I'm playing through the STAP right now and I have to say that Lavinia is one of the most annoying characters I have ever met. It isn't really Lavinia herself (although her responsibility for the circumstances may be revealed at a later date), but rather the fact that it seems like everytime we turn around the tart is getting kidnapped or killed or whatever. And we are supposed to be working for her? Yeesh. My elf mage doesn't have a lot of patience for this kind of thing. We've already had to raise Lavinia from the dead once. If we have to do it again, he's gonna say screw it.
No spoilers please, since I'm a player.
We've already had to raise Lavinia from the dead once. If we have to do it again, he's gonna say screw it.
Well if you let her die, you've only got yourselves to blame.
SPOILER:
She's more compitant, imho, as the campaign progresses. Really, I see her kidnapping as a way for Lavinia to at last see the PC's heroics first hand. Just try not to get her killed in the Bullywug Gambit.
And, like her or not, she's here to stay :)
I'm playing through the STAP right now and I have to say that Lavinia is one of the most annoying characters I have ever met. It isn't really Lavinia herself (although her responsibility for the circumstances may be revealed at a later date), but rather the fact that it seems like everytime we turn around the tart is getting kidnapped or killed or whatever. And we are supposed to be working for her? Yeesh. My elf mage doesn't have a lot of patience for this kind of thing. We've already had to raise Lavinia from the dead once. If we have to do it again, he's gonna say screw it.
No spoilers please, since I'm a player.
Lavinia, as written, is no more annyoying than any other NPC that the players might develop an in-game relationship with.
If there's specific things that annoy and piss you off about her, blame your DM. He/she is ulitimately responsible for the impression you get.
Look at it this way: It would've been pretty pointless of her to hire you as bodyguards - which is part of your original job description - if she was never in any danger. The lady knows very well how precarious her situation is, which is precisely why she hired you.
In my campaign, the first time the players started to truly respect Lavinia was at the hostage scene in Bullywug Gambit, when she freed herself from Drevoraz's grasp and immediately went for the nearest discarded weapon in order to join the battle.
I think Lavinia is pretty cool. Sure, she gets into trouble sometimes but isn't that what heroes are for: to rescue damsels in distress? At least she's not as bad as Kim Bauer on 24!
SPOILER:
blah, blah, blah, blah, spoiler stuff, etc, etc.
Orcmonk220, when someone asks that you post no spoilers, please don't post any.
No spoilers please, since I'm a player.
blah, blah, blah.
Same for you, Mark. We don't know where in the AP airwalkr is, please don't spoil any surprise for him.
Again:
No spoilers please, since I'm a player.
Sorry. Not trying to be the spoiler police here. Just sayin...
blah, blah, blah.Same for you, Mark. We don't know where in the AP airwalkr is, please don't spoil any surprise for him.
If they've already experienced multiple instances of Lavinia getting into trouble, chances are they're beyond Bullywug's Gambit, since that's the first official point in the game at which any such events start happening.
That's true, Mark.
Jeez, you might as well give away the fact that Lavinia is actually Orcus in disguise...
Jeez, you might as well give away the fact that Lavinia is actually Orcus in disguise...
D'Oh!
Lavinia isn't supposed to piss you off just like the savage creatures arn't supposed to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. I'd say it's down to the DM and how she/he has used the character so far.
You should have a quiet and friendly word with your friend the DM and explain that you feel this way. :)
Either that or your party have a lack of empathy for a young noble woman who is trying to cope with the death of her parents, money troubles and all the problems with her brother as best she can in a cruel world?
I am also a player in the STAP and have already gone through all the spoilers mentioned above so no worries there but I thought I'd throw in my 2 c.p.
My party HATES another NPC, who will remain nameless due to the spoiler warnings, (DM's it's the wack job with the horse
:D ) but don't really have too big of a problem with Lavinia. Of course her demands can seem to be a bit much at times but just remember you are getting paid for it and just remember to treat her like your nagging girlfriend or wife---just smile and nod.
Well, my biggest problem with Lavinia has little to do with her personality, and everything to do with her relative powerlessness. Other than the fact that she has money (well, some), she is hardly an inspiring character to work for. She never hired us as bodyguards, she told us that was the job of the Jade Ravens (maybe we were supposed to be her bodyguards, but I never got that impression, nor would my character stoop to such low work).
We have had to save Lavinia on three separate occassions in which it seemed, had it not been for us, she would be dead and at the bottom of the ocean in cement shoes. The DM roleplays her well enough. The problem is simply that every time we turn around we have to rescue her. My character is strongly considering going rogue and abandoning her. If he was a little bit wealthier then he would probably try to convince the rest of the party to do it. We are using affiliations and my character has some connections that would probably pay off with what we know.
Well, my biggest problem with Lavinia has little to do with her personality, and everything to do with her relative powerlessness. Other than the fact that she has money (well, some), she is hardly an inspiring character to work for... The DM roleplays her well enough. The problem is simply that every time we turn around we have to rescue her. My character is strongly considering going rogue and abandoning her.
If a PC (or better yet, two) has/have the hots for her, it's easy for her to string 'em along with that insanely high Diplomacy modifier of hers. Little glances and innuendoes (the action, not the skill) have worked wonders to assure my party's allegiance to her. Then again, it helps to no end that the wizard PC's backstory involved being family friends with the Vanderborens.
As far as "relative powerlessnes," one of the most dangerous villains I ever put PCs against was an Aristocrat 12 with no combat gear, but with max Diplomacy, ample money, and the ears of the nobles. The PCs threatened him, and suddenly the assassins' guild had plenty of work. They moved against him; he had their employer brought up on charges and promptly put on death row. At one point the army was involved. And he spent so much of his time schmoozing the nobility, they couldn't catch him alone to attack him in combat.
My character is strongly considering going rogue and abandoning her. If he was a little bit wealthier then he would probably try to convince the rest of the party to do it. We are using affiliations and my character has some connections that would probably pay off with what we know.
You'd better make sure your DM is willing to wing it from then on. I'm pretty dependent on pre-published adventures and if my players decided to screw the plot and go their own way, I'd just have to close my book and stare at them until it was time to go home.
I think your best bet is to tell your DM that you're having a hard time roleplaying your character to follow Lavinia's lead and ask if he can include additional incentives to help you along.
Well, my biggest problem with Lavinia has little to do with her personality, and everything to do with her relative powerlessness. Other than the fact that she has money (well, some), she is hardly an inspiring character to work for. She never hired us as bodyguards, she told us that was the job of the Jade Ravens (maybe we were supposed to be her bodyguards, but I never got that impression, nor would my character stoop to such low work).
To me it sounds like two problems. One, your DM isn't playing her action like detailed in the module (well within his/her right). And two you seem to have a character not suited for what she is offering. Your character sounds like he is wealthy or close to it and the bodyguard/saving the damsel work isn't something he would due. If that is true I'm not suprised he would be annoyed by her. Maybe he would be doing it just to make her look like a fool so that some day he can take over her holdings. I don't think being pissed off/annoyed at her automatically makes the arrangement not worth the time.
Fletch: I would certainly hope that a DM would be capable of winging it without Lavinia. In fact, I would hope that the designers of the STAP were smart enough to realize that not every PC would want to be roped into being her lackeys in the first place. It seems like we have had several opportunities to move against her, but we haven't because our party is mostly good-aligned and frankly, we are strapped for cash and she pays well enough right now.
Chris P: The main cause for annoyance is not working for her per se, but having to save her everytime we turn around. At that point, why not simply leave her dead, assume her identity (wouldn't be too hard with a beguiler in the party) and control of her estate, and carry on the campaign that way? She is getting to be more trouble than she is worth.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As a DM who relies heavily on published adventures, I can appreciate not wanting the players to "go off the rails." But, that being said, if you just go along with the adventure because you think it's what you are supposed to do, I doubt you will enjoy the game to its full potential. Part of what I love about D&D is the freedom to make any choice and take any action. If you're sick of Livinia and your characters have the ethical flexibility to whack her, I say do it. The adventure paths are written with enough guidance that your DM should be able to adapt.
(But you should probably warn you DM of your intentions ahead of time. That way he is ready to pick up the bounce.)
I just don't see what the problem with Lavinia is. Most characters, especially good ones, like helping the powerless. Especially when they are being rewarded for it.
I would definitely talk to your DM about splitting with Lavinia. If he isn't wanting to make too many changes to the adventures as written, then this will create a problem for him.
As written, Lavinia certainly doesn't rescuing every time you turn around. In the first 4 adventures, it's only once in fact. That's not too bad.
Fletch: I would certainly hope that a DM would be capable of winging it without Lavinia.
Well, if you're determined to follow the course of the AP, then yeah, it wouldn't be too hard to work around Lavinia. I thought you were saying you were going to ditch it and go your own way.
I spend enough time prepping mods as it is (and have a sadly weak grasp of adventure construction) that I'd be pretty flumoxed if a group or player said "Nah, to hell with her. I'm going looking for some real adventure." Perhaps I should start carting around all my Dungeon adventures of the appropriate level just in case.
Back to the original thought, though, I wonder if the STAP could be run with your PC taking the place of Lavinia. As in "you stay here, we'll go check out your colony." It might be a pretty cool campaign to put the PCs in the leading role like that instead of just hirelings with wealth and power beyond their employer's. Hmmm...
As written, Lavinia certainly doesn't rescuing every time you turn around. In the first 4 adventures, it's only once in fact. That's not too bad.
That's what I was thinking... Rescuing her every time you turn around? Huh?
There was an offer in the first adventure to work for someone else. (I assume you are past that part), but hopefully your PC did seriously think about it when the offer was made. And since the offer was made, the following adventures all had a sidebar for what would happen if the PCs are NOT working for Lavinia. But that is all I will say on that part....
However if your DM has gotten LavOrcusinia into trouble that often maybe they are hoping she is dead before the full moon triggers the fiendish lycanthropy and you PCs still have a small chance of survival ;)
I'm playing through the STAP right now and I have to say that Lavinia is one of the most annoying characters I have ever met. It isn't really Lavinia herself (although her responsibility for the circumstances may be revealed at a later date), but rather the fact that it seems like everytime we turn around the tart is getting kidnapped or killed or whatever. And we are supposed to be working for her? Yeesh. My elf mage doesn't have a lot of patience for this kind of thing. We've already had to raise Lavinia from the dead once. If we have to do it again, he's gonna say screw it.
No spoilers please, since I'm a player.
Personally, I think this is you Dm's fault. I took one read thru of the first game, and decided Lavinia had to be changed in a big way, otherwise my players wouldn't work for her at all, let alone save her when it's needed. I changed her from a weak little girl, to a strong woman who had been groomed to take over her families fortunes whenshe came of age. I gave he a swashbuckler class, and some mage levels, and her level a little ahead of the PC's. (Having her trained by the Jade Ravens on how to fight.) I have three female players (four when I started the path) they would have ripped a damsel in distress apart if I had left it alone (not to mention what they would have done to me.)
There's a fine line between helpless damsel and strong, independant woman that if balanced right both creates a feeling of sympathy and protectiveness as well as respect from the players.
For example, when I was running TBG and the party burst in on Drevoraz and the bullywug cleric holding her and the others captive, once she got free and the party got their feet back after an initial set back in fighting them, she quickly demanded a sword to have at Drevoraz. One of my players that has one, but prefers his longbow handed her his with a bit of doubt. She then proceeded to attack with as much fierceness as a bear defending her cubs. Though she never scored a hit and the front line fighters kept moving to intercept any counter attacks to her, after the fight the players had quite a bit more respect for her and became much more emotionally involved in being her "personal adventurers and troubleshooters". Granted, after the fight she was convinced to hole up in one of the upstairs rooms while the PCs cleared out the rest of her mansion of bullywugs and she promptly began weeping over Kora.
It's this constant combination of toughness and vulnerability that makes her a great heroine worth working for and protecting, not even so much for the gold, but on a personal level.
Now, your DM may be doing all of these things well and you just don't like Lavinia, Airwalkrr. Or possibly you're chaffing at the sense of railroading that adventure paths can't quite avoid (I mean the word "path" already assumes a set course). Or maybe your DM hasn't developed Lavinia as more than just a wealthy employer. I dunno, but it's not really the NPC. As written she's neither obnoxious, condescending or snobbish. The things you may normally associate with nobility. She's a pretty normal girl with a lot of bad luck lately. If played right, she is quite likeable.
That's what I was thinking... Rescuing her every time you turn around? Huh?
As written, Lavinia certainly doesn't rescuing every time you turn around. In the first 4 adventures, it's only once in fact. That's not too bad.
Well, rescuing directly, yes. But the first adventure has the characters recovering her ship for her, escorting her to recover her trust fund and then looking for her brother for her and then recovering the stolen trust fund. Some players may not mind that, others may think that maybe she needs to start doing things for herself once in a while.
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It's this constant combination of toughness and vulnerability that makes her a great heroine worth working for and protecting, not even so much for the gold, but on a personal level.
Yeah, I've found her to be one of the most likeable "patron" NPCs I've ever encountered. There is one character in my group that doesn't care for her one bit, but I think all my players either like her or don't feel one way or another about her.
I'm nevertheless sorry to hear about your difficulties, airwalkr; perhaps you could talk to your DM about your character working with the party as a sort of spy, covertly reporting to a more competent employer? Could add some intrigue, let you play your character how you feel he should behave, and maintains party unity for the continuation of the path.
I honestly think it's all in how she is played.
And the idea of PC's having a noble patron is quite common to some campaigns. They have money, which PC's want, but they need firepower--which PC's have.
One of my players is interested in Lavina romantically, so that helps me out a bit.
Clearly, Lavinia can be played to either be lame or supersweet. However, I think this thread illustrates the danger of having a single patron be the impetus for an entire campaign arc. Sure, the PCs get to choose between Lavinia and Rowyn -- which I thought was a really smart set up on the part of James and company. In the next arc, however, I'd like to see the PCs get the choice of multiple patrons -- a temple, a powerful lord, a thieves or wizards guild. That way, about the time the patron starts to get annoying to some or all of the PCs, the DM can rotate in a new patron for an adventure or two. The STAP already touches on such an approach with the affiliation rewards.
Honestly, I'm hoping one of my PCs considers her as a love interest. Really, its as if every one of my players is absolutely adverse to the idea of romance in a D&D game...oh, well. Maybe that Charisma score will get bumped up, and I can describe her like Keira Knightly, a la Pirates of the Carribean. ;-)
Worse comes to worse, maybe they'll like Rowyn more. A tattooed bad girl with a pet dragon. Huzzah!
Lavinia isn't supposed to piss you off just like the savage creatures arn't supposed to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. I'd say it's down to the DM and how she/he has used the character so far.
You should have a quiet and friendly word with your friend the DM and explain that you feel this way. :)
Either that or your party have a lack of empathy for a young noble woman who is trying to cope with the death of her parents, money troubles and all the problems with her brother as best she can in a cruel world?
I'd say the DM is perfectly within his or her rights to make Lavina someone they dislike or not as the DM sees fit. 'Course if that causes problems down the road the DM has no one to blame but themself.
Clearly, Lavinia can be played to either be lame or supersweet. However, I think this thread illustrates the danger of having a single patron be the impetus for an entire campaign arc. Sure, the PCs get to choose between Lavinia and Rowyn -- which I thought was a really smart set up on the part of James and company. In the next arc, however, I'd like to see the PCs get the choice of multiple patrons -- a temple, a powerful lord, a thieves or wizards guild. That way, about the time the patron starts to get annoying to some or all of the PCs, the DM can rotate in a new patron for an adventure or two. The STAP already touches on such an approach with the affiliation rewards.
Toss it into the campaign background (like what we got with Sasserine and the rest of the towns) and let the DM sort it out, but try and give all the organizations some link to the campaign as a whole.
Creative Director
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One thing to keep in mind... a pre-written adventure like "There Is No Honor" absolutely Can Not plan for every party. For most parties, Lavinia'll make a great patron. For those who rankle at the thought of being helpful and kind, there's always Rowyn. That said, it's a waste of space to go into lots of details about five different possible patrons, especially since any one group's only really gonna need one patron, or maybe 2. FAR better to detail the one or two and then spend the space on more adventure rather than more patrons. If you've got a group who doesn't work well with a supplied patron, it's up to you to make the changes.
Actually... now that I think of it, the first "Savage Tidings" in Dragon did just this; it provided six additional patrons in the form of affiliations that the PCs can join, including (among other things) a council of nobles, a temple, and a wizard's guild...
Well, my biggest problem with Lavinia has little to do with her personality, and everything to do with her relative powerlessness. Other than the fact that she has money (well, some), she is hardly an inspiring character to work for. She never hired us as bodyguards, she told us that was the job of the Jade Ravens (maybe we were supposed to be her bodyguards, but I never got that impression, nor would my character stoop to such low work).
We have had to save Lavinia on three separate occassions in which it seemed, had it not been for us, she would be dead and at the bottom of the ocean in cement shoes. The DM roleplays her well enough. The problem is simply that every time we turn around we have to rescue her. My character is strongly considering going rogue and abandoning her. If he was a little bit wealthier then he would probably try to convince the rest of the party to do it. We are using affiliations and my character has some connections that would probably pay off with what we know.
It seems to me that this is a good opportunity to try to convince Lavinia that her current bodyguards are insufficient, and maybe she should be paying you MORE to act as double-duty. Instead of complaining about it, try to use it to your advantage.
After all, Lavinia can't help the fact that she has enemies, but you can certainly do something about her protection.
"No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit? I feel like the maid; I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for... for ten minutes!"
Heh.
My PCs have had to bail their patron out a few times as well, but she's always remunerated them generously for their derring-do and conspicuous gallantry. Being the heroic types they are, though, they always claim it was their honor and pleasure to defend her.
Have you ever considered maybe a career in haberdashery? Once those goods get sold, they stay sold, by gum!
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James, is there a reason you made Wisdom her dump stat instead of Strength? I'm inclined to swap them and attribute her paying taxes without witnesses to youthful indiscretion, inexperience, or grief. Does she need the extra strength to be a credible combatant in SOS or somewhere?
Exactly how often does everyone have her needing rescue?
There's the tax money and maybe the vault in TINH. She puts up a defense in TBG, but the opposition has the advantages of surprise and the lack of police, plus this opposition comes from nowhere. No one could have predicted them. In SWW she manages just fine. In HTBM, she gets established and starts ginning up a list of work like any competent manager would. She spends TOD solidifying her powerbase and managing. The only reason she needs rescue in TOD is so that the PCs can see some resolution with their own nemesis! Based on how TOD is expected to go, she's the local NPC in charge for all of TLD and COBI, with nary a rescue in sight. SOS and ITM are one big rescue, but also a chase for revenge, and the start of something that eaves her in insignificance. I'd say that's only 3 rescues and a bunch of heroic jobs.
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Creative Director
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James, is there a reason you made Wisdom her dump stat instead of Strength? I'm inclined to swap them and attribute her paying taxes without witnesses to youthful indiscretion, inexperience, or grief. Does she need the extra strength to be a credible combatant in SOS or somewhere?
She eventually starts taking levels in swashbuckler, and Wisdom is less important than Strength. In addition, a low Wisdom helps explain why she takes so long to realize her brother Vanthus is a bad seed (low Sense Motive). And as a swashbuckler, she'll be using skills like Climb, Jump, and Swim a fair amount. And on top of all that, it just felt right for her character to set up her stats the way they were set up.
It seems to me that this is a good opportunity to try to convince Lavinia that her current bodyguards are insufficient, and maybe she should be paying you MORE to act as double-duty. Instead of complaining about it, try to use it to your advantage.
Oh believe me. We have! :) Everytime she gets herself in trouble like that we demand a raise. And so far she has given us one each time. Like I said, money was the ONLY reason my character is sticking around.
Oh believe me. We have! :) Everytime she gets herself in trouble like that we demand a raise. And so far she has given us one each time. Like I said, money was the ONLY reason my character is sticking around.
It seems to me that this is a good opportunity to try to convince Lavinia that her current bodyguards are insufficient, and maybe she should be paying you MORE to act as double-duty. Instead of complaining about it, try to use it to your advantage.
You could take it even further, and go have a little "discussion" with the Jade Ravens about why they always seem to be screwing it up :)
Good idea, Schmoe. I might have to try that next session.