Being the optomistic kind of guy that I am, I've been thinking and I reckon 4E is going to be awesome. The few bits of info that I've seen about actual changes to the game's rules (which is the only thing I care about, all that online jazz and the rest is just packaging) seem to me as if they will be a lot better, at least by my standards. An update of classes and races is sorely needed IMHO and I really like the sound of the weapon-based Fighter powers and even the modular online drop and drag PC design. My players have been asking me if something like this exists for ages now. Only a few months back I asked on these boards if anyone had a SIMS-like program with D&D clothes, weapons and armour for making PC portraits exactly how you want them. And as for sucking money out of us: It's a hobby, by definition you're paying for a luxury. At least it's not as expensive as those model trains old guys play with. Have you seen how much it costs for a half-inch high mailman?
I think 3/3.5 is an overblown beast that needs a clean slate and hey, I can always use my old 3x stuff as a goldmine for resources and ideas. I can't wait to get the 4E core books and start playing. And no, I'm not being sarcastic and I don't work for Wizards.
...Who's with me? Anyone?
I'll buy the core three. I will not buy any other books. Period. Just like 3.5.
If I ever run, it will be core only.
Hopeful? Yes.
...Who's with me? Anyone?
I am! The stuff that I read from the previews seems to go along with my idea of DnD. I wish it was still less class orientated, but that seems to be DnD's trademark.
Now, if only it wasn't...[waits for DnD 4ed countdown widget]...away. I currently own no DnD books, so I'd like to go ahead and start with the new edition. I guess it's a good thing that I like collecting stuff like this.
Well I for one like the idea of a subscription model - of course first they have to implement it well but I can see some significant advantages.
For me a really good subscription model would put the onus on WotC to make good content or potentially loose subscribers. I'm down with that.
Beyond that I'm tired of editions, I want a constantly evolving game where rule problems and unbalanced content are actually fixed. I'm not at all sure that this is what I'm getting here but if it were then I'd be a happy subscriber.
Essentially what we seem to see with every edition of every major game system is the release of a well thought core system thats simple but a little vanilla.
They then pile on supplement after supplement which adds to the flavour but then clutters the whole mess up. Rule loop holes start to crop up all over the place and its left the the individual game masters to try and squash them. Eventually the system gets so top heavy that the consumer base starts to waver. Each release sells fewer copies then the last release. Some releases (Options and Powers in 2nd edition, BO9S in 3rd) become increasingly controversial to the mainstream gaming community with some groups embracing the material and other rejecting it. At this critical point where truly large numbers of the fan base just won't buy anymore the shoe finally drops. The slate is wiped clean and we start the cycle all over again.
Its just not really an ideal model for the consumer of the product. In the end vast libraries of material are wiped out and we are forced to replace all the material again. But - as we all know, the company has no real choice but to do this to us or go out of business.
OK I buy that but what if the economic model were changed? What if the company could access a constant revenue stream by providing content to subscribers who paid monthly so long as the content was good? Well that would eliminate the need to go through the same cycle over and over again, each time harming your customer base by making everything you prevously sold them obsolete.
This could also lead to a better game. When I think of content I think of adventures and new classes and new monsters sure. However I also think of rules updates and by updates I mean the online SRD gets the erratta added to it so that the rules themselves actually evolve.
For example lets consider the Frenzied Berserker. The idea of a prestige class like this for the Barbarian is a pretty neat one. The problem is that its badly designed and, at the end of the day, the idea of play balancing it by making it so that every so often it killed Jane's Sorceress was probably ill conceived. Frenzied Berserker is not a bad idea but it needs help to make it work. If WotC had an evolving online rules data base they could take note when the fan base went WTF?!? and actually do something about it. They could essentially go and fix the prestige class. It would not be out there in print and unmodifiable forever - leaving it to individual DMs to cope with the fall out.
Essentially weak areas of the content could be fixed when it became apparent that they where broken. There would never be any such thing as an adventure that was totally done and untouchable. If a room was found to be busted the content would be rewritten so that it was not busted. If a fan posted a great improvement for part of an adventure that could be added with a footnote thanking the contributer who's great idea inspired the make over of the room or encounter.
Same thing with monsters. Is a monsters ability to confusing? To weak or powerful for its CR? just not fun? No problem - the subscriber base has invested WotC with a mandate to fix this sort of thing. Broken monsters are fixed when the problems become apparent.
And on and on.... spells that don't work get reworked so that they do. If the wording is bad then its clarified. If the feat is broken it gets repaired. If its boring it gets enhanced.
The process is never ending the rules improve weekly from now until...well until the new VR enhanced edition comes out. There is always something new being added. Sure a lot will eventually just not need any more tweaking. It'll work perfectly but there will always be new content that is fresh and exciting and if its not well balanced or did not take into account an obscure magic item that makes it to powerful - well that will be addressed eventually when it does come to light.
The game itself would be ever evolving and improving and the subscriber base would pay for this through a steady stream of cash to WotC ... and the bean counters would rejoice.
heres a youtube link of some of the designers talking about 4e in a video that i assume was used at gencon tonight...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3J8t2-RVs
Sounds pretty cool.I'm hopefull.
I'm neither for nor against 4e at this time-- I think Jeremy's assessment above is very good. Being OG and improving the game will get me on board. Tying too closely to shoddy online offerings and/or making the rules too focused on combat vs. RP will lose me. I've been playing since OD&D, and don't mind the evolution, unless it's counter-productive to the game.
Hopeful. An expanded level sweet spot sounds awfully good to me because high level DMing in 3.5 is a tedious chore and if Wizards has figured out how to make combat faster and high level play easier to bear, then I'm all in.
Plus 4e OGL means Paizo can convert to 4e for GameMastery and Pathfinder and that's all good too.
Yes, it'll suck to buy all new rule books, but I enjoy this hobby too much not to get sucked in.
Thanks for that fine piece of optimism Mr Mac Donald. The ability to fix the broken bits of DnD was one I hadn't foreseen. I am excited but as I have said in a number of threads now, for me if the Virtual table rocks...I'm in all the way.
If all else fails I still have enough 3/3.5E stuff to last a lifetime.
See my profile.
"They can take my d20, but they can't take my OGL!"
er . . . something like that.
As I've written already. I have been fortunate enough to NOT buy a heap of splatbooks. I have the three core books and 28 years of figures collected. Other than that, it's just Dungeon and Dragon mags....
3.5 has some seriously whack problems illustrated on numerous threads here.
I'm giving 4 a chance.
Please God, make them change AC. Skill and ability rolls. Class lameness. Magic.
Yeah 3.5 is a bit overburdened with prestige classes, skills and feats kinda blew up as well. I think 1st level characters need to be a little stronger.
If they did away with Classes, I would be very intrigued.
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I wrote this in the other thread, but I think it applies here, because I am very optomistic about 4e now that I have heard a bit more about it. My single biggest fear was that they were phasing out the paper and pencil RPG for what would ultimately be a purely online MMORPG hybrid. The ideas they have sound very refreshing for the game, and I look forward to seeing what they have done.
Here is my longer comment to that effect from the other thread....
I'm personally somewhat excited about the new edition. I listened to the presentation at Gen Con, and personally think it sounds like they have some solid ideas. Anything that streamlines play is good as long as it doesn't take away from players giving their characters depth. As for resource management, I am an old school D&D person on that issue and don't like the idea of abilities that replenish over time as opposed to by the day. That said, the current market dictates that sort of change as well as the digital components. D&D isn't just trying to get it's market share from guys like me who have been playing for 20 years and will keep buying books even if they hadn't ever revised 1st edition. They have to compete for a market share with the younger crowd that has grown up on video games and MMORPG's. D&D, even in the 3.5 incarnation, was difficult to start playing if you were new to the game compared to say WoW and also requires that you have a group of friends who wants to play. If you want to get some of that consumer's gaming budget, you have to offer something that appeals to them in terms of the same ease of use and instant gratification that the video games or MMORPG's offers.
It's all about staying economically viable in a gaming market where larger and larger shares of the market are becoming digital. The fact that they are still committed to producing the books and pencil and paper RPG is a good sign IMHO. As for whether the game will be better than 3.5 or not, I am willing to wait and see on that. This same sort of nashing of teeth occured when 2nd edition came out, when 3rd edition came out, and when 3.5 edition came out. It's the same old song and dance from gamers who don't like change to something they enjoy. I think we should all see what the game is like at the table before we write it off completely. I for one intent to buy all the core books and subscribe to the D&D Insider initially to take it for a test drive. If I don't like it, I will still have all my 3.5 edition stuff, and I will only be out the money the core books and a few months of the insider content cost me. If it turns out 4th edition is as much an improvement to the game as 3rd edition was over 2nd edition, they will have sold me in spades.
Lastly, I think everyone should back off the ledge a bit. A 4th edition was going to happen eventually. It was just a question of when. No matter when they released it whether now or 10 years from now, there would still be people that are angry they did it. D&D has grown a lot over the years, and I for one am looking forward to what the new edition might bring.
The preview of the D&D Insider has intrigued me, I have to admit. It looks like WotC really tries to combine the best of Tabletop RPG with games like Diablo - and Diablo is cool, IMHO!
And, yes, D&D 3.5 has its bugs. I´m not all optimistic for 4e, but after the previews, I´m a lot more at ease than before - it looks good, after all.
STefan
They have to compete for a market share with the younger crowd that has grown up on video games and MMORPG's.
I disagree. I do not think you can serve two masters. If you want to make video games, then you better focus on making video games or the video game industry will eat you alive. That is a highly competitive market. Personally, I do not want my role playing to become more like a video game. I enjoy video games as much as the next 25-35 year old white male protestant. I enjoy telling a good story around a table with all my friends even more. Is that really so niche that it can not survive on its own?
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I don't know what the 4E package will include. But it makes sense to make it more compatible with other media, especially the internet, as that is the way technology in general is going. Like I say, I don't really know what it entails. But if you can play D&D with your friends over the internet (and with a DM, not DDO) then that can only be a good thing. The MMORPG analogy is flawed, but in a more general sense enabling D&D technologically is clearly a good idea. Personally, I would prefer to sit in a room with the gamer chums - but as I run two PbPs and participate in two more, I know that isn't always practical. And if you can't find a game in your locale, then it is the obvious next step.
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They have to compete for a market share with the younger crowd that has grown up on video games and MMORPG's.I disagree. I do not think you can serve two masters. If you want to make video games, then you better focus on making video games or the video game industry will eat you alive. That is a highly competitive market. Personally, I do not want my role playing to become more like a video game. I enjoy video games as much as the next 25-35 year old white male protestant. I enjoy telling a good story around a table with all my friends even more. Is that really so niche that it can not survive on its own?
I'm not saying that tabletop RPG's need to become video games. What I am saying is that entrance into the tabletop RPG needs to become easier for a player that hasn't done it before. You don't try to replace video games, you try to make your game accessible enough that the people who are playing video games are also interested in trying tabletop D&D because there are features about it that are similar to a video game in terms of getting started.
Having an online community set up so people can play D&D if they don't have a group of friends is huge. In effect, if you get one person who hasn't played it to try it, if he likes it he will tell his friends, and then they will try it. Eventually, that group might move to playing the game at the table with each other at home instead of online. In effect you found a way to insert your paper and pencil RPG into the purchasing consciousness of a gamer who is a "video game" person.
It's not about trying to take the entire video game market. It's about making yourself more accessible to the average player who is deciding between trying D&D or not. If you don't already have a group of friends, it can be hard to find such a group, and with the complexity of parts of the rules, many players will give up and do something else before they have even actually tried the game at all. A kid is more likely to try the game if all they have to do is buy a PHB and pay a subscription fee to find people to play with than they are if they have to buy 3 core books, and then on top of that try to get a group of friends together to play it and then teach those friends how to play it when they haven't had a chance to try it before. If you get enough kids who give it a test run through the online medium, you will get a percentage of those as tabletop gamers who introduce it to their friends, who introduce to their friends, and so on and so forth. The bottom line though, is how to you get the player who has never played D&D, and hasn't been exposed to it.
Noone likes change. That doesn't mean that the change won't make things better. 3ed was a huge improvement over 2ed, and I have every reason to believe that 4ed could be a huge improvement over 3ed. The D&D game isn't perfect, and I see the new edition and digital initiative as ways for WotC to make the game more accessible and fun for everyone.
I've never understood the problem people invariably find when a new edition is released. What did you expect? A company that doesn't adapt, change and release new product is doomed to go out of business. That being said, what law was written that states you must buy the new edition. Good lord, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there still playing 1st Edition. Great! Play what you like. You pretty much need two or three books, a set of dice, paper & pencil. Personally, I buy the new stuff because I like it. It's interesting to read and I enjoy it. People need to chill and just use what they have now if they don't wish to keep buying new rules, books, etc. I'm glad 4th Edition is coming out because it means our hobby will continue to exist for at least a few more years. I don't know about anyone else out there but I have enough game product to last me 10 lifetimes with the amount I get to play. That being said, bring on 4E.
What did you expect? A company that doesn't adapt, change and release new product is doomed to go out of business.
Good point. Microsoft does well forcing everyone to change OS's every few years.
I don't understand why you guys are excited about 4E when 5E is around the corner!?
When 3E began, they started working on 3.5E
Three years after 3.5E was released, they admitted they began working on 4E.
What do you think is going
How about sticking to the SAME edition and just IMPROVING the same editon. You DO NOT have to change the edition of the game just to attract more revenue. You need to just make the current editon more attractive.
3.5E is where I'll stay. To hell with this 4E MMORPG/WOW garbage. Killing both sacred cows and RP...total crap.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Sounds like this edition is going to make things more "Munchkin-Friendly."
I'm afraid 4E D&D is going to become more of a tabletop skirmish game, with everyone playing the same one or two character types once it's determined which skill/feat/(whatever they're gonna call it) combos dish out the most damage quickest.
I got into D&D because of the role-playing aspect, and as the D&D Miniature line grows, the emphasis on the role-playing aspect by WotC seems to decline.
By 6E, I'm betting we're gonna be looking at a copycat version Warhammer Skirmish rules, played with collectible miniatures, and supplemented by collectible card packs that contain skills, feats, and powers that you can't get anywhere else.
"Buy our cards, and your characters will be able to gain new powers!"
"Buy our minis to get new feats and combat maneuvers not available anywhere else!"
"Subscribe to our on-line supplements for rules updates, and information necessary to play your favorite character that you won't get anywhere else!"
"Now completely compatible with Magic: The Gathering!"
*sigh*
I look forward to the 4.0 version, but like some have stated I will only buy the core 3 books and the Psionics Handbook if one comes out. I for the most part am very happy with 3.5 and by buying the core books in 4.0 I will adapt the better parts of the new edition into my current game.
I held off initially from getting involved in the 3.0 & 3.5 editions but as time went on I jumped on the wagon with both feet at once and was very happy in doing so. Now though, my children are getting older and at this time are less interested as they have been in the past in playing D&D on a regular basis. So like in the past I will bide my time and see what the future brings. I can promise one thing for sure, and that is I will be buying fewer books for this next edition and be doing alot more of my own work, for 5th edition is in all reality not far off, even if measured in a humans lifetime.
I for one am very excited about 4th edition. What little information they have released seems really cool to me.
I won't knock it until I play it.
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as above.
i will buy the core 3, and any Psionics handbook that comes out.
i will NOT be buying the complete cowherd/expanded complete cowherd version 2.0.
i will buy the new minis lines, since having the right mini for the right monster/character has become a little bit of an obsession with me lately.
i will probably subscribe to D&D Insider, if only to stay abreast of the game and have access to that online char-gen software.
plus, having a "create you own" character/digital mini, and the capability to play "PbP" on a virtual game-board seems quite nice.
after all, we already have at least 3 if not 4 laptops on the table while we game, why not continue the trend?
-the hamster
Should we start a separate thread for the 4.5e hopefuls or just post here?
I'm tired of editions, I want a constantly evolving game where rule problems and unbalanced content are actually fixed.
[...]
They then pile on supplement after supplement which adds to the flavour but then clutters the whole mess up.
Editions is the right way to go to avoid the continually supplemented rules problem you cite.
The problem would be exacerbated by having major official rules updates on a subscription basis. Looking just at new players, is it right to expect them to buy the physical books then go back and both pay a monthly fee and read X months or years worth of online updates just to learn how to play the game? No, it's better to have an edition and stick with it as much as possible over the course of the life of the product.
Everyone has a common rules set, everyone can play the game equally, and everyone only has to buy the one book to play and learn the game.
I am excited and hopeful as well.
Looking forward to seeing what paizo is going to offer in the 4e realm.