There are quite a few ways for the dealings with Ahazu to be irreparably ruined. Maybe there's a paladin in the party who'd lose class features. Maybe the party has nobody with a high enough Diplomacy check to even try hitting DC 40. Maybe somebody gets sucked into the pool and annihilated and the players decide to avoid the obvious deathtrap. Maybe the PCs decide that getting information on the Prince of Demons is not worth leapfrogging another demon lord all the way up to the currently-vacant God of Demons position. Maybe Ahazu's minimum terms are considered too unreasonable. I have no doubt that many PC groups will not want to play along, but going by the plain-reading of Wells of Darkness, it seems the plot grinds to a halt unless you make the bargain.
So... Is there any *real* significance for the Tome of Infinite Spells, or is Freedom simply adequate to free Shami-Amourae? Freedom is, after all, the ultimate jailbreak spell in the game, and it is otherwise pretty underpowered as a 9th-level spell if it can't even do its job.
Maybe Ahazu is simply trying to get the party to offer themselves willingly? According to the text, Ahazu is seeking godhood by using the power of the trapped entities... if he always demands a more powerful sacrifice in trade for a freed servant, his "minimum demands" will always eventually result in somebody failing to procure the more powerful prisoner and becoming willing sacrifices themselves. If the party PCs don't fail now, then whomever comes along trying to free Demogorgon will fail in their place, since there aren't a whole lot of CR38 sacrifices out there.
If only the willing sacrifices are suitable for Ahazu's purposes, then that explains why he's so intent on making these deals, and it also explains why he spends the lives of his loyal followers so carelessly. Ultimately, the unwilling sacrifices are just bargaining chips by which to acquire more willing sacrifices. If the PCs make a foolish bargain with a demon here, they get a handy instruction manual for freeing Shami-Amourae, but freeing her was always within their power. If the PCs are willing to do the legwork, the research, and the trial-and-error, though, they can free Shami-Amourae and even set Ahazu's plan back indefinitely.
So... a few questions to James Jacobs, Eric Boyd, or whomever else ends up reading this. I would certainly roll with it if the PCs refused to deal with Ahazu, but I kind of what to hear the "official" opinions on the subject.
#1: Will any Freedom spell work, or does it have to be that particular Freedom spell?
#2: If it does have to be the Freedom spell from the book, what's the Use Magic Device DC to fool Shami-Amourae's Well of Darkness into thinking a regular Freedom spell is from the book?
#3: If there is no way around bargaining with Ahazu, how do Paladins get to Enemy of My Enemy without losing all their class features? They can skip dealing with Orcus and whatnot and just face a somewhat more powerful Demogorgon in the end, but how do they bypass this part here?
#4: Isn't feeding sacrifices to a Demon Lord a little bit more over-the-top EEE-VIL than has been customary so far in the adventure path? Seriously, most of the characters I've played over the years would refuse to sacrifice a living being to a demon, even if that living being was a bad guy. I would have to imagine there are a lot of other players out there who would also refuse. This really isn't a shade of grey.
#5: Anybody else got an idea on what sort of thing might work to get Shami-Amourae out? It can be a lot harder, as long as it is more appropriate to ruthlessness-challenged PCs.
Creative Director
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#1: Will any Freedom spell work, or does it have to be that particular Freedom spell?
As written and intended, it requires that particular spell to free Shami-Amourae; the spell as much as the source (from a book important to Shami's mythos and history) comprise the ticket out of the well. If just any old freedom spell can free her (or any of the other prisoners from the other wells) then the Wells of Darkness isn't a very effective prison, given the nature of how many powerful creatures are locked up in there; if that were the case, more than four would have escaped over the eons. The method for releasing a prisoner from the wells differs from prisoner to prisoner; Ahazu knows how to release most of them, but not all of them. Figuring out how to release another prisoner should more or less amount to an adventure's worth of effort, if not an entire campaign.
#2: If it does have to be the Freedom spell from the book, what's the Use Magic Device DC to fool Shami-Amourae's Well of Darkness into thinking a regular Freedom spell is from the book?
I'd set such a check to be Really High. High enough so that it'd take an 18th-level character who specializes in that skill to even have a chance. So, assuming a character with Skill Focus, a 24 Charisma, and max ranks of 21 (for a total of +31), I'd set it as a DC 50 check. In order to take 20 on such an attempt, you'd have to be a warlock (or some other character who bypasses the "natural 1 on a UMD check is not a failure" element of that skill) who can cast freedom twenty times without a chance of failing at casting the spell. Seems restrictive enough to me to explain why other creatures haven't released Shami already.
#3: If there is no way around bargaining with Ahazu, how do Paladins get to Enemy of My Enemy without losing all their class features? They can skip dealing with Orcus and whatnot and just face a somewhat more powerful Demogorgon in the end, but how do they bypass this part here?
They would probably be "put on probation" by working with Ahazu, and can come off probation by defeating Shami after she's freed, for example (hopefully with the support of their party), or by having a cleric of their order cast atonement on them. It's a bad thing, but it's also for the greater good, so I'd say that the paladin's deity should be willing to make an exception as long as the paladin him/herself feels honestly bad about it and seeks an atonement. Personally, I wouldn't even go that far if I were running the campaign. The gods are smart, after all. They're capable of judging things themselves, and in a case like this, if it was important enough for them to punish a paladin for taking part in freeing Shami-Amourae so they could learn how to prevent Demogorgon from driving the world insane, they should show up on the Wells of Darkness at the last minute (or at least, should send a powerful aspect or minion) to help the paladin kill Shami-Amourae after she was released and reveals her info.
#4: Isn't feeding sacrifices to a Demon Lord a little bit more over-the-top EEE-VIL than has been customary so far in the adventure path? Seriously, most of the characters I've played over the years would refuse to sacrifice a living being to a demon, even if that living being was a bad guy. I would have to imagine there are a lot of other players out there who would also refuse. This really isn't a shade of grey.
I don't have a copy of the adventure handy, so remind me where in the adventure you're forced to sacrifice a creature to a demon lord in order to progress? If I remember right, that's one of the "optional" routes. The adventure should be set up so that returning the tooth of Ahazu is the "correct" way to deal with Ahazu; if the PCs have lost or sold the tooth, they'll just need to go on a quick side trek to track it down and get it back. They shouldn't have been able to destroy it, since it's an artifact.
#5: Anybody else got an idea on what sort of thing might work to get Shami-Amourae out? It can be a lot harder, as long as it is more appropriate to ruthlessness-challenged PCs.
It should absolutely be hard to do, since this is something that the gods themselves must tread carefully about intervening about. But a big part of this adventure (and the ones to come) is that, in order to fight Demogorgon, the PCs must ally themselves with some bad folk and must wrestle with the moral consequences of how far they're willing to go to defeat the Prince of Demons. If defeating Demogorgon was simply a matter of gaining enough Hit Dice and potent magic items, anyone could have done it. Defeating Demogorgon should be hard, and it should involve difficulty not just on a game-crunch standpoint, but on the roleplay standpoint as well.
All that said, yeah. Paladins and lawful good clerics are going to have a rough time during the later stages of Savage Tide, as did rogues and spellcasters who focused on enchantment effects in Age of Worms (all those undead!!). If you're running Savage Tide and have high-moral ground PCs in your group, you'll need to watch closely how they handle the "work with the bad guys" elements throughout the campaign to determine how rough the last few adventures are going to be on them. If necessary, they should have some atonement spells handy, just as they should have restoration spells if they're going into a den of level drainers.
I don't have a copy of the adventure handy, so remind me where in the adventure you're forced to sacrifice a creature to a demon lord in order to progress? If I remember right, that's one of the "optional" routes. The adventure should be set up so that returning the tooth of Ahazu is the "correct" way to deal with Ahazu; if the PCs have lost or sold the tooth, they'll just need to go on a quick side trek to track it down and get it back. They shouldn't have been able to destroy it, since it's an artifact.
Well, that's ultimately the part that bothers me the most. On page 76, under "Sealing the Pact":
If they do not think to offer the Tooth of Ahazu, Ahazu demands any CR 24 creature as a sacrifice.
If they do offer the Tooth of Ahazu, Ahazu will only demand a CR 19 creature as a sacrifice in addition to the trinket.
Once the PCs make either bargain, they have 66 days to follow through, or No-Save-Just-TPK. Ahazu collects a bunch of CR 18+ sacrifices and the PCs don't even get to roll.
So ultimately, there's no way to avoid sacrificing a creature to the demon lord. The creature need not be alive, but its soul gets cast out of reality just the same whether it is alive or not. Eventually (cosmic time) Ahazu will consume the sacrifice to power his apotheosis.
Was this an oversight during editing, then? From what you said, it sounds like it was supposed to be possible to get by without the demonic sacrifice. Speaking in cosmic time, helping Ahazu is possibly much worse than just letting Demogorgon have his way with one minor Prime. In the short term, players have no reason to expect it to be easy to collect a CR 24 creature, and they have barely two months to locate, isolate, and capture or kill this APL+6 target. Which will have minions, and attempt to teleport away before it dies, and who knows what else.
But a big part of this adventure (and the ones to come) is that, in order to fight Demogorgon, the PCs must ally themselves with some bad folk and must wrestle with the moral consequences of how far they're willing to go to defeat the Prince of Demons. If defeating Demogorgon was simply a matter of gaining enough Hit Dice and potent magic items, anyone could have done it. Defeating Demogorgon should be hard, and it should involve difficulty not just on a game-crunch standpoint, but on the roleplay standpoint as well.
There seems to me to be a rather large gap between telling Orcus, "Next Friday is the big day. If we happen to see any of your minions in Monkey-Boy's capital, we won't kill them if they don't kill us," and personally sacrificing a powerful soul to a demon lord so he can consume its being, unmaking it utterly and irrevocably. I can well imagine players saying, "Okay, that's obviously the 'Bad End' we're supposed to ignore. Now what do we have to do to figure out what we're actually supposed to do?"
Sacrificing a creature is kind of an overly broad description of what really happens. Ahazu is using these prisoners to feed himself, yes, and he wants to become a god. Imprisoning Demogorgon will speed him toward his goal, but swapping Shami-Amourae for another equal prisoner won't speed Ahazu any closer to his goal than he is now.
Being imprisoned in the wells does beging to break down the being, but it doesn't permanently destroy them. It really is like imprisoning them. So it seems to me that this does change the "tone" of what we are discussing here.
It doesn't seem to me that a Lawful Good character would have a hard time imprisoning a powerful being in a prison locking it away from harming anyone in the multiverse and keeping it from reforming elsewhere. And if they don't feel that Ahazu is gaining anything, I don't think this should affect their alignment, assuming they don't round up an angel or an eladrin or the like to throw into the pool.
Imprisoning a being in the Wells of Darkness seems like a different thing entirely than "sacrificing" a being to Ahazu. It really seems like the beings imprisoned are kind of like the people in the Matrix movies, beings held in suspension to provide power for Ahazu.
Yeah, this enters grey area, but I don't think its quite as evil as you may be picturing it.
Whew! It sure is a good thing that the most benevolent PC I have in the STAP is the womanizing CN bard.
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Creative Director
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Was this an oversight during editing, then? From what you said, it sounds like it was supposed to be possible to get by without the demonic sacrifice. Speaking in cosmic time, helping Ahazu is possibly much worse than just letting Demogorgon have his way with one minor Prime. In the short term, players have no reason to expect it to be easy to collect a CR 24 creature, and they have barely two months to locate, isolate, and capture or kill this APL+6 target. Which will have minions, and attempt to teleport away before it dies, and who knows what else.
Ah; I see where the concern is from.
The adventure is indeed set up so that the PCs should turn in the tooth to Ahazu and therefore have only the CR 19+ requirement. As far as "sacrifice" goes... that doesn't mean laying a creature down on an altar and stabbing it with a knife. It basically means that at some point after they seal their bargain with Ahazu that some creature they defeat must be placed in Shami Amourae's well to replace her. Any CR 19+ (or CR 24+ if they don't have the tooth) will do. During the course of the next two adventures, they'll encounter MANY CR 19+ creatures that deserve imprisonment, and a few CR 24+ as well that deserve imprisonment. And yes... imprisoning a creature in a Well of Darkness (which is basically the same as "sacrificing them to Ahazu") isn't necessarily any more evil than killing them or imprisoning them in a normal jail, especially when the creature you're imprisoning is one (like all of the prisoners in the wells) that can escape pretty much any lesser prison.
Now... all that said, keep in mind that the last few adventures aren't out yet. There may just be a way to defeat Demogorgon and Ahazu and come out of it all good. And Ahazu becoming a god may not be what he thinks it will be.
In other words, I have to leave SOME surprises for the last adventure! :)
Actually the prison held one balor... and supposedly you could extract the cage as such, and just throw it in cage and all.. still powerless to resist :D ?
There are also other routes.. like that book of infinite spells (dont have the magasine yet..), just could contain the Ice assassin spell... perfect for your tooth!!!
Or have some senior archmage do it for you, perhaps a fellow member in those organisations? Just for a chance to chat with a demonlord once all is said and done.. heck could even use the eschew material, ie you keep tyhe tooth but get the demonlord copy.
Hey, id be willing to burn 5K xp at level 20 for some younglings, esp if i get to make a copy of a infamous demonlord for myself too.. lol ...and some future conideration left unspecified (ie future adventure)
Or even pay the xp with those larva.. a "mere" 500 needed for each copy :D
In other words, there are always ways around.
Once the PCs make either bargain, they have 66 days to follow through, or No-Save-Just-TPK. Ahazu collects a bunch of CR 18+ sacrifices and the PCs don't even get to roll.
You dont have to make it a TPK ;)
Be more devious.. ie they all feel terribe pain and collapse.. and wake up a bit later.. seemingly bargain fulfilled.. weirdly enough.Heck, maybe even some other bonus like a ability score bounus.
Don't explain it, let them figure out their own conclusions, perhaps the gods aided them for doublecrossing a demonlord. Now they have Ahazu as PERFECTLY OBEDIENT THRALL!!!
Adventure continues, and with all their bonuses they are more likely to succeed.. hey, fewer tpk:s are always good.. lol
Anyway, once they win and demogorgon is defeated, reveal to them that everything was just in the matrix and that the levels they have gained while dreaming in their cells just has served to make ahazu more powerful :D :D
Add to it, that he hired a team of his own, and used the very same strategy in defeating demogorgon as had the dreaming minds of the players dreamt up :D
Buahhahahahaha!!!
I have a question. How did the other four demons escape the wells of darkness?
some band of dastardly cutthroats needed their services and freed them? ;)
After reading all this, I've got a bad feeling that that last Savage Tide adventures are going to be like the nightmare that was Planescape....PCs get railroaded.
After reading all this, I've got a bad feeling that that last Savage Tide adventures are going to be like the nightmare that was Planescape....PCs get railroaded.
There's always going to be an unavoidable amount of railroading in a prewritten campaign, but I'd hardly despair yet. While I wasn't impressed with the final few adventures in Shackled City, Paizo seems to have learned a lot since then, and the outline for Enemies of my Enemy seemed to at least imply it's relatively non-linear.
Besides, with the resources available to 19th+ level characters, they're actually REALLY HARD to railroad! Divinations, wishes, DC 40+ Gather Info and Diplomacy checks, transportation and conjuration magic all give them a vast array of options, and the players by now know how to leverage their PCs far more effectively than the GM knows his NPCs. I'm sure there'll be a simpler course of action, for the more straightforwardly-inclined groups, but more thoughtful parties will have a massive range of options open to them. One obvious gambit I can think of, for instance, is actually going to find one of the past escapees from the Wells (I'm pretty sure some of them are still alive, since they're unageing immortals) and asking them how they did it...
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Creative Director
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After reading all this, I've got a bad feeling that that last Savage Tide adventures are going to be like the nightmare that was Planescape....PCs get railroaded.
That's something that we're very consciously trying to avoid, but in a pre-written adventure, it's not something that can (or should) be avoided completely. "Into the Maw" does a great job at presenting the situation (your friend is captured; save her!) without making only one solution work. You can fight your way in, you can play factions off each other, use stealth, etc. Lots of options.
"Wells of Darkness" is a bit more linear, and it does railroad the PCs a bit. It's also pretty short, compared to the other adventures in the Savage Tide. Making an adventure less railroady takes a lot more room, and in that issue, we just didn't have the room to expand far out from the base storyline.
The last two adventures are CERTAINLY not railroads... especially "Enemies of My Enemy," which presents the PCs with the "You need to gather an army" plot but then presents a bunch of different scenarios that can be tackled in any order (and maybe not at all in some cases).
Anyway... "Wells of Darkness" does have a bottleneck where the PCs have to deal with Ahazu in order to get to Shami-Amourae. But as mentioned above, the PCs at this point are 18th level. If they do something particularly impressive, there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to go off the rails and accomplish stuff on their own. It's up to the DM.
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Creative Director
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I have a question. How did the other four demons escape the wells of darkness?
That information has not been revealed, and won't be revealed in the course of Savage Tide. Those other four are incidental to the plot, and keeping the methods of their release secret allows individual DMs the opportunity to customize them to his/her campaign.
Had we more room, a subplot involving an investigation of how one of those prisons was breeched as an alternate way to free Shami-Amourae was certainly one of several elements I had in mind to speak with Eric about expanding the adventure... but the magazine format has pretty strict limits on adventure size.
For what it's worth, I don't think that in most campaign settings allowing a Freedom spell to free Shami-Amourae is either "too easy" or "implausible". Look at Greyhawk. There are probably less than two dozen level 17+ casters in the entire campaign setting who could conceivably know Freedom. Look at Eberron. There are fewer than five such casters. Of these casters, they'd have to pay a stiff opportunity cost to actually know it. Sorcerors would basically never take Freedom; it is just plain stupid to choose it over Time Stop or Shapechange as one of your only ninth-level spells known. Wizards are a little better off, but the fact remains that Freedom is almost completely useless for being a ninth-level spell. Probably no caster in either Greyhawk or Eberron knows Freedom, and that means it can't be bought even if it is within the DMG's price limits.
Similarly, Freedom is basically absent from SLA lists in all the Monster Manuals I remember seeing, can't be duped with Wish or Miracle, and as a divine spell exists only on one extremely obscure domain. A Ring of Freedom of Movement does basically everything Freedom does in combat, and outside of combat there's almost always a workaround, even if it involves smashing the entrapment mechanism to rubble. Essentially, casters in this AP are going to be forced to quest for the legendary Freedom spell one way or another, whether they deal with Ahazu or not. If they actually had the foresight (or more likely, cheated) to pick Freedom as a spell pick, then they should be rewarded for this, shouldn't they? They sure won't be rewarded in combat for having it.
Even if Freedom works, all parties interested in freeing Shami-Amourae from the Wells of Darkness need a whole list of things:
#1: You need the inclination to free a hideously dangerous being from imprisonment.
#2: You need a L17+ caster.
#3: You need a ninth-level spell that nobody picks because it is not very useful or cost-effective for any other purpose.
#4: You need to know that the ninth-level spell in question actually works, because probably nobody else has done it before and probably wouldn't tell you even if it did, because who really wants to help out somebody who wants to free a hideously dangerous demon princess from imprisonment?
#5: You need a team of high-CR allies that can break through and protect your L17+ caster from the active guardians set there by interested parties, and the incidental scavengers wandering through.
#6: You need to do this quickly and with low enough profile that Demogorgon doesn't notice and dispatch even stronger active guardians to stop you until you give up or die of old age.
Shami-Amourae's broken cult cannot possibly field operatives capable of doing this. Probably none of the other imprisoned vestiges can do so either. If any of them did, they certainly wouldn't spread that knowledge and thereby allow their rivals to escape as well. Unless you're playing a gonzo campaign setting like FR or Dicefreaks version of Planescape where ninth-level spells are only the middle of the food chain, getting access to Freedom is going to be a major sidequest that is at least as challenging as collecting a CR 24 creature for demon sacrifice.
And yes, making the pact is a "demonic sacrifice" and not just "imprisonment". "Once a character is drawn into Shattered Night, his body and soul are absorbed and become one with Ahazu -- given enough absorbed lives, Ahazu can emerge from Shattered night as a god. This is the true purpose of his self-imposed imprisonment." The fact that the final absorption of the prisoners is delayed for an indefinite period of time does not mean the act of sacrifice is any less Evil. If you deliver a sacrifice into the maw of a demon, the fact that the demon waits until you die before biting down does not make it any less of a demonic sacrifice. I don't think this situation is at all similar to the situation with Tlaloc's Tear in Golismorga.
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Creative Director
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In the end, as long as it makes sense for the campaign, allowing any freedom spell to work to release Shami-Amourae should be fine, as long as your players aren't inclined to question why no one else has been able to free the demon from the well. This includes anyone using a scroll of freedom—something that all high-level sorcerers can do (saying that most sorcerers won't pick freedom as a spell in no way prevents one from using the spell from a scroll). Which, in most campaigns, basically boils down to just going to any city with a GP limit of 3,825 gp or more (like Sasserine) to buy a scroll of freedom.
In any event, providing the spell to the party via a book of infinite spells takes care of the fact that some parties won't have people who can cast the spell. Non-spellcasters can cast spells from a book of infinite spells, after all, so that if you don't have anyone in the group who can cast the spell, you can still do so from the book.
If none of these solutions work for your group, then by all means you should adjust/adapt the adventure to your players, in the same way that you should adapt an all-undead adventure for a group that features lots of rogues and no clerics. There's no way that a pre-written adventure can work for every group combination out there; that's why the DM is the most important part of the game, really. He's the one who takes an adventure and makes it work for his group, after all!
In the end, as long as it makes sense for the campaign, allowing any freedom spell to work to release Shami-Amourae should be fine, as long as your players aren't inclined to question why no one else has been able to free the demon from the well.
Not so hard for me. I'm running the campaign in Eberron, where there are basically no L17+ casters, and those few there are probably don't want to journey to the depths of Khyber to free a fiend.
DM's running in FR or with 2E Planescape cosmology would have a much more difficult time explaining why nobody else has succeeded, since they have much more powerful NPCs and a bunch of ECL 20+ encounters end up being a speed bump at best to the top tiers of the setting.
This includes anyone using a scroll of freedom—something that all high-level sorcerers can do (saying that most sorcerers won't pick freedom as a spell in no way prevents one from using the spell from a scroll). Which, in most campaigns, basically boils down to just going to any city with a GP limit of 3,825 gp or more (like Sasserine) to buy a scroll of freedom.
I know that's a common way to interpret that passage of the DMG, but I don't think it is the best way. I think the passage is meant to give the upper limits of what could appear in that city, and the DM is supposed to consider other factors when deciding whether something is available. For instance, even inexpensive poisons are harder to find in a community dominated by a cathedral to St. Cuthbert, and caster level X magic items are harder to find in communities without caster level X casters. Maybe not impossible, but certainly the guidelines in the DMG are just guidelines and not inflexible rules.
If we disregard Sorcerors and Clerics with the obscure Liberation Domain, the only possible sources for a Freedom scroll are Warlocks, Artificers, and Wizards that wasted a spell known on a fairly useless spell. If there are no such characters around to craft it, then you simply cannot buy a Freedom scroll, no matter what the cost would normally be.
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Creative Director
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If we disregard Sorcerors and Clerics with the obscure Liberation Domain, the only possible sources for a Freedom scroll are Warlocks, Artificers, and Wizards that wasted a spell known on a fairly useless spell.
In Eberron, that's certainly the case. But Eberron is not standard D&D, which is what Savage Tide is aimed at. In an Eberron version of the campaign, setting the requirement for freeing Shami-Amourae as any freedom spell is fine, but in most D&D campaigns there needs to be additional steps to explain why she hasn't been freed already. And that's why the adventure makes it as difficult as it does to free her.
Honestly... you can even rework the adventure so that you DON'T have to free her to get the information. Perhaps rather than making deals and pacts with Ahazu, the PCs instead need to defeat him or do something else at his pool under Overlook in order to get the information from Shami-Amourae. This requires a much more extensive bit of reworking on the DM's part, and takes the adventure away from the campaign's overarching themes of allying with lesser evils to defeat a greater evil, but if it works better for your campiagn style, go for it!
Why WOULDN'T anyone else freed Shami-Amourae to begin with is the same reason I think why even though raise dead and resurrection spells abounds in D&D, not many of the dead comes back to life.
These spells require the cooperation of the soul of the deceased to work and no good aligned souls who's currently enjoying their rewards in Elysium or the Heavens would want to go back to the Prime. Evil aligned souls would certainly cooperate so they can escape their torment in the lower planes...and anybody who would want to raise them are few and far between.
Thus nobody wants to free her because nobody wanted to or have a reason to.
DM's running in FR or with 2E Planescape cosmology would have a much more difficult time explaining why nobody else has succeeded, since they have much more powerful NPCs and a bunch of ECL 20+ encounters end up being a speed bump at best to the top tiers of the setting.
First off, there are still quite a few important NPCs in Greyhawk that would be more than able to create a Freedom scroll, and even in 3rd/3.5, if you assume that Greyhawk's history has magically "rebooted" and nothing from 2nd or 1st edition happened unless its mentioned in a 3rd edition book, Greyhawk uses the "Core" cosmology, which is directly tied to Sigil and Union. There should still be, without any old 1st and 2nd edition lore added, be plenty of casters there that have come up with and can cast Freedom.
Not terribly cogent to your point, as you are running this in Eberron, but I just wanted to avoid the whole "FR has too many high level NPCs" arguement, especially given that Oerth is connected to these massive planar cities.
As far as the rest of your arguement goes, I still don't see the fact that Ahazu could potentially absorb them eventually and end up boosting his power because of it as the same as sacrificing a being to Ahazu. Think of it this way . . . if a party captures an assasin in Zhentil Keep or Thay, and the assasin is wanted by the authorities there, and you turn him over, the Zhents or the Thayans might glean information from him to aid them, they might recruit him as a member of their organization, or they might kill him and animate him as an undead beastie. But turning him over isn't an evil act, especially if you have no good options, like trying to drag him all the way back to the Dales or Cormyr while enraging the local authorities.
It does seem like you have a problem with good aligned characters doing anything that might eventually aid an evil being. Part of what makes situations like this fun is the roleplaying oppourtunities. My cleric of Ilmater would hate to have to deal with something like this, but at the same time, if he saw the absolute evil that will result if he doesn't do anything, and realized that evil might be done in the long term if he does this, but it will be done if its not, then he would do it.
On the other hand, he may, after all the dust clears, go back home, try to convince his order of the threat that Ahazu poses, and might even end up devoting a few epic level adventures to making sure that Ahazu ends up further behind than he was when the situation started.
Also, I do think that the wild, freebooting feel of the early part of the campaign is a bit of a clue as to how this path would progress. Its certainly not impossible to be LG as a character in it, but isn't the most likely, or easiest, course. Most "swashbuckling" characters tend to be at the very least ethically neutral, if not chaotic, and LG characters are likely to have bumped into a few problems before this adventure came along.
In fact, it might even be an interesting roleplaying experience to have a character become a bit more jaded due to the course of this adventure path. While this is problematic for a paladin, my LG cleric of Ilmater might come out of this world weary and NG instead of LG . . . just to give an example.
Freedom's so fantastic of a spell--considering it's the only thing that can break imprisonment--that I would outline it early on amongst a set of spells that are either not available at their standard level, or that are "epic" in nature.
I used to be opposed to the idea of restricting certain spells/abilities, saying that if it was printed, and was Wizards-sanctioned, it was fair game. Well, things change...
Freedom is not currently "banned" in my game, but it is a spell worth considering, as is its counterpart, imprisonment. (Certainly, the Book of Exalted Feats spell "Exalted Fury" is, but that's another can of worms.)
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For what it's worth, I don't think that in most campaign settings allowing a Freedom spell to free Shami-Amourae is either "too easy" or "implausible". Look at Greyhawk. There are probably less than two dozen level 17+ casters in the entire campaign setting who could conceivably know Freedom. Look at Eberron. There are fewer than five such casters. Of these casters, they'd have to pay a stiff opportunity cost to actually know it. Sorcerors would basically never take Freedom; it is just plain stupid to choose it over Time Stop or Shapechange as one of your only ninth-level spells known. Wizards are a little better off, but the fact remains that Freedom is almost completely useless for being a ninth-level spell. Probably no caster in either Greyhawk or Eberron knows Freedom, and that means it can't be bought even if it is within the DMG's price limits.
Remember the Maure Castle adventure in (IIRC) #112? The gnoll cleric got hold of some chunk of Eli Tormorast's body (tongue?) and worked her way up to a level at which she could cast Resurrection. An ally or lover of S-A might well have done the same with the specific intent of taking Freedom if any ol' version sufficed.
First off, there are still quite a few important NPCs in Greyhawk that would be more than able to create a Freedom scroll, and even in 3rd/3.5, if you assume that Greyhawk's history has magically "rebooted" and nothing from 2nd or 1st edition happened unless its mentioned in a 3rd edition book, Greyhawk uses the "Core" cosmology, which is directly tied to Sigil and Union. There should still be, without any old 1st and 2nd edition lore added, be plenty of casters there that have come up with and can cast Freedom.
Hold it. 2E Planescape is not default D&D, either, and it certainly isn't Greyhawk, where Savage Tide is set by default. In Greyhawk, demon lords have CRs like 19 or 28, very much in range of mortal aggression. In Greyhawk, the CR 19 form of Shami-Amourae CAN be locked in the Wells of Darkness, because that's her true form. It wouldn't make any sense at all if Demogorgon could poke a single Aspect of Shami-Amourae in a Well and all of her other Aspects, as well as her true form, all mysteriously disappeared at that same moment for no apparent reason.
In Planescape, demon lords are part of their layer, and you cannot confront them by normal means any more than you can stab to death the concept of lust or rage or hunger. In Planescape, the story where Demogorgon casts Shami-Amourae into the Wells of Darkness is at least partially metaphorical, because both Demogorgon and Shami-Amourae are at least partially metaphorical as well. Constructs of idealism rather than material.
In any case, Planescape canon has been retconned out of 3E campaign settings. Greyhawk might still use the Great Wheel as a cosmology, but it isn't exactly the same Great Wheel as that used in Planescape, any more than is the new cosmologies of FR or DL. Planescape is now a separate setting that happens to include a parallel Greyhawk and FR and whatever else you want.
As far as the rest of your arguement goes, I still don't see the fact that Ahazu could potentially absorb them eventually and end up boosting his power because of it as the same as sacrificing a being to Ahazu. Think of it this way . . . if a party captures an assasin in Zhentil Keep or Thay, and the assasin is wanted by the authorities there, and you turn him over, the Zhents or the Thayans might glean information from him to aid them, they might recruit him as a member of their organization, or they might kill him and animate him as an undead beastie. But turning him over isn't an evil act, especially if you have no good options, like trying to drag him all the way back to the Dales or Cormyr while enraging the local authorities.
There is a HUGE difference between turning over a criminal to a recognized legal authority who MIGHT abuse his or her authority, and turning the criminal over to a DEMON that you are absolutely certain wants to EAT HIS SOUL, because that's an integral part of what it means to be a demon.
Sorry, SO not a grey area.
Remember the Maure Castle adventure in (IIRC) #112? The gnoll cleric got hold of some chunk of Eli Tormorast's body (tongue?) and worked her way up to a level at which she could cast Resurrection. An ally or lover of S-A might well have done the same with the specific intent of taking Freedom if any ol' version sufficed.
Yeah... Shami-Amourae is a CR 19 demon lord. That's pretty much the very bottom of the demon lord hierarchy. The majority of her allies are succubi, and any Succubus Wizard 17 that has just picked up Freedom is going to realize that she is already more powerful than her former master, and there is no reason to free Shami-Amourae when she can be the new Shami-Amourae. Shami-Amourae's allies are demons. Her only followers that stuck with an imprisoned third-rate demon lord are the ones that were too abjectly incompetent to find other work. And it isn't like anybody actually knows in advance that Freedom will work.
Well, it seems to me that we just don't agree on several aspects of this, so I'm not sure that any of my points will do much to help you sort through this.
My point about Sigil, and the reason that I mentioned Union, is that 3rd/2.5 uses the Great Wheel, and Union and Sigil are both massive in terms of population. Even if you suspend any logic and assume that THIS Sigil is a different Sigil, both of these cities, by virtue of how D&D population rules work, would have (if you will, unnamed), NPCs high enough level to cast freedom, which is a cogent point considering this takes plane not on Oerth by in the Abyss.
Given that CR is an abstract term, its fairly easy to see that Shami Amourae, who is not suppose to be an exceedingly powerful demon lord, can be replaced with a powerful creature that is on the verge of powerful demon/demon lord. From the point of view of the "story" all that matters is that you are negotiating between a powerful, but not powerful in terms of the "big guns" of the Abyss, creature, and one that would truly be a big gun.
If you interpret that anything that benefits an demon lord is inherantly an evil act to perform, then I guess you don't have many options left to you if you want a good aligned party that wishes to stay that way play through this. You'll likely have to rework a good deal of this or at least come up with another option. I don't think that most of the people I game with or have talked to about D&D would interpret this this way (although its not a good act, certainly). But I can understand your reticence to run it this way.
I do think this is interesting, however, given Eberron's statement that alignment is "looser" in that setting.
I hope you enjoy the rest of the adventure path and come up with an intersting solution for your players, and I'd be interested in seeing how this works out for you.
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Creative Director
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Actually... I've been doing my best to make sure that the Abyss sections of Savage Tide DO fit in with Planescape canon, and can be run in a Planescape campaign with ease. There's a reason why I hired the guy who helped invent the Planescape setting to write the adventure with the most Plane Hopping in it, after all...
Planescape actually still works fairly well with Forgotten Realms, to be honest; a lot of their outer planes work well with that stuff. In any event, the Great Wheel predates Planescape by like 15-20 years. Throwing all of that development and tradition out is a terrible error. It should remain the default outer plane model for D&D, and because of that, it's the way we treat things in Savage Tide's outer planes adventures.
If you interpret that anything that benefits an demon lord is inherantly an evil act to perform, then I guess you don't have many options left to you if you want a good aligned party that wishes to stay that way play through this.
Straw. Man. Offering a few trinkets like the Tooth of Ahazu to a demon is one thing. Offering the soul of a being of epic, primeval power to a demon so that demon can render it down into nothingness to power its own apotheosis is another thing entirely.
Look, let's assume for a moment that utilitarianism is at all relevant to the D&D mythos, in spite of the evidence to the contrary. And let's assume that making Ahazu the God of Demons is not obviously worse on a utilitarian basis than simply allowing Demogorgon to remain Prince of Demons. Is there any non-metagaming reason for PCs to make the deal?
If Ahazu gets them to make the deal, he either exchanges a CR 19 sacrifice for a CR 24 sacrifice or multiple CR 18+ sacrifices. Either way, he's better off. If the PCs can use the deal to beat Demogorgon, so much the better for Ahazu, but clearly Ahazu wins every way this can play out.
In contrast, the PCs are expected to go find a CR 24 sacrifice or become the sacrifices. Even alone, a suitable sacrifice would be APL+6, and such beings are unlikely to be alone. So most likely, the PCs all die, and so does everyone in their crew on the Sea Wyvern and maybe even acquaintances in Farshore and Sasserine. (since it is unlikely Ahazu can actually recognize the difference between PCs and NPCs, and the consequences of failure applies to the entire group and not just the character making the pact) In exchange, they MIGHT get useful data from the prisoner. They believe they might get useful data from the prisoner because a DEMON told them she MIGHT have something worth hearing.
Were I a player in a situation like this, no matter the alignment of my PC I cannot think of a reason why my PC would accept such an obviously unfair deal. If there are no alternative solutions, the DM would inevitably be forced to break character and say, "Look, the module says you have to make the pact. Don't worry; I'll make sure nothing too bad happens. Now quit stalling the game."
For what it's worth, I plan to allow any reasonable plan the PCs try to work, after I throw in a couple complications for them to resolve. It is unfortunate that fiscal realities and space constraints limited the alternatives in the module, but at least I'll have many months to work something out before my own players gets to this point.
Please talking about strawmen.. you dont have to be any more linear than what you like. If anything the way is open for any way to get the relevant data.. or even screw getting it.
Its not like a good army collected with sword&spell couldnt get demogorgon slain aswell.. okie, so he will be a bit tougher, so what.. inventroduce some nice artifacts to even the fight.
Perhaps whoever has the tooth i their mouth can deliver even more lethal grappling? Spheres of annihilation taking half the hp etc.. perhaps even gaining a ally.. someone with a burning eye and a flaming sword dealing 20d6 dmg, someone who happens to be the current ruler of occipitus and can offer to take over the maw aswell.. :D
Okie, i know, avoid giving the scene to NPC:s.. but some aid sure wouldnt hurt.. maybe just enough to bring down powerlevels thru one trick or another, turning the abyss itself against demogorgon or some other nice excuse when 5+ demonlords unite against one!?! Just to get that weakening shamis secret was supposed to be all about..
And I have mentioned the opportunity of having a powered up simulcra of ahazu created (ice assassin to be exact), id be surprised if there werent willing archmages to do the job. The black scrolls especially would fall all over themselves for the chance!!! They would likely insist on getting to keep the tooth, but never mind that! You now have a ahazu copy, that perhaps thru whatever magical power of being the free lord, can get shami out all by himself?
Given that wizards are not limited in their number of spells known, I don't think it should be at all uncommon for high-level wizards to have access to the spell. Surely the likes of Tenser and Mordenkainen have it in their libraries, and it's probably recorded somewhere in the libraries of the University of Magical Arts, the Tower of the Silent Ones, and other such centers of magical learning. Sure, not everyone has it, but anyone powerful enough to contemplate freeing beings from the Wells of Darkness could presumably get ahold of the spell fairly easily--maybe with a little sidequest or something at most. And even a mid-level cultist could conceivably get hold of a scroll of the spell and cast it. Jailbreaks from the Wells would certainly be a bit more common if that's all it takes. This is high-level play. Just as you don't consider most diseases to be much of a challenge for parties with a 5th level cleric, ordinary imprisonments aren't going to be much of a challenge for parties with a 17th or 18th level arcane caster. The whole point is for the PCs to face both physical challenges and moral dilemmas.
As for the "sacrifice," given the clear and present danger to the world that the PCs know and love, Ahazu's apotheosis (which carries unknown dangers, but none that clearly and immediately threaten the world) is the lesser of two evils--and the implication is that the PCs will consign the Big D to the Wells when it's all over. What better place to put their greatest adversary? The PCs are cutting a deal with an evil Power (which is of course perilous), but not abasing themselves to that Power by any means. It's kind of like Roosevelt and Churchill cutting a deal with Stalin because Hitler is even worse (or at least is the more immediate danger). Doesn't mean you're Stalin's buddy when the war is over.
Why is there an assumption that the pc's know they are making Ahazu stronger by placing Demogorgon in the Wells of Darkness? I was under the impression that only Ahazu knows his exile is self-imposed and aimed at deific apotheosis. I don't think any of the other Demon Princes know, either. My players certainly won't know anything more than the Wells are a prison more secure than death. And I certainly won't punish them by stripping class features away because they unknowingly aided one distant evil in an attempt to stop a very immediate evil from killing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.
Personally, the pact aspect of this adventure was one of the only things I did like! It's so unusual and a very novel thing in D&D, not to mention a fun moral dilemma!
Yeah, so Freedom sucks. Got it. Now get over it! The fact that an entire plane of imprisonment requires the spell cast from one specific book with a connection to the prisoner not only adds flavor but makes complete sense to me. Of course there are rules that are unexpected, and only one way to free the prisoner. If it was easier, why wouldn't her cult have done it by now? Why wouldn't someone just come along and cast freedom on any of the prisoners they like? I mean, it only takes the PCs a couple of years in game time to gain that kind of power, surely NPCs could do it too.
Also, the players have no reason to suspect the prisoners empower Ahazu in any way. Until I read that, I figured he was just a bitter demon lord who enjoyed to watch imprisoned creatures, especially powerful ones.
So to the writer and James Jacobs and anyone else involved, I loved the pact aspect of this adventure. Not only is it a cool twist, but it solves the problem of "what do you do with an immortal being whose essence can just coalesce again after you defeat him?" Don't listen to the haters!
Why is there an assumption that the pc's know they are making Ahazu stronger by placing Demogorgon in the Wells of Darkness? I was under the impression that only Ahazu knows his exile is self-imposed and aimed at deific apotheosis. I don't think any of the other Demon Princes know, either. My players certainly won't know anything more than the Wells are a prison more secure than death. And I certainly won't punish them by stripping class features away because they unknowingly aided one distant evil in an attempt to stop a very immediate evil from killing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.
That wasnt the problem either, but the sacrifice of a CR 19 creature.. or even worse CR 24 creature..!!!
Goodie goodshoes just don't sacrifice to demonlords, no matter what..In addition to the problem of hunting down all those beasties..
Yeah lady Redshroud, there was one more thing we needed to discuss.. in private.. ok?
Roll bluff & sense motive..
Backstabbing commences..
Eric here.
I'm reading your comments (positive and negative) with interest.
I don't see any pending questions or concerns that James hasn't already answered or addressed, but feel free to ask if you do.
--Eric
That wasnt the problem either, but the sacrifice of a CR 19 creature.. or even worse CR 24 creature..!!!
Goodie goodshoes just don't sacrifice to demonlords, no matter what..In addition to the problem of hunting down all those beasties..
Yeah lady Redshroud, there was one more thing we needed to discuss.. in private.. ok?
Roll bluff & sense motive..
Backstabbing commences..
Re-read my post. My pc's won't be "sacrificing" anybody to Ahazu.
As far as they will know, Ahazu is the chief prisoner in an inescapable prison.
As far as they will know, placing a creature in an open Well is no different than placing a creature in a cell on Divided's Ire, only more secure.
If I then place my next campaign several hundred years in the future and make the world a dark and terrible reflection thanks to Ahazu gaining divinity faster with Demogorgon to feast on rather than Shami Amourae, and my players look at me and say "We did what?", well, that's just good old-fashioned evil DMing on my part.
ah, ok..
Yeah that makes sense, if its really seen as just that.
However, why not force the players to roll for sense motive..? Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.. :D
I was just under the expression that the negotiations with ahazu used the word sacrifice..
Well, still waiting for my copy. ;)
FWIW, whether to consider imprisoning a creature in Ahazu's prison a "sacrifice" or not is debatable. I'd argue its imprisonment with under a self-serving warden, not sacrifice, as the possibility always exists to rescue the prisoner.
Also note that the Abyss resurrects demon lords. So defeating them is pretty pointless if they are just going to reform after some time. You really need to figure out a way to take them out over the long term. This is one such fashion. In fact, if the PCs kill Demogorgon but don't imprison him, they've arguably been less effective at stopping him than if they do imprison him. (In other words, he'll be back much faster if you "just kill him".)
If you do consider imprisoning a generic creature in Shattered Night a sacrifice, I think its reasonable to consider demons an exception to this general characterization. Giving an incarnation of chaos and evil with no soul to another incarnation of chaos and evil to do further its own ambitions is a long way from the sacrifice of an innocent to defeat a greater evil.
Finally, note that there are solutions that might assuage even the most goody two-shoes paladin. For example, said paladin is likely to be equivalent to a CR 19 creature by the end of the 66 days. At the campaign end, the paladin might offer himself up to Ahazu as the CR 19 "sacrifice" to spare the entire party from being drawn into the Abyss. This might then lead to an epic campaign to "free the paladin by defeating Ahazu once and for all".
Other options include giving the tooth to Ahazu and then recapturing Shami. There's nothing to say that Shami can't be the CR 19 equivalent to herself. This has the effect of gathering the information required without pushing the status quo towards evil.
Just some thoughts.
--Eric
I do wonder about that abyssal lords reforming tho.. what if you destroy them on their own layer.. and destroy their reforming body.. while laying claim to that layer, becoming its new master?
That was the way to destroy another one.. ;)
ah, ok..
Yeah that makes sense, if its really seen as just that.
However, why not force the players to roll for sense motive..? Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.. :DI was just under the expression that the negotiations with ahazu used the word sacrifice..
Well, still waiting for my copy. ;)
Ikki your still waiting for your copy too? So am I, were are you located? I am In Connecticut, but you'd think I was from freakin' Mars considering how long It takes my magazine to get here!
DAve
Given that wizards are not limited in their number of spells known, I don't think it should be at all uncommon for high-level wizards to have access to the spell. Surely the likes of Tenser and Mordenkainen have it in their libraries, and it's probably recorded somewhere in the libraries of the University of Magical Arts, the Tower of the Silent Ones, and other such centers of magical learning. Sure, not everyone has it, but anyone powerful enough to contemplate freeing beings from the Wells of Darkness could presumably get ahold of the spell fairly easily--maybe with a little sidequest or something at most. And even a mid-level cultist could conceivably get hold of a scroll of the spell and cast it. Jailbreaks from the Wells would certainly be a bit more common if that's all it takes. This is high-level play. Just as you don't consider most diseases to be much of a challenge for parties with a 5th level cleric, ordinary imprisonments aren't going to be much of a challenge for parties with a 17th or 18th level arcane caster. The whole point is for the PCs to face both physical challenges and moral dilemmas.
You seriously understate the difficulty of obtaining a rare 9th-level spell.
First off, wizards do not get unlimited access to spells known. They pay an excruciating fee of 150gp/spell level, with a RAW recommendation that DMs charge arbitrarily large amounts for high-level spells or simply deny them entirely. Suppose there are 500 spell levels of crap spells like Freedom that could conceivably become useful but probably will be wasted resources. (500 is fairly conservative for the PHB alone, more so if you allow the Spell Compendium) That means that filling your spellbooks with the crap spells costs you 75,000gp, and that's not even counting all the money on spells that are actually worth the paper they're printed on. To put things in perspective, that's almost a fifth of the total wealth of the wizard in this adventure. What did that wizard give up to get these spells? The wizard's +6 intelligence and +6 constitution items are only 72,000gp together -- are those sacrificed in favor of filling out the spellbook with the Player's Handbook? And filling out the Spell Compendium basically forces the L18 wizard to adventure naked for a while.
And yes, probably the University of Magical Arts does have a copy. The characters in this AP, though, don't seem to have any affiliation with that organization, though, and chances are they're not going to get one on short notice. The U is probably not going to hand over a 9th-level spell on good faith alone, especially since divinations reveal that the PCs intend to use it to try to free a demon lord. Such a sidequest would be pretty major and enjoyable.
The fact that an entire plane of imprisonment requires the spell cast from one specific book with a connection to the prisoner not only adds flavor but makes complete sense to me. Of course there are rules that are unexpected, and only one way to free the prisoner. If it was easier, why wouldn't her cult have done it by now? Why wouldn't someone just come along and cast freedom on any of the prisoners they like? I mean, it only takes the PCs a couple of years in game time to gain that kind of power, surely NPCs could do it too.
Her cult didn't free her now because her cult sucks, or at least those few loyal members remaining. They don't even have any members left that can handle a few lousy CR 14 gorallons without being assaulted by the rape monkeys. Clearly, all of Shami-Amourae's followers who were worth anything at all switched their allegiances to one of her rivals when she was humiliated with capture and imprisonment. They're demons, after all.
As far as they will know, placing a creature in an open Well is no different than placing a creature in a cell on Divided's Ire, only more secure.
This is a relevant response. We can possibly forgive the horrendous alignment violation with this excuse, but...
Ahazu's deal is so obviously a sucker bet that I can't imagine it being in-character for most character archetypes to agree to it. Demonic bargains are supposed to be tempting. You are supposed to be offered something precious, and sacrifice something that seems trivial but turns out to be catastrophic.
We have the turning-out-catastrophic part down, but Ahazu's offer is underwhelming and his demand creates a severe risk of TPK. Either the CR 24 monster kills the APL 18 party, or they get sucked into a Well. And if everything goes perfectly, they free a demon lord who might or might not have worthwhile information.
And, as salt in the players' wounds, she doesn't. "Gee, Shami! You say that we should ask for help from Demogorgon's various enemies, so they attack him at the same time as us? How ever would we have thought of that? There's that Int 22 at work, I guess." Closest thing to useful information is the name of Iggwilv, who would pop up on a Knowledge(The Planes) check as an enemy of Demogorgon and a planar sage anyway. Why didn't Red Shroud just direct the party to Iggwilv in the first place? Oh, right. Because she's a demon, demons are chaotic and evil, and it seems clear that strategically the best way of dealing with demons in this adventure is to skip the adventure entirely.
Also note that the Abyss resurrects demon lords. So defeating them is pretty pointless if they are just going to reform after some time. You really need to figure out a way to take them out over the long term. This is one such fashion. In fact, if the PCs kill Demogorgon but don't imprison him, they've arguably been less effective at stopping him than if they do imprison him. (In other words, he'll be back much faster if you "just kill him".)
I think you may have overstated the simplicity of Demogorgon's return. Yes, his body will knit back together. He's just gotten wuss-slapped by a few mortals, however, and that'll do MAJOR damage to his Abyss Cred. Half his supporters will switch allegiances to his enemies, and half the rest will strike out on their own. Orcus and Grazz't will probably snap up an unattended layer before Demogorgon returns, and good luck getting them to give it back. After his humiliation, Demogorgon will need to spend a few eons rebuilding before he can garner respect even from bottom-feeders like Yeenoghu or Juiblex.
Additionally, the Wells of Darkness do not seem to be all that secure. The listed prisoners are Ansitif, Apep, Areex, Cabiri, Ebulon, Lazbral'thull, Ma Yuan, Shami-Amourae, Bayemon, Shaktari, Siragle, Zzyczesiya, Astaroth, Dahak, Echidna, Kizarvidexus, Rr'ikin'aka, Ungulex, Argolcheir, and of course Ahazu himself. That's 20 prisoners important enough to get names.
Of these:
5 of them (Bayemon, Shaktari, Siragle, Zzyczesiya, and Shami-Amourae) have escaped or will escape during the course of this adventure.
3 of them (Astaroth, Kizarvidexus, and Argolcheir) are apparently able to escape if someone cleans the hellfire/tornado/ghouls/chasme out long enough for the body to regenerate on this side of the well.
2 of them (Echidna and Ahazu) are apparently able to get out by some means beyond the scope of the text. Echidna's mortal spawn gets out with regularity, and Ahazu himself can apparently get himself out once he has enough prisoners to consume.
50% is not real good odds for a prison.
Finally, note that there are solutions that might assuage even the most goody two-shoes paladin. For example, said paladin is likely to be equivalent to a CR 19 creature by the end of the 66 days. At the campaign end, the paladin might offer himself up to Ahazu as the CR 19 "sacrifice" to spare the entire party from being drawn into the Abyss. This might then lead to an epic campaign to "free the paladin by defeating Ahazu once and for all".
Yeah, that is a bit better. Not "good" by any stretch, especially since the group is in serious trouble if that Paladin gets one-shotted in the next big fight and his soul gets eaten or something.
Other options include giving the tooth to Ahazu and then recapturing Shami. There's nothing to say that Shami can't be the CR 19 equivalent to herself. This has the effect of gathering the information required without pushing the status quo towards evil.
Yeah, that is kind of funny and appropriate. Especially since one of the first things she does when she gets out is to try and consume of the PCs' souls.
Why WOULDN'T anyone else freed Shami-Amourae to begin with is the same reason I think why even though raise dead and resurrection spells abounds in D&D, not many of the dead comes back to life.
These spells require the cooperation of the soul of the deceased to work and no good aligned souls who's currently enjoying their rewards in Elysium or the Heavens would want to go back to the Prime. Evil aligned souls would certainly cooperate so they can escape their torment in the lower planes...and anybody who would want to raise them are few and far between.
Thus nobody wants to free her because nobody wanted to or have a reason to.
Nobody except Graz'zt or Obox-Ob, they covet the title the Prince of Demons too. She knows too much being she was "two-heads" favorite sexual partner for who knows how long. That sort of knowledge makes her very valuable. If another Lord were to release her, Demogorgon would know sooner or later who would do and Graz'zt and Obox-Ob are planners. An unprepared conflict between any three would obviously drain or redirect resources elsewhere. Better to get lackeys to do your dirty work for you.
As for the Queen of Dark Delights, even demons need to exploit secrets and thus keep an discrete advantage on their enemies. I believe she'll find her way into Graz'zt Triple Realm all too soon. Their personalities would be compatible and that's a stretch for Tanar'ri.
Besides The 663rd layer of the Abyss looks like the kinda place I wouldn't want to venture unless I had an economy-sized holy canister of blessed bug-b-gone. :-D
Any way, I just received my new issue of Dragon (#357). I'm off to the restroom with the newest installment of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv. You know whom within its pages.
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You seriously understate the difficulty of obtaining a rare 9th-level spell.First off, wizards do not get unlimited access to spells known. They pay an excruciating fee of 150gp/spell level, with a RAW recommendation that DMs charge arbitrarily large amounts for high-level spells or simply deny them entirely. Suppose there are 500 spell levels of crap spells like Freedom that could conceivably become useful but probably will be wasted resources. (500 is fairly conservative for the PHB alone, more so if you allow the Spell Compendium) That means that filling your spellbooks with the crap spells costs you 75,000gp, and that's not even counting all the money on spells that are actually worth the paper they're printed on. To put things in perspective, that's almost a fifth of the total wealth of the wizard in this adventure.
Huh?
I think it's 100gp/ spell level to copy a spell into your spellbook. So that means 900gp for Freedom. A character doesn't need to learn 500 spell levels of "crap spells" in order to learn one particular 9th level spell. They find out which spell they need, locate it, pay the cost (900gp), take 24 hours to copy it into their book (none of this should pose much of a problem for a high level character), and they're done.
Not much of a challenge, and not much of a cost for an 18th level party.
Not that this would be completely relevant to a PC who does not know he/she will need the spell ahead of time, but for example, an NPC ally / cultist of Shami who researched the way to free her ("All we need is a Freedom spell?!") could cut out the time and cost by choosing to gain the spell when he/she gains a new wizard spell casting level.
You make a point that this prison seems only to have a 50% success rate. I think that if all that was needed to free the prisoners was a generic 9th level spell, it'd be closer to 0%...
I think it's 100gp/ spell level to copy a spell into your spellbook. So that means 900gp for Freedom. A character doesn't need to learn 500 spell levels of "crap spells" in order to learn one particular 9th level spell. They find out which spell they need, locate it, pay the cost (900gp), take 24 hours to copy it into their book (none of this should pose much of a problem for a high level character), and they're done.
Not much of a challenge, and not much of a cost for an 18th level party.
Not that this would be completely relevant to a PC who does not know he/she will need the spell ahead of time, but for example, an NPC ally / cultist of Shami who researched the way to free her ("All we need is a Freedom spell?!") could cut out the time and cost by choosing to gain the spell when he/she gains a new wizard spell casting level.
You make a point that this prison seems only to have a 50% success rate. I think that if all that was needed to free the prisoners was a generic 9th level spell, it'd be closer to 0%...
First off, it's 150gp/spell level. 100gp for writing the spell down, and 50gp for renting spellbook access from a friendly wizard who knows the spell. Alternatives to this method are more expensive.
Second, the "cultist of Shami" who researches the way to free her gets nothing unless she asks Ahazu himself, since he's the only guy who knows the answer. Or if she goes down the list of possible methods one at a time until she finds out what works by a brute force search method.
If she asks Ahazu, he won't tell her unless she makes the same deal that the PCs make in this adventure. At which point, if she uses this knowledge (or causes this knowledge to be used by telling another cultist) she could end up in the Well herself.
If she tries brute force, then she's pretty much buying every spell in the PHB PLUS whatever non-spell methods she can think of. If she doesn't get it right on the first try, Demogorgon will notice and beef up security.
Just because Freedom works does not mean that everyone in the multiverse automagically knows that Freedom works.
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First off, it's 150gp/spell level. 100gp for writing the spell down, and 50gp for renting spellbook access from a friendly wizard who knows the spell.
Ah, yes, right you are, my mistake. So thats 1350gp then. Still not too much of a stretch for your average 18th level wizard I'd imagine. Perhaps other party members would even offer to chip in a few coppers. Fate of the world and all that...
Your 18th level wizard may even have a few choice 9th level spells him/her self that he/she (or another party member with a higher diplomacy score) could offer to trade to the high level wizard who has Freedom. Gee, with a high enough diplomacy score they could probably convince the wizard to GIVE them a scroll with the spell on it. (Fate of the world again).
I understand that this is all not by the RAW, but in many games they would not be considered unreasonable approaches.
Point is, you don't need to pay for 500 levels of crap spells to get one 9th level spell, you just need to pay for that one spell you're after.
Second, the "cultist of Shami" who researches the way to free her gets nothing unless she asks Ahazu himself, since he's the only guy who knows the answer. Or if she goes down the list of possible methods one at a time until she finds out what works by a brute force search method.If she asks Ahazu, he won't tell her unless she makes the same deal that the PCs make in this adventure. At which point, if she uses this knowledge (or causes this knowledge to be used by telling another cultist) she could end up in the Well herself.
Just because Freedom works does not mean that everyone in the multiverse automagically knows that Freedom works.
Yep, all that is probably true. It's still not a cake walk to get out of the well. BUT it should be much easier with a reasonably "common" 9th level spell (common for a 9th level spell that is) than it would be with one specific spell found in one specific book.
And this way probably makes for a more interesting section of adventure than making a few skill checks, forking out a bit of money and getting the spell.
Still, if that seems like the right approach for your game, go for it. You don't need to play the adventure exactly as written.
I think it's 100gp/ spell level to copy a spell into your spellbook. So that means 900gp for Freedom. A character doesn't need to learn 500 spell levels of "crap spells" in order to learn one particular 9th level spell. They find out which spell they need, locate it, pay the cost (900gp), take 24 hours to copy it into their book (none of this should pose much of a problem for a high level character), and they're done.
Not much of a challenge, and not much of a cost for an 18th level party.
Not that this would be completely relevant to a PC who does not know he/she will need the spell ahead of time, but for example, an NPC ally / cultist of Shami who researched the way to free her ("All we need is a Freedom spell?!") could cut out the time and cost by choosing to gain the spell when he/she gains a new wizard spell casting level.
You make a point that this prison seems only to have a 50% success rate. I think that if all that was needed to free the prisoners was a generic 9th level spell, it'd be closer to 0%...
First off, it's 150gp/spell level. 100gp for writing the spell down, and 50gp for renting spellbook access from a friendly wizard who knows the spell. Alternatives to this method are more expensive.
Second, the "cultist of Shami" who researches the way to free her gets nothing unless she asks Ahazu himself, since he's the only guy who knows the answer. Or if she goes down the list of possible methods one at a time until she finds out what works by a brute force search method.
If she asks Ahazu, he won't tell her unless she makes the same deal that the PCs make in this adventure. At which point, if she uses this knowledge (or causes this knowledge to be used by telling another cultist) she could end up in the Well herself.
If she tries brute force, then she's pretty much buying every spell in the PHB PLUS whatever non-spell methods she can think of. If she doesn't get it right on the first try, Demogorgon will notice and beef up security.
Just because Freedom...
I guess I will weigh in on this conversation.
Sure you can do whatever you feel is more appropriate for you game.
Thats the GMs prerogative. But consider one example.
Lets we were trying to destroy the greatest evil that walked the earth. Ok, we could call him by many names, Orcus, Asmodeus, Devil, Demon, Maiar, whatever.
And suppose that to destroy this evil, rather than free a Demon-Lord (Lady I guess) to get knowledge from her, we need to destroy an artifact of his (many of you will probably see this coming already).
Thus not just any Freedom spell will do, but instead it must be the freedom spell, it must be the Freedom spell from the spellbook that is associated with the Demon Lord's (Ladies') history.
ah, ok..
Yeah that makes sense, if its really seen as just that.
However, why not force the players to roll for sense motive..? Sometimes ignorance can be bliss.. :DI was just under the expression that the negotiations with ahazu used the word sacrifice..
Well, still waiting for my copy. ;)
Ikki your still waiting for your copy too? So am I, were are you located? I am In Connecticut, but you'd think I was from freakin' Mars considering how long It takes my magazine to get here!
DAve
Finland..
Why not change the book of infinite spells to a mystical divination-proof tome that contains the true name of the being you want to release. Then say that the freedom spell must use the true name as a material component to open a well. That way, there is a clear reason why it is hard for the cells to be opened by allies, since no abbysal or infernal entity would let anyone know their name.
Second, the "cultist of Shami" who researches the way to free her gets nothing unless she asks Ahazu himself, since he's the only guy who knows the answer. Or if she goes down the list of possible methods one at a time until she finds out what works by a brute force search method.
I understand that this adventure, as written, didn't appeal to you. I do think that you are kind of falling back on hyperbole and miscontruing a few parts of this adventure to make your point though, and I'm not sure that you really need to. If the adventure doesn't work for you, then change it or run something else. If you want to run it, but you want different options, several of the posters here have given you some suggestions.
I don't think you are going to convert people to thinking the adventure is bad if you argue your points. I can respect that its not your thing, and I don't expect everyone to like the same kinds of adventures that I do. I don't think you are going to convince a concensus people that you are right and this adventure is imperically flawed.
First off, you mention that you are running this in Eberron. No matter what anyone tries to tell you, Eberron isn't "standard" D&D. Its written for "core" campaigns, which means that its going to be easier to run "as is" in Greyhawk or the Realms. You are either going to have to change the feel of the setting to run it closer to how its written, or you are going to have to make changes to the adventure to run it in the spirit of the setting. You sound like you are leaning toward the latter. I hope you have fun.
To sum up some points that I think are evident in the adventure, but that seem to be sticking points for you:
1. In most campaigns 18th level characters aren't going to have a hard time finding a scroll with freedom on it. If its hard to do in your campaign, its idiosyncratic to your campaign, and that's fine, but its not the "norm."
2. The creatures that are reforming in their prisons are unable to even be contacted. If they reformed, they would be alive, but slowly being leeched off of by Ahazu. In his present form, you'd have a hard time freeing Astaroth at all. You would have to stop the hellfire first, THEN go through something as difficult as Shami Amourae's proceedure to be freed, before he would be freed. He wouldn't be free even if he reformed, he would just be an imprisoned complete being that could communicate to those that came to his well.
3. As has been pointed out, the PCs have no idea that Ahazu might become a god if he keeps draining away the imprisoned beings here. In fact, just because he is feeding off of them doesn't mean its a done deal that he will become a god. Even left alone something could go wrong.
4. Saying that putting a being in the prisons here is an evil act is kind of like saying that if you picked a flower that you are responsible for the plague that develops a hundred years later when that flower rots in just the right place to cause a certain bacteria to grow. You "fail" morally if you understand the ramifications of your actions and can reasonable prevent their assumed outcome. Is it disquieting to deal with a demon lord? Yes. Is it something that will make you paranoid that in some way you may have forwarded evil without knowing it? Yes. Is that the same as willingly participating in a ritual that creates an evil god, or sacrificing a being on an alter to a demon lord? Not even close.
5. None of the eventualities you have come up with have been plot holes, so much as things you are worried the PCs might do. The players run their characters. Its up to them to figure out the options available to them, as long as the adventure isn't one big "save or die" fest with few actual options. Heck, I think this adventure has tons of options, and I would love to see how my players would react and what way they would come up with to deal with these situations. You almost sound like you are tying to come up with the "right" path for your players to take, but that's suppose to be up to them.
I guess in the end, I have to say I really enjoyed this adventure. Its a lot of fun, and its very atmospheric. Its been one of my favorite adventures in this adventure path, and has helped to make me want to go back through to some of the older adventures in the path that I glossed over. This adventure didn't seem to strike you the same way, and that's cool. Nothing is going to make someone excited 100% of the time, and eventually something is not going to click for you.
Wow, is this being over thought, in my opinion.
Yes, as a DM you realize that Ahazu is using the energies of the prisoners to ascend to godhood, but this information is not presented to the characters. All they will know is that they need to replace one prisoner with one of equal or greater power. You must also realize that this process has been taking a few centuries and still not complete. In fact, Ahazu has let other prisoners go so you can assume that he is not in a rush.
As for the question of a paladin, or other good and virtuous character, making a deal with a demon being a violation of there oaths you must put it in the proper context. They are not doing this for personnal power or gain. It is possible to look at this not a pact but a negotion or trade, something they had to deal with while in Scuttlecove (aiding one faction to defeat another with neither one being any better.) Shami-Amourae while being a demon lord has been out of the picture for awhile and is not a major player, if you so desire it, and the fact that an entire world hangs in the balance the gods may look the other way. There have been many stories published in D&D where the goodly gods had to join forces with their evil counterparts to save themselves and/or reality from destruction... so its not that big of an issue if you don't want it to be.
If this still isn't satisfactory, then bypass the meeting with Ahazu or the trip to the Well altogether. Depending on the type of PCs you're dealing with, variuos knowledge checks could be employed to establish what the charcters may know about Demogorgon or the planes. Do they know that he has two personalities? Do they know who his current consort is? Maybe she has observed his weakness. What about other sages? Can they go directly to Iggwilv? What about a sage on another plane or in Sigil?
The difficulty to this method will be if the player's can figure out that the dual personalities are so divided that given multiple problems at once, Demogorgon locks up like a computer running Windows 95
It occurs to me that, if the chief worry is that players may not want to fall into line with Ahazu's demands, whether due to a reluctance to provide a 'sacrifice', mechanical difficulties in acquiring a sacrifice, some sneaking suspicion that Ahazu may be drawing strength from all these prisoners, or simply fear at the consequences of failure, perhaps the easiest solution is to allow them to bargain him down. i.e. change the minimum requirements.
Letting the demon lord set the terms of any bargain probably isn't the sort of thing a moderately sensible character likes in any case. Of course, the work-around only works if the PCs have a bargaining chip (the tooth of Ahazu). Otherwise, Ahazu can simply ignore their efforts to bargain him down.
The whole reason he wants his tooth back, after all, is because he's afraid one of his enemies will be able to use it as a tool to divine his plans, and act to disrupt them. It takes a special kind of arrogance to threaten a demon lord, but there's one of my characters I can see delivering the following ultimatum:
"Alright, here's the deal. You release Shami-Amourae, and I give you your tooth back. Otherwise, I'm going to take this tooth and deliver it to someone who doesn't like you. I'm sure they'll be able to come up with all sorts of possible uses for it. Oh, and you get the tooth after she's free. Because I don't trust you."
Future dealings with Ahazu will no doubt be rather soured by such a threat, but hey, it's not like the PCs are going to need anything else from him in the future. Or, if Ahazu balks at the deal, they can follow through on the threat and trade the tooth to one of Demogorgon's enemies in exchange for whatever knowledge they may have picked up on his weaknesses.
Bottom line: If players don't like the terms of a bargain, they're often quite capable of working out alternatives. If the GM doesn't like the terms of a bargain (or senses the players don't but are having difficulties coming up with alternatives), they should be dropping hints as to other means of doing things.
If I am honest, the entire "bargain with Ahazu" situation is - IMHO - a setup for one monstrous ... messed up TPK, given my knowledge of the average player (some hundreds from personal experience ), and my group in particular.
First-off, few experienced players will willingly deal with a demon, any demon, if they do not feel reasonably in control of the situation. Demonic bargains are a classic, too classic way to get reamed, and given that the party by this time should be veteran adventrures, some with intense knowledge of the planes and demons, will be unwilling to enter a bargain, especially so one sided and unspecific as the one offered by Ahazu ( promise me your soul, or that of a powerful entity for a chance to speak with an imprisoned demon-princess ? wooooooot, that sounds like the most expensive date ever... ).
Also, if players have made inquiries on Demogorgon and his once upon-ab-aeon paramour, they will have come across the information of just why Shamie-Amourae was imprisoned. They will expect inside pay-dirt on Demogorgon and his weaknesses. And given what Shamie Amourae knows, at least by the adventure outline in Dungeon is simply ... hot air ? And since many players are prone to verify the relevancy of possible information to their cause ( especially if dealing with such unsavoury fellows as demon pricnes ) by casting divinatory spells of their own ( like, "Does Shamie Amourae know anthing helpful we do not yet know and will she share it with us ?"), they will either know in advance that little if anything can be gained from the whole situation - as written.
I also agree with Kobold Lord on his viewing of several other premises in the adventure - sacrifying anyone to a Demon Lord in any way, be it for imprisonment or consumption( I mean, who will honestly believe that Ahazu is _not_ angling for a signficant advantage with his offer ?), parting with an artifact (albeit a weak one ) for hardly any advantage, the entire clicheed "get me the right book with a rare spell in it" angle... Also, Shamie Amourae does not strike me as particularly deserving of getting out of the Wells - not even mentioning as to how much she knows or a possible aggression on her part towards the PCs - making PCs less than likely to free her unless they are certain she will be helpful in some way. Which she is - as written - definitely not
That will be very hard to swallow for even many neutral characters, but especially so for anyone with an "exalted" or strongly good background. And gaining an atonement from an independent cleric, of your own faith while being caught up in inter-abyssal civil war and intrigue is a tad.... ahem, difficult, logistically-wise ? Especially since the "creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of righting its misdeeds"... PHB p201 ). Which, to my mind, reads very much as - prevent the evil bargain from being fulfilled or see to an immediate revrsal of its effects.
Good Luck, but in my mind that A) will work only _after_ the entire adventure, if not the finale of the campaign has been run, and B) the cleric needed for the "atonement" is likely to be the person who will need it himself.....
So, in resumee, that entire part is pretty much a guarantee for players feeling short-shrifted and cheated by the GM, with little to none gain for a lot of work, sacrifice and frustration. Not my idea of an intersting adventure, and in a way, as a ridiculous as some of the prompting and herding done in the AoW-AP to make the finale even seem feasible (Sphere of Annihilation etc. ).
Oh, not even mentioning the difficulty of casting a freedom spell ( scroll or not ) if there is no high-level UMD user, and your wizard is a specialist who has foresworn Abjuration as a school.... Or buying a scroll/acess to it, in a highly suspicious world/setting, where there _will_be questions as to what this spell is going to be needed for (much like the knowledge for building a nuclear bomb, this spell is something I would consider not easily traded or taught by those in the know)
There is gonna be a very massive rewriting in the wings for this adventure, both for feasibilities sake and my groups enjoyment of it.