FR goes back to first edition. The grey box was released in 1987. Just FYI. :)
I devoured the boxed set in 1987. I loved the transparent hex overlays. I photocopied the maps at my weekend security guard gig while I was still in college and promptly populated the Sword Coast as my own. I ran FR for 15 years straight and I don't think my campaign ever roamed farther than a few hundred miles from Waterdeep.
I'd give anything to bring back that kind of excitement and that kind of enthusiasm.
I bought the FRCS 3.0 in 2004 when I first decided to restart D&D after a 2 year lay off. I was in love with the setting all over again, but when my players wanted to start playing right away, I went back to Greyhawk because even after 18 years of not having run GH, it was still as familiar as if I had just stopped running it yesterday. Now I also run and like Eberron. Guess I'm just too easy to please, but FR getting the first 4th edition treatment has me very excited. Not as excited as if GH had gotten a renewal first, but very close.
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umm.. could someone modify this post to put a "spoilers" tag on it? All this FR-plot stuff is something I'm not really into, granted, but all this "Blackstaff's dead" and "Halaster's dead" stuff caught me unaware as I have not read or played the Shadowdale book. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. The irresponsible posters made no warning that spoilers were ahead, so if a Mod. could do it for the thread, that would be nice.
My mistake on my initial post on Halaster and Sylune, and I appologize.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
A YEAR? wow, I'm more out of touch with FR than even I thought... or did I just forget, with all the other craziness going on... trudges off to do some cursory re-reading...
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I have played the Forgotten Realms for 20 years - as a DM and a player. If you are running into epic level characters all the time I think that somehting is going on with your DM. In all that time I have never run into any of those epic characters. I often think maybe I should bring one in briefly or some such but I have my own NPCs the group interacts with from time to time.
I would say that WoTC says the realms is the most popular campaign setting because of its sales numbers not any other reason.
Does anyone remember this poll from last March?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/archives/pollWhat sYourFavoriteCampaignSetting
It showed Forgotten Realms far ahead of any other setting except Greyhawk. And being it was on this board - with a lot of Dungeon Magazine influenced people the high numbers of people loving Greyhawk may not be indicative of the hobby at large.
Bottom line is it's a business and a game. What sells gets more attention by the game developers.
Even though I have gamed for a long time. About 25 years or more now... I have not really played Greyhawk much. Early on we played some of thoe B modules and such. Not paying much attention to the setting. It was not until the Forgotten Realms that the setting and the larger world began to enter into the game. I do like the history and the amount of material available in the realms. I have recently spent a lot of time and money tracking down supplements that I never did get back in the day. Now, I own almost everything ever produced for the realms, Greyhawk, Ravenloft and some other settings. I even have picked up quite a bit of third party materials.
When you think about it though. How much does all of this information really effect the adventuring party as they go into Thar and save the scions of the leaders of Melvaunt from the Orcs. Do they really care about Elminster in Cormyr finding another one of his daughters?
As for the whole thing about the books and their Toril shattering effects... Ignore them. Heck - place your party in any time you want. In the original Myth Drannor or 20 years ago before any those wild events happened. You are the DM make the world your own - bring in Elminster, Drizzt, and all the others or not. Have Avatars shake the world or it never happened. Or it happened in the distant past or it doesn't matter... Just play the game and enjoy it to its fullest. Make it exciting and fun, inventive and twisted...
Have fun...
First things first.
Blackdragon. Calling me an eberron(sic) person to my face would likely end up with one of us seriously hurt, that's really how much I detest that setting. I agree that it seems like they are shoving it down my throat as well but also mind you while I am ambivilous towards FR as a setting (It's just not my style) I feel as if it too is being crammed down my throat.
And then
Wormysqueue and Shem. Thanks that's what I wanted to know. What are other peoples take on what they see played all the time. I'm not talking about what people like, but what they actually play. I've taken part in over a dozen DnD campaigns with just as many DM's across the last decade and never once has one been in FR, and not that I'm so opposed to one it's just never happened or been approached. However, many of the players I gamed with, loved the FR setting, but just for reading the books. I can understand this because DnD isn't even my favorite roleplaying game, hell it doesn't even make the top 5. Yet I can't get a group of people together to play anything besides it so I game what I can(I move too much as do those around me... so goes the military life). Getting together with a group of people having a good time is what I'm there for anyways. Hell in ten years all I can find is a bunch of 9th graders jumping up and down about the new release of 8th edition and the new core eberron setting then I will have to choke down that silty chalky taste in the back of my throat and just game on.
So that is point of my whole initial tirade. I want to know what you as individuals see played, not what people like but what they actually sit down and play. I don't care how much you think the setting blah blahblahblah is the greatest setting ever imagined or how much all the other game systems are for gumbies who can't recognize how much they suck. I'm not curious what your opinion is, I couldn't care less. I play what I play and spend my money on what I want and don't give a crap what you think of it and in all sincerity expect the same from me to you. I want to know your perspective. What people actually play as you have seen it over the last several years. When you walk into a game store and look at the bulletin board for DMs or gamers wanted; what games and settings are being asked for? On the weekly/monthly game schedule spot what's actually up there and what do people really show up for or are juiced about and anticipating? I want the sate of gaming as you see it through your eyes. Any attempts at objectivity would always be appreciated.
Mathew morris- as much as I think who ever put marshmallows into ice cream is a pure genious somehow when it's compared to eberron(oh it's one b) I just can't help but think someone added barbeque sauce to my serving of it. I have a sensitive stomach. :)
Wild magic and dead magic are cool.
So are portals.
And Dracoliches.
And Red Wizards.
And Waterdeep.
And the rest.
My personal experience has been to have run into one person that DMed Greyhawk, a friend of mine back in high school, who ran about 25% of the sessions we played back then. If my own experience counts for anything, I've run into DragonLance DMs, Dark Sun DMs, Planescape DMs, other Forgotten Realms DMs, and a lot of homebrew DMs. In fact, in my own experience, homebrew DMs are a lot more common in my area, but oddly, I've not run into a Greyhawk DM for a LONG time . . . but I don't think this is automatically indicative of the overall gaming community.
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Mathew morris- as much as I think who ever put marshmallows into ice cream is a pure genious somehow when it's compared to eberron(oh it's one b) I just can't help but think someone added barbeque sauce to my serving of it. I have a sensitive stomach. :)
It's also a captial M on Morris ;-)
Because we rotate DMs I've been lucky enough to play in Eberron, Faerun, Realms, and home brew and enjoyed all 4.
Eberron: I like the intrigue, the fact that you can have powerful figures hiring the party for the simple reason that they're like those prepay cell phones, disposable and untraceable after you're done with them. The Mourining is like Ravenloft without the entrapment effect. It can and does scare the snot out of players. Also it is like a fresh gaping wound. Faerun's Helmlands should be similar, but they're often ignored.
Forgotten Realms: It's the one I know the most about, at least pre-3E. The original link between Aber-Toril and Earth always intrigued me, and helped to explain the hodge podge of cultures. I also like the ancient history of the Realms, and how it can still pop up now and again. Of late it's been blown up too much, and never elaborated on. Is Cyric still giving spells to Lerian clerics? Is for Duty and Deity still canon? No details on the new Blackstaff, or the result of Khelben's sacrifice? How in the hells did Bane come back anyway? Are Kelemvor and Mystra off probation?
Greyhawk: I can thank Paizo and One of our player/DMs for reintroducing me to Greyhawk. Because it's been abandoned so long (I'm not part of the RPGA, just wish I could have their stuff) and because Tony knows more about it than I do about the Realms, playing in Greyhawk is a rich involved experience for me.
Home brew: covers either a simple night of blowing stuff up, running goodman modules in a row, or trying to make my own home world. I like the break from the rich history to just 'save the girl, kill the creature.'
When it comes to Eberron, Realms, and Greyhawk; Eberron is the new girl who gets the shiny gifts, Forgotten Realms is the old girlfriend with two black eyes who can't walk away, and Greyhawk is the girl WotC knocked up but doesn't call or write anymore.
Home brew: covers either a simple night of blowing stuff up, running goodman modules in a row, or trying to make my own home world. I like the break from the rich history to just 'save the girl, kill the creature.'
Take the treasure. Can't ever forget take the treasure.
When it comes to Eberron, Realms, and Greyhawk;Eberron is the new girl who gets the shiny gifts, Forgotten Realms is the old girlfriend with two black eyes who can't walk away, and Greyhawk is the girl WotC knocked up but doesn't call or write anymore.
That does seem about the gist of it. I like your analogies. Even better than mine. Certainly funnier.
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Ok, that it, Gloves off! I am so f!#ging sick of Eberron people trashing FR! You want to talk about having s#!t shoved down your throat! Eberron is mediocre at best. I bought it, I used a small part of it, but for the most part it was pure crap! Wizards scrapped several good setting to put all their eggs in one basket with Eberron and they have been stuffing it down our throats ever since! Epic level characters everywhere? Gods walking the land? World shaking Stories? Sounds like good gaming to me. Not lightning trains and Dragon Marks.
Talk to me when Eberron novels make the NY Times best sellers list, because as I see it, FR is one of the reasons D&D survived long enough and had enough money to take a monster risk on a setting like Eberron. If you don't like FR, then do what I do with Eberron stuff... Don't by the goddamned thing! But the market has spoken and Fr is still selling, like it or not.
I actually like both settings. They are quite different in tone, but FR has been around for decades and Eberron barely predates 3.5E, so they will have different accumulated lore. I think how you feel about particular settings is much more a question of personal taste than anything objective in regards to quality, and of course you can give your own spin to these things. In my Eberron, there are more high-level characters than there are in the base-line version, since I feel the PCs need some powerful enemies to fight - maybe no Elminsters, but the odd Fzoul. The PCs get to be the Elminsters, as I see it.
umm.. could someone modify this post to put a "spoilers" tag on it? All this FR-plot stuff is something I'm not really into, granted, but all this "Blackstaff's dead" and "Halaster's dead" stuff caught me unaware as I have not read or played the Shadowdale book. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. The irresponsible posters made no warning that spoilers were ahead, so if a Mod. could do it for the thread, that would be nice.
Apologies on my part for the spoilers and details, PF. Forgot to put in a warning and you've legitimately caught me in the act.
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Just a quick point - Some folks are pointing out that high sales are proof that FR is the more popular setting. I'm sorry, but in my opinion that is poor reasoning. WotC hasn't really produced any Greyhawk products to sell. I mean, sure, they just put out the Expeditions book, but what else? And FR has had how many books put out? 10? 20? And let's not forget the novel line.
My point is, that maybe if they actuallu supported Greyhawk, they'd find that it is just as popular, if not more so, than FR. Don't get me wrong, I like FR, but I also like Greyhawk, and want to see it supported.
I want to know what you as individuals see played, not what people like but what they actually sit down and play.
Well, I DM Greyhawk exclusively. Another DM I played with had his homebrew, and one 2e game I´m in is set on Mystara. So, from my at present very limited scope, there is no FR and no Eberron at all.
Oh, and Xenophon: Less strong words would have made your point clear as well, I think. I´m not quite offended, but a bit annoyed by this unneccessary sharpness in your words.
Stefan
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I love the realms, and whenever I run a game, it's always there. I don't have a PROBLEM with the other settings, and have enjoyed gaming in them when others have run. But I own all the Realms supplements, so it'd be a waste to run a game and not use them.
As others have said, I think WotC looks at the sales of Realms computer games (the Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale stuff, Neverwinter Nights stuff), all the novels, and all the gaming stuff. I think the Realms has "crossed over" into other platforms better than Greyhawk or Planescape or others, and I think that's why you're seeing this switch.
I have seen one Greyhawk campaign in the last 20 years. I have seen countless Forgotten Realms campaigns. So, from my own experience, Forgotten Realms does seem more popular.
Forgotten Realms? Never heard of it.
What were those realm thingies again?
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I've been playing D&D since the red boxed basic set, but only started to actually play FR in 3.0. The guy who runs the majority of the campaigns we play loves the depth and breadth of the world material. We centre our games around Thay/Mulhorand and the Wizard's Reach since it's relatively free of novel-related badassery (relatively) but has lots of interesting politics. Even so, I think it's getting a bit stale.
Personally, I think that reading the cosmology and history of FR is like reading a 20 year plot summary of a soap opera - buckets of Deus Ex Machina and bad writing. This god used to be a mortal but became divine after sleeping with Elminster. This major world leader is a crazy person that slept with Elminster. This nation goes to war because Elminster won't sleep with them...you get the idea. :)
Sometimes a campaign world lives long enough to collapse under the weight of its own lore/pulp. FR (IMO) is rapidly approaching that critical mass. There have been too many fingers in the pie for too long. Some authors and designers have made excellent contributions to a great game world, but many have just produced trash that has cheapened the setting.
I wish that they could just hit the re-set button on the Realms like they're doing with D&D by releasing 4E. If WotC does start another "Living" campaign, I hope they can do something to reinvent the Realms too. Hopefully it will not involve Elminster doing it with a hot elf chick. :)
Hope that made sense and wasn't just some random words strung together. The Kyuss worms are in my brain again :)
umm.. could someone modify this post to put a "spoilers" tag on it? All this FR-plot stuff is something I'm not really into, granted, but all this "Blackstaff's dead" and "Halaster's dead" stuff caught me unaware as I have not read or played the Shadowdale book. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. The irresponsible posters made no warning that spoilers were ahead, so if a Mod. could do it for the thread, that would be nice.My mistake on my initial post on Halaster and Sylune, and I appologize.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
Was the book on Khelben's death worth reading? Has Danilo showed up to the Tower in Waterdeep or is he just dropped from it all?
Was the book on Khelben's death worth reading? Has Danilo showed up to the Tower in Waterdeep or is he just dropped from it all?umm.. could someone modify this post to put a "spoilers" tag on it? All this FR-plot stuff is something I'm not really into, granted, but all this "Blackstaff's dead" and "Halaster's dead" stuff caught me unaware as I have not read or played the Shadowdale book. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. The irresponsible posters made no warning that spoilers were ahead, so if a Mod. could do it for the thread, that would be nice.My mistake on my initial post on Halaster and Sylune, and I appologize.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
Twofold answer . . . in my opinion Blackstaff was an excellent book, and I enjoyed it greatly, so I would endorse it. Secondly, Danilo does not appear in Blackstaff, but if you want to see the "resolution" to Khelben and Danilo's relationship, one of the first stories in the short story collection Best of the Realms III: The Stories of Elaine Cunningham has a pretty touching story that deals with with the two.
Hopefully it will not involve Elminster doing it with a hot elf chick.
I thought he had a thing for Halflings.
Personally, I think that reading the cosmology and history of FR is like reading a 20 year plot summary of a soap opera - buckets of Deus Ex Machina and bad writing. This god used to be a mortal but became divine after sleeping with Elminster. This major world leader is a crazy person that slept with Elminster. This nation goes to war because Elminster won't sleep with them...you get the idea. :)
I understand and repsect that the Realms isn't your ideal setting, but honestly, only one of the things you said was even vaguely true about the setting, and the rest is basically the kind of stuff that people that aren't familiar with the setting keep spewing over and over again.
The only cliche you missed was that almost every dark elf is really a tortured and lonely good guy.
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Was the book on Khelben's death worth reading? Has Danilo showed up to the Tower in Waterdeep or is he just dropped from it all?My mistake on my initial post on Halaster and Sylune, and I appologize.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
Slow start, but you get to know the man before he goes fwoom. Also it makes it clear that at least in some cases, being Chosen is not a blessing. Plus it gets into the Master/Familiar bond a bit more, ideas I'm going to yoink if anyone ever takes a 'little ball of easily lost XP' again.
Slow start, but you get to know the man before he goes fwoom. Also it makes it clear that at least in some cases, being Chosen is not a blessing. Plus it gets into the Master/Familiar bond a bit more, ideas I'm going to yoink if anyone ever takes a 'little ball of easily lost XP' again.Was the book on Khelben's death worth reading? Has Danilo showed up to the Tower in Waterdeep or is he just dropped from it all?My mistake on my initial post on Halaster and Sylune, and I appologize.
OTOH, I think a year is long enough to wait on Khelben.
Intresting. Im trying to remember my last realms book I read. Dream Spheres possibly. Maybe Ill give it a try.
Well here's hoping Cunnigham gets to do a book involving Danilo and his reaction to said events.
Personally, I think that reading the cosmology and history of FR is like reading a 20 year plot summary of a soap opera - buckets of Deus Ex Machina and bad writing. This god used to be a mortal but became divine after sleeping with Elminster. This major world leader is a crazy person that slept with Elminster. This nation goes to war because Elminster won't sleep with them...you get the idea. :)
LOL! That's it exactly. The setting is bloated and in desperate need of a reboot, or it should be dumped and replaced with the new hotness (Eberron). Mind you, same thing would have inevitably happened to Greyhawk if it had been pumped full of novels and supplements for 25 years. And someone tell Ed Greenwood to stop writing transparent self-masturbation novels, please.
Personally, I think that reading the cosmology and history of FR is like reading a 20 year plot summary of a soap opera - buckets of Deus Ex Machina and bad writing. This god used to be a mortal but became divine after sleeping with Elminster. This major world leader is a crazy person that slept with Elminster. This nation goes to war because Elminster won't sleep with them...you get the idea. :)LOL! That's it exactly. The setting is bloated and in desperate need of a reboot, or it should be dumped and replaced with the new hotness (Eberron). Mind you, same thing would have inevitably happened to Greyhawk if it had been pumped full of novels and supplements for 25 years. And someone tell Ed Greenwood to stop writing transparent self-masturbation novels, please.
You guys really must be getting the "alternate reality" version of the Forgotten Realms novels. Or else just regurgitating the knee jerk cliches that everybody that doesn't want to take the time to actually dig into the setting and is already opposed to it keep spreading.
Plus it would be nicer to actually get insightful criticism that personal attacks on a guy that has not only created the Forgotten Realms but actually is responsible for a lot of things in D&D that even the elite Greyhawk crowd takes for granted.
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Plus it would be nicer to actually get insightful criticism that personal attacks on a guy that has not only created the Forgotten Realms but actually is responsible for a lot of things in D&D that even the elite Greyhawk crowd takes for granted.
Good game designer/writer does not necessarily translate to good novelist. I've tried reading his novels, but can't get through them.
But I'm not really a fan of fiction that is tied in to a game, TV show, or movie anyway. (I know. I'm a freak.)
Campaign setting snobbery is amusing. Strict adherence to "canon" is a surefire way to frustration. Trying to say that a setting is inferior to another because of the volume of product produced for that setting is a new amusing argument to me.
"Brie Cheese is superior to Limburger because it is aged less."
What?
Just say you don't like the Realms and wish Wizards had started off converting a different setting. Trying to justify a matter of personal preference is usually an exercise in futility.
Plus it would be nicer to actually get insightful criticism that personal attacks on a guy that has not only created the Forgotten Realms but actually is responsible for a lot of things in D&D that even the elite Greyhawk crowd takes for granted.Good game designer/writer does not necessarily translate to good novelist. I've tried reading his novels, but can't get through them.
But I'm not really a fan of fiction that is tied in to a game, TV show, or movie anyway. (I know. I'm a freak.)
Hey, I won't argue with you . . . he's not the best novelist working on the FR line. I'd say Elaine Cunningham or Paul Kemp deserve that honor. I'm just saying that some of these attacks are less thoughtful criticism and more "standard Realms attack pattern delta."
Campaign setting snobbery is amusing. Strict adherence to "canon" is a surefire way to frustration. Trying to say that a setting is inferior to another because of the volume of product produced for that setting is a new amusing argument to me.
"Brie Cheese is superior to Limburger because it is aged less."
What?
Just say you don't like the Realms and wish Wizards had started off converting a different setting. Trying to justify a matter of personal preference is usually an exercise in futility.
Excellent point. I don't DM Greyhawk, but I had a blast playing there as a player. There are settings I've had a lot of fun playing in that I can't "wrap my brain around" as a DM. Personal tastes are going to vary, and tastes in setting between being a DM or a player may vary.
Eberron is a good setting.
You lost me here. *ducks*
"Brie Cheese is superior to Limburger because it is aged less."
You are obviously logging in from an insane asylum. Only the grandly delusional would even put forth that Brie Cheese is superior. Where are you summoning your facts on aging from? Ether?
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Excellent point. I don't DM Greyhawk, but I had a blast playing there as a player. There are settings I've had a lot of fun playing in that I can't "wrap my brain around" as a DM. Personal tastes are going to vary, and tastes in setting between being a DM or a player may vary.
I agree. There have been several settings I didn't particularly care for, such as Spelljammer (never could get my head around ships in space) and Dark Sun (too much psionics). It doesn't make them bad settings, just ones I don't care for. Many of my friends loved Dark Sun (and there are a lot of fans of it on these boards as well).
Ravenloft is another setting I've loved, and I've DMed many games there that my group loved, but by the same token, the other DM in our group never could figure out how to make that setting work.
I've also had many fun times adventuring in FR. It's just not my preference. (I really think the DM makes or breaks the setting in any case).
I guess personal taste will always win out, but when a setting gets too caught up in its canon as presented in outside fiction, it can tend to get a little convoluted (See: Dragonlance).
Just my experiences. ymmv.
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I understand and repsect that the Realms isn't your ideal setting, but honestly, only one of the things you said was even vaguely true about the setting, and the rest is basically the kind of stuff that people that aren't familiar with the setting keep spewing over and over again.
The only cliche you missed was that almost every dark elf is really a tortured and lonely good guy.
I reworked my response to your reply so often that I timed out and there were another bunch of posts added. My original post was a web of lies and exaggerations. I am the prince of lies (well, maybe the beadle in a backward little thorp of lies), and I'm sorry if I offended. It was not intended to take the form of attack pattern delta.
I enjoy playing in the FR very much. It's engaging and has a wealth of cultures to draw upon and my characters lead interesting lives...far far away from Shadowdale.
My biggest problem with the FR franchise is the lack of an arm's length relationship between the fiction and the campaign setting. Many are the timelines where characters from the novels figure prominently in world events.
It gives me the impression that the heroics of our own characters are sort of second rate in comparison. I don't want to play the guy who shook Luke's hand after he destroyed the Death Star, I want to play Luke! I hope it's safe to let that spoiler out...it's only been 30 years ;)
"Brie Cheese is superior to Limburger because it is aged less."You are obviously logging in from an insane asylum. Only the grandly delusional would even put forth that Brie Cheese is superior. Where are you summoning your facts on aging from? Ether?
LOL
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It gives me the impression that the heroics of our own characters are sort of second rate in comparison. I don't want to play the guy who shook Lukes hand after he destroyed the Death Star, I want to play Luke! I hope it's safe to let that spoiler out...it's only been 30 years ;)
I'd rather shake Wedge's hand. He has -two- death stars on his X-wing.
But yes... PCs on the sidelines in all the Realms Shattering Events gets annoying. I don't mind the abundance of Epics in Faerun, my players never meet them.
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I have done many campaigns in the realms, and in NONE of them have Elminster, Drizzt, Blackstaff, or any of their ilk ever gotten so much as a mention in them, let alone an appearance. Honestly,I don't read the novels at all anyway.
There is plenty of lore, campaign hooks, plot material, and so on in the supplements without having to know jack about the other side stuff. In fact I think it helps, less to try to keep track of that way.
Don't blame the realms for your insistence to include every last word ever written about it into your campaign. Take what you want, and leave the rest out. Do a campaign against Yuan-ti in Chult, Elminster and Drizzt will have nothing to do with that. I had a real fun campaign I ran with a Chosen of Shar attempting to spread the use and influence of the Shadow Weave. No big names in that either.
Like I said, I've played in Planescape, thought it was great. Played in Greyhawk, thought it was decent. Enjoyed Dark Sun too. I've played homebrew campaigns that were cool too. But the Realms is the right move for WotC to promote, because of its successful crossover in computer games and such, and the sales of all those novels you're apparently complaining about.
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I don't mind the abundance of Epics in Faerun, my players never meet them.
Epic characters are important parts of any campaign setting; they present a challenge for up and coming characters and play an important role in the mythology of the world. There just should be a point where the timeline becomes open and characters from the fiction no longer have a hand in events.
My favourite RPG/setting is Harnworld/Harnmaster. The world history was laid out in broad brushstrokes and got more detailed as the timeline closed in on the universal campaign start date (720 TR). From that point, the world belonged to the GM and player's imagingations, not the character from a specific series of novels.
Having setting and rules as separate entities also avoided those odd shifts in world dynamics because of a new version of the rules being released.
And yes, Wedge is cool. I'm happy he has a Galactic Heroes action figure now!
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I've been playing D&D since the red boxed basic set, but only started to actually play FR in 3.0. The guy who runs the majority of the campaigns we play loves the depth and breadth of the world material. We centre our games around Thay/Mulhorand and the Wizard's Reach since it's relatively free of novel-related badassery (relatively) but has lots of interesting politics. Even so, I think it's getting a bit stale.
Did something similar. Started a campaign in the Vilhon Reach away from all the BBGG's. Would love to start something in the Vast or Shining South even. (Put Shackled City in Tashulta). Love the Realms. Have had games all over it (even in Kara-tur and the Hordelands and Al-qadim back in 2.0 days).
However, I do like Eberron for its freshness and neat new races and pulpy feel...except when PCs say things like, "Hah! Lord of Blades is only 9th level. We can take him..."
Which is strange if you think of 3.x progression versus the plodding nature of 1.0 and 2.0. You'd think if it only takes 1 year of gametime to get to lvl 20, then everyone who fought in the Last War should be epic.
Just say you don't like the Realms and wish Wizards had started off converting a different setting. Trying to justify a matter of personal preference is usually an exercise in futility.
As wise as only a man who's handle is a Rush album could be. I like reading posts like this, though, with people going back and forth, knowing all the while that nobody's mind is going to change. Substitute "Chocolate" for "Forgotten Realms" and "Chocolate Chip" for Eberron, and you'd have pretty much the same conversation.
Plunging "Fly By Night" Forward
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As I've said before, personally, I like FR. I have a bunch of the FR novels, many of the source books, and have even played one long-term campaign in that world (granted that was a long time ago). And I can see the wisdom in them making it the core campaign setting. It does indeed sell better than anything else, but what would you expect with the abundance of material they put out for it.
My problem is that they don't even seem to be willing to give Greyhawk a chance anymore. I hope I'm wrong about that. I would dearly love to see a setting sourcebook. But I don't think WotC is going to do that. In there minds, Greyhawk equals old and unwanted, while FR equals cash cow. I know, they are a business, and businesses need to make money, but I just wish they could show a modicum of respect to what seems to be a large group of their customers. Besides, it seems to me that any successful business would want to grow their customer base, and I think new Greyhawk material could do that.
Full disclosure: I despise Eberron, and so don't even consider it worthy of being in this discussion. I can't explain it, because I'm not really sure why. I just do. Chalk it up to insanity.
I despise Eberron, and so don't even consider it worthy of being in this discussion. I can't explain it, because I'm not really sure why. I just do. Chalk it up to insanity.
Ah, company at the asylum. ;) I dislike Eberron because it's not "D&D" to me. Trains do not belong in my D&D. Warforged are just a ridiculous concept and very outside of what I consider fantasy. And so on.
Bottom line, it just changes too many things too much and too poorly. And it is the chosen vehicle for my beautiful psionics, which just makes it that much worse. There's also the air of "crap, we paid for this setting, we better crank out as many books, regardless of quality, as physically possible for it" from WotC. Whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Eberron is a good setting.You lost me here. *ducks*
Stop ducking, foolish mortal.
I'm a Planescape nut. I actually LIKE multiple settings, and Eberron is a long ways away from my cup of tea, but there is a large group of gamers out there who WANT to run Eberron. My point was that "one man's trash is another man's treasure." I'd don't really care for Eberron, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have its gems for D&D at large.
Now, I'm going back to my corner with the Dunce hat on, 'mmkay?
/d
I like reading posts like this, though, with people going back and forth, knowing all the while that nobody's mind is going to change.
It is human nature to deny that a differing opinion has the smallest suspicion of being valid.
I like reading posts like this, though, with people going back and forth, knowing all the while that nobody's mind is going to change.It is human nature to deny that a differing opinion has the smallest suspicion of being valid.
What a ridiculous thing to say. ;)
My biggest problem with the FR franchise is the lack of an arm's length relationship between the fiction and the campaign setting. Many are the timelines where characters from the novels figure prominently in world events.It gives me the impression that the heroics of our own characters are sort of second rate in comparison. I don't want to play the guy who shook Luke's hand after he destroyed the Death Star, I want to play Luke! I hope it's safe to let that spoiler out...it's only been 30 years ;)
I know this feeling, it´s the same if I try to play Middle Earth or Star Wars RPGs - although, with Star Wars I had a DM once doing a really good job of developing a storyline independent of the movies. Might have something to do with the fact that all PCs were Jedis... Same thing was it with Dragonlance: After I read the books, I had no interest in playing there anymore.
It is basically ok to develop a setting from its starting point and to write novels about it, but if these stories take away the spotlight from the heroes, then WTF? The story in an RPG should revolve around the PCs last time I checked, so why have stories degrading the PCs to onlookers?
Stefan
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I posted it somewhere else, a long time ago, and in not quite the same words...
Anyway, the problem with _________ (FR in this case, but Star Wars, Dragonlance, Eberron, Babylon 5, Star Trek, etc) is not the existence of canon, but the expectations that canon creates.
We (players and DMs) expect our stories to compare to the adventures in the source material. The biggest and the best legends, etc. But, unfortunately, we aren't professionally edited. We roll an inconvenient one, whatever.
But once you get into the novels (movies, comics, whatever) you expect your story to be that good (big, awesome, legendary), and it feels wrong when it isn't.
I don't like that FR is going first, because I am an Eberron player. I understand the decision, doesn't make me like FR though. Of course, it is my own expectations of the game that make it that way.
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Eberron is my preference too, but we shall see what comes out. My suspicion is that it remains less popular than FR, and might go the way of GH.
On the issue of canon and novels - I simply don't have any problem with this. I read the novels in a similar spirit to reading the newspaper - to keep abreast of events (and to be entertained too, of course). I recently read the Last Mythal series because I heard that Myth Drannor had been liberated, and I wanted to know how. I read the (inferior) Archmages series to find out what gave with Shade. The novels let you know what is happening in the broader context in Faerun, but they tend to be relatively specific to a particular area and can generally be completely ignored if you so desire.
However, in a setting like FR the history and events can be a spur for adventure ideas (and have been for others - the recent published adventures build off the events of the two series I just mentioned, plus others) so I like to keep up to date. I don't think the adventures I come up with are inferior to those the characters in the novels are having. Just different. I see the novel characters as a different bunch of adventurers having different adventures. I might be less inclined to do stuff like killing gods or overthrowing cities which might clash with canon. But there are plenty of spaces on the map to put all that stuff if you want to without cuasing problems.