By the way, most gender theorists will tell you that gender (as opposed to biological sex) is a cultural construct, i.e. a set of ideas and expectations about how men and women should act that both men and women in a particular culture generally buy into uncritically, but in fact aren't immutable. Gender changes over time and across cultural boundaries, but it appears to most people as an immutable natural or biological phenomenon. (This isn't to say that gender is not conditioned by biology--the biology of reproduction and childbearing and the resultant differences in male and female bodies obviously have a profound impact on gender as it is constructed in every human culture, and there are broad similarities between the construction of gender in cultures that share similar ecologies. It's interesting to think about how fantasy races with very different ecologies, lifespans, and reproductive rates might construct their gender roles different from the way human cultures do. For example, we can guess that elves have to devote considerably fewer biological resources into reproduction than humans--because of their long life-spans, female elves presumably spend much less time, on average, being pregnant and nursing infants than humans do. This is reflected biologically in a much smaller degree of sexual dimorphism than we see in humans, and might be reflected culturally in much less sharp differentiation in gender roles. (Varsuvius in OOTS is a caricature of this idea).
For those of you who feel as though you can't figure out how to play a female character, perhaps you've had trouble getting a critical distance from our own culture's construction of gender? And perhaps you have assumed that women of other races and cultures all think and behave like women the women from your own social environment that you have trouble understanding? Not saying this to criticize or make anyone feel guilty for not playing characters of the opposite gender--just to get folks to think and broaden their viewpoints a bit.
Sorry if anyone finds this post annoying or disturbingly post-modern!
Having had some bad experiences with men playing women charactrs I passed down a judgement in my game requiring same gendered player/characters. I review such requests on a case by case basis, and have made some exceptions often with bad results. The maturity of the player matters, but also the maturity of the group. Typiclly women play men better than men play women in my experience as a DM and player.
In electronic games it depends on the game. In DDO I play female charaters because it gives me a better point of view of the screen/battlefield. The back side of a warforged charater (my personal favorite)takes up a HUGE portion of the screen. Where female charaters use a smaller percentage of the screen giving me a better view of my surroundings. Perhaps the role of gender/size bias of game characters could be studied?
Having had some bad experiences with men playing women charactrs I passed down a judgement in my game requiring same gendered player/characters. I review such requests on a case by case basis, and have made some exceptions often with bad results. The maturity of the player matters, but also the maturity of the group. Typiclly women play men better than men play women in my experience as a DM and player.
I have played in groups that banned playing opposite genders too. And can clearly understand why. Most have been awful. Being honest my early attempts failed terribly. I got better, so I have believe others could too.
But to be fair, women play men as badly as men play women. It's a very different mindset. The last big RP I was in (online forum RP, but still an RP)you could always spot the man being played by a woman. They either over-do the machismo to such a degree it's insane or underplay it to the point of being overwhelmed by wishy-washy character.
Awesome points.
Awesome points. Again.
Thank you.
At some point in here, perhaps I'll be able to get my own thoughts on the matter constructed into a coherent post, but you've already covered pretty much every point I had to make that wasn't based on the twisted mass of whatever-it-is that is my psyche.
But to be fair, women play men as badly as men play women. It's a very different mindset.
I agree. Every time one of my female players plays a man she tries to have sex with every moderately attractive NPC the party meets. I mean some guys are like this, and it's in character (she's a rakish bard) but all her male characters (this is the third) are like this and it's a bit distressing to see how she percieves my gender!
I haven't played a female in years. I had a female charcter when I was a teenager, and to be honest no matter how much I protested about it being role-playing based, I really just wanted to draw a hot PC portrait and I enjoyed imagining my sexy character swinging on ropes, fighting bad guys and generally behaving like Lara Croft. I never really had the sense that I was the character as much as I do with a male PC. It was more like I was playing a video game and controlling her. I made no real attempt to act like an actual girl, and since I was a mage/thief (this was in 2nd ed) I wasn't expected to have to do any overly masculine things so it was easy.
I'm not saying no man plays a woman for role-playing purposes, but I certainly did it for aesthetic reasons.
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I did it once in the '70's. I read somewhere that Merlin was the outcome of a female wizard and an incubus. Yea, i wanted to have a super child with extra powers and play him when he came of age. I figured; why not? He would have some regenerating abilities as well as some special traits unique only to him. Kids! Yes, i was one of them.
Thoth-Amon
As a Player I play my own gender 95% of the time, playing a female character is a very rare thing for me, and that is almost always drive by wanting a divers group of characters. It is not very uncommon for me to play straight characters, and since I'm a big "Flaming Gamer", I think that might be a hold over from my earlier gaming days, from when straight had more with how the hall in hte keep on the boarderlands was and not a way of living.
I do remeber when gay/straight first came up in a game that I ran, not very long after I came out to my players, it was a way of me feeling out thier reaction, (if you care it went very good).
A very straight friend of mine plays lots of female characters. He always plays them as strong well rounded characters. When I asked him about it, he's replay, "Pick up any book. movie or tv show, it would be boring if they were all guys fro mthe same background, same with our game". Both of us being military brats we both draw alot from the differnt places and people we have lived with. Hope that is some sort of help
By the way, most gender theorists will tell you that gender (as opposed to biological sex) is a cultural construct, i.e. a set of ideas and expectations about how men and women should act that both men and women in a particular culture generally buy into uncritically, but in fact aren't immutable.
True, true...there is quite many possibilities on how men and women could behave in fantastical environments which might be very different from ours (and even in our world there are big historical and geographical variations, not to mention personal ones).
To extrapolate from biological facts of reproduction, one might also decide that due to high reproduction rate of goblinoids there is possibility of diversification of gender roles...meaning that only part of female population is concerned about matters of reproduction while others go waging wars or whatever it is goblinoids like to do. Similar thing could happen with human population which for some reason keeps its number under control (potentially in any society which does not wage wars actively and thus have no need for constant replacement of warriors, usually men).
With the races which breed rarely (elves, dwarves) or with races which eg. lay eggs (lizard-, insect- and bird-related folks) all possibilities are wide open how gender roles in those societies could form, or indeed if there would be any strict ones.
Of course the bigger question often seems to be how to deal with players which carry all the baggage of our society's gender roles...
BTW, I rather like the term transvirtual :)
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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But to be fair, women play men as badly as men play women. It's a very different mindset.I agree. Every time one of my female players plays a man she tries to have sex with every moderately attractive NPC the party meets. I mean some guys are like this, and it's in character (she's a rakish bard) but all her male characters (this is the third) are like this and it's a bit distressing to see how she percieves my gender!
In Age of Worms, I played a male Rogue (same sex/gender as me) who did exactly this with every woman he met. It was quite comical, as he got shot down every time. The party and DM loved his shenanigans...
I rolled his age as 16, so I played him as a hormone-crazed teenager with a big mouth. Of course, he almost got killed several times, as I would have him intentionally fail his saves if any female tried to charm him. (He was easily influenced), and he would tend to mouth off at the worst times (taunting Hill Giants who are standing right next to you is not a good idea).
My point (if I really have one) is that there is room for stereotypical behavior in a game (same sex or otherwise) if it is part of the character concept, and the behavior is consistent throughout the campaign.
Awesome points.Awesome points. Again.Thank you.
At some point in here, perhaps I'll be able to get my own thoughts on the matter constructed into a coherent post, but you've already covered pretty much every point I had to make that wasn't based on the twisted mass of whatever-it-is that is my psyche.
Didn't quite catch which of my points you agreed with--the quote got erased somehow. (Just interested to see what people agree with or disagree with, as this is an interesting issue, I think).
Didn't quite catch which of my points you agreed with--the quote got erased somehow. (Just interested to see what people agree with or disagree with, as this is an interesting issue, I think).
I abbreviated the posts to avoid creating a ridiculously long post which could be summarized in its entirety to "Me too!"
The first instance of awesome points which prompted me to respond was the statement that there is such diversity within the genders that there's no reason that a male couldn't play a plausible (if somewhat untraditional) female with a reasonable effort.
The second was the point of gender being a social construct. I figure that it's entirely within the realm of possibility -- particularly in the long lived races in which childbearing and nurturing takes up a smaller portion of the individual's lifetime -- that a given culture might have gender roles so different from those of the player's cultures that a player would find it easier to identify with members of the opposite gender.
Modesitt's Corean Chronicles trilogy has such a culture in Madrien, which always seemed to me to make the gender bias among the drow of the Underdark look lenient in comparison. Some might be interested in playing a character who's been raised from his youth to be taught that he is not only inferior by the nature of his birth, but innately dangerous to those around him; I'd imagine that a fair number of male players would just assign themselves a small cup size, a low alto voice, and go on with their business, maybe indulging in small fits of misandry as appropriate.
Though, I'm a bit of a kettle-pot myself, as I've played a grand total of one and two fifths male characters to date -- a nonelite human warrior whose sole purpose was to die horribly, and two male personalities (not very good ones, at that) who were still outnumbered by the three female ones and never saw play anyway because of the way travel time worked out.
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I’m male, and have been playing RPGs (mostly d&d) for almost twenty years. I don’t play online roleplaying games, just the traditional pen and paper sort.
As a player, I more often play male characters than female, but have played quite a number of female characters over the years. The reasons why I have played these characters are varied;
The character concept I have in mind is female (often inspired by a character in a movie or book or something);
The image I have in mind for the character is female (often inspired by a piece of artwork – like the doomguard chick in the planescape book for example);
For variety, if I’ve played a few male characters lately
To explore a particular character concept, like the strong, fearless fighter who has a strong feminine side outside the dungeon;
In reaction to ingame events, such as the time our (all male) group was almost tpk’d in an encounter involving an evil nymph (in the old edition of the game at least, her blindness / death power only worked on males);
I often like sketching or drawing my character, and I find females nicer to draw (And nicer to look at the drawings).
I consider myself a good roleplayer, but I have to admit a lot of the female characters I probably didn’t roleplay a whole lot differently to how I would have if they were male. There’s exceptions to this, but many of the games I play in (as opposed to the ones I DM) are very much “in the dungeon”, theres little time or consideration given over to the characters’ lives outside the adventure, and not much focus on relationships, romances or non-adventuring past times. Many of my female (and male) characters are strong willed and focused on their goals, and in my opinion would do things or react to things during an adventure in much the same way. I have had characters (of both genders) be involved in relationships with other characters or NPCs, but this is not a focus of most of our games, and generally done “off screen”m though it obviously does have some impact on roleplaying interaction.
As a DM/GM I role play many female characters as the story calls for them, and I try to people my world with a relatively even mix of male and female characters in a variety of roles. This reflects my perception that a good fantasy RPG world should have some sort of gender equality. I consider it a failing on my part if the players can’t later remember what gender an NPC I was portraying was.
As an aside, I was a bit surprised to hear from a number of posters saying that they do not allow players to portray characters of the opposite gender. I guess if there’s been some bad experiences with that, it’s a reasonable tactic to try to avoid further bad experiences, but…. It’s a roleplaying game, surely people should be able to play the role they want to, especially if its one which has little impact from a rules point of view? I sometimes think people don’t roleplay non-human characters “correctly” (Well that is, the way I perceive they should be played), but I don’t ban people from playing them. I just think that’s interesting.
well, in online games I tend to play females cause of the basic thing of what male would want to look at a dudes butt all day; playing females is bit weird maybe, but easier on the eyes.
in pen and paper games; sometimes I play them to typify or roleplay a certain attitude that guys just dont have; I suppose this is a bit stereotypical, but the female characters I play often are a bit coniving and wheedle others in to doing what that character wants and much more social; my guy characters take charge a bit more and are more perhaps belligerant and self reliant. Is kinda funny because my wife plays strong barbarian women and mousey men.
I don't play female characters, and I generally dislike it when other males do (although I have seen some do it well) because, frankly, I don't think I can do a female justice. There are certain aspects of being a female that I don't think I could perfectly capture, nor could I incorporate the subtle nuances of a woman into my playstyle, I think.
This sums it up for me, too. I find it plenty challenging to portray a member of another race and/or culture, without adding gender to the mix. And in my experience, other players don't do a very good job of portraying characters of the opposite sex, either, so I prefer it if everyone just sticks with their own "equipment."
So if half the population is the opposite sex, then I would assume most people have been arround, associated with and observed members of the opposite sex, then why is it so hard to role play a member of the opposite sex? If you can role play a dwarf or elf or 1/2 orc, which doesn't exist, how do you know you are roleplaying them right? That arguement just doesn't work for me.
I think for men who say, "I just can't get into the female mind set that is why I don't play chics in D&D.", there is a bit of machismo, making them feel uncomfortable with it.
As far as me role playing a female correctly. I know deep down I will never truly understand what makes a women tick (I'll give you three reasons, all bellow my belly and above my knees), but I feel I have been arround enough women to know how many behave. So in a game I feel I represent women or how they may act descent, enough to play a semi-weekly freindly game of D&D. we have a women in our gaming group, my female wizard and her female halfing will stand in the back as the "boys" rush into one danger after the next, shaking thier heads sighing "Huh boys!" Anyway if she doesn't mind I don't see why any other man would have a problem, unless it makes him feel uncomfortable.., you know because of the machismo.
Don't get me wrong, just because a man feels uncomfortable about another man rolepalying a woman, doesn't make him a homophobe. Just uncomfortable. I don't believe homophobiacs are deep down latent homosexuals, I believe homophobia is from cultural moores and up bringing. But I do think men with a problem with roleplaying women or other men playing women, have some concerns about masculinity and what that means, and role playing women may seem unmasculine.
But then I think men who role play women do so because of fantasies about women, not so much about fantasizing about being a women, of course I can only speak for my self on that one.
I don't see playing a female all that different from playing an elf. If anything, it's better. Females have books and books of backstory and an established character flavour. I've actually never done it, but I really don't have any objection to it.
At the gaming table, I typically play male characters. Or, een bettr, nongender characters or shapeshifters who can go from one gender to another, as best suits the situation. I have played the occasional female character.
As far as online games, such as Everquest and the like, I usually play female characters. I have two major reasons for this:
1. The same suit of armor, or magical robes, looked fantastically better on a female character than a male character of the same race and class. I'm guessing that the majority of gaming graphics designers must be male... But, anyway, as in real life, sometimes it's all about fashion, lol.
2. I would frequently run into ignorance and prejudice online, and by assuming a female persona, I could talk (mostly) openly about whatever my recent annoyance with whichever guy I'm dating. Yeah, I guess that means that I'm kinda a sell out... but the way I see it, everyone plays a MMORPG for fun. And, if a female character complaining about man trouble makes the small minded rabble feel better and safe and secure, then so be it.
Besides, it makes for fun moments when I meet guild members for the first time in person (as only those who make it to our annual bonfire & party know who I am behind the pixels, and we have all decided to keep it between us for various hilarity that ensues).
So if half the population is the opposite sex, then I would assume most people have been arround, associated with and observed members of the opposite sex, then why is it so hard to role play a member of the opposite sex?
It's hard for me as a male to role-play a female for the same reason it's hard for me as a white man to imagine what it's like to be black or Asian. It doesn't really matter that I've been around, associated with, and observed members of other races/cultures. I don't know what it's like to actually be in their skin, so it's more difficult to act like one of them.
That's not to say it's impossible or shouldn't be attempted. If I were really curious and wanted to explore the idea of being a different race or gender, I could do so and there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. But I'm not particularly interested in playing a character of the opposite sex, so I don't. And I'm not particularly interested in other people playing characters of the opposite sex, either, so I prefer that they not do it. I won't throw a fit or anything if someone wants to, but if you give me the choice I'll pick "everyone plays their own gender" every time.
If you can role play a dwarf or elf or 1/2 orc, which doesn't exist, how do you know you are roleplaying them right?
Since they don't exist, you can't possibly play them "wrong." And as I said above, I find playing a member of an imaginary race/culture challenging enough without adding gender to the mix.
It's hard for me as a male to role-play a female for the same reason it's hard for me as a white man to imagine what it's like to be black or Asian. It doesn't really matter that I've been around, associated with, and observed members of other races/cultures. I don't know what it's like to actually be in their skin, so it's more difficult to act like one of them.
Well, I roleplay all the time real-life things I am not. I have never killed another sentient being. I don't think I even ever had a real possibility. I have never been a blacksmith. I haven't been 50 years old. I haven't been orphaned from birth, scrounging my livelihood pickpocketing in streets. I have never been married. Yet I have characters who are doing that...I am not sure how convincing 50-year old blacksmith I do but it doesn't stop me from trying to extrapolate from my personal experiences what would 50-year old blacksmith do when horde of orcs threaten her home village...
And if still in doubt, as said before concept of genders might be very different in imaginary cultures and races, so mixing gender with elves or dwarves is by nature different from humans..."female half-orcs of Kshar'hax mountains kick ass while males contemplate their navels".
I think a more enlightening question might be "what's wrong with playing a character of the opposite gender?"
Certainly this thread started because of a perceived 'wrongness' about the activity. Interestingly, though, few posters have objected to such play.
Personally, I think the answer is "nothing." The problem (IMO) is that other players at the table are disturbed by watching a person move outside his/her traditional gender roles. I'm sure this is obvious to many (or most), but I think it's worth saying explicitly -- the player's doing nothing wrong, rather other players are enforcing standards of conduct irrelevant to (or even contradictory to the point of) a roleplaying game.
Here's a related question that's interested me: when someone in your group is playing a member of the opposite sex and others tend to stick to characters of the same gender, has there ever been in-game romance where the players were both members of the same sex? I ask because I've never seen it happen personally.
I once played a female monk named Cherry Blossom. My friend was a male monk (can't remember his name). Anyway, in a debate over the fate of an evil and sentient magical tome, Cherry jumped on a table and slipped. THe other monk (male), grapped her, kept her from falling and w/ Cherry in his arm they shared a kiss.
It was cool moment that everybody in the game talked about (all male group).I would say every other male character in the game tried hitting on her, the other monk was the only who got a kiss. I thought it was funny that, Cherry was having an affair with the cabin boy instead of these exciting adventurers.
None of the other players (all male) had a problem w/ me playing a female. except for the fact that she would fool arround with the cabin boy and not none of them obviously superior adventurer types.
For the original poster--if you want something a little more durable that you can cite in your essay on this topic (more durable than a thread that will be archived in a few weeks or less), you might look at James Jacobs' editorial in this month's Dungeon (if you haven't already).
Don't forget to cite your sources properly!!!! (I'm a college professor by trade, so you'll understand my concern with this!)
For everyone else--I'm honestly surprised at how many people have rules or strong preferences against roleplaying a member of the opposite sex, even though they may be a minority overall. This is not meant as criticism, maybe just a sign that as an academic I operate in social circles that are very open-minded (at least in certain ways) and encourage looking at the world from a different angle--something that roleplaying a different gender can help one to do. But I've only played in one group that had other academic-types in it, and in that one, ironically, everyone was playing a character of his or her own gender. The other groups have all had "transvirtuals" in them, and as far as I know, no one felt uncomfortable about them.
Well, I've already said my piece above, so I won't blather any further.
For the original poster--if you want something a little more durable that you can cite in your essay on this topic (more durable than a thread that will be archived in a few weeks or less), you might look at James Jacobs' editorial in this month's Dungeon (if you haven't already).
Don't forget to cite your sources properly!!!! (I'm a college professor by trade, so you'll understand my concern with this!)
For the origional poster, read Peruhain's comments on gender studies above. If you are writing an essay for class, everything that folks say on these boards can be used as thesis fodder, but for references, you'll want to read gender touchstone texts like De Beauvoir: "Second S*x". I may also suggest (as i have many times on these boards), reading the authoritative text on RPG theory: Allen Fine: "Shared Fantasy: Role Playing Games as Social Worlds"
The latter is the most germane to what you will be writing about, but the theories taht Fine uses to approach the gaming subculture, sociologically, are the classic ones found and applied in Literary Theory. Both the chapters based on gender study theory and psychoanalysis will be of most use to you in your endeavor.
I'm assuming the assignment is one that requires scholarly references, but if not, there's no need to cite sources i suppose. If you need direction in finding other texts and essays about this topic, let me know...I have a nice little collection of such references at home.
As ever,
ACE
By the way, most gender theorists will tell you that gender (as opposed to biological sex) is a cultural construct, i.e. a set of ideas and expectations about how men and women should act that both men and women in a particular culture generally buy into uncritically, but in fact aren't immutable. Gender changes over time and across cultural boundaries, but it appears to most people as an immutable natural or biological phenomenon. (This isn't to say that gender is not conditioned by biology--the biology of reproduction and childbearing and the resultant differences in male and female bodies obviously have a profound impact on gender as it is constructed in every human culture, and there are broad similarities between the construction of gender in cultures that share similar ecologies.
By the way, this is good stuff. For those looking to explore the *why* of players playing the opposite s*x in a fantasy game, gender studies theory should be the starting point for discussion in my opinion.
As ever,
ACE
For everyone else--I'm honestly surprised at how many people have rules or strong preferences against roleplaying a member of the opposite sex, even though they may be a minority overall. This is not meant as criticism, maybe just a sign that as an academic I operate in social circles that are very open-minded (at least in certain ways) and encourage looking at the world from a different angle--something that roleplaying a different gender can help one to do. But I've only played in one group that had other academic-types in it, and in that one, ironically, everyone was playing a character of his or her own gender. The other groups have all had "transvirtuals" in them, and as far as I know, no one felt uncomfortable about them.
I had the same observations Peruhain. I honestly didn't expect so many people to have such strong preferences against playing crossgender. I suppose it's like one of those wake-up calls where I realize that not everyone drives a volvo and reads the New York Times...
But for the subject at hand, although I've gamed with three different transgendered players, I've never gamed with someone who had a cross-gendered character.
I'm also awfully curious about the split between PnP gaming and online/video gaming. I never really realized it, but I suppose that one of the reasons why I don't like online gaming is that I like my character to be the subject, not the object of the gameplay. If one's main reason for playing a cross gendered character in an online game is because "it's a lot easier to look at a female backside," that tells me that there's not a lot of identification that's happeining between the player and the character.
Just a couple of thoughts.
El Skootro
...that tells me that there's not a lot of identification that's happeining between the player and the character.
Very true. When I play Diablo or WoW, I just assume that whenever someone types "I, me, mine, etc." they are referring to themselves rather than their characters, and I assume that others make similar assumptions about what I type onto the screen. Oddly enough, it's incredibly easy to manipulate online players by using a female character and acting the part...not that I know from experience or anything.
For everyone else--I'm honestly surprised at how many people have rules or strong preferences against roleplaying a member of the opposite sex, even though they may be a minority overall. This is not meant as criticism, maybe just a sign that as an academic I operate in social circles that are very open-minded (at least in certain ways) and encourage looking at the world from a different angle--something that roleplaying a different gender can help one to do. But I've only played in one group that had other academic-types in it, and in that one, ironically, everyone was playing a character of his or her own gender. The other groups have all had "transvirtuals" in them, and as far as I know, no one felt uncomfortable about them.I had the same observations Peruhain. I honestly didn't expect so many people to have such strong preferences against playing crossgender. I suppose it's like one of those wake-up calls where I realize that not everyone drives a volvo and reads the New York Times...
But for the subject at hand, although I've gamed with three different transgendered players, I've never gamed with someone who had a cross-gendered character.
I'm also awfully curious about the split between PnP gaming and online/video gaming. I never really realized it, but I suppose that one of the reasons why I don't like online gaming is that I like my character to be the subject, not the object of the gameplay. If one's main reason for playing a cross gendered character in an online game is because "it's a lot easier to look at a female backside," that tells me that there's not a lot of identification that's happeining between the player and the character.
Just a couple of thoughts.
El Skootro
I to feel a little taken back by how strongly poeple feel about playing a different gender. Until this board I was unaware that people actually banned cross gender roleplaying.
I can see not wanting to play cross gender as a preference but banning it all together? But some DMs do not like 1/2 orc PCs (Personal bias I think.)
I must say I am one of those who play females in computer games (never played WOW or anyother online rpg), because I would much rather look at a womens back side than guys, but I woudl like to think my P&P female characters have more depth (of course one is named Abigail Applebottom).
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I generally ban characters playing opposite sex characters. I had allowed it in the past but what I discovered was that since males and females have different life experiences, they will always react differently. Since a male hasn't lived the life as a female his reaction to a problem will always be what he thinks a female will react like. He will never have a "natural" female reaction to a situation. And vice versa with females playing males.
The reason I ended up banning opposite gender roleplaying was because I found that men playing women were either ultra-feminists or sluts. And women playing men were either overly-macho or effeminate. Like someone said before, they were just caricatures of what real men and women are like.
I remember being in a game where the DM allowed a guy to play a female druid. He used her “one with nature” excuse to have her parade around naked everywhere she went. I guarantee you that if that had been a woman playing that druid, she would not have been naked all the time.
I have never felt the urge to play a female character. I feel that I am a good roleplayer but I really don’t think I could do a female character justice in the long term. Sure, as a DM I can play female NPCs but there is a huge difference between playing a female for a few encounters and playing a female every adventure.
I did make an exception to my no opposite gender rule recently when one of my friends rather surprisingly revealed he is a transgendered person. I allowed him (at the time) to change his character over to a female and we just pretended it was a her all along. It was hard at first to get the whole he vs. she pronoun thing down but we eventually got it. Unfortunately, the character still acted a bit more manly than an actual female-run character would have been. She’s gotten a lot better since then though.
I did make an exception to my no opposite gender rule recently when one of my friends rather surprisingly revealed he is a transgendered person. I allowed him (at the time) to change his character over to a female and we just pretended it was a her all along. It was hard at first to get the whole he vs. she pronoun thing down but we eventually got it. Unfortunately, the character still acted a bit more manly than an actual female-run character would have been. She’s gotten a lot better since then though.
At risk of sounding harsh, if "he" is a trangendered individual, then "he" is an "actual female." Plumbing which does not reflect an individual's identity is not license to disregard that identity.
I happen to know a girl who would play the druid you spoke of, as well. Running around naked isn't smart, of course, since you don't get much of an AC bonus at the low levels that way, but it's not entirely out of line. In a warm climate, the only functions of clothing are protection (which a druid above first level doesn't really need) and modesty. Modesty is a social expectation which a druid (being outside of, or perhaps even opposed to, society) may not feel obliged to follow.
As for the rest... these points have been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Personally, I'm like several of the earlier posters, surprised to hear that people ban such a basic thing as genders. To my mind, you may as well ban playing an age other than your own, or a profession in which you have no training.
...I happen to know a girl who would play the druid you spoke of, as well. Running around naked isn't smart, of course, since you don't get much of an AC bonus at the low levels that way, but it's not entirely out of line. In a warm climate, the only functions of clothing are protection (which a druid above first level doesn't really need) and modesty. Modesty is a social expectation which a druid (being outside of, or perhaps even opposed to, society) may not feel obliged to follow...
Oh, c'mon... that's just silly. There isn't a culture on the face of the planet that walks around "all of the time" completely naked. Even in cultures where partial nudity is the norm, total nudity isn't done. I'll buy the argument of being naked for a ritual here and there, perhaps on the order of the night-dancers of Eiliastraee. Even in various druid rituals, I could buy total nudity from time to time as part of an ancient rite. But all the time, as Moriarty said his player wanted? Not a chance.
And with druids who need to bolster their armor class during fights, there's no way as a DM that I could buy that he's going starkers because his character is "one with nature". Much less walking around a forest with pinecones, brambles, and other things that would suggest not only shoes as a good idea but also basic protection for one's skin.
Beyond social conventions (which are significant), solar energy is only good up to a point. Dry weather is only good to a point. And if there's a cold snap, or harsh rains, a simple shelter isn't enough on a daily basis. Most areas of wilderness are also not "empty", having lots of predators. Going naked is a fair way to become some beastie's lunch, at which point I guess they'd get their wish of being truly "one" with nature.
For me, it depends entirely on the character concept. If I think a male would be best for the character type I'm trying to emulate/convey, then I go male. But if I think a female best exemplifies it, then that's how I go.
Being a DM, though, really freed me up to portray all sorts of characters as a PC, because that's what DMs do as a matter of course.
Oh, c'mon... that's just silly. There isn't a culture on the face of the planet that walks around "all of the time" completely naked. Even in cultures where partial nudity is the norm, total nudity isn't done. I'll buy the argument of being naked for a ritual here and there, perhaps on the order of the night-dancers of Eiliastraee. Even in various druid rituals, I could buy total nudity from time to time as part of an ancient rite. But all the time, as Moriarty said his player wanted? Not a chance.
Who said anything about a culture of nudists? I was talking about going against the expectations of cultures. Certainly, a counterculture might spring into being -- sort of a "clothing Drizzt" who walks around naked smiting the clothed oppressors who claim to be the majority despite the fact that fully 95% of all characters of that sort were nudists -- but that's completely unnecessary to the point I was making and silly besides. Anyone can play a deviant.
there's no way as a DM that I could buy that he's going starkers because his character is "one with nature". Much less walking around a forest with pinecones, brambles, and other things that would suggest not only shoes as a good idea but also basic protection for one's skin.
At second level, Woodland Stride offers protection from nonmagical brambles, thorns, and undergrowth. At higher levels, Wild Shape renders it a nonissue.
Beyond social conventions (which are significant), solar energy is only good up to a point. Dry weather is only good to a point. And if there's a cold snap, or harsh rains, a simple shelter isn't enough on a daily basis. Most areas of wilderness are also not "empty", having lots of predators. Going naked is a fair way to become some beastie's lunch, at which point I guess they'd get their wish of being truly "one" with nature.
Weather is also a nonissue for a dedicated character; Endure Elements is a first level druid spell with a duration of 24 hours.
And all of this is completely irrelevant both to the thread and to my original point: the offending character could have been played by a female. I know at least one, most likely more, who would play such a character. For what it's worth, I wouldn't touch the concept with a standard issue ten foot pole, because it gives me back pain just to think about.
Yeah, whatever. People can come up with spells of various kinds to suggest that going around naked is technically ok and "possible". But the bottom line is that it's just plain stupid from a social (and combat) perspective. There's a point where you have to draw the line as a DM, and this would be one of those times for me.
Oh, c'mon... that's just silly. There isn't a culture on the face of the planet that walks around "all of the time" completely naked. Even in cultures where partial nudity is the norm, total nudity isn't done. I'll buy the argument of being naked for a ritual here and there, perhaps on the order of the night-dancers of Eiliastraee. Even in various druid rituals, I could buy total nudity from time to time as part of an ancient rite. But all the time, as Moriarty said his player wanted? Not a chance.
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A young American missionary women in Hana, Maui, during the early 19th century, Remarked in a letter, how a native man appearred at her front door with nothing on but a large straw hat. When asked where his trousers were at, the native man pulled his trousers and shirt from his hat and answered, "It began to rain, I did not want my clothes to get wet." Then he smiled.
It is this kind of account from where people get the phrase "NAKED SAVAGE". Granted people did not go naked "All of the time" But shedding your clothes and frolicking naked was much more widely practiced than you may think.
My ancestors, Hawaiian, swam and bathed naked regularly, because it was comfortable. The pictures you see of polynesian women with there breasts covered by cloth and polynesian men wearing loin clothes, is inaccurate, for the most part they were naked. If given the joice of wearing a loin cloth (and I have worn a loin cloth) and going naked I would go naked. Being naked was not reserved for rituals, in fact for most rituals my ancestors wore thier most fancy dudes. But for the most part most Hawaiians until the mid 19th century, had no problem going naked if it was more comfortable under the conditions and in the tropics where it rarley goes bellow 70 or above 90 that is often. Of course after generations of of puritan christian religious moral teaching, most Hawaiians are quite modest and rarely seen naked at the beach swimmming.
As "silly" as it may seem (and the missionnarries thought it silly), when the missionarries wrote about the "NAKED SAVAGE", thats what they literally ment.
I am actally planning to play a 65 year old woman/sorceror, while i am a male child.I am doing this because all the other players in our group are normal(sort of*)
*We have a half goblin bard with war bongo drums. (Akward!!)
On the naked thing, people shouldnt get stupid as I was once broswing through a 1st edition AD&D magazine as i came across a class caled a houri!! they were female seductress with kiss spells. while you think this is off thread, it gave bonus for seducing people while in the nude!!!
in my oipion (sp?) if peps are simply mature about things like this, no-one should take offence
At risk of sounding harsh, if "he" is a trangendered individual, then "he" is an "actual female." Plumbing which does not reflect an individual's identity is not license to disregard that identity...
I beg to differ.
Female, in the sense of sex, is a reference to biological function -- it is an organism capable of producing ova (eggs). In the gender sense, common usage still refers to such biological characteristics; it is primarily in the social sciences that gender takes on behavioral meaning.
Transgender, in contrast, is a reference to psychological outlook. It specifically refers to behavior "involving tendencies that diverge from the normative gender role," whether those roles are assigned by nature or culture.
Being transgendered does not assign sexual/gender identity -- it is, by definition, being at odds with such identity. That notwithstanding, I'm not implying (nor do I think) that transgendered people are required to conform to the identity that biology or culture impose.
I hope this isn't coming across as argumentative or inflammatory -- it's not meant that way.
Respectfully,
Jack
These days tabletop we tend to stick to our own gender as its easier and less hassle for people, as few in our group including myself, can pull off opposite gender very well.
I went through a stage when I was younger of playign female characters, but these days I prefer to do go for odd races instead!
Online games wise, I play the occasional female character just for variation in looks and outfit more than any other reason, i do tend to avoid heavily populated areas with any female "toons" i have, due to the amount of Cyb0r attempts and other crass comments you get being a female, and this seems to be in nearly every MMO i've played.
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Yeah, whatever. People can come up with spells of various kinds to suggest that going around naked is technically ok and "possible". But the bottom line is that it's just plain stupid from a social (and combat) perspective. There's a point where you have to draw the line as a DM, and this would be one of those times for me.
Social?!? I thought druids epitomized the anti-society type of character. They don't hang out at the pub they sit in trees communing with nature. Social behavior would/could be a foreign ideal for them. It sounds like you are using incorrect assumptions and misinformation to back an arbitrary dicision that you decided to use. I would say that druids, who are constantly testing themselves against nature would abhor using clothing and such as a crutch for survival. Clothing would serve to allow a druid to walk among the "civilized" folk without causing a great scene if the druid cared to go by societies conventions. A druid living in colder environs would be clothed in pelts of animals that were slain by their own hand, not a blanket and cold weather gear purchased at Adventurers -R- Us. Survival of the fittest. They were given the abilities needed to survive in the wilderness (endure elements, survival skill, wild. step, companion creature, shape change) in the game to reflect their nature of not being societal people. A well played druid PC will almost never be found willingly going into a large town/city, and would feel claustrophic within the confines of smaller towns. They would be complaining of the "stench of human" that permiates the area.
Drawing a line is fine but I think you were a bit quick on the draw.
FH
If your view of a druid is a solitary individual who shuns contact with civilization, that's asocial. People who are asocial do not generally join adventuring groups. The point of DnD is that it is a social game, where various characters are meant to interact socially. Personally, I do not know anyone who would play a druid as a solitary asocial. In the FR, druids can be loners but this is not usually so - they can be the hub of a community dedicated to balancing nature with the building of homes, planned gardening, and animal husbandry.
It's possible to use logic in justification of almost anything. But that doesn't mean I have to allow something stupid to happen as a DM, just because it's logically possible.
If someone wants to play a character who "goes naked all of the time" (and I'm *again* stressing that this person said all of the time, not just during rituals, swimming, or other understandable things), their goal goes beyond simple character personality factors. The game would drift into "you walk naked into a city, and the citizens are shocked" every time they do it. For combat situations, the character who shuns leather armor +4 because they "don't ever wear clothes" - well, they're endagering the survival of the entire party.
So use a little sense. I'm drawing a line because of the game disruption such an idiotic thing would cause.
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I still stand by my origial opinion that a female player would not have their druid run around naked all the time. Someone else mentioned they know women who "may" or "would probably" do it but does anyone have an actual ingame example of a female player whose regular, long term female character was naked all the time? And to be fair, has anyone had a female player play a male character naked all the time?
Concerning the transgendered person, though a person may feel they are a female in a male body, that doesn't mean that they actually are a female biologically or has lived the life of a female in our society. I still feel as if I was making an exception to my no cross-gender character rule because the transgendered person I knew was in the process of "coming out" and it was still (at the time) very much like a man playing a woman. As I stated, she's gotten a lot better (both in agme and in real life) since then and is a lot more believable as a woman now, but that wasn't the case at the time I allowed it.
Female, in the sense of sex, is a reference to biological function -- it is an organism capable of producing ova (eggs). In the gender sense, common usage still refers to such biological characteristics; it is primarily in the social sciences that gender takes on behavioral meaning.
This definition has two key flaws: most obviously, it leaves "genderless" those who (by injury, choice, or birth defect) are incapable of reproducing. More importantly, it is by no means common usage. There are a variety of physical traits by which we judge an individuals gender, and it is rare at best that even one them is the capacity to impregnate or become pregnant. For practical purposes, common usage of female equates roughly to "curvy with a higher pitched voice than most males" and common usage of male is approximately "boxy with a lower pitched voice than most females." This assumes that we're talking about people post-puberty, of course.
That said, I personally don't believe that common usage is sufficient reason to put pants on before leaving the house. Common usage would seem to me to imply that use of the genitive to indicate past tense ("should of" rather than "should have") is acceptable, rather than a valid reason to be thumped on the head with a textbook.
. . . That notwithstanding, I'm not implying (nor do I think) that transgendered people are required to conform to the identity that biology or culture impose.
That's probably the root of our disagreement, actually. You seem to be speaking of identity in an external manner -- something that can be given to or imposed upon someone. I view it as being a purely internal thing: a person's self-image and personality, what the individual believes that he is or should be. From my perspective, an identity can be (and all too often is) at odds with what you see looking in the mirror.
I hope this isn't coming across as argumentative or inflammatory -- it's not meant that way.
Respectfully,
Jack
No offense was taken. It's refreshing to hear a view that, even if I can't agree with it, is at least reasonable. My apologies if I come across sounding a bit touchy. It's not a personal matter, just an issue that for whatever reason I have a tendency toward getting irritable over.
Thats it, I'm gaming naked.
Lucky all you who don't game with me.
When a female druid character can't run arround naked in a game, well some one has to take a stand. Gosh, the image in my head of a female druid frolicking naked in a meadow, well it is just pleasant.
So until all female druids in a rpg are free to frolick naked (even in town w/ gawking townsfolk), I'm gaming naked.
So what's more ridicules a naked druid or a naked gamer?
Gosh, the image in my head of a female druid frolicking naked in a meadow, well it is just pleasant.
I'm with that guy. I haven't been able to get the image out of my head all day... :)
Er... I should probably clarify: I meant the image of the druid lady frolicking in the field.
Not the image of a naked Hawaiian dude on a couch with a handful of d20s. No offence to Sir Kai.
Welcome to Goldshire.
Well, this is an interesting turn of the thread, from gender to nudity.
Hmmmm! *Remembers going to grad school at UC Berkeley in the era of "the Naked Guy," and standing in Sproul Plaza having a conversation with a Chinese classmate while nudists are demonstrating a mere 100 feet away, both of us horribly embarrassed and doing our best to avoid noticing the spectacle going on around us.*
Well, I suppose fantasy gives us license to do all sorts of interesting things. Nonconformism that we wouldn't dream of expressing IRL, societies that are vastly different from any historically documented culture, cities a mile below the surface of the earth that live on fungi and human flesh, etc. Chacun a son gout! Certainly there are plenty of historically and ethnographically documented societies in which public nakedness (or at least immodesty, by contemporary American standards) was an option. A seven or eight decades back, string bikinis would have been shocking immodesty here in the U.S., while now they merely constitute a sort of borderline indecency that doesn't really shock anybody, even those who pretend moral outrage at our contemporary decadence. Certainly string bikinis are about as close to complete nudity as you can get without actually donning your birthday suit.
For most societies outside the tropics, though, nudity is a contextual thing. There are occasions that demand nudity, by ritual or practical necessity. When I was young and the Sierras weren't overrun by zillions of people, we never bothered with swimwear when we were hiking more than a mile from a paved road. Certain Celtic warriors are supposed to have gone into battle stark naked, if the Romans are to be believed. Lady Godiva rode through the town naked to make a point, and I suppose "the Naked Guy" went to class in the buff for a similar reason, although rumor has it that he developed serious mental illness problems (and is no longer with us), so maybe we shouldn't take him too seriously. Peasants in Japan and elsewhere bathed publicly in the buff, but that doesn't mean they didn't expect people to wear clothes on other occasions.
Anyhow, my vision of druids is not quite so primitivistic or animalistic that I would expect them not to wear clothing, ever. But if I DM'd for someone who insisted on this as an element of his/her character's identity, I'd look at how society might view that behavior in the various places visited. There are parts of my campaign world where "the Naked Druid" would get along OK, and others where he/she wouldn't last long at all without being subjected to the sorts of punishments society and the authorities reserve for public indecency. The stocks? Public flogging? Well, you get the idea.
Being male, I usually play P&P male characters. It's the default unless I feel that being female better suits the character concept. Ran away from home to escape an arranged marriage? Female. Whip-specializing rogue (the lasher prestige class)? Female. Generally I am ambivalent about gender; male is just the default and if someone says "Hey, we should have some women in this party" I might switch. But I would have had a hard time playing some characters as female, too: Armor-covered hammer-swinging dwarf? Male. Two-headed ogre with a 5 INT? Male.
I tend to throw a bit of LARPing into my around-the-table actions, and I admit that I have batted my eyelashes and tossed my hair at the gaming table while playing a female.
One male player I game with says he will never play a female. He claims it is because he knows he could never "properly" roleplay a female, but the rest of the group thinks his strong homophobic streak may have something to do with it. He was not impressed by me getting into female character, either.
Another player in one of the groups I game with is a gay male, and he almost always plays female characters. (And those females are almost always whiny-spoiled-princess types. But the player is that type, too.) Joining one game he was in, I played a female character: she was going to be a lesbian and would shamelessly hit on the gay guy's character. Only the DM knew about this plan. Unfortunately, the campaign dissolved before the plan came to fruition.
Regarding the naked/asocial druid issue: A DM I know forbids druid characters because in his mind, a true druid would be asocial and would have no reason to go adventuring. But yeah, a female druid frolicking naked in a meadow is a good concept. Well... depending on the druid's CHA.
Female, in the sense of sex, is a reference to biological function -- it is an organism capable of producing ova (eggs). In the gender sense, common usage still refers to such biological characteristics; it is primarily in the social sciences that gender takes on behavioral meaning.This definition has two key flaws: most obviously, it leaves "genderless" those who (by injury, choice, or birth defect) are incapable of reproducing. More importantly, it is by no means common usage. There are a variety of physical traits by which we judge an individuals gender, and it is rare at best that even one them is the capacity to impregnate or become pregnant. For practical purposes, common usage of female equates roughly to "curvy with a higher pitched voice than most males" and common usage of male is approximately "boxy with a lower pitched voice than most females." This assumes that we're talking about people post-puberty, of course.
Hum...i've taken several post grad gender studies classes in college and in a very very broad sense, Tatterdemalion's two line overview of gender theory is tough to argue. What i mean by that is that there are a multiplicity of factors that go into what it means to the self and society to be gendered <check> and when doctors in a delivery room have two check box options to go with: male or female...that is the "bilogy" of classifying s*x <check>. For medcial classification, I think what Tatter meant to say was something like: "...humans are typiclly classified as either male or female by the appearance of either a male or female *reproductive system.*" Of course, there are other possibilites at birth...either having both reproductive systems (hermaphroditic) or ambiguous s*x typing, but that's another can of worms.
Tatter's other comments regarding the trappings of social convention tied to gender are also true. One's relative sense of self will always exist in relation to how other's perceive that individual...it's part of being a sentient species in society.
Gender studies offers a whole host of papers and texts on exactly what is being discussed here. It is a relitively new field of study, but by that i mean the roots started in the the early 1900s and perhaps well before that, but Mina Loy's Feminist Manifesto is considered an early touchstone for the Feminist movement which led to gender studies.
In short, to wrap one's mind around how gender is socially constructed and (perhaps loosely) categorically attached to individuals based on gross anatomy; would take a significant amount of time and effort in studying canonized literature on the topic for all parties who would like to actively debate how gender is constructed.
As ever,
ACE