I'm making a rogue for an Outlaws of Alkenstar campaign and figured, "I should try and get a gun to work."
At first I tried to get a rapier and pistol, but without Way of the Drifter from Gunslinger, you can't reload the pistol. Air repeaters have other problems like expensive ammunition (1 sp each) and very low damage.
I had almost got it to work with a 2-handed gun as you could still reload a 2-handed gun, and fitting a bayonet or reinforced stock would give me melee attacks without having to spend Interact actions to switch-hit. Unconventional Weaponry (see note) would be used to get scaling jezail proficiency and I'd have a good ranged weapon to boot, sacrificing the critical specialization for a better die over the flintlock.
However, I just checked back and the Bayonet and Reinforced Stock are both martial weapons - even though the stat profile is equivalent to the respective dagger or light mace. As they are common weapons, they would never qualify for Unconventional Weaponry even if I swapped to a simple flintlock musket.
Is there a cost-effective way to have both a firearm and a melee attack on a rogue that can both scale without Release/Interact, or is the general feat Weapon Proficiency the only way which still falls behind from level 5 onwards?
Free archetype rules are on, but the archetype feats ended up being decided upon before the class so I can't use that without starting over. I'd end up going Investigator otherwise for full martial proficiency with similar skill progression but I don't like its implementation in 2e at all.
What ancestry did you choose?
Being a human, you might take versatile heritage, getting adopted ancestry dwarf and getting dwarven weapon familiarity, in order to unlock the Clan Pistol ( or the dwarven scattergun ).
Past lvl 1 would be up to you what path to pursue ( remember you can retrain, so make a good use of the feature ).
The swordmaster archetype, for example, would allow you to raise your firearm proficiency to master by lvl 13, like a true swordmaster.
Human though Unconventional Weaponry would already qualify the dwarf weapon without needing to dip into Adopted Ancestry anyway. But the coat pistol is a simple weapon and would be 'good enough' especially with the Concealable trait, but still runs into the same problems of 1-handed firearms in that they also require 2 hands to reload anyway.
The main question is how to also have the melee attack without dropping weapons, or Interacting.
Swordmaster has the problem as other dedications in that it only gets the Expert proficiency feat at level 10. The AP ends at 10, so it doesn't solve problems except for perhaps the final few encounters. Besides, it's also only accessible to characters in the PFS and I doubt a wanted criminal would be in the Society to have access in the first place.
Pistol phenom is a great choice if you are building for charisma. Only way to feint at range aside from thaumaturges weird feint thing they get.
aobst128 wrote: Pistol phenom is a great choice if you are building for charisma. Only way to feint at range aside from thaumaturges weird feint thing they get. It would be a charisma build, using Demoralise and Dread Striker to get flat-footed (and Hiding or using melee at levels 1-3). Pistol Phenom sounds good, but I don't see how it reloads the pistol with a sword in hand.
You could go for adopted ancestry and go dwarf to get access to the clan pistol. Speaking of thaumaturge, thaumaturge ammunition allows you to reload with your hands full as long as one hand is holding an implement, which conveniently can be the very gun you're wielding.
Didn't know the length of the AP.
As for unconventional weaponry, I know.
But being able to carry a long range gun to sniper and a pistol for close combat ( skirmishing ) would allow you to swap roles if needed ( thought dealing with recharge as well as sneak/take cover, in order to deliver a sneak attack, may result into something so twisting not worth mentioning).
Coat pistol is pretty nice for a simple weapon ( if you like it, ruffian racket is the way ).
Are you sure it requires 2 hands to reload a firearm?
Quote: Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon. So, what about being a ruffian ( to get proficiency in all simple weapons ) and using unarmed attacks?
By lvl 2 you might consider getting the monk dedication or martial artist archetype.
By lvl 4 you'll retrain into gunslinger ( lvl 2 ) with dualweapon rload ( lvl 4 ), using the melee weapon you like.
What's up with ruffian being good with guns? They're just there to be the strength build and use non finesse/agile simple weapons like the longspear and thundermace.
aobst128 wrote: What's up with ruffian being good with guns? They're just there to be the strength build and use non finesse/agile simple weapons like the longspear and thundermace. They can choose between dex and an extra stat, depends the racket
You can choose Strength as your key ability score.
And deliver sneak attack ( and critical specialization ) with any simple weapon with damage die not larget than 1d8.
You use whatever tools you have at hand to get the job done. You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the flat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you're wielding. You don't gain these benefits if the weapon has a damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its damage die size).
A rogue is traned in all simple weapons, but can deliver sneak attacks with only a limited list of em. A ruffian goes through the limits.
There is also Capacity weapons like the Pepperbox and Slide Pistol. They are also Martial weapons, so dropping them to Simple weapons with Unconventional Weaponry or increasing your proficiency in Martial weapons is still needed.
Cycling to the next chamber doesn't require a free hand, but does still require an action spent. It can also only be done a limited number of times before actual reloading is needed.
But many fights don't last long enough to run out of rounds loaded. Especially when you are only using the firearm as part of your combat tactics rather than using it exclusively.
HumbleGamer wrote:
Are you sure it requires 2 hands to reload a firearm?
Quote: Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
I'm talking about 1-handed guns. You have a pistol in 1 hand, a sword in the other. Neither are free and you can't switch your grip to not hold a gun at all. Reloading Strike implies this as well as it states you do not require a free hand when performing the action. As does Dual-Weapon Reload, which you mentioned.
Quote:
So, what about being a ruffian ( to get proficiency in all simple weapons ) and using unarmed attacks?
By lvl 2 you might consider getting the monk dedication or martial artist archetype.
By lvl 4 you'll retrain into gunslinger ( lvl 2 ) with dualweapon rload ( lvl 4 ), using the melee weapon you like.
Ruffian wouldn't even be required. Sneak attacks can be executed with agile or finesse unarmed attacks anyway, even with a different racket.
Sneak Attack wrote: When your enemy can't properly defend itself, you take advantage to deal extra damage. If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse. Though it would be nice if I didn't have to just punch things.
I have also been informed that there is no opportunity for retraining. The AP has no brakes, at least for the first book.
Unless your foe is immune to nonlethal damage, you can always just punch it: Your 'simple' Fist (Agile, Finesse, Nonlethal, Unarmed) qualifies for sneak attack, so it won't lag too far behind a normal rogue weapon as long as you invest in Handwraps of Mighty Blows.
If you really don't like the d4 damage die or nonlethal damage, there is always the Martial Artist Dedication feat.
Alternately, the Rogue's Quick Draw feat allows you to draw a conventional offhand weapon (which can use Blazons of Shared Power to share rune with your pistol) without using an action when a foe gets in your face, but it will still provoke an Opportunity Attack if the foe has one...
If you're okay sticking with simple firearms like a coat pistol or a flintlock pistol, one other idea would be to use unconventional weaponry to become proficient with a Bladed Guantlet, which is a free-hand finesse weapon. It's modular too, so can get around most specific physical resistances.
My bad for the ruffian ( I was sure the other rackets were somehow also limited in terms of ranged weapons ).
Feragore wrote: didn't have to just punch things.
I have also been informed that there is no opportunity for retraining. The AP has no brakes, at least for the first book.
That may be bad.
Given the fact it lasts till lvl 10, how many books there are ( for AP 1-20, by the end of book 1 you'll hit lvl 5 )?
Knowing how many lvl per book, you may be able to plan things ahead ( after all, it's not your fault that the system makes things hard for you in order to play the character you want ).
What about this:
By lvl 2 you'll get quick draw.
By lvl 3 you'll get a bayonet ( you won't be using it ) and doubling rings.
Quote: This item consists of two magically linked rings: an intricate, gleaming golden ring with a square-cut ruby, and a thick, plain iron ring. When you wield a melee weapon in the hand wearing the golden ring, the weapon’s fundamental runes are replicated onto any melee weapon you wield in the hand wearing the iron ring. (The fundamental runes are weapon potency and striking, which add an item bonus to attack rolls and extra weapon damage dice, respectively.) Any fundamental runes on the weapon in the hand wearing the iron ring are suppressed.
The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands. Consequently, the benefit doesn’t apply to thrown attacks or if you’re holding a weapon but not wielding it (such as holding in one hand a weapon that requires two hands to wield).
Golden ring for the bayonet, and iron ring in the other hand.
You'll then draw and attack with several daggers, dropping then when you need to reload.
HumbleGamer wrote: aobst128 wrote: What's up with ruffian being good with guns? They're just there to be the strength build and use non finesse/agile simple weapons like the longspear and thundermace. They can choose between dex and an extra stat, depends the racket
You can choose Strength as your key ability score.
And deliver sneak attack ( and critical specialization ) with any simple weapon with damage die not larget than 1d8.
You use whatever tools you have at hand to get the job done. You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the flat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you're wielding. You don't gain these benefits if the weapon has a damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its damage die size).
A rogue is traned in all simple weapons, but can deliver sneak attacks with only a limited list of em. A ruffian goes through the limits. Baseline Sneak Attack already works with a couple of decent d6 melee weapons (Shortsword and Rapier) and all ranged weapons, so the Ruffian doesn't typically add a lot of decent options (I believe the Longspear for 1d8 dmg and the reach trait is the traditional choice).
Sneak Attack wrote:
When your enemy can't properly defend itself, you take advantage to deal extra damage. If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.
As your rogue level increases, so does the number of damage dice for your sneak attack. Increase the number of dice by one at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. What it does add are a couple of Free-Hand options (Gauntlet, Knuckle Duster, & Spiked Gauntlet) that might be useful, but without the finesse trait you are either going to be rather sub-par with them or heavily investing in Strength (which you don't otherwise need) to get your attack bonus up.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Rogue with a gun is all about debuffing, and then maximizing every bonus you can into crit fishing with sneak attack. The damage totals can get very ugly. The issue that you have identified is that it takes some leveling up before the gun attack is worth doing more than once per combat.
Once you can save up the money, you are going to want to invest in multiple pistols that you quick draw, fire and drop. This will also free you to use melee weapons when that makes more sense to use them as well.
A pretty interesting build for this would be a goblin with a big boom gun. which you can use regularly just with goblin weapon familiarity. Since you only ever want to be firing this gun when you can get maximum accuracy bonuses, the cobbled and "blow up in your face" traits of the gun can be fairly minimized.
To make the most effective build with this, I would strongly consider going a trick magic item rouge route and picking up scrolls of true strike.
I guess a ruffian rogue that eventually got a staff of divination could work here, but it would be well towards the end of the AP before you had that up and working.
This is a high-risk, high reward build, but you are going to have moments that absolutely obliterate enemies with a single shot. targeting a flat-footed, frightened 1 or occasionally 2 enemy is something you should be able to do close to once a round. This will get you into the 20 to 25% crit range against most enemies, and is when you want to let rip with the Big Boom Gun.
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Unicore wrote: The Rogue with a gun is all about debuffing, and then maximizing every bonus you can into crit fishing with sneak attack. The damage totals can get very ugly. The issue that you have identified is that it takes some leveling up before the gun attack is worth doing more than once per combat.
Once you can save up the money, you are going to want to invest in multiple pistols that you quick draw, fire and drop. This will also free you to use melee weapons when that makes more sense to use them as well.
A pretty interesting build for this would be a goblin with a big boom gun. which you can use regularly just with goblin weapon familiarity. Since you only ever want to be firing this gun when you can get maximum accuracy bonuses, the cobbled and "blow up in your face" traits of the gun can be fairly minimized.
To make the most effective build with this, I would strongly consider going a trick magic item rouge route and picking up scrolls of true strike.
I guess a ruffian rogue that eventually got a staff of divination could work here, but it would be well towards the end of the AP before you had that up and working.
This is a high-risk, high reward build, but you are going to have moments that absolutely obliterate enemies with a single shot. targeting a flat-footed, frightened 1 or occasionally 2 enemy is something you should be able to do close to once a round. This will get you into the 20 to 25% crit range against most enemies, and is when you want to let rip with the Big Boom Gun.
There's actually a magic item that was made specifically for the brace of pistols playstyle: the Gunner's Bandolier.
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