Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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How Did We Get into This?
Well, I won't belabor the obvious by telling you how electronic publishing works, and I won't waste your time by going into the details of why this new method of magazine delivery is better than shipping printed copies to postal mailboxes and retail outlets. We got into this as a natural outgrowth of the way most information reaches its audience nowadays: Practically every entertainment venue in the modern world now has an online component -- D&D and Dragon Magazine are no different, nor should they be. Nothing can take the place of playing the game around a table with your friends or flipping through the pages of a printed magazine article, and of course both of those activities will always be possible. At the same time, our ability to reach you through your computer -- and your ability to communicate with us, and with other players, the same way -- opens up possibilities that no one could have imagined in 1976.
Hi Kim,
Your editorial inspired me to go ahead and use "my computer" to contact you and see if we can open up a line of communication (lord knows that when Paizo ran the magazines, I could come use "my computer" to post here and get a response within a day or so - and that was before Dragon existed only in the ether, so I'm really looking forward to the level of responsiveness you're going to be bringing to the table).
I've got an idea. Why don't you go ahead and waste our time and tell us how your particular brand of electronic publishing works and why this method is better. It's not so obvious to me or many other people on these boards. And believe me, we've been waiting for nearly six months for an explanation. But, up until this point, all we've heard is "the electronic format will be so cool, you won't even miss the print magainze."
Well Kim, I hate to tell you this, but I do still miss the print magazine. And the electronic format? It looks like a cross between what used to be on your website for free and a lesser version of the high quality work the fine people at Paizo used to do minus the portability. So Kim, please, take a moment to go ahead and justify why this electronic format is so good. Tell me why the print publications had to die and why Erik Mona, James Jacobs, and all the other kick-ass editors here at Paizo (aka, the best thing that ever happened to the magazines) aren't producing those publications. Not so cool.
And one more thing. Take your swarmy attitude and strawman arguments (i.e. - you can still flip the pages of a printed magainze article) with you. You are not the conquering hero. You did not earn your position as the EIC of Dragon. You stole it from Erik Mona here at Paizo. And I for one want an explanation as to what makes you qualified to follow in his hallowed footsteps. Sorry Kim, the goodwill is gone. Anything you want, you're going to have to earn.
Way to get off on the wrong foot. I want my explanation Kim. Come on by Paizo, and let's hear your side of the story. I've given you six months to f@*~ around. Time's up. Pencils down.
Best regards,
Sebastian
P.S. As a final piece of editorial advice, the word "component" means part of a whole. Given that there is no part of Dragon outside of your electronic version, the word "component" isn't really applicable. Dragon and Dungeon had a perfectly servicable online component prior to your arrival - the supplements offered on this website and these boards. Also, you might want to look at Pathfinder and the Gamemastery modules. They include a true online component in the form of the pdf file that subscribers get. That's what I want Kim. Myself and the rest of the fans here at Paizo await your arrival in this modern world of electronic supplements. I'm not sure where the all-online cyber-reality is that you inhabit, but it's not something with which I am familiar.
*gives Sebastian a big 'ol hug*
*bakes him a double fudge chocolate cake with caramel filling and whipped buttercream frosting*
Hee hee - the "No, seriously, you do need to tell us" had me rolling.
Tips his hat to Sebastian for succinctly making the point regarding Dragon and Dungeon magazine's transmogrification for pretty much everyone and thier pet carnivorous hobbit.
Such a top-notch rant good sir, well-argued with just that touch of vituperation that makes it sting so good.
Good god. I even posted it on the WotC forums. I feel dirty.
Hangs his head in sympathy-shame.
You did not earn your position as the EIC of Dragon. ... And I for one want an explanation as to what makes you qualified to follow in (Erik Mona's) hallowed footsteps.
Your "letter" has merit and makes some good points, but I admit I was stunned to see Kim Mohan's name on this. He had a really good run as EIC of dragon in the past, and will likely do so again. It is strangely fitting that he see the magazine through another transition. I'm not subscribing to online dragon - and (probably) wouldn't even if Erik Mona were editor - and the editorial got me a bit riled, too ... but I do feel the magazine is in good hands.
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Good god. I even posted it on the WotC forums. I feel dirty.
And the only responses you've gotten there thus far are from die hard apologists. It's disgusting.
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Good god. I even posted it on the WotC forums. I feel dirty.And the only responses you've gotten there thus far are from die hard apologists. It's disgusting.
Where'd you post it at? I went looking.
Sebastian, that was an incredible piece of work you just laid on their electronic doorstep. I only hope I'm half that eloquent next week for the GREs. I salute you!
So Sebastian, are you figuring the thread just gets ignored, or that the Wizo's delete it?
*And I liked the comments about you flaming the WotC boards when you were merely quoting the editorial itself, lol
They didn't delete it yet. I'm under attack now.
Somebody said I speeky bad Enlishese.
Linkie Please! Can't find the thread!!!
Yeah. How am I supposed read Dragon sittin' on the can? :P
Sebastian--Well said, my friend. Kudos to you, sir.
I never would have read that bit if you hadn't posted it here, though. As far as I'm concerned there is no more Dragon Magazine or Dungeon Magazine. I refuse to pay them for the dubious privilege of looking at their website. When we bought those magazines in the past we got an actual *gasp* product for our money. It may be an economist's dream--almost zero costs and almost pure profit--but it is a gamer's nightmare.
Thank you for calling them out. And on their own website no less...sweet.
Well you have to admit you speeky bad Enlishese. Just like we Trolls smell ... ummm nevermind.
Well you have to admit you speeky bad Enlishese. Just like we Trolls smell ... ummm nevermind.
Oh, that comment made milk come out of my nose...
We love you Sebastian!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hey guys, thanks for all the support, particularly over in hostile territory (such as it is). I appreciate that you have my back. I wish I'd known Kim had been involved prior to my post - his run of Dragon was before my time. That doesn't really address my main beef, but it would have tempered my attack on his credentials.
I just wish someone over there would actually listen and post back for a change. That's all I want from WotC at this point - a post that treats me as an intelligent person with valid concerns and not just as a slavering dog willing to eat whatever table scraps the decide to toss in my direction. I want answers, to Dragon, to the reasons for the changes to the fluff, for their general direction with 4e.
If only they would just sit down and talk to us instead of puking out substanceless marketing lingo...
Yeah. How am I supposed read Dragon sittin' on the can? :P
Truer words were never spoken. You may be kidding, but bathroom reading time is my favorite time of the day, especially if the day is particularly stressful. I like my throne time, and there is no finer bathroom reading than a fresh copy of Dragon or Dungeon...I don't relish the thought of draggin my laptop into the can with me. Ugh.
Well you have to admit you speeky bad Enlishese. Just like we Trolls smell ... ummm nevermind.Oh, that comment made milk come out of my nose...
Thanks I hadn't made someone snarf in forever :)
Aside from myself that last time I was eating Elf liver and onions.
Thanks I hadn't made someone snarf in forever :)
Well, I was talking about the comment directed at Heathansson on the WotC site as well. (but, I'm glad to make your day!!) I find BakeryBoy's comment to be very out of place on a public board. For all he knows Heathy is from a small french village near the German border.
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Yeah, but all I said was, "hey, S-at night the iceweasels come."
Then this Bran McMuffin (wow he's stuck with that, isn't he--it wasn't funny the first time, dude) said I no speak good the English.
Just because I jack it up left and right on purpose, he's gotta try this little feeble punk shot and--irony of ironies--act out the meaning of my private joke.
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Thanks I hadn't made someone snarf in forever :)Well, I was talking about the comment directed at Heathenson on the WotC site as well. (but, I'm glad to make your day!!) I find BakeryBoy's comment to be very out of place on a public board. For all he knows Heathy is from a small french village near the German border.
oui, oui, mon cheri! ;)
(edit)I love France, and I apoligize if I've butchered your most excellent language in any way; I caint' to speak m'own s'dang good.
Heathy, don't sweat it. If he couldn't guess, too bad. You made your point perfectly clearly, and if you do that in a language then who cares? Proper English is for academia, so save it for that. Besides, what did it have to do with anything Sebastian said?
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Yeah, but all I said was, "hey, S-at night the iceweasels come."
Then this Bran McMuffin (wow he's stuck with that, isn't he--it wasn't funny the first time, dude) said I no speak good the English.
Just because I jack it up left and right on purpose, he's gotta try this little feeble punk shot and--irony of ironies--act out the meaning of my private joke.
Dude, Heahty, you should just kick his ass.
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I know, he's just trying to punk me so's I'll blow my stack and retaliate and get the thread shut down. I've seen it happen there before. It's a byproduct of too much moderation IMHO. You get the cunning brats who learn how to get the teacher mad at you, and they try to game you out.
Really great for a public discussion; the only thing that bothers me is Seb has a great point, and it will be like unto so much chum for the iceweasels over there.
Agreed WotC boards seem to only be around for some people to piss off other people who in retaliation then try to piss off someone else.
Secondly... ummmmmm ice weasels.... *now where did I put that net*
Kobold Press
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I just wish someone over there would actually listen and post back for a change. That's all I want from WotC at this point - a post that treats me as an intelligent person with valid concerns and not just as a slavering dog willing to eat whatever table scraps the decide to toss in my direction. I want answers, to Dragon, to the reasons for the changes to the fluff, for their general direction with 4e.
If only they would just sit down and talk to us instead of puking out substanceless marketing lingo...
I still know a few folks over there, though the majority of my peers are long gone from the WotC halls. I think the Hasbro machinery is fully in control. They sell into mass markets, they boost return to shareholders, and damn the hobby gamers if they can't keep up.
They aren't interested in a two-way conversation. That's not the goal at all. They're the authority, and you're supposed to get in line with that.
Which is a surprisingly effective attitude among younger gamers, but less so with the old guard.
Yeah, it is a different breed of animal, WoTC compared to Paizo.
Paizo is all warm and fuzzy. Quality material, and friendly people who seem to truly enjoy interacting with their fans/customers.
WoTC is a little more mechanical and distant, though there seems to be a serious effort on their part to do better. They own D&D (ie the game we all love), so they got that going for them too. Also they put out copius amounts of D&D stuff; invariably it his hit and miss . . .some of the stuff is not great, some of it is outstanding . . . I remain optimistic and hopeful that 4e and the eventual incarnation of the magazines will fall into this latter camp.
Then again I am a hopeless rogue . . .i mean idealist.
I still know a few folks over there, though the majority of my peers are long gone from the WotC halls. I think the Hasbro machinery is fully in control. They sell into mass markets, they boost return to shareholders, and damn the hobby gamers if they can't keep up.They aren't interested in a two-way conversation. That's not the goal at all. They're the authority, and you're supposed to get in line with that.
Which is a surprisingly effective attitude among younger gamers, but less so with the old guard.
Wolfgang -
Corporations used to understand that the mantra is supposed to be "customer is king" not "profit is king."
And sadly, despite the seemingly half-hearted efforts of gamer-zero and Scott Rouse, I do not see a two way conversation. I work in academia, and the WotC conversations smack of the sorts of communications the administration used to hand down to the students from on high. Sadly in that environment I knew how to cut through the red tape to get an answer.... I wish I did in this one, I hate to see them killing my favorite game to make a bigger profit from a different audience.
- Ashavan
On a completely unrelated note I signed up for Kobold Quarterly. If you need to reach me please send snail mail as I will henceforth be camped out near my mailbox . . . or your girlfriend's house. It is actually dependent on where YOU are.
Yes. I am riding the high of a 19 hour work day.
Good god. I even posted it on the WotC forums. I feel dirty.
Yeah, I did too. I hate posting on those forums. You could say "I think the sky is blue" over there and get flamed for it.
I think calling out Kim on his qualifications was a little out of line - but at the same time, he was an editor at Dragon an awfully long time ago. I'm not sure editing an electronic pseudo-magazine is really the same thing. I have great respect for Mr. Mohan's past work... but I am judging now on current work, and my respect is clouded right now with anger at the fact that I don't think he's actually read a single word of the frustration his readers are feeling right now. That's something he's had six months to do.
- Ashavan
Thanks for drawing my attention to the editorial, Sebastian. I rarely check out WotC because it makes me ill.
I own some of Mohan's work and have no complaints--he certainly has the qualifications. See Kim Mohan.
But it's really hard for a guy like Mohan to compete with guys who have this many GREAT writing credits. See James Jacobs and Eric Mona. (ED--and these guys are still in their prime...)
Nevertheless, I was a little surprised by Sebastian's remarks. However when I saw the following I started to feel the red rage rising within me, and now find Sebastian's remarks tame.
We got into this as a natural outgrowth of the way most information reaches its audience nowadays: Practically every entertainment venue in the modern world now has an online component
Yes, they have an online component, but there is still more (most of the) information in the paper and video components of those who publish online AND off. If what he is saying is true, why don't they just publish the rulebooks in digital only formats?
Nothing can take the place of playing the game around a table with your friends or flipping through the pages of a printed magazine article, and of course both of those activities will always be possible.
Huh? So you ARE going to have a printed version, Kim? Or am I supposed ot use my printer with 50 dollar ink cartridges?
They have all shared the same goal: To do the best possible job of giving the readers what they want
And as Kim says, the goal is still the same.... ????? REALLY? What do we want Kim?
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Hey guys, thanks for all the support, particularly over in hostile territory (such as it is). I appreciate that you have my back. I wish I'd known Kim had been involved prior to my post - his run of Dragon was before my time. That doesn't really address my main beef, but it would have tempered my attack on his credentials.
I just wish someone over there would actually listen and post back for a change. That's all I want from WotC at this point - a post that treats me as an intelligent person with valid concerns and not just as a slavering dog willing to eat whatever table scraps the decide to toss in my direction. I want answers, to Dragon, to the reasons for the changes to the fluff, for their general direction with 4e.
If only they would just sit down and talk to us instead of puking out substanceless marketing lingo...
Sebastion, you do realize that someone official WILL respond to your thread at WOTC, but only after the rabid fanboi response will have obscured your point enough that they can safely make an uninformative, innocuous response that dodges your concerns completely. Its actually something of an art form.
As for feeling bad about questioning Mohan's credentials, don't. His credentials would get some respect from me if he were taking over the print format of the magazine, as that is where his experience lies. However, looking at the crappy quality of the pdf articles (no margins, divided pictures, no watermarks or backgrounds, etc...), I think it clear that little thought was given to the quality of the new electronic format. In fact, I would hazard a guess that the attitude at Hasbro was "well, we already release online supplements, so this is really the same thing". Unfortunately, an online magazine does not consist of an unformatted HTML file.
I think that Wotc may have some problems pulling in folks for their online subscription unless they radically improve the offering.
As I sit here and ponder this heated issue the following occurs to me.
Why not make an online mag, then sell it AGAIN in a paper format by collecting together all of the well-received contributions. Meaning WotC, every year or six months, takes everything that wasn't crap, and issues it in a thick softbound BEST OF.
Hmmm. I Wonder if they'll do that? The guys who pay for DI can pay twice, and they can still get money from dudes like me, who won't pay.
As I sit here and ponder this heated issue the following occurs to me.
Why not make an online mag, then sell it AGAIN in a paper format by collecting together all of the well-received contributions. Meaning WotC, every year or six months, takes everything that wasn't crap, and issues it in a thick softbound BEST OF.
Hmmm. I Wonder if they'll do that? The guys who pay for DI can pay twice, and they can still get money from dudes like me, who won't pay.
Now THAT I might buy.
However, looking at the crappy quality of the pdf articles (no margins, divided pictures, no watermarks or backgrounds, etc...), I think it clear that little thought was given to the quality of the new electronic format. In fact, I would hazard a guess that the attitude at Hasbro was "well, we already release online supplements, so this is really the same thing". Unfortunately, an online magazine does not consist of an unformatted HTML file.
I have no problem with the rest of the concerns raised here, but to be true I am a bit tired of seeing this one.
Please people read what they wrote . . . AT THE END OF THE MONTH they will format everything and compile it into a PDF. I am sure that it will be watermarked and pretty. The stuff we are seeing currently are articles that may or may not make the cut into the finalized and gathered PDF format.
So while you may be underwhelmed with, say, the quality of the articles thus far, please understand that it is highl LIKELY the finalized version, the ACTUAL ISSUE will be much prettier.
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Now THAT I might buy.As I sit here and ponder this heated issue the following occurs to me.
Why not make an online mag, then sell it AGAIN in a paper format by collecting together all of the well-received contributions. Meaning WotC, every year or six months, takes everything that wasn't crap, and issues it in a thick softbound BEST OF.
Hmmm. I Wonder if they'll do that? The guys who pay for DI can pay twice, and they can still get money from dudes like me, who won't pay.
*shifty eyes* Excuse me, Mr. Kruelaid I need you to come with me. Yes sir we recently heard you had a decent idea and we can't let radicals like you threaten our plans. So if you could just step in here and...
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I have to say that I will probably go with 4e: PHB, MM, DMG, Psionics, FRCS. End.
As for D&D Insider ... the ONLY thing that would draw me to it at this point is (1) whether Dungeon is any good ... and lives up past the dying hype that we are now facing with Dragon's "release", and (2) whether Paizo goes 4e.
I certainly support Paizo and love their product line, as well as their customer-friendly service. GRAND. I suspect that Paizo will move with 4e and suspect that negotiations are already in the works. I just hope my suspicions are right.
But even if they are wrong and Paizo doesn't, I remain torn.
From what I understand, particularly with reference to Star Wars Saga Edition, D&D will be getting a definite and healthy shot in the arm with 4e. Ref/Fort/Will 'Defenses', simplified Skills, and Talent Trees are all good things, IMO.
The issue will be - if Paizo doesn't progress - how readily will I be able to upgrade Paizo threats to 4e threats.