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If you set up a month-to-month subscription after the first volume ships, you get a plain ol' "Pathfinder subscriber" title.
So get those subs set up now and flaunt your status! :-)
Consider me flaunting!!! Now if you guys could fix the glitch that says I'm receiving volumes 2-4 as compensation for my current subscriptions before the month-to-month kicks in...
My first reaction was the same shock and dismay as everyone else, but I appreciate the fact that Erik, Vic, etc have been actively posting on the messageboards today so that we are getting a clear look "behind the curtain" at what happened with WotC and what we can expect from Pathfinder. I was leary, but y'all are better salesmen than WotC could ever hope to be!
Game on!
Well, I've enjoyed the last couple years of Dragon and Dunegon very much & I'm willing to give Pathfinder a try. I've had magazines cease publication on me before and Paizo seems to be making a real effort to give poeple options. I think WotC is making a mistake about ceasing hard copy publication and going to internet only, I'm not going to boycott WotC - but at the moment I'm more likely to buy Paizo adventures than WotC ones.
Thanks Eric & James & the rest of the Paizo crew for trying to do right by us the subscribers. I hope this will end up being an opportunity for Paizo to shine.
Bren
Okay, I've cooled off a bit. While I don't have the cash for a subscription right now, I'm definetly picking up the first issue. Go Paizo.
Month-to-Month subscription means you just bill our credit card every month until we ask you to stop, right?
Creative Director
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Hmm, Tome of Horros I, II, III; Creature Collection I at least, but I don't know about II and/or IIIl plus the SRD off the top of my head.
I think we have open source monsters to draw on for years to come.
Add in Green Ronin's Book of Fiends and then throw everything through their Advanced Bestiary and pow. Endless monsters.
Needless to say of the new monsters we'll be introducing with each volume of Pathfinder...
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Pathfinder's more expensive for one very good reason: it's not a magazine. The paper stock will be heavier; the covers, while softcover, will be thicker; and we'll have LOTs more room to expand each adventure. We'll have articles about cities, articles about deities and big villians, articles about how to expand your game into areas like building PC-controlled strongholds, articles about the new campaign world it's all set in, and LOTS and LOTS of new monsters. Plus, with the exception of a page or two of house-ads at the back... there's no ads at all in the product. The best comparasion is probably something like "Red Hand of Doom" but with more support material to support the adventure and game world.
Well, as I wrote on another thread, I'm onboard. Reluctantly. To be completely honest, I only got into Dungeon during the Adventure Paths, and while I've really enjoyed those, I have enjoyed Dragon much more (and much longer; since the change to 3.0). What does Pathfinder offer in terms of crunchy or fluffy action for the non-DMs at the table? I would hope to see prestige classes, feats, substitution levels, and so forth included in this book, since all of these were features of Paizo's past.
As we can all see (and have all read before), even the subscription price of $14 an issue is high. I would hope that with this freedom will come Item Cards tossed into the book corresponding with equipment from the Adventure Path, and any other cool little freebies you kids can think of. You have my money and my support because of all the wonderful stuff that has come from your company for the past five years, but to keep it coming, this product needs to be great.
That said, I would like to echo Sebastian's praise over offering the PDF version of every issue to subscribers; this tidbit is likely to keep me coming back and buying the product after my fury at the change has died down (above assertions about free product aside). So, most likely, disregard most of my words as backlash about an old friend terminally ill with no hope in sight. But replace my old friend with something cool.
Thanks for the memories.
I am more interested in moving AWAY from D&D's crunch into other OGL gaming (Green Ronin's Blue Rose/True20 Fantasy), so I'm not so interested in PrCs... and more interested in interesting stories, settings and adventures.
If it's a setting and a story, I can translate it easily to True20 via the OGL. If it's more D20-type crunch, then it's not so useful.
People who use other flavors of OGL might have other opinions...
We should never forget about Chris Thomasson and his visionary idea...
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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So -- where's Erik Mona ending up in this?
~Richard
He's the mad puppet master running the entire publishing operation.
He's also taking the lead on designing the world behind Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules.
He's also writing an article for the first Pathfinder.
He's also pretty damn tired after an exhausting day, and will soon be going home to consume beer.
--Erik
If you Paizo folks can get Monte Cook to come back to game design and contribute to Pathfinder in some capacity, you may consider my $20 per month subscription a guarantee.
They got necromancer games. That's good enough for me. Monte is off in his own little world with Ptolus.
Erik, I'm done with work now too. Leaving in 10 minutes to find all the beer and rum in my fridge. I can sympathize with you on how frustrating a day like this can be.
Hey, with beholders not in the SRD does that mean I'm going to have to get a new avatar? Eye really like this one. ;)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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That's a pretty powerful disincentive for customers to shop from me instead of you. For the same price from you they get two products.Speaking as a bookseller, is there any way that I can offer my customers the pdf version? If they want it do they have to buy it from you, or will there be a way for them to obtain it?We'll be selling individual PDFs for $13.95. I suppose we might contemplate making CD-ROM compilations available through retail in future, but even discussing that is a long way off.
tbug,
The only reason retail customers who buy the print product from a store won't also get a free PDF is that we haven't figured out how to do it affordably. We can't bind in a CD because it would rise the cost and we can't just put a code in the book because it would take eight minutes for a gamer to post it on the internet.
We do have a lot of retailer-only incentives in the works including promotional posters and brochures, we're looking at making a retail-exclusive alternate cover for the first issue of the Adventure Path, and we're making the first three issues of each Adventure Path fully returnable, but the logistics hurdle in getting free PDFs to retail customers is one we haven't figured out yet.
If you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it.
Hell, if you have any idea on how to make Pathfinder a better fit for your store, I'd love to hear it.
--Erik Mona
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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We should never forget about Chris Thomasson and his visionary idea...Absolutely. Without Chris, there never would have been a Shackled City Adventure Path. I'm not sure Dungeon would have made it to issue #100 without that.
Seriously? And I don't mean that Chris's contribution was not significant, it very much was, but I didn't realize Dungeon was in such bad shape back then (other than being burdened by Polyhedron).
So -- where's Erik Mona ending up in this?
~Richard
He's the mad puppet master running the entire publishing operation.
He's also taking the lead on designing the world behind Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules.
He's also writing an article for the first Pathfinder.
He's also pretty damn tired after an exhausting day, and will soon be going home to consume beer.
--Erik
Erik, go home and enjoy your beer. We for one deeply appreciate what you and the rest of the Paizo staff are doing. ~shakes my head~ And I'll bet you are tired. I am sure that everyone over there is tired, a bit worried and scared about what is happening. Despite everything, I am sure that you all have this little nagging fear that your best will not be enough. ~shrugs and then smiles~ It might not be, but I will be there for every issue of Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules. Keep up the good work. Now go home and get some sleep!!!
tbug,
The only reason retail customers who buy the print product from a store won't also get a free PDF is that we haven't figured out how to do it affordably. We can't bind in a CD because it would rise the cost and we can't just put a code in the book because it would take eight minutes for a gamer to post it on the internet.
Ah. I'd assumed that this would be equally true of all the pdfs, but if you were to use some sort of DRM then you could prevent the customers who buy directly from you from doing this. I hadn't thought of that.
We do have a lot of retailer-only incentives in the works including promotional posters and brochures, we're looking at making a retail-exclusive alternate cover for the first issue of the Adventure Path, and we're making the first three issues of each Adventure Path fully returnable, but the logistics hurdle in getting free PDFs to retail customers is one we haven't figured out yet.
If you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it.
Hell, if you have any idea on how to make Pathfinder a better fit for your store, I'd love to hear it.
--Erik Mona
Thanks! It's encouraging to hear you say that. We'll talk about it, and if we come up with anything then I'll get back to you.
He's also pretty damn tired after an exhausting day, and will soon be going home to consume beer.--Erik
My Man!!! I'm on my fifth Samuel Adams right now and my wife keeps calling me on the phone every hour or so to console me over losing my favorite magazines. She's a gamer, she knows what they meant to me.
*passes out the homebrew*
To our friends, Dungeon and Dragon, who have supported us these last 20 and 30 years, may our memories of them never fade, and to the new ventures of Paizo, may it roll natural 20s for success.
So does my title mean that I was the first subscriber to Pathfinder? Or one of the first? :)About the titles. If you convert your Dragon or Dungeon issues to Pathfinder, you get the "Pathfinder subscriber" title.
If you set up a month-to-month subscription before the first volume of Rise of the Runelords ships, you get the totally awesome "Pathfinder charter subscriber" title.
If you set up a month-to-month subscription after the first volume ships, you get a plain ol' "Pathfinder subscriber" title.
So get those subs set up now and flaunt your status! :-)
Well, I was going to do set up a sub anyways... but if it gets me a cool title ;-)
It's all about the cool titles ;)
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1. What happens when Wotc pulls the plug on OGL with 4th ed.? It will happen, (remember this post) so what are you planning to do about that?The beauty of the OGL is that it can NEVER be recinded. Once the door was opened on third party content, it can't be closed. So we don't have to worry about WotC pulling the plug on the OGL.
-Lisa
I think the concern may be that if WotC goes to a 4e, it won't OGL the 4e materials. So, yes 3e/3.5e OGL remains good, but if WotC maintains the top dog on the market and doesn't OGL future editions, then others will suffer. Naturally, the flip side is that people may grow so disenfranchised with WotC that they won't be as open to following the company into a new edition as they may have been earlier. (I know I'm feeling that way about Star Wars SAGA.)
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I guess I wasn't clear, pazio is already in the magazine business, I don't understand the "start up" costs. Can't you continue putting out a magazine that you just switch over from a dungeon / dragon magazine to a magazine called "x" using OGL?No. The mass market (newsstands and such) know what Dragon is, because they've had it for decades. As far as they're concerned, a new magazine must be launched from square one. You need to buy positioning on the newsstand and increase your circulation to the point that advertisers will pay attention to you, and that will take time and money (and more money).
-Vic.
Okay Vic,
I get this. It's a bummer, but it makes sense. On the other hand, couldn't Pathfinder function in a similar function as a Dragon/Dungeon remake, only in OGL instead? (In a similar spirit as Dragon Compendium, perhaps Pathfinder could be rich in player content, but also tie that into three separate adventures in each BOOK?)
Otherwise, maybe you could beat WotC at its own game and produce an online webzine using your old magic. Just so you know, I feel much more comfortable with Paizo at the helm than I do WotC.
What a great and amazing run you guys had with the magazines. Thank you for all your hard work.
The truth of the matter is I haven't bought a WotC book in all most a year. I haven't played DnD in almost that long but I did continue to purchase both your fine magazines. You just could not beat the quality and price of your publications.
I will most definitely be picking up your Pathfinder books as often as possible.
Good luck to you all. And once again I would like to express how wonderfully awesome the last few years with Dungeon and Dragon has been.
It's all about the cool titles ;)
I offered to trade Nic for his "Contributor" title in another thread, but he hasn't responded ;-)
btw, shouldn't you have your contributer title already?
Okay Vic,I get this. It's a bummer, but it makes sense. On the other hand, couldn't Pathfinder function in a similar function as a Dragon/Dungeon remake, only in OGL instead? (In a similar spirit as Dragon Compendium, perhaps Pathfinder could be rich in player content, but also tie that into three separate adventures in each BOOK?)
Otherwise, maybe you could beat WotC at its own game and produce an online webzine using your old magic. Just so you know, I feel much more comfortable with Paizo at the helm than I do WotC.
Got to look at feasability of the product. If they print a mag it's just another rag on a shelf that gets it's cover torn off at the end of the month and mailed back to them. If they print it as a book it first of all goes into the gaming or fantasy sections of the book store where it sits mightily happy until someone purchases it even if it's months later. Iy's being put in a book store, which means wider distribution also, depending on which section they can get it put into(ie. fantasy vs Games)
This affords the customer who doesn't have a readily playing gaming group to not have to get a subscription but can buy it in the store. or the kid that only gets $20 a month allowance or otherwise financially challenged people to buy the modules every other month as they need them and have the money available. It also allows someone who starts gaming or gets back into it 3 years down the road from know to be able to jump right on the band wagon by snatching up past issues that are on the shelf. Right there, ON THE SHELF. Why? Because it's a book not a magazine. It can be reprinted, and stuffed right back there in the book store for the next wide eyed kid looking for a bit of escapism to snatch up, with out having to contact the company and ordering back issues like you do with a magazine. So you see how this allows for a very long term product, something that is very difficult to achieve with a magazine. Look how big a party a magazine publisher throws for a rag it owns when it hits 5 years then 10 years. Then you're mad when it quits publishing at 12. Magazines live 30 days at a time. Books last as long as the presses are there to print them.
If you've got an idea, I'd love to hear it.
Hell, if you have any idea on how to make Pathfinder a better fit for your store, I'd love to hear it.
--Erik Mona
Top of my head idea:
"Vendor Codes."
A series of codes, one for each copy of Pathfinder you sell a vendor. At least 3 sections to the code, the vendor ID, the issue ID, and a (at least semi) unique section. For more security, add multiple unique sections.
The vendor has the right to hand these codes out as they see fit... Paired with hardcopy, individual sale, combo deal.
The receiver can submit it online to Paizo for a PDF copy of the issue of Pathfinder. (Or, at least a discounted priced PDF.)
One submission per code.
If you suspect a Vendor of "cheating," just block the vendor ID section.
It isn't perfect, but it at least is a good starting idea. Someone make it better for me. ;-)
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'd assumed that this would be equally true of all the pdfs, but if you were to use some sort of DRM then you could prevent the customers who buy directly from you from doing this. I hadn't thought of that.
We watermark them, because electronic DRM for PDFs is the extra-spicy kind of evil.
-Vic.
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Since we can't use any of the campaign settings owned by WotC, we'll be creating a brand new setting as a background for Pathfinder... We'll be releasing more info about the setting and the new adventure path over the next several days, so stay tuned!
Just speculating here, but does WotC own the two others settings that made it to the final three (along with Eberron) of its campaign setting search? If not, will either of the two be this one then?
I'll assume that international FLGS will automatically carry Pathfinder after Dragon and Dungeon cease. I get my Dragon (as well as Marvel comics) at the local comic-book and gamin chain ComicQuest here in the Philippines.
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Creative Director
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Just speculating here, but does WotC own the two others settings that made it to the final three (along with Eberron) of its campaign setting search? If not, will either of the two be this one then?
I'll assume that international FLGS will automatically carry Pathfinder after Dragon and Dungeon cease. I get my Dragon (as well as Marvel comics) at the local comic-book and gamin chain ComicQuest here in the Philippines.
I do believe that WotC does own those two other finalist settings. In any event, this new world is not them. It's a setting that we're building from the ground up at Paizo.
While I'm certainly sorry to see the end of two icons like Dragon and Dungeon, I am looking forward to Pathfinder. The info given so far looks good and I'm sure the high quality content we've come to expect from James, Eric & Co will continue and I will definitely be subscribing.
Good luck with the new venture, and you can count on my support.
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I do believe that WotC does own those two other finalist settings. In any event, this new world is not them. It's a setting that we're building from the ground up at Paizo.
Given Erik's well-known love for Greyhawk, I really hope that the setting that you are currently developing will be presented in a similar style, with lots of interesting cultural diversity between regions.
It occurs to me that Paizo may just have a golden opportunity here to create something new that captures the classic D&D feel and grabs a segment of the market who aren't keen on either Eberron or the Forgotten Realms.
Oooh...Will we see some pretty poster maps of the setting someday? And maybe even a hardcover book eventually?
Oooh...Will we see some pretty poster maps of the setting someday? And maybe even a hardcover book eventually?
It all depends on sales, but those things are certainly the type of stuff we like to do!
There will be beautiful maps in all the Pathfinder volumes, including an illustrated 3D map of one of the main cities, much like the one Jeff Carlisle did for Shackled City. Uh, in fact, I've already signed Jeff up to do it. Hehe...
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'll assume that international FLGS will automatically carry Pathfinder after Dragon and Dungeon cease. I get my Dragon (as well as Marvel comics) at the local comic-book and gamin chain ComicQuest here in the Philippines.
I wouldn't assume—I'd make sure they know they should carry it!
-Vic.
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My feelings summed in poetry cos I can
I play D20 with my kids cos I'm a - Dad
Now my Dungeon is Dead, oh so - Sad
Savage Tide will complete at least - Glad
Uk distribution used to be awful and - Bad
There's no point in us getting - Mad
Adventure paths just arent a - Fad
I'll give pathfinder a try in my - Pad
Please improve UK distribution, just a - Tad
:-)
Seriously though - many many times I have to send off for skipped Dungeons or Dragons cos my game shop (using 4 different distributors) never gets all of its Dungeons or Dragons - so please please please, if you want to keep my business, ensure the new Pathfinder reaches all of us who support our game store and you.
And forgetting all the sadness, anger and all the rest. I would like to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed every issue, every episode of the Adventure Paths and look foward to another one albeit in a special format. I really hope Pathfinder gets the following that your company deserves for arranging a way to continue to give us our dungeon like fix.
Wonder what's going to happen to Wizards free Knowledge Arcana now...
Best of luck to you all.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I've now realized two things.
1.) I've never been "into" third party content much. I always went Wizards. But now, ironically, Wizards is pushing me to third content by taking away Dungeon. I like Paizo adventures a lot, they now have to use third party content, so now I will. Strange move on Wizard's part.
2.) I suggested a long time ago in a letter to Dragon about Paizo making their own world. Now I get my wish!
I like my Pathfinder Subscriber title. I do wish I had Contributor up there, but my articles in the great monster than was Dragon must have been a few too many years ago.
However, maybe I'll send some monsters in for possible Contributor status. I just wish I could contribute ideas to help build the new world.
Charlie
James, I have great confidence that you and the folks ove at Paizo will put out an absolutely amazing new mag. Wile I'm sure not being licensed by WotC limits you in some ways, I am also sure that it frees you up in other ways. I have been utterly astounded by what you have done with the AP's and continue to look forward to this type of work.
One question, without readingt hrough all the back posts (which I will do). Will all the works in Pathfinder be 1-20level AP's as we are used to, or will there be smaller adventure arcs? Like the Sehan arc going on currently, or the Vamps of Waterdeep or Dragonshards arcs in previous Dungeons? AP's that take you from 1-20 are great, but I have loved the series of 3 adventure arcs.
Hope to see more info on this!
Chris
I think the concern may be that if WotC goes to a 4e, it won't OGL the 4e materials. So, yes 3e/3.5e OGL remains good, but if WotC maintains the top dog on the market and doesn't OGL future editions, then others will suffer. Naturally, the flip side is that people may grow so disenfranchised with WotC that they won't be as open to following the company into a new edition as they may have been earlier. (I know I'm feeling that way about Star Wars SAGA.)
Now you see. I have a different opinion on this. I think when WotC puts out 4e, if they don't make it OGL, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Look at all the gaming industry that has popped up from d20 OGL. That industry is not going to go away when 4e comes out. if they don't make it OGL, the d20 industry will remain, chugging along putting out a lot of product that all works together, while WotC's non-OGL 4e isn't compatable with anything. Can't go to Green Ronin and pick up something new and exciting to put in your 4e non-OGL D&D game. Can't run Ptolus in 4e non-OGL D&D game.
I've already stated several times before that when 4e comes out, I will not be buying in. I have plenty of 3.5e OGL goodness to keep me going for a LONG time.
This only cements my transition away from WotC. I have great confidence in the folks at Paizo that they will put out an awesome world, an awesome product, and absolutely awesome adventures.
Pathfinder is a PERFECT name for a product going forth into uncharted territory.
Even if Pathfinder only runs for a year or two, I'll have enough gaming material to keep me going for a long time. No need to buy into 4e, that's for sure. (Of course, I hope Pathfinder keeps going on for much longer than that--that it somehow ends up filling the void left by the departure of our beloved magazines. But even if WotC's evil scheme succeeds, I will keep gaming in 3.5e, and they can get stuffed if they want me to buy a new edition to improve on something that's already about as good as it needs to be.
We watermark them, because electronic DRM for PDFs is the extra-spicy kind of evil.
Even better. Good call.
Pathfinder's more expensive for one very good reason: it's not a magazine. The paper stock will be heavier; the covers, while softcover, will be thicker; and we'll have LOTs more room to expand each adventure. We'll have articles about cities, articles about deities and big villians, articles about how to expand your game into areas like building PC-controlled strongholds, articles about the new campaign world it's all set in, and LOTS and LOTS of new monsters.
That's what I was afraid of. The heavier paper stock makes it more durable, but it's also less functional. With the lighter paper stock and cover of a typical magazine, it stays open on the table. With heavier paper stock and cover, it will be very hard for it to stay open on the table. It will be a constant annoyance as it keeps flipping closed.
Plus, with the exception of a page or two of house-ads at the back... there's no ads at all in the product.
I'd gladly put up with all the ads if it means it can be more affordable to more people.
I agree with rfox. Is it possible to put ads in Pathfinder to bring the price down a bit?
As for retail PDFs, each retail copy of Pathfinder could come wrapped in cello. Inside the back cover you have a "proof of purchase" sticker, or tear-card with a one time use code on it.
One time use code solves problem of people giving out code.
Wrapped in cello solves problem of people opening book to grab code.
If retailer wants customers to be able to look before they buy, retailer can have an open copy for people to see. If people start ripping open cello without buying, retailer can keep out an open shelf copy, and keep the rest behind the counter.