I've noticed with the iconics, and indeed all the preview art, that females are figuring much more prominently than males (basically Valeros and Karzoug are it on the male side). I'm hoping we'll see some more representation of males to provide inspiration to players?
Hmm . . .I find the ladies quite inspiring ;)
Three females vs. one male iconic. Then one male "bad guy" vs. a female Varisian Gypsy and a Star Knife Thrower. That's 5 to 2. I'm not complaining about the females--the art for all the characters has been very nice. But the majority of my players for my RotR PbP (maybe all, can't tell since it's PbP) are male. They've got nothing to look to thematically for ideas on the setting as yet. I'm sure more will be coming out as the product matures, but wanted to voice a call for some gender balance in the art.
EDIT: And another odd thing I just thought of for this--the iconics specifically are being targetted as pre-gen characters for the Game Mastery series. Having 75% of the pre-gens as female seems an odd choice for a hobby generally acknowledge as heavily male. I'm not against encouraging more female involvement, but if we've got a table of new players sitting around getting ready to play D&D for the first time, it seems strange that the DM would be basically limited to saying one person gets the male, and everyone else is playing a female. I've been playing for decades--I can roll with being handed a female to play. A new (and possibly young, most likely male) gamer may have problems. Again, not a complaint, just seems a weird decision.
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Three females vs. one male iconic. Then one male "bad guy" vs. a female Varisian Gypsy and a Star Knife Thrower. That's 5 to 2. I'm not complaining about the females--the art for all the characters has been very nice. But the majority of my players for my RotR PbP (maybe all, can't tell since it's PbP) are male. They've got nothing to look to thematically for ideas on the setting as yet. I'm sure more will be coming out as the product matures, but wanted to voice a call for some gender balance in the art.
EDIT: And another odd thing I just thought of for this--the iconics specifically are being targetted as pre-gen characters for the Game Mastery series. Having 75% of the pre-gens as female seems an odd choice for a hobby generally acknowledge as heavily male. I'm not against encouraging more female involvement, but if we've got a table of new players sitting around getting ready to play D&D for the first time, it seems strange that the DM would be basically limited to saying one person gets the male, and everyone else is playing a female. I've been playing for decades--I can roll with being handed a female to play. A new (and possibly young, most likely male) gamer may have problems. Again, not a complaint, just seems a weird decision.
Considering how lopsided gender representation (towards the male end) has been in D&D's past, I'm rather pleased that it's been skewed the other way thus far (especially considering the majority of the players in the group I'm going to be DMing for are women). I'm sure it'll even out, but I'll not mind if they do keep the skew.
Besides, not all male players have hang ups about playing female characters--and those that do can simply ignore the artwork and change the gender on the character sheet to male (because, really, that's all it takes). And that's assuming they actually use the pregens instead of creating their own characters. ;)
Creative Director
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We've got all 11 of the core classes worked out, with one repeat, and I believe that the final split between male and female iconics is 6/6; dead even. That means that, of the eight iconics we've yet to reveal, only three are female; the other five are guys. So in the end, it'll be a straight split between the genders.
That said... I chose the first four to a certain extent deliberately to have 3 women and 1 man. The first Pathfinder features the classic D&D fighter dude, but after that, there's three women. Why? Two main reasons:
1: Girls are luckier (see editorial to Dungeon #144).
2: Frankly, I'm a bit worn out and sick of male-dominated adventuring parties in D&D art. The game hasn't supported gender differences since 1st edition (thank GOD!), so why not have a party composed mostly (or even entirely) of women? And if that sets Pathfinder apart from the rest of the crowd, cool. If the gender of a pre-gen is that much of a problem, it's a simple matter to change them and ignore the art. Most players of Pathfinder adventrues should be rolling up their own characters anyway.
3: Women on covers sell better. As crass as that may sound... it appears to be the truth. And since Pathfinder's success is pretty important to me and to Paizo, we're kind of doing everything we can to get readers hooked as soon as possible.
For what it's worth... Pathfinder's 2nd adventure path will have more male iconics on the covers during its 6-part run, and the iconic villian will be a woman.
Yesssss! :D
2: Frankly, I'm a bit worn out and sick of male-dominated adventuring parties in D&D art. The game hasn't supported gender differences since 1st edition (thank GOD!), so why not have a party composed mostly (or even entirely) of women? And if that sets Pathfinder apart from the rest of the crowd, cool. If the gender of a pre-gen is that much of a problem, it's a simple matter to change them and ignore the art. Most players of Pathfinder adventrues should be rolling up their own characters anyway.
Looking at the long line of art back to 1e, I'd say females are in the minority; non-cheesecake ones even more so. A few sensibly dressed females helps to balance this out.
As it is, the art on these has already helped me getting a better understanding of the world. The cleric's god has many domains in common with Pelor, but the cleric looks nothing like Jozan. And if I need a male cleric, it doesn't take much imagination to bulk up the cleric.
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Creative Director
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As it is, the art on these has already helped me getting a better understanding of the world. The cleric's god has many domains in common with Pelor, but the cleric looks nothing like Jozan. And if I need a male cleric, it doesn't take much imagination to bulk up the cleric.
Plus, Kyra's a LOT nicer than Jozan. Jozan's an evil heretic. Want proof? Check out his picture near the end of the PHB. Yeah... the one where he's casting a symbol of pain. Which is, of course, an EVIL spell.
As it is, the art on these has already helped me getting a better understanding of the world. The cleric's god has many domains in common with Pelor, but the cleric looks nothing like Jozan. And if I need a male cleric, it doesn't take much imagination to bulk up the cleric.Plus, Kyra's a LOT nicer than Jozan. Jozan's an evil heretic. Want proof? Check out his picture near the end of the PHB. Yeah... the one where he's casting a symbol of pain. Which is, of course, an EVIL spell.
OMG! I can't believe I never noticed that! I'm so disappointed in Jozan. He must not be a true follower of Pelor after all...
And I agree about the previous disparity with female adventurers--and I totally get Paizo's rationale. And who knows, maybe this will make the game more inviting to female gamers...
We've got all 11 of the core classes worked out, with one repeat, and I believe that the final split between male and female iconics is 6/6; dead even.
I'd say you did good...real good...on that split then.
...Women on covers sell better. As crass as that may sound... it appears to be the truth. And since Pathfinder's success is pretty important to me and to Paizo, we're kind of doing everything we can to get readers hooked as soon as possible.
Mission accomplished. Consider me hooked. And not just because of the cool artwork and females on the cover...
Yeah.
Really.
Honest.
Why's everyone looking at me?! ;-)
And who knows, maybe this will make the game more inviting to female gamers...
I hope so. I have two small girls who aren't quite ready to get into gaming yet. But, someday, I want to be able to point to something like Pathfinder's female iconics and say to them, "Yeah...see? Girls do rock!"
Not that they'll need that kind of encouragement to come to that conclusion. But as much as male gamers might look for male iconics from which to draw inspiration, the same is done for female players with the female iconics.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
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I hope so. I have two small girls who aren't quite ready to get into gaming yet. But, someday, I want to be able to point to something like Pathfinder's female iconics and say to them, "Yeah...see? Girls do rock!"
--Neil
Kind of off topic, but my 2 year old is in love with Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. She'll bring me the PS2 controller and demand that Vaan show up.
I think a mix of the sexes is good, and I think you also need *gasp* females who don't show a lot of flesh. Yeah, I know, its sacrilegious, sue me.
...the iconic villian will be a woman.*Crosses fingers for Runelord of Lust*
While I think you're joking, THAT would support the very stereotypes James claims to want to discard. So I hope they don't make the "easy" choice and go that route....
Good to hear there will be a good stream of male iconics as well. I'm in favor of trying to bring in more female players (heck, I had to work hard to hook my wife in!) and also in favor of selling more product. I'm not keen on a "reverse-dscrimination approach" that some take to an extreme, however, so it's good to see there will be a nice balance.
...the iconic villian will be a woman.*Crosses fingers for Runelord of Lust*
Oh, she's out there. You can read all about her in Pathfinder #1 and even in Seven Swords of Sin. But Rise of the Runelords is really the runelord vehicle and in AP#2 we plan on showing you some of the other evils Golarion has to offer. Fans of powerful women, ageless evil, and the color red will NOT be disappointed.
Fans of powerful women, ageless evil, and the color red will NOT be disappointed.
Red FTW!
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While I think you're joking, THAT would support the very stereotypes James claims to want to discard. So I hope they don't make the "easy" choice and go that route....
Oh, she's out there. You can read all about her in Pathfinder #1 and even in Seven Swords of Sin. But Rise of the Runelords is really the runelord vehicle and in AP#2 we plan on showing you some of the other evils Golarion has to offer. Fans of powerful women, ageless evil, and the color red will NOT be disappointed.
I was certainly joking... Puberty released it's stranglehold on me long ago...
And I would be disappointed if the main villain turned out to be just another runelord.
Maybe do something with evil fey this time?
Me like looky-looky Seoni...she very powerful and easy on me eyes...
ow!
OW!
Honey...honey...I'm sorry, it's just a joke!
OW!!
...
...
...Pshhht! Wives! Why's she readin' over my shoulder anywa--
OW!!
OWWWW!!!!
You should be careful Andrew...it's real easy to get in a tight spot on these boards, some real deep hot wet trouble, if you get my meaning. I could help you with that.
I'm sure I'll be booed and get rotten vegetables thrown at me for this, but I honestly feel that the Runelord of Lust should be male. Having the personification of Lust be female in fantasy is cliché.
Now, of course, to fulfill all your fanboy fantasies that never made it all the way through adolescence, his underlings can definitely be female . .. . oh yes.
You should be careful Andrew...it's real easy to get in a tight spot on these boards, some real deep hot wet trouble, if you get my meaning. I could help you with that.Me like looky-looky Seoni...she very powerful and easy on me eyes...
ow!
OW!
Honey...honey...I'm sorry, it's just a joke!
OW!!
...
...
...Pshhht! Wives! Why's she readin' over my shoulder anywa--
OW!!
OWWWW!!!!
Ewwww, Nick. Ewwww!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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You should be careful Andrew...it's real easy to get in a tight spot on these boards, some real deep hot wet trouble, if you get my meaning. I could help you with that.Me like looky-looky Seoni...she very powerful and easy on me eyes...
ow!
OW!
Honey...honey...I'm sorry, it's just a joke!
OW!!
...
...
...Pshhht! Wives! Why's she readin' over my shoulder anywa--
OW!!
OWWWW!!!!
That's just so horribly wrong. Especially since I *know* it's Logue doing it.
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I'm sure I'll be booed and get rotten vegetables thrown at me for this, but I honestly feel that the Runelord of Lust should be male. Having the personification of Lust be female in fantasy is cliché.
Now, of course, to fulfill all your fanboy fantasies that never made it all the way through adolescence, his underlings can definitely be female . .. . oh yes.
The computer game "Overlord" actually did that. A "perverted-paladin" with red robed men and women as underlings, and a succubus-queen to satisfy himself...
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'm sure I'll be booed and get rotten vegetables thrown at me for this, but I honestly feel that the Runelord of Lust should be male. Having the personification of Lust be female in fantasy is cliché.
Now, of course, to fulfill all your fanboy fantasies that never made it all the way through adolescence, his underlings can definitely be female . .. . oh yes.
What if the Runelord of Lust was a hermaphrodite? Born with breasts and both sex organs? Lustful because they aren't discerning in the slightest.
He/She/It masquerades depending on the day/occasion as either a male or female. They're very charismatic - and in either guise looks like a beautiful man or a handsome woman. Maybe they have some deep-seeded psychological issues too.
EDIT: Might be even better if the Runelord is a "defenseless" woman they save in the first adventure. This is of course a carefully constructed set up - as the runelord manipulates the party in its female guise, while attacking them in its Male guise. The big reveal near the end of the AP would be that their confidant, whom they "saved", is really also the (male) BBEG.
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You should be careful Andrew...it's real easy to get in a tight spot on these boards, some real deep hot wet trouble, if you get my meaning. I could help you with that.Me like looky-looky Seoni...she very powerful and easy on me eyes...
ow!
OW!
Honey...honey...I'm sorry, it's just a joke!
OW!!
...
...
...Pshhht! Wives! Why's she readin' over my shoulder anywa--
OW!!
OWWWW!!!!That's just so horribly wrong. Especially since I *know* it's Logue doing it.
Great! My wife told me one more outburst and I'm on restriction for two weeks!
Dang the jig is up!
I can't have any fun anymore! :-)
And another odd thing I just thought of for this--the iconics specifically are being targetted as pre-gen characters for the Game Mastery series. Having 75% of the pre-gens as female seems an odd choice for a hobby generally acknowledge as heavily male. I'm not against encouraging more female involvement, but if we've got a table of new players sitting around getting ready to play D&D for the first time, it seems strange that the DM would be basically limited to saying one person gets the male, and everyone else is playing a female.
Funny... I did a search of the message boards because I had exactly the same question. And I have a group of players where the males are fine playing females but I still don't quite get the rationale for making three of the four characters available for initial Gamemastery products female in a hobby dominated by males. Yeah, they make good covers, yeah they're sexier than a harem of succubi, yeah, I have their jpgs downloaded and rotating as my desktop pictures...
BUT... if we presume the trends are still holding and mostly males are coming to the hobby, will these male newbies be willing to play cross-gender? I'm realy not convinced.
That said, I am a HUGE iconics fan and do love the characters even if I'm going to tweak their mechanics pretty heavily before I turn them over to my players, or better yet, let THEM tweak the numbers and such.
Forgive me if this has been asked here or elsewhere but has anyone actually introduced the hobby to anyone new using these pregens? And if so, how did it go?
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I just have a quick question -
Can anyone at Paizo tell me, will there be any non-standard race iconics? (I was looking over Dungeon #149 again, and thought the centaur sorcerer was pretty cool.)
Any plans or chance of ever seeing a satyr or centaur iconic? Maybe even one of those half-ogres I've heard mentioned? Not at first of course...but it seems like the Dungeon Iconics had a few oddballs that stood out - like the drow bard and tiefling fighter. (Ok ok, those are definitely more common as player characters than centaurs or satyrs.)
Any plans for something like this? I realize they're not as "iconic" as the standard races that are playable/core, I was just wondering.
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Creative Director
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I just have a quick question -
Can anyone at Paizo tell me, will there be any non-standard race iconics? (I was looking over Dungeon #149 again, and thought the centaur sorcerer was pretty cool.)
Any plans or chance of ever seeing a satyr or centaur iconic? Maybe even one of those half-ogres I've heard mentioned? Not at first of course...but it seems like the Dungeon Iconics had a few oddballs that stood out - like the drow bard and tiefling fighter. (Ok ok, those are definitely more common as player characters than centaurs or satyrs.)
Any plans for something like this? I realize they're not as "iconic" as the standard races that are playable/core, I was just wondering.
There's no chance of seeing a non-PHB race iconic anytime soon. They're the ones that the game is built for, and they're the ones the game plays best with in my opinion.
Now, as Pathfinder moves on, we may do some more unusual iconic characters in the future; we'll CERTAINLY have body shots inside Pathfinder that depict non-PHB races.
Won't be before Pathfinder #18, I'm pretty positive. (And no, that doesn't mean there's going to be a centaur on $19... but we DO have some plans to move centaurs a bit more onto the stage before too long...)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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There's no chance of seeing a non-PHB race iconic anytime soon. They're the ones that the game is built for, and they're the ones the game plays best with in my opinion.Now, as Pathfinder moves on, we may do some more unusual iconic characters in the future; we'll CERTAINLY have body shots inside Pathfinder that depict non-PHB races.
Won't be before Pathfinder #18, I'm pretty positive. (And no, that doesn't mean there's going to be a centaur on $19... but we DO have some plans to move centaurs a bit more onto the stage before too long...)
Sweet. Not dying to see one, just something that I was curious about. I'm definitely more interested in seeing the "core" races portrayed as iconics first - I was just thinking that far far down the line, maybe an oddball might be cool.
EDIT: And...really looking forward to how you guys move centaurs onto the stage. Maybe a confederacy of plains roaming centaurs? Something like the Iroquois Nation might be cool. Just a thought.
But, looking forward to whatever you do!
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As it is, the art on these has already helped me getting a better understanding of the world. The cleric's god has many domains in common with Pelor, but the cleric looks nothing like Jozan. And if I need a male cleric, it doesn't take much imagination to bulk up the cleric.Plus, Kyra's a LOT nicer than Jozan. Jozan's an evil heretic. Want proof? Check out his picture near the end of the PHB. Yeah... the one where he's casting a symbol of pain. Which is, of course, an EVIL spell.
That art just goes to show that the best class in the game deserves at least four iconics to do it justice!
There's no chance of seeing a non-PHB race iconic anytime soon. They're the ones that the game is built for, and they're the ones the game plays best with in my opinion.
So the iconic barbarian won't be an awakened gorilla with a monocle and tophat?
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Creative Director
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There's no chance of seeing a non-PHB race iconic anytime soon. They're the ones that the game is built for, and they're the ones the game plays best with in my opinion.So the iconic barbarian won't be an awakened gorilla with a monocle and tophat?
No. The gorilla's the iconic dwarf.
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I hope so. I have two small girls who aren't quite ready to get into gaming yet. But, someday, I want to be able to point to something like Pathfinder's female iconics and say to them, "Yeah...see? Girls do rock!"
--Neil
Kind of off topic, but my 2 year old is in love with Vaan from Final Fantasy XII. She'll bring me the PS2 controller and demand that Vaan show up.
My 3-year old daughter watches 'Jane and the Dragon' by WETA, and has the same, mad, red hair, and piercing eyes.
And a plush green dragon.It's fun to tease her, when it's on; "Here comes the dragon! (flap, flap) Fly, fly up high! Throw the pumpkin at Gunther's dad! (boo, hiss)".
Spirited Away (Studio Ghibli) also gets a good airing in our house; (everybody together, now...) "Here comes the Smelly Monster! YAK!"
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You should be careful Andrew...it's real easy to get in a tight spot on these boards, some real deep hot wet trouble, if you get my meaning. I could help you with that.
That's just so horribly wrong. Especially since I *know* it's Logue doing it.
Gaaahhh! I feel so...so...dirty....
Dang the jig is up!
I can't have any fun anymore! :-)
You, sir, are a tease...
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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BUT... if we presume the trends are still holding and mostly males are coming to the hobby, will these male newbies be willing to play cross-gender? I'm realy not convinced.
It's kind of a toss up, really. Quite a few males that I know like playing female characters in video games. That's probably because they're easier on the eyes.
Yet, and I know this for a fact, some people are pretty concerned about males playing females. For instance, in a homebrew campaign I was about to play in, before certain matters came about, I was going to play a female cleric, but then my DM got wet feet and forbid me from playing her.
This kind of upsetted me, since I wasn't the one looking up charts to find bust size.
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...Quite a few males that I know like playing female characters in video games. That's probably because they're easier on the eyes.
That, and the fact they tend to be quicker.
I want a character whose actions relate to the manic stream of orders flying form my mouth and fingers; not some fat sack of s**t, who moves like a brick...I'm looking forward to a Wii, and the 'nunchuck' controller, since I've always played every game like that!
LOL
Yet, and I know this for a fact, some people are pretty concerned about males playing females. For instance, in a homebrew campaign I was about to play in, before certain matters came about, I was going to play a female cleric, but then my DM got wet feet and forbid me from playing her...This kind of upset me, since I wasn't the one looking up charts to find bust size.
Sticking to male characters doesn't keep you free of this wierdness...
There's been many a time our PCs have been thrown into jail starkers, and out come the 2d4 (double 4; re-roll 1d4 and add)...
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Creative Director
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Let me just say that I am against the 3 to 1 ratio on the pre-rolled chars. It's just weird to me and my group to have a male running a female character. Sorry, I know a lot of you are in to that kind of thing. :(
If by "that kind of thing" you mean gender equality, I guess you're right.
In any event, I suspect most groups will make their own characters. The iconics are meant as much as for people who want to play RIGHT THEN and don't want to take the time to make their own characters as they are to be the "face" of our world. Demand was so high to see stats for our Dungeon iconics that presenting stats for the Pathfinder iconics seemed like a no-brainer—it's certainly not a requirement to play the adventure path with these characters, though. And anyway, if gender's that big of a deal breaker, it's simple enough to ignore/cut off the picture and change that F to an M.
In any case, if a 3 to 1 male to female ratio is okay for a party, then a 3 to 1 female to male ratio is just as valid.
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Sorry, I know a lot of you are in to that kind of thing. :(
I think what you meant to say is, "Sorry, I know a lot of you that a lot of you are secure in your sexuality." :p
Really, it's funny that the DM is expected to portray every NPC regardless of gender, but some people get weirded out when a player creates a character of the gender opposite their own. Even worse, is this prejudice usually only applies to males playing female characters--because lordy knows, it's fine if a girl decides to play a male character, just beware the guy playing a female character. Bleh!
Considering that two thirds of my players are women, I'm glad that the pregens in RotRL are weighted towards the female end. It kinda says, "Hey, female gamers--you're not an afterthought."
*runs for cover
lol
Don't let them bother you, I know what you mean cuz I used to play in a group like that.
Personally, in my campaign world we have this thing called sexism, and generally there are fewer female NPC adventurers than males. My gamers are 1/3 female, and only the girls play girls, but then they are all noobs, and that will get boring eventually. The female characters always have to deal with sexist pig NPCs.
Me? I like playing chicks, although they are frequently lesbians (ladies reading the thread all groan). I have played females in both D&D and Rolemaster, but by far the funniest gender mixing I made on with was when I played a gay Latino sniper for a sort of Cthulu homebrew GURPS special ops campaign about 10-15 years ago. The GM and the other players were all homophobic, which was exactly why I did it, and I had a great time causing them discomfort, although everyone got through it and the group dynamics took off real well after the initial moaning and general icky feelings they had. It helped that my character saved everyone's lives repeatedly by holding good positions with lines of fire that always saved the day... and I rolled HOT. Out of combat I always radioed the other players and made crass remarks about their buttocks.
And no, I'm not gay.
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I'd love a job at Paizo...but I don't know if they need someone with my rarefied specialties. What do you say boys?
The wierd thing is; I can't read any of her posts without 'hearing' her voice (same goes for a few other regulars, too...).
Does anyone else remember the Cadbury's Caramel Rabbit...?
"Hii there, Mister Mole. Why're you always bizzying around? Take it eeeeaaasy, with Caaadbury's Caaaramel....."