTC anti-thread appear to generate a lot more traffic as well. I haven't been a consistent reader of them for a the past 2-3 months but I think more pro 4th edition posters are jumping in on the anti-threads. I could be wrong. As mentioned, I haven't been reading them frequently anymore and I stopped posting many months ago because of general rudeness of other posters.

Why do you think the anti-thread get more posts? Is it because it is human nature to see the worse in things or because people are disliking the idea of 4th edition so much, or because a lot of people don't like WOTC anymore, or some other reason?

The Exchange

I think it's just a part of the continum really. After a while, especially with the lack of any updates etc. the chatter has just died down in general. There really is not much to "talk about" at this point. As for why anti-4e threads get more hits/posts- I think that has more to do with human nature.

In my personal opinion, it seems from the regular gamers I know, that most people really dont care much that much one way or the other; it's only a game.

Also, its not just about a customer base, but also has to do with the product life cycle. 3.5 e is a mature product and as such, even if there is a fan base, the customer $$$ being spent will be a lot less in propotion. As such sticking to 3.5e poses a lot of other long term questions.


Is there any reason Paizo couldn't keep both segments of the audience happy by publishing 3.5 *and* 4e products? For example, keeping Pathfinder 3.5 but making GameMastery 4e? Or alternating GameMastery modules between 3.5 and 4e? Or even making a separate line of 4e modules?

It might seem awkward to have a single game world operating under 2 different rulesets, but then "world books" tend to be 95% fluff anyway and therefore rules-neutral. The "crunch" in such books should be minor enough that both 3.5 and 4e stat blocks could probably be provided.


No matter which direction Paizo goes, they are likely to lose customers either way.

I think that's the saddest part of it all.

The Exchange

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Is there any reason Paizo couldn't keep both segments of the audience happy by publishing 3.5 *and* 4e products? For example, keeping Pathfinder 3.5 but making GameMastery 4e? Or alternating GameMastery modules between 3.5 and 4e? Or even making a separate line of 4e modules?

It might seem awkward to have a single game world operating under 2 different rulesets, but then "world books" tend to be 95% fluff anyway and therefore rules-neutral. The "crunch" in such books should be minor enough that both 3.5 and 4e stat blocks could probably be provided.

I wouldn't do that exactly, but would consider two distinct product lines. This not only diversifies revenue streams but will also have two distinct audiences while maintaining both customer bases. However, I think that the plausability of this unltimately boils down to the GSL.

Dark Archive Contributor

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Is there any reason Paizo couldn't keep both segments of the audience happy by publishing 3.5 *and* 4e products?

That is an option we're looking at, yes. What is unclear to us at this point is whether the GSL will let us do that.


Mike McArtor wrote:
Andrew Crossett wrote:

Is there any reason Paizo couldn't keep both segments of the audience happy by publishing 3.5 *and* 4e products?

That is an option we're looking at, yes. What is unclear to us at this point is whether the GSL will let us do that.

I've seen this discussed in other threads. Wouldn't it be disadvantageous for WotC to put such language in the GSL? It seems to me that they would likely lose alot of 3rd party support if they tried and restrict product lines that third party publishers created. I understand the reasoning behind making compatible products require the core books they produce, and I understand why they want to limit derivative rules sets from coming out. But i don't understand this.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
but I think more pro 4th edition posters are jumping in on the anti-threads.

I poked around there a few days ago, just to see how good/bad the place has gotten. Most notable to me was a thread about how 4E sounds like Exalted. 3-5 months ago, when I made those comments, I was mercilessly shouted down. This thread, no one was shouting anyone down. A few people I remember being pro-4E tried to make a joke of the thread, but they didn't take. Hell, the jokes weren't even funny. Almost as if the pro crowd there is running low on steam.


Jason Grubiak wrote:


#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.

Its not those who said they'd never convert from 2E to 3E that makes me doubt people who claim they'll never play 4E. Its those who said they'd never convert from 3.0 to 3.5. Time was, you couldn't go onto a DnD message board without the wailing and gnashing of teeth at 3.5 being loud enough to convince you that 3.5 would be a dismal failure that no one would ever play. And yet, it came out and pretty much everyone plays it.

I suspect it'll be the same for 4E, but only time will tell.


One X-factor that was not present in any prior edition switch is the OGL/GSL.

3rd edition, and 3.5, were both created and distributed under the OGL.

4th edition will be under a new license. If the license is too restrictive, 3rd party companies may transplant would-be 4.0 players either to other systems or keep them playing 3.5.

And since it seems no one is left at WotC who is a champion of open gaming (at least, no one in a position to make a difference) it's likely the license will be too resrtictive to the tastes of at least some third party publishers.

And, should the DDI not meet expectations (and there has been no indication that it will up to this point), the fallout from that could also negatively impact 4E.

Fun times!

Dark Archive

David Marks wrote:
Jason Grubiak wrote:


#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.

Its not those who said they'd never convert from 2E to 3E that makes me doubt people who claim they'll never play 4E. Its those who said they'd never convert from 3.0 to 3.5. Time was, you couldn't go onto a DnD message board without the wailing and gnashing of teeth at 3.5 being loud enough to convince you that 3.5 would be a dismal failure that no one would ever play. And yet, it came out and pretty much everyone plays it.

I suspect it'll be the same for 4E, but only time will tell.

I loathe that argument. "X is the same as Y, this happens all the time."

Gee it's only a little rain it rains all the time.
Then a hurricane hits you with your pants down.


Alex Draconis wrote:
David Marks wrote:
Jason Grubiak wrote:


#2 - There were plenty of people who said they wouldnt convert from 2nd to 3rd edition and they did anyway.

Its not those who said they'd never convert from 2E to 3E that makes me doubt people who claim they'll never play 4E. Its those who said they'd never convert from 3.0 to 3.5. Time was, you couldn't go onto a DnD message board without the wailing and gnashing of teeth at 3.5 being loud enough to convince you that 3.5 would be a dismal failure that no one would ever play. And yet, it came out and pretty much everyone plays it.

I suspect it'll be the same for 4E, but only time will tell.

I loathe that argument. "X is the same as Y, this happens all the time."

Gee it's only a little rain it rains all the time.
Then a hurricane hits you with your pants down.

Well, really what is being argued here is "X has happened ever other time, so I think it will happen this time, too." No question it is inductive reasoning, and it I agree it doesn't *prove* anything.

I don't really understand how the rest of what you said is relevant to the question at hand.

And again, though I do happen to think most people will switch, I wasn't making that argument...I was pointing out that the schism between what people say they will do and what they actually end up doing means that Paizo's decision isn't as simple as counting posts in a messageboard thread (your loathing notwithstanding).


Alex Draconis wrote:


I loathe that argument. "X is the same as Y, this happens all the time."
Gee it's only a little rain it rains all the time.
Then a hurricane hits you with your pants down.

So I thought I was following the thread pretty well as the posts went along, not great but enough to keep up. Now I'm really confused though.

Why wouldn't you be wearing pants in a hurricane?


Lilith wrote:

No matter which direction Paizo goes, they are likely to lose customers either way.

I think that's the saddest part of it all.

Bingo...we (unfortunately) have a winner.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Crossett wrote:

Is there any reason Paizo couldn't keep both segments of the audience happy by publishing 3.5 *and* 4e products? For example, keeping Pathfinder 3.5 but making GameMastery 4e? Or alternating GameMastery modules between 3.5 and 4e? Or even making a separate line of 4e modules?

It might seem awkward to have a single game world operating under 2 different rulesets, but then "world books" tend to be 95% fluff anyway and therefore rules-neutral. The "crunch" in such books should be minor enough that both 3.5 and 4e stat blocks could probably be provided.

Having one campaign world with product split between 2 game systems could be very confusing for players and (even more so) for retailers, who may not necessarily be gamers themselves, but have to make ordering decisions on behalf of their potential customers.

But why be limited to one campaign world, anyway?
If 4E is markedly different in power level and tone, and/or PC abilities are difficult to compare or convert, then why not have a separate product line, set in a world that is built from the ground up to allow for and accomodate those type of PCs and that tone of game?

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