Dragon 346 Editorial is love.
Seriously. Read it. Anyone who already has, read it again.
After reading that, no more posts in this thread for me. The case is officially closed in my book.
Love to Eric, James, Mike, Nick, and the rest of the crew and contributors! Keep up the hard work that gives us good times with freinds and awesome memories for years to come!
I feel I consistantly need to defend my position. So let me clarify again.
Those sections are meant to be read aloud, and that is exactly what I do. When I read that section as intended, my players have no idea what I am saying. NONE of the students in my classes have any idea what those words are, and of the 10 teachers I surveyed ONE english teacher knew tureen, and ONE chemistry teacher knew proboscis. The rest thought I was making Marzipan and Tureen up. (I did not ask Ziggarat, or propensity because I concede they are much more common.)
When I read the section to my players I like them to invision the room and what is going on. I am a 'role playing' DM and am offended when I am called a 'hack and slash' DM. I like my players to feel like they are IN the room, to know what it looks like ect. Now maybe for you 'hack n slash' dms, the jar doesn't matter, but for US roleplaying DMs it does, and thats why I like my players to know its a jar. I like it when I tell my players "a waiter comes out with marzipan" for them to know that I mean food. Thats why I speak I use language that it is reasonable to assume my audience will understand.
You see what I am getting at? You are tellin me to use a dictionary, but the point is, that you are giving me a word that the majority of the population does not know. So using the dictionary isn't the solution, in truth I have to SUBSTITUTE the word. In truth, many of the people who have argued against me in this thread WILL HAVE TO substitute those words because their players will not know the words.
There are 2 real counter arguements:
1. A signifigant portion of the population would understand marzipan, tureen, proboscis and me and my vocabulary are to blame. This I just do not see as reality.
2. We are dungeon magazine and we do not cater to ordinary people but rather the upper crust of society. We prefer to use words that are not common in everyday english and if your players do not understand the words we choose, tough. They will either stick with the vague wording and win spelling bees because of it, or quit. Either way we are happy.
I am not saying do not be descriptive. Proboscis is for example a great word for a biologist, but it does NOT tell the average person what is going on. Why not be descriptive AND clear to most people and say "A stocky humanoid with an elongated snout that appears to be used as a feeding tube walks into the room."
Now I am going to read the editorial mentioned above. Thanks Dungeon for the great adventures.
Those sections are meant to be read aloud, and that is exactly what I do. When I read that section as intended, my players have no idea what I am saying. NONE of the students in my classes have any idea what those words are, and of the 10 teachers I surveyed ONE english teacher knew tureen, and ONE chemistry teacher knew proboscis. The rest thought I was making Marzipan and Tureen up. (I did not ask Ziggarat, or propensity because I concede they are much more common.)
Then perhaps you and the others shouldn't be teachers. Really - tureen, proboscis, and marzipan are not bizarre out-of-left-field words.
The Black bard said it as well as I could have. I appreciate having to run for the dictionary, it is more fun and much easier than my physics texts.
You see what I am getting at? You are tellin me to use a dictionary, but the point is, that you are giving me a word that the majority of the population does not know. So using the dictionary isn't the solution, in truth I have to SUBSTITUTE the word. In truth, many of the people who have argued against me in this thread WILL HAVE TO substitute those words because their players will not know the words.
Certainly I would not substitute a word in the description. I would, however, know what the word meant (even if it meant that I had to Google it during preparation) so that I could explain its definition should that come up. That said my experience with this is that I won't have to bother as one or another of my players will do the deed for me as many of them have been playing this game for some time.
Furthermore if the game is somewhat elitist that can't be changed by simply dumbing down the language. This ain't Yatzee - to really play you have to be attracted to a game whose basic rule set runs hundreds of pages and whose mechanics require one to eventually master a lot of skills beyond just expanded vocabulary to become proficient. Hence dumbing the language down won't change the audience - only dumbing the entire game down would manage that.
::putting on my fire retardant suit::
I'm a wordie... but I could have given you the definition for any of these words when I was 16, the latest. Although I didn't learn plinth until I was 20. It was a special day for me as I was writing a farcical satire of a sex help manual and the word plinth actually wound up in there somewhere.
That said, the game specific words would have sailed over my head as well any ol' day of the week.
I think it's fair to say that certain experiences expand your knowledge, and D&D is surely one of them. I think it's taught us all a thing or two about a thing or two.
I do not consider the hobby to be over written. I consider it well written. Perhaps more people ought to drop the dixie cup light reading and add some 'roids to their lexicon. Then maybe we'll prevent our language from descending to mere demanding grunts over the next few decades. I have no interest in seeing this game dumb down to appease the LCD.
You know what I'm sayin'?
No, I don't... try a descriptive adjective for crissakes!
I wouldn't be so severe here if I didn't find this thread's message so potentially dangerous. Nothing against any or all of the people involved in the discussion.
You know what I'm sayin'?
*grunts*
*grunts*You know what I'm sayin'?
*gugmuggabuggarug* (it's taking time to devolve... I'll be right there)
The exotic words have meaning within the campaign, I'm sure. For one, the rarity of marzipan in the campaign should reflect on the PCs during the banquet. It's supposed to be a rare and exotic meal, right? It's not just about jazzing up the writing. It's about creating a scene that is new to both PCs and players. I applaud such techniques used to create atmosphere in a module.
Really, I don't see how the OP can expect any sympathy. You read the module front to back before running it. Period. You prepare accordingly. If a word is new, look it up. To do otherwise is to choose ignorance, and that is never good.
And let's be honest. It's frustrating and embarassing showing a lack of preparation at the table. I know from experience. Just use a dictionary and edumacate yourself. It's the right choice.
Mmm. Interesting effort at a sequel, but I personally like the first episode better. It was much more enlightening.
Oh, and good old tough-guy-riding-his-motorcycle-to-his-job-as-a-don't-take-crap-from-nobody -security-guard-he-man-testosterone, legendary Aussie, Delglath, chimed in with the dummy Dungeon down vote. That was before The Jade pummeled him with the English language. Ahhh... good times. :)
I feel I consistantly need to defend my position. So let me clarify again.
*SNIP*
I'm afraid I can't stand by any longer...and I really hope that you don't take this the wrong way, eh.....but it's hard for me to reply to someone who wants to see language dumbed down and not sound snide in my response (it's not my intent...lord knows, the politeness in me is as hard-wired as it is for most Canucks).
I'm from Ontario, born and bred (although of Manitoba more recently, and Florida even more recently), and I spent most of my life growing up in small towns (pulp and paper, anyone? ;-)....And I have to say that as a teacher of Biology (in both Canada and the U.S.) that if out of all your teachers at your school that you quizzed, only ONE knew what proboscis meant (and none of the students) then the school system in Ontario has gone straight down the tubes since I left highschool there (must have happened after they axed Grade 13....). I mean, in the name of bloody Tommy Douglas, what the hell do you suppose those clouds of mosquitoes are trying to bite you with?!?!
And tureen?! For gosh sakes man, you (and apparently your colleagues) might think its obscure, but I can assure you that it's not really all that odd....Marzipan? Well, okay, if you don't have any relatives on the other side of the Atlantic, that one might be a little odd, but (to parrot what all the others are saying) there is NOTHING WRONG with using a dictionary if you have to. For those of us who grew up using 1E D&D, the DMG was a pig pen of obscure verbiage for budding sequipedalians to wallow in. I learned more words thanks to D&D than I did by reading Stephen King and Clive Barker when I should have been studying for my Grade 11 chemistry midterms ;-)
Part of being a teacher, not to mention a gamer, is to be constantly on the lookout for ways to expand your verbal/written skills, and that's usually done by learning and practicing new words and phrases. Don't be scared of them, man, they are your friends! :) :) Think about it, we regularly expect students to pick up new facts and ideas that they have never been exposed to and that they will frequently find boring and/or useless. What does it say when we set an example that says "I've never heard of that word, and neither have my friends....so I don't think that it should be used in your publication due to frustration levels....much like my students think I shouldn't test them on Mitosis and Meiosis because those topics involve big words that don't get used by the majority of the population...."
Does that analogy make our points clearer?
Really, man, being proud of a hobby that expands someone's vocabulary is not being elitist and catering to the upper crust of society...it means catering to an audience that likes to expand their horizons (as I had previously assumed most gamers did).
Anyhoo, those are my two Canuck (and ex-Ontarian) cents. Hope that didn't come across as being too egregiously rude or snide...but it's tough to watch someone essentially attempt to defend willfull and continued ignorance (not just because that person is one of my fellow countrymen, but also because they share my profession).
Cheers,
Colin (who will spell it haemoglobin, no matter how many U.S. students tell me I'm writing it down incorrectly ;-) ;-)
Mmm. Interesting effort at a sequel, but I personally like the first episode better. It was much more enlightening.
Oh, and good old tough-guy-riding-his-motorcycle-to-his-job-as-a-don't-take-crap-from-nobody -security-guard-he-man-testosterone, legendary Aussie, Delglath, chimed in with the dummy Dungeon down vote. That was before The Jade pummeled him with the English language. Ahhh... good times. :)
To be so vexingly mean spirited and fierily monosyllabic... someone had to throw a bucket of water. It was my day to be a Kansas farm girl.
THUM WHAAAAAAAAAAAA OVUH DA WAINBOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!
...but it's tough to watch someone essentially attempt to defend willfull and continued ignorance (not just because that person is one of my fellow countrymen, but also because they share my profession).
I feel the same way about the President here in the U.S. except I want to be snide and rude.
I think the poet Richard Hamilton of the Detroit Pistons said it best, "If it ain't rough, it ain't right."
GGG
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There are 2 real counter arguements:1. A signifigant portion of the population would understand marzipan, tureen, proboscis and me and my vocabulary are to blame. This I just do not see as reality.
2. We are dungeon magazine and we do not cater to ordinary people but rather the upper crust of society. We prefer to use words that are not common in everyday english and if your players do not understand the words we choose, tough. They will either...
Hi Hanexs,
You're coming under a lot of fire, I can see. And I think you're analysis of the two possibilities is spot on. You're clearly an intelligent person and an articulate one. Your arguments are clear and concise.
Nonetheless, I'm afraid it really is option 1. A significant portion of the population would understand marzipan, tureen, & proboscis.
Taking your call for an 8th grade level of education as the standard, here is my evidence: the New York Times (granted, probably not the favorite paper in Ontario) is generally considered to be at an 8th grade reading level.
A search on the NY Times web site reveals the following:
tureen - 309 articles
proboscis - 127 articles
propensity - 1,943 articles
marzipan - 488 articles
ziggurat - 162 articles
Now, I'm really not trying to be a snot, but I have to conclude what you're arguing for is really something below an 8th grade reading level.
I'd like to suggest that you designate one of your players, per game, as Dictionary Dude. When anyone doesn't know a word they can order Dictionary Dude to look it up. In short, try including the word-lookup into your game, but get the extra prep work off of your back. This way, everyone at the table can learn, but your free time (already at a premium) isn't impacted.
My answer is still "look it up" but maybe that's a more useful way to go about it for you.
I'd like to suggest that you designate one of your players, per game, as Dictionary Dude. When anyone doesn't know a word they can order Dictionary Dude to look it up. In short, try including the word-lookup into your game, but get the extra prep work off of your back. This way, everyone at the table can learn, but your free time (already at a premium) isn't impacted.
My answer is still "look it up" but maybe that's a more useful way to go about it for you.
That's actually a great idea, Lou.
When I was a young reader I'd usually keep a dictionary nearby. Sometimes the pace was too quick and the story too enthralling for me to pull up and away from. But I knew I'd come upon the word effulgent or incanescent again some other day. All in all, learning words in this manner offered me an immediate and artistic context in which to see them applied.
Contributor
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There are 2 real counter arguements:1. A signifigant portion of the population would understand marzipan, tureen, proboscis and me and my vocabulary are to blame. This I just do not see as reality.
2. We are dungeon magazine and we do not cater to ordinary people but rather the upper crust of society. We prefer to use words that are not common in everyday english and if your players do not understand the words we choose, tough. They will either...
Hi Hanexs,
You're coming under a lot of fire, I can see. And I think you're analysis of the two possibilities is spot on. You're clearly an intelligent person and an articulate one. Your arguments are clear and concise.
Nonetheless, I'm afraid it really is option 1. A significant portion of the population would understand marzipan, tureen, & proboscis.
Taking your call for an 8th grade level of education as the standard, here is my evidence: the New York Times (granted, probably not the favorite paper in Ontario) is generally considered to be at an 8th grade reading level.
A search on the NY Times web site reveals the following:
tureen - 309 articles
proboscis - 127 articles
propensity - 1,943 articles
marzipan - 488 articles
ziggurat - 162 articlesNow, I'm really not trying to be a snot, but I have to conclude what you're arguing for is really something below an 8th grade reading level.
I'd like to suggest that you designate one of your players, per game, as Dictionary Dude. When anyone doesn't know a word they can order Dictionary Dude to look it up. In short, try including the word-lookup into your game, but get the extra prep work off of your back. This way, everyone at the table can learn, but your free time (already at a premium) isn't impacted.
My answer is still "look it up" but maybe that's a more useful way to go about it for you.
Damn Lou, you beat me to the punch again!!!
It must have been because I was grading my 8th grader students' science tests. Not to say that everyone of them knows what marzipan is (and lucky them, cause I for one think its kind of gross), however most of my students are smart enough to ask"what's that?" when they hear a word they don't know. In such a situation its not really difficult to answer "its a sweet almond paste used to make candy and cake decorations".I think D&D is probably the only reason I wanted to develop a large vocabulary or learn math. There are no big words, just words you don't know. Once you've a context for them, they become important. I come up against this argument in science all the time. Some one will tell me its ridiculous to teah a fourth grader the word "sublimation" or something, but it so silly. I'd have to do twice as much work coming up with a bunch of so called little words to explain a concept that their eventually going to have to learn a word for anyway.
Oh and Hanexs, I resent the upper crust comment.
It sort of comes off as if you assume that only the upper crust of society is intelligent or educated.
I love playing D&D with my students afterschool or at lunch, and the Coney Island Housing Projects are far from upper crust.
I think words, as art and expression instead cater to the imagination; especially if we constanly use them to expand the way we think.
Sorry if I'm coming off a little harsh, but this one sort of hit home for me.
Whose this Lou guy? I don't like him one bit.
;-)
D&D is why I was almost never thrown in my early acting years by Shakespeare. The use of extensive language in D&D rocks. It makes the game educational as well as mysterious and fun. To explain better:
"I loves me dem big words."
:-)
"barking long-legged cat!" HA! You make-a me laugh!
Marzipan is a form of candy, commonly available in specialty candy stores (not chocolatiers, but full candy stores), I'm typically given it as a gift 1-2 times a year. If fact, in the candy section of most mid-range grocery stores (at least in NH, PA, and CA, where I've lived) you can typically find a few marzipan items.
We were browsing tureens at "Sur La Table" and other kitchen supply stores - it is a little more specialized, but not uncommon - my wife knew the definition off hand without even giving her context.
Proboscis is the correct word for the part of the mosquito that the creature uses to inject you with saliva and suck out your blood. Indeed, I have no idea what else to call it (nose is incorrect, tube-like appendage may work but is vague).
Ziggarat has been used in so many D&D adventures, I forgot when I learned what it meant.
James, thanks for keeping with the spirit of the game - the vocabulary usage has meant the difference from this being a board game and being a game that inspires the imagination. I'm not an English major (heavy use of a spell-checker for me) and I do credit D&D, Dragon, and Dungeon for widening my vocabulary.
What? learning things through games?? Absurd you say? Nay! That can be some of the best learning!
Of course, if I'm in the mood for less learning, I generally pre-read my adventure and pick one that is less descriptive.
Hi, I am replying to a simple question (there are a lot of other comments here that I should/will reply to.)
<B>"Do you think that publishers should similarly edit fiction and nonfiction books to a particular vocabulary level?"</B>
This is a very good question especially since I am a teacher right? Should we just keep dumbing down to the LCD until we are all speaking l33t sp34k? Well here is my answer.
There are "how to books". For example textbooks. If i order a computer science textbook and it is pretentious on the language level, I tell the publisher to screw himself and I want my 1000$ back. At work I am paying for a COMPUTER SCIENCE TEXTBOOK, and I do not want them trying to confuse my students with words that they do not know. This isn't an english class, and I know that english teachers aren't teaching my students algorithms on the side. If I buy a how to install a toilet book (I use the library all the time for my home maintenance) it better be DUMBED DOWN. I don't want to use a dictionary, please show me how to install the toilet as easily as possible. If they can't do that I return the textbook. As you can see i have gotten in lots of arguments with Chapters while I return 60 textbooks.
On the other hand, I love Shakespeare, sometimes I feel I am the only person in the world who loves it (so many teachers argue to get rid of it). I remember the satisfaction that came when I finally understood a passage. I feel an artist has his own descision to make with respect to vocabulary. Sure some words might confuse a reader, but on the other hand, that word might be PERFECT for what the author is trying to portray, and damn the reader if he doesn't like it.
But I guess I don't see Dungeon as art. I see my campaign as art after all I am the one presenting it to my players. As far as they know, I am the original creator and believe me I modify the adventures enough for this to be true. I see Dungeon as a tool, much like a generator, it helps me create my art. I subscribe to it because I want it to make my DM'ing job easier, not because I want to increase my vocabulary. (As a side joke, you should try that on your next advertisement, in big letters "SUBSCRIBE TO DUNGEON 39.99, INCREASE YOUR VOCABULARY". Im sure that will get a great response.)
Someone else said the words are popular and understood by a signifigant portion of the population, and that it is just me/myplayers/the people I surveyed... Fine that at least is an answer I can accept. Don't tell me that we intentionally include uncommon words so that you can experience the joys of a dictionary. I didn't know that when I subscribed.
The main purpose of D&D is not to build volcabulary. That's just a potential fringe benefit.
Dungeon writing is art. Though there is a technical aspect, this is partitioned fiction whose parts are designed to be jumbled around in any order and still make perfect sense. It needs to impress in the way good fiction impresses. To pick up most any book is to often encounter a word or two you did not know previously. I guess each of us decides what to do when encountering a word we don't know. I learn it and move on without complaint unless I deem the author to be throwing out four syllable words just to show us all how bright he/she is. It's not the word, it's how you use it that counts.
The other day a man told me, "The soda I had dranken spilled." Then, from my reaction, "What? That's not a word?"
I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.
It's late here. I'll tune back in tomorrow.
I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.
So Jade, you would say that Dungeons vocabulary needs to increased? Or, that the words in a typical Dungeon adventure need to be more obscure? I mean simpler is the wrong direction so then even more complicated words would be the right direction?
I see it this way: There are specific terms (e.g. proboscis) which are used to denominate certain things or circumstances. Languange is basically a convention to name things so that every user of this language has a commom basis, I think.
It would be very strange to me if you use the explanation of this terms every time you could use the term instead. It would in fact decrease the readability (does this word exist?) of texts. Imagine a text where every time "a long appendage used to suck blood attached to the head" would appear instead of "proboscis". If the words in question are foreign words or loan words, it surely can make reading and understanding more diffcult initially, but saves time and space in the long run. Sometimes, there is no other precise term to use for a given object or circumstance, so you have to make do with terms that may be unfamiliar.
OTOH, I surely object to the use of foreign words just for the sake of it, or, as some posters here suggested, to make the writer (or speaker) appear more educated or intelligent - if there is a viable alternative to such words. I once experienced an art professor whose every second word was a foreign or loan word, when there were definitely other words that he could have used - his lecture was horrible to follow.
So, as a conclusion, I´d say use the specific terms where necessary and appropriate, but watch out for needlessly complicated texts. The line between the two is narrow, and every reader draws it differently.
Stefan
(and you don´t want to know how many words I had to look up in an online dictionary while writing this text... )
Also, the scenes described in Dungeon call for exotic vocabulary because they describe exotic settings. Common english describes common items and events. If we want to describe a feast, we need to pull out the old feasting words, such as Tureen, or Marzipan. It is because these words describe things outside our everyday experience that they are both obscure and useful to fantasy.
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I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.So Jade, you would say that Dungeons vocabulary needs to increased? Or, that the words in a typical Dungeon adventure need to be more obscure? I mean simpler is the wrong direction so then even more complicated words would be the right direction?
Hanexs, I think the message coming through is that it isn't complicated. I am befuddled (that's "confused") why you think it is bad to have mildly obscure words - it is part of fantasy, especially in the medieval aspect, and part of the game (Gygax loved this stuff - "glamour" as an illusion spell, for example). As above, the use of these words adds a specific context that the plain old word doesn't. Does it make it great literature? Probably not (Lovecraft popularised "eldritch", and while I love his stories his style is certainly too florid) but Dungeon isn't primarily read for the quality of the writing.
I am wondering if you read books and stuff. You are entitled to your tastes, but it seems that you want to defend ignorance as a good thing. Good vocabulary is a handy tool. Complaining about it being "complicated" just seems like an unwillingness to improve yourself.
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There are "how to books". For example textbooks. If i order a computer science textbook and it is pretentious on the language level, I tell the publisher to screw himself and I want my 1000$ back. At work I am paying for a COMPUTER SCIENCE TEXTBOOK, and I do not want them trying to confuse my students with words that they do not know. This isn't an english class, and I know that english teachers aren't teaching my students algorithms on the side. If I buy a how to install a toilet book (I use the library all the time for my home maintenance) it better be DUMBED DOWN. I don't want to use a dictionary, please show me how to install the toilet as easily as possible. If they can't do that I return the textbook. As you can see i have gotten in lots of arguments with Chapters while I return 60 textbooks.
On the other hand, I love Shakespeare, sometimes I feel I am the only person in the world who loves it (so many teachers argue to get rid of it). I remember the satisfaction that came when I finally understood a passage. I feel an artist has his own descision to make with respect to vocabulary. Sure some words might confuse a reader, but on the other hand, that word might be PERFECT for what the author is trying to portray, and damn the reader if he doesn't like it.
But I guess I don't see Dungeon as art. I see my campaign as art after all I am the one presenting it to my players. As far as they know, I am the original creator and believe me I modify the adventures enough for this to be true. I see Dungeon as a tool, much like a generator, it helps me create my art.
I take your point to some extent, but I think that looking at Dungeon as a "scenarios manual" is missing the point on two levels. Firstly, D&D is creative, not a "plug socket A to widget B, twist and hold together firmly for 12.75 seconds" sort of affair. There needs to be description, the encouragement of atmosphere, emotion..... The amount of that you need depends on your style of gaming, of course, but the decriptions would be very arid if they are, "You see three guys. They attack you." It would look terrible in print.
Secondly, language used in the sort of publications you describe is the appropriate language for the medium - blunt, unflowery and to the point. The language used in Dungeon is the appropriate language for that medium - a creative endeavour. I wouldn't want a computer manual with Latin non sequiturs, but I wouldn't want Dungeon without some sort of evocative decriptive text. The author is trying to describe what he is envisaging, and the "funny" words may be the appropriate ones in terms of tone and context.
Here's a good recipe for marzipan; it is a popular dessert item in continental Europe, but I've never seen it here in the US. Which is a shame, 'cause it is DELICIOUS. Yum!
Seriously?
The USA (and Canada) does not stock Marzipan?Wow! I've never felt so priviledged to live in the UK before...
What about christmas cakes over there? In the UK we have big fruit cakes, with Marzipan on the top, and then covered in a dense layer of icing. Do you not have this either? Or is there a substitute when it comes to the Marzipan layer? Intrigued UK readers want to know...
of the 10 teachers I surveyed ONE english teacher knew tureen, and ONE chemistry teacher knew proboscis. The rest thought I was making Marzipan and Tureen up.
These statements make me want to weep.
Edit to ask: how many COOKs did you ask? I bet they'd know what 'tureen' and 'marzipan' meant. And surely, when describing a meal, it is entirely appropriate to use specialist cookery terms?
D&D and fantasy literature taught me a great many words I otherwise would not know. That wealth has proven a great boon, despite the occasional frustrations caused by my assumption that everyone would know a particular word. The idea that Dungeon should not use specialised words where those words are entirely appropriate is one I cannot support.
If Dragon or Dungeon ever reach a point where they will not use words such as tureen, marzipan, proboscis or ziggurat, I will probably end my subscription. I can't imagine the resulting magazine would entertain me sufficiently.
It seems really a strange debate: gamers usually like to highlight why gaming is a good hobby (e.g. "it develops strategic thinking) and you often find the argument "it gave me access to a whole new range of vocabulary and concepts" among those named. So I am surprised to see a native-speaker complain about the level of the language used by Dungeon.
When I as in high-school in Belgium, we little French-speaking guys would read most of our gaming books in English (we were playing Rolemaster and the French translation was poor and most books were not covered).
My D&D group in Berlin (where I now live) has books in German and English, but I think mostly in English. I don't think that we ever really felt much challenged by the language, but that's maybe because we accept the fact that it's not our mother tongue and we'll have to look up words once in a while (last session, we had to look up "cur", as it was a word used by Penkus to qualify Vanthus Vanderboren on a note we found).
I find words like tureen, marzipan or propensity perfectly acceptable. It IS part of the fun.
Bocklin
PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...
Dude, I have been reading for pleasure for 20 years now, I've gone through the core books cover to cover, and I still don't always know what a ranseur is.
My point being, the language in Dungeon isn't much more advanced than the language in the Player's Handbook. If some words in the descriptions throw you and/or the players from time to time, hey, happens to everybody, skip/replace it, move on, and look it up later if you're so inclined; but I think asking new creative material to be less well-written than the "textbook" itself is a bit excessive.
Having said that, I should have been in bed a long time ago. *snore*
Just to add an interesting little bit to this conversation...
I was talking to my wife about this thread. The word "proboscis" caught the attention of my 6 year old daughter. She asked what it was. We told her a long nose on bugs. We asked her an hour later what a proboscis was, and she remembered.
I thought it was cool she asked. I think it's awesome she remembered.
PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.
Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
My parents and I both credit D&D for improving my reading, spelling, writing, and vocabulary skills in middle and high school; I was typically several grades ahead of most of my peers, and I was probably the only 13-year old who liked to use "myriad" and "plethora" in his essays.
That said, while I know what tureen, marzipan, ziggurat, and proboscis means, I still have to look up some words that appear in Dungeon, especially architectural terms (I now know what "narthex" means!). Architectural terms are a good example of why I think Dungeon's usage of an expanded vocabulary is a good thing. One, many of these terms have a very precise meanings (see narthex) that saves on word count (always a boon to writers and editors); two, this kind of expanded usage spices up the writing (really, think of how boring and long the writing would be if a room was described the same way every time with very common words); and three, sometimes the less common words are just cooler. Example: Fane vs. Temple/Church.
PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...They truly live a benighted life across the Atlantic.Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
Em... should I recognize these (as a fellow european:-)) ?
Oh, and: I love marzipan. Do you know marzipan breads ? Its a chrismas sweet: A small piece of marzipan, formed like a miniature loaf of bread and completely encased in bittersweet chocolate. Normally, they have 100 gram of pure sweetness, but they are sold up three times that size. See here. Oh, and marzipan potatoes - small balls of marzipan covered in chocolate dust.
:-)
Stefan
I would, however, know what the word meant (even if it meant that I had to Google it during preparation) so that I could explain its definition should that come up.
D&D keeps pushing our vocabulary. Playing D&D with a bunch of PhD biologists and chemists, our DM was a very talented and odd storyteller who wove vivid tales of trips to the moon and extraplanar invasions. Of course, not every session was brilliant. During one of the more mundane episodes in which we were exploring some or another abandoned ruin, we came across an old storeroom. After a long description of a packed storeroom of old junk/treasures, the DM paused. It was late, we were sleepy, and we were a little bored. No one was inspired to act, and so no one spoke.
Finally, our notekeeper looked up from his list of storeroom contents - which probably included crowns, machinery, and fantastic magical devices - and uttered: "Plinth? What the hell is a plinth?" None of us knew (DM excepted). Years later, the details of the adventure of the day have slipped from my mind, but the subsequent jokes about plinths are still vivid and wonderful memories.
I'd like to suggest that you designate one of your players, per game, as Dictionary Dude. When anyone doesn't know a word they can order Dictionary Dude to look it up.
I have a very good friend - a high school physics teacher - who actively seeks a reason to open the OED dictionary on a daily basis. Not just on game days, but every day.
Yes, he's a geek. We all are. He's also a very eloquent geek.
The USA (and Canada) does not stock Marzipan?
Wow! I've never felt so priviledged to live in the UK before...What about christmas cakes over there? In the UK we have big fruit cakes, with Marzipan on the top, and then covered in a dense layer of icing. Do you not have this either? Or is there a substitute when it comes to the Marzipan layer? Intrigued UK readers want to know...
I've lived in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maryland and Newfoundland, and I only had my first taste of marzipan this last Christmas - 37 years into life. As I'm not really a dessert person, and I don't care for fruit cake, I can't say that I enjoyed the concoction as a whole. I have to hope that your fruit cakes are better than the logs in my part of the US.
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There are "how to books". For example textbooks. If i order a computer science textbook and it is pretentious on the language level, I tell the publisher to screw himself and I want my 1000$ back. At work I am paying for a COMPUTER SCIENCE TEXTBOOK, and I do not want them trying to confuse my students with words that they do not know.
OK, I'm a computer programmer. Oracle stuff, to be specific. So I can latch onto this Comp. Sci. textbook thing, and maybe talk about some stuff you know about that might make the point.
Do your students know what a relational database is? Do they know what an outer join is? Do they know what a byte is? How about a gigibyte? What about a bit? Do they know how fast a millisecond is?
I'm going to bet that those words appear in your computer science textbook. What do you do when you have students who don't know what those words mean? I'm quite certain the answer is that you teach them the meaning of the word - either through the context, by looking it up in the glossary at the end of the book, or by simply explaining it to them.
In the context of a computer science textbook, none of those words are wacky and out of place. Yet it's also reasonable to assume that somebody first tackling the subject of computers won't know what a byte is. Now, if I'm writing a computer science textbook, I have two options. I can use the word byte, or I could say, "a combination of eight bits used to represent finite pieces of data such as a number or a letter." But why should I use that long phrase over and over when there's already a word in the English language that exactly conveys what I mean?
Hopefully that makes sense. Now let's put that in the context of the words in the adventure.
If I'm writing an article/adventure for Dragon or Dungeon - when I have a very tight word count with which to work - should I say "tureen" or "a large, deep covered dish for serving soup?"
Should I say "marzipan" or should I say "a sweet confection made from almond paste?"
The example of the word "byte" and the words "tureen" and "marzipan" are exactly the same.
Do you think they don't have "toad in the hole" or "spotted dicks" either???
Bocklin
Em... should I recognize these (as a fellow european:-)) ?
I recognize those, but haven't tried (they are English dishes).
Indeed I think most Europeans know word marzipan because it is common here but apparently not so across the Atlantic. I remember one episode of Gilmore Girls where Emily and Richard did bring marzipan with them from Switzerland or somewhere, which felt a bit strange..."they don't have marzipan in US?"
Some specialty words like tureen I have never come across, but then again English is not my mother tongue...and when I started to read frst gaming material in English when I was, what, 15?, my English grade did take a definite boost when I could use words like fatigue, reputation or hookah with ease...but still, English vocabulary can be most frustrating. Like coming across some texts where the writer has apparently got the urge to use whole dictionary in one page: reading things like that is as enjoyable as hitting your head on the wall.
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I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.So Jade, you would say that Dungeons vocabulary needs to increased? Or, that the words in a typical Dungeon adventure need to be more obscure? I mean simpler is the wrong direction so then even more complicated words would be the right direction?
You assume my point is that I'm saying Dungeon's word usage needs to become more obscure? Are you serious? I refuse to believe that's where your reading comprehension is at. I think you're twisting the reality of my argument against me, assigning values to my argument that you know I never intended because it's easier to argue that way. It's also an ideal way to ensure never finding common ground.
I will spell this out for you. Simpler isn't the wrong direction. Your attitude towards learning the language is the wrong direction. It's quite a popular attitude these days and the long term effects are storied throughout history. When the intellectual class collapses, so follows the society in short order.
To your points that you suggested were my points I would say neither. I'd say let the writers do what they do and vote with your wallet if you don't like it. You can write your own adventures, right? You don't need Dungeon. Your opinion seems to be clearly in the minority, and I sympathize with you there because that's never fun. So I'm not worried for the game, I'm worried for a group of kids in Canada.
I hope you know you single handedly ruined my Marzipan Golem submission. It's in the mail already. Thanks a heap.
It's hard to believe I'm having to say this to someone responsible for teaching children but my point, or a point I'd like to make anyway, is this: if D&D offers the chance to expand one's capacities in any manner, especially in children who could always benefit from the best education possible, it's a bleepin' miracle product.
I learned how to type as fast as most people can fake fast typing by playing those old Infocom games like Zork. "kill troll with sword. kill troll with sword. kill troll with lamp. kill troll with sword. go nw." We learn easiest by that which turns us on. D&D is going to teach you so much if it's what revs your engine. The 1st edition xp calculations are what taught me do simple math at light speed. It's so silly, when you think about it, but it is the absolute truth. Studying the history and royalties of Oerth make it so easy to transition over to learning about real histories and royal bloodlines. Most people don't want to do that either, do they? LCD. I never think of D&D as having been intended for people who don't want to change their stars.
Many DMs will be watching the History or Discovery channel and then a segment about the fairy chimneys in Cappadocia comes on and we all scurry to our word processors inspired to create for our players and/or readers. Know what just happened? We learned something quite specific about a place in Turkey and it didn't even feel like a school lesson. What a big blue marble we live on with its million score secrets to uncover and explore. Ah, wonderment.
Anyone intelligent enough to grasp the math of this game and understand the big picture along with all of its interrelated parts has already demonstrated an intellectual acumen that in my opinion should translate well to quik werd lernin'. Most D&D players, the ones I love and the ones I'm not so fond of, take a certain pride in being smarter than the average ranger. That's far from upper crust... it's a desire to learn and know more.
I'll end this reply in the manner in which you ended yours. Overstatement. I don't ever want to read a Dungeon that utilizes Little Rascals spelling and see James Jacobs signing each monthly doodle of a critter (his future editorials) with his own bloody pawprint. Or worse, you crack the cover of Dungeon #400 and there are no pages, just techno blasting out whereupon everyone around you in the store jams a pacifier into their mouthes and starts hopping in place.
PS: no marzipan in the US? Boy that should be a tough life...
But Marzipan is Homestarrunner's broom-like girlfriend.
... a great post.
WOW. You just put it, well, not quite in a nutshell, as it was too long for that, but you put it so well that I consider this the final word on this topic.
Stefan
hanexs, would you do something for me? Go back to the same teachers you surveyed previously, and ask them if they know the meaning of the following words:
melee
grapple
thaumaturgy
eldritch
kukri
falchion
Out of those words, I think only "thaumaturgy" qualifies as a "big" word, but the others are certainly obscure outside of our wonderful game. How did you learn the meaning of these words the first time you saw them? Well, if I had to guess, I'd say you probably guessed their meaning based on context - which includes the pictures of the kukri and falchion in the PHB.
So, see how many of those words your teacher friends know. My guess, you'll find one or two teachers who know one or two of those words.
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I am concerned about the way things seem to be going. Your suggestion that D&D needed a turnaround in regard to volcabulary usage just seemed to me to be the exact wrong direction.So Jade, you would say that Dungeons vocabulary needs to increased? Or, that the words in a typical Dungeon adventure need to be more obscure? I mean simpler is the wrong direction so then even more complicated words would be the right direction?
Actually, I doubt anyone writing a dungeon adventure is thinking in tersm of simpler or more obscure. The authors are thinking that this word, here, strikes exactly the right subtlety of tone. It's exactly the right word.
If that turns out to be a word you don't know, which in turn makes you angry -- then maybe Dungeon really isn't for you and a less 'arty' adventure mag would be the way to go.
If you want your adventures to be less partitioned fiction and more like a toilet installation manual...well, I'm not sure we want the same magazine.
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Here's a good recipe for marzipan; it is a popular dessert item in continental Europe, but I've never seen it here in the US. Which is a shame, 'cause it is DELICIOUS. Yum!Seriously?
The USA (and Canada) does not stock Marzipan?
Wow! I've never felt so priviledged to live in the UK before...What about christmas cakes over there? In the UK we have big fruit cakes, with Marzipan on the top, and then covered in a dense layer of icing. Do you not have this either? Or is there a substitute when it comes to the Marzipan layer? Intrigued UK readers want to know...
Sorry, he's just mistaken. Marzipan can be found all over the US.