According to MM1:
"Zombies are not pleasent to look upon. Drawn from their graves, half decayed and partially consumed by worms their tattered remains"... and so on.
They always presume to have been buried (and apparently for a long time) and thus raised from the grave.
Here´s the question: As zombies are created from the dead, how do they look if created from the recently slain.
Example: My wizard-character slays 3 opponents and the battle is won. Within let´s say 10 rounds the wizard casts Animate Zombie upon the slain. They rise as zombies, this is obvious.
But how do they look? I presume they look like they just died and not as if raised from the grave (decayed, maggots etc.)
Next comes the question of decay. How far will these zombies decay in let´s say (game time) a year? Will they reach a specific point of decay and not beyond or will they not decay at all, thus remaining in the stage they were when made zombies? If they decay to a specific point, what is that point? If a corpse is beyond that point, can it only be made as a skeleton?
In Animate Skeleton it is said "if a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones."
What about an army of zombies. If created within a long period of time (let´s say 15 years in game time) will the first ones created have become mere skeletons?
If not, there is some measure of preservation in Animate Zombie.
Thus, a recently killed and consequently animated zombie will forever remain as it was when created and will not show any signs of decay ever.
Logical?
I think this is one of those questions left to the discression of the artist (DM).
Otherwise, manner of death, weather, humidity, type of clothing, condition of clothing size of corpse, density of animal etc. are all going to be factors requiring consideration - seems a pretty inconsequential thing to fuss about.
If its important to you - make the table yourself and post it for review.
If you want stuff to aid in your description - watch a few zombie movies - and use them as inspiration.
The matter came up as my necromancer animated it´s victim (a priestess) and since there is no "official" rule in the book, me and the DM were just wondering...
Now it´s been (game time) ~4 weeks and as the necromancer keeps the zombie with him 24-7 (in cities also) there was the question of how noticable the party is...
Maybe in this case the deity of the priestess preserves her body.
Fyi, we´re not new to gaming, just wondered is there an official rule-of-the-thumb or how other GM´s are taking this into consideration.
Thats also going to be a DM specific answer - if the world you game in is rich with necromancers (ugh) perhaps undead attendants are not that usual - I would think that even if the zombie was odor free the way it moved would be pretty obvious - any distance close enough to see facial expressions.
But you could dress it up with perfumes, oils, make-up, spells, disguises, etc. Again thats going to require the DMs judgement.
There might be acceptenace for such servants, or fear that prevents action, indignation and persecution, could very by town.
In general though I think it would be pretty blantant and undead (of any sort VERY unwelcome) - othherwise you lay the foundation for an industry of death - mining, farming, mounts, porters - thats a REAL dark world.
Hm... well, I'd rule that when the zombie is healed through negative energy, the area "wounded" becomes shriveled and grotesque. For example, the player heals his zombies arm with a inflict light wounds. The wound is healed with the negative energy, but the area around the wound becomes shriveled and dessicated.
Once the zombie is obviously not human, I'd definately go for heavy robes and a mask. This makes it look like you have an entourage of holy followers, instead of a cadre of undead.
Also, slightly off topic, I'd attempt to create a spell which applies one of the templates from Libris Mortis to the zombie you target.
The world is largely the DM´s own design, combining elements from D&D, FR and others.
The campaign in progress is an "evil" one, among the PC´s my drow ranger/necromancer and it´s slave from the underdark, a half-vampire.
Basically, we decide to play it a bit different this time and try an "evil" campaign and see how it goes in a "good" world.
Hm... well, I'd rule that when the zombie is healed through negative energy, the area "wounded" becomes shriveled and grotesque. For example, the player heals his zombies arm with a inflict light wounds. The wound is healed with the negative energy, but the area around the wound becomes shriveled and dessicated.
Once the zombie is obviously not human, I'd definately go for heavy robes and a mask. This makes it look like you have an entourage of holy followers, instead of a cadre of undead.
Also, slightly off topic, I'd attempt to create a spell which applies one of the templates from Libris Mortis to the zombie you target.
Thats a good point made about negative energy healing.
I´m also using Encyclopaedia Arcane Necromancy and the feats and spells listed in it.
Lol; I remember playing a character in a party that had no ability to raise dead; but I could animate corpse; so after a party member fell in battle; I cleaned him up; and used my disguise abilities to apply make up and stuff to make him look more or less normal; cast the old preserve spell on him to keep him from rotting and every now then a freshen cantrip; that way we didnt have to carry our gear; he more or less became our pack mule until we could get a raise dead for him; with the current feats from Libre Mortis; you should be able to do a good job; even give them intelligence and lots of power ups; hehe better living through death :)I dont have all the 3.5 spells memorized yet, but there are probably enough repair and clean/preserve type magics to do a good job making a decent looking or even attractive zombie. I would think the healing and shriveling suggested for neg energy heals could be overcome by removing the taint as suggested in the UA as neg energy is evil and zombies are typically nuetral.
I dont have all the 3.5 spells memorized yet, but there are probably enough repair and clean/preserve type magics to do a good job making a decent looking or even attractive zombie.
Hmmm. Keeps the priestess' body with him 24/7 you say....
So that's the way they are in that party...
GGG
Ewww... I don't even want to really think about that. There are some things that are just "wrong," no matter what.
There is a spell which is preserving a corpse in its current state, so I´d say the Zombie rots just like the pile of dead meat she is if you don´t take countermeasures.
So, over time, a Zombie turns into an animated Skeleton. I can´t really approximate how long it takes for all the flesh to rot from the bones. Any forensic expert here ?
Stefan
There is a spell which is preserving a corpse in its current state
Stefan
What spell?
Did I miss it in PH?
There is a spell which is preserving a corpse in its current state
StefanWhat spell?
Did I miss it in PH?
No, its not in the core rules. I believe it is somewhere in the FR books, but I can´t remember which one it was. Sorry, but I will keep on looking.
Stefan
I second the gentle repose idea. I seem to remember in some old 2nd edition stuff an actual timeline for how long a zombie took to "decay" into a skeleton.
Regarding decomposition, my wife has a few notes on the process (Crim Major, Forensic Minor): WARNING, DESCRIPTIONS ARE AS CLINICAL AND NON-OFFENSIVE AS POSSIBLE, BUT WERE STILL TALKING ABOUT THE PROCESS OF BODILY DECAY HERE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
Stage 1: Initial Decay: 0-3 days. Digestive juices and bacteria begin working upon the digestive organs themselves. Unless protected, insects lay eggs in wounds and orifices.
Stage 2: Putrefecation: 4-10 days. Gas from bacterial action (methane, hydrogen sulfide, cadaverine, and putrescine) creates pressure that bloats the body and further excites both bacteria and insects. Larval insects tunnel through tissues, which acellerates the spread of bacteria through liquified bodily fluids being pushed by the gaseous presssure. (This is the nasty stage of decay, where the corpse smells and looks quite terrible.)
Stage 3: Black Putrefecation: 11-20 days. Body collapses as fluids escape, smell of decay is very strong at this point. Insects compromise majority of "decay factor" at this point, although bacteria will complete the process eventually if no insects are present. Multiple generations of maggot-type creatures, some of which reach adult forms during this stage. Flies actually less likely to be atraccted to the corpse at this point, but beetles and wasps still prevalent. (A mobile zombie might not be so bad, as it could be moved from the location where its fluids escape, and otherwise cleaned. This could be considered the last stage at which a corpse could be mechanically considered a Zombie if animated)
Stage 4: Butyric Fermentation: 20-50 days. Body dries out, emanates a cheezy odor due to butyric acid. Majority of tissue is already gone, beetles work on remaining tougher flesh; skin, ligaments, etc. Surface of body in contact with ground becomes covered in mold as fermentation occurs. (Unlikely for a mobile zombie to mold, but still possible.)
Stage 5: Dry Decay: 50-365 days. The corpse is little more than skin remanents, hair, and bones. Decay continues very slowly, as moths and bacteria eat away the hair and skin remanents. In humans, the lack of hair makes this stage shorter: 50-75 days. (The corpse most certainly has no use as a zombie, and could only be raised as a skeleton. However, it should also be reasonably clean and inoffensive, at least on a smell and cleanliness level. Moral and ethical levels are another story.)
Some other important data that might be useful:
Blood will follow gravity after death, and pool in the lowest region of the body. A zombie animated fresh after death is going to have rather large feet that make very disturbing noises as it walks and leaves... unpleasant footprints.
If deprived of oxygen:
Brain cells begin dying in three minutes.
Muscle cells live on for several hours.
Bone and skin cells live on for several days. (Eeeeww. :P)
It takes roughly 12 hours for a body to cool to the touch, and 24 to cool to the core.
Rigor mortis commences roughly 3 hours after death, reaces its peak in 12 hours, and persists until about 72 hours after death.
Adipocere, or grave wax, occurs when a corpse is not readily acessible to insects. Breakdowns of fatty tissue into amino acids and soaps create a curmbly, waxy substance (adipocere) that will actually protect the body from further decay to a small degree. It begins forming about a month after death, and has been reported on 100 year old exhumations. (The fragile nature of grave wax would make its effects useless on an animate, mobile corpse.)
Hope this helps answer some of your questions. For all necromancers out there, get out your soapbuckets, because unless your spamming gentle repose, or using skeletons, those zombies start reeking really fast!!
This helps, thanks Black Bard.
I´d also appreciate if you or someone was to find the 2nd ed. timeline. I´d settle for the book´s name (if there is no way to scan an article).
I found the spell I had in mind, Black Bard´s hint to Gentle Repose (the spells name) did the trick. It is in the 3.5 PH (damn, my memory isn´t getting any better these days...)
Gentle Repose, Cleric 2/SorWiz 3. It "...preserve(s) the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay.", with a duration of one day per level. Not a permanent solution, but a start.
A spell to prevent decay permanently should be cleric level 4 or 5, and wizard one level higher, IMHO.
Stefan
I found the spell I had in mind, Black Bard´s hint to Gentle Repose (the spells name) did the trick. It is in the 3.5 PH (damn, my memory isn´t getting any better these days...)
Gentle Repose, Cleric 2/SorWiz 3. It "...preserve(s) the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay.", with a duration of one day per level. Not a permanent solution, but a start.
A spell to prevent decay permanently should be cleric level 4 or 5, and wizard one level higher, IMHO.Stefan
Doesn't gentle repose also "stop the clock" with regard to time limits for raise dead? If so, making a 4th or 5th level spell that makes gentle repose permanent makes raise dead into resurrection.
How about a 4th level necromancy spell called "incorruptible flesh" that has no effect on how far away the spirit is. It just keeps the corpse all juicy and un-rotten?
If you had a spell that
|
Speaking as an expert, I would go with the Black Bard's description above. However, my own personal rule is that the magic that animates a zombie generally slows down the process of decay, so that it might take months (or even years) for a zombie to reach the stage where he transforms into a skeleton.
You could also rule that inherent negative energy aura of undeads repels insects and bacteria. Of course then you would have those maggot-infested horrors only if they are freshly animated.
Decay of a zombie would then be limited to physical "erosion" and would at some point lead to skeletons (unless the zombie was simply staying still away from weather) but the process would be considerably slower.
In reguards to gentle repose.... there's a nifty little spell called permanency... it's in there for a reason
Ewww... I don't even want to really think about that. There are some things that are just "wrong," no matter what.
hehe guess I shouldnt tell you I bought a bumper sticker for that character notebook that they had down at the gaming store; "Put the Love back in Necromancy" yes, very ewh; but so is that character; bit lost on the moral ambiguities of life and death. Sometimes I hate playing distrubing characters, but he fit the theme the gm wanted for the game.
Speaking as an expert, I would go with the Black Bard's description above. However, my own personal rule is that the magic that animates a zombie generally slows down the process of decay, so that it might take months (or even years) for a zombie to reach the stage where he transforms into a skeleton.
hehe, surely Aberzombie would know; he is after all a zombie; hehe, but I would think that temperature and climate would have a lot to do with it; and predators like bugs; ewh; best to keep your zombies in the ground until needed if they start to rot; in game terms; if you create a zombie and all the flesh falls off is it still a zombie after all you didnt create a skelly; can you dip your skellies in molten metal like bronze or iron to give em better defense? can you pad them? These are all current questions running around our game table as well as how many modifications can you make to a skeleton before it becomes a golem.
|
|
can you dip your skellies in molten metal like bronze or iron to give em better defense? can you pad them? These are all current questions running around our game table as well as how many modifications can you make to a skeleton before it becomes a golem.
There was an article in Dragon not too long ago about improving your undead (sorry, can't remember which issue). In addition, I think Libris Mortis had some spells that would be useful for agumenting undead.
In addition, I think Libris Mortis had some spells that would be useful for agumenting undead.
Yes it did. There's also Nulathoe's ninemen from the Forgotten Realms, which strengthens skeletal undead as well as (I think) iron bones or somesuch spell like that.
I think it's stone bones
maybe theres a "souped up" version of called iron bones though
I generally say a zombie is a zombie is a zombie; how else can i justify zombies wandering around a 1000 year old sealed up tomb?
Found something in Secret College of Necromancy.
Under the category of Fleshy Undead (zombies, ghouls, wights, vampires, flayed men and other undead made from whole bodies) it says "The bodies of the fleshy undead are imbued with negative energy that animates and sustains them". I read this to mean, that the zombie will remain in that state as when animated. Fresh corpse = fresh zombie.
There is also a nice undead durability table: anywhere between
Hard Use: daily march, frequent battles, exposure to the elements...; a skeleton will last 2-4 months and a zombie 1-2.
.
.
.
Not used: created and abandoned (tomb guardians); a skeleton 200+ years and a zombie up to 100 years.
The spells mentioned before are nice and all but I think I have found my answer here.
There´s also some quite nice new spells and feats in SCoN too...
ok; I guess we have all been getting close to this; what is a zombies charisma? sure they cant talk; but can they look good. Can they have a decent appearance if made in a more or less fresh state. What happens if you give them an item of charisma boost; say +4 or +6 charisma like the spell? Do people who smell bad have lesser charisma? Just how effective do you think it would be to load up a zombie on appearance related magic gear and just ordered it not to talk; could you put it in a store window to model bathing suits? hehe, how much charisma do you loose becoming undead? I remember the saying; live fast and leave a beautiful corpse; guess you could start with a really good looking corpse; wow this thread is really getting out there....
ok; I guess we have all been getting close to this; what is a zombies charisma? sure they cant talk; but can they look good. Can they have a decent appearance if made in a more or less fresh state. What happens if you give them an item of charisma boost; say +4 or +6 charisma like the spell? Do people who smell bad have lesser charisma? Just how effective do you think it would be to load up a zombie on appearance related magic gear and just ordered it not to talk; could you put it in a store window to model bathing suits? hehe, how much charisma do you loose becoming undead? I remember the saying; live fast and leave a beautiful corpse; guess you could start with a really good looking corpse; wow this thread is really getting out there....
That gets back to the old conversation about what Charima actually represents. Is it being pretty or is it some intanglible (and hard to explain) personality trait?
If it's the former, then you might be able to "tart up" your zombies (OMG, the images that brings up...).
If it's the later, I doubt there is anything that can be done to give a zombie that indefinable "something" that makes it appealing to hang around with, listen to, etc.
or, theres a spell called "awaken undead" in savage species
1d6+4 intelligence to all undead in a large radius at the low low cost of 200 exp
thatd go a long way to making a "living" socially acceptable zombie
if you want ill type up the entie spell for you... or would that be illegal?
Under the category of Fleshy Undead (zombies, ghouls, wights, vampires, flayed men and other undead made from whole bodies) it says "The bodies of the fleshy undead are imbued with negative energy that animates and sustains them". I read this to mean, that the zombie will remain in that state as when animated. Fresh corpse = fresh zombie.
Yup, that would make sense. Also means that zombies do heal over time, so if your brave adventurers went to the necromancer's lair and made damage to zombies before running away, when they return there after a month the zombies would have healed to full hit points.
As for the charisma question, I wouldn't give mindless creatures CHA score and CHA enhancers wouldn't work on them. If they look good or bad is a judgment call. And using zombies as mannequins is sort of hysterical idea I have to consider using somewhere...
Actually, to be a creature, the subject must have a Wisdom and Charisma score. That's what separates a golem from a magic item. So, a zombie has to have one, although I think non-intelligent creatures, such as zombies, skeletons, and golems, typically have a Wisdom of 10 and a Charisma of only 1. Thus, Magdalena remains on the right track, as it would be near impossible to get a magic item powerful enough to make it anywhere close to what you are thinking about, provided the DM would even allow it. I know I'd have to give it some serious thought.
I also side with those that state the rate of decay of a zombie should be left to the creative desires of the animator, generally an NPC, and thus the DM's wishes, but if the character of a player has some undead, the player should be able to exercise his feelings over how a zombie should decay or not.
Personally, I feel they wouldn't decay, but, as was said, remain pretty much as they were at the time of animation. In some cases, such as when exposed to hard and/or extended use, poor environments (wet and/or humid), the zombie would decay somewhat, but there would be a definate minimum amount of flesh that would remain to continue counting the creature as a zombie.
That said, what about a template or spell or something that allowed for the creation of zombies that, when normally destroyed, the flesh simply falls off to reveal a skeletal version of the same creature, perhaps at half hit points or something? No new template is needed, as both zombies and skeletons obviously already exist; simply a way to bring about such creatures.
Oh, and all the people throwing around Libris Mortis- if there's anyone here that's really interested in the undead and doesn't have it, get it! It's an excellent supplement. I think a lot of what people are thinking of is the "corpse crafter" line of feats. If you make a high-level BBEG that has all of those, watch out! Even a mob of human skeletons remains a viable threat to mid- and even some high-level parties when made using those options. And if someone takes Mother Cyst and the associated spells, talk about pure evil DM fun. >:)
|
|
Also for a Zombie-type critter that doesn't have'ta stink then check out the Living Zombie template from FR Champions of Ruin. I'm not a FR'er, but I borrowed it recently to lend to a more historically accurate rendition of zombies.
Living Zombie? LIVING ZOMBIE!? Why that is BLASPHEMY! I resemble that remark!
Yep; Libre Mortis is one of the best books out there; excellent if you want to make happy with undead or destroy them; feats, skills and spells for both. An excellent supplement for a player; a must for a DM.
Does anyone remember if zombies have int or charisma? my books are out in the car and I dont remember offhand. If you have a score then it can obviously be bumped with any of the ways any stat can be bumped and as there are many that add if they come from different sources as per the rules; the nightmare of good looking zombie wenches could become a game reality; hmm, might sit down with my source material and see what I can come up with for a final score. Anyone else gonna try?
Zombies have no Int and a Cha of 1.
Zombies have no Int and a Cha of 1.The hell you say! I think therefore I am, and I think I'm a zombie engineer. No brains my decayed, festering buttocks!
And just so you know, the chicks dig me.
Oh. I didn´t mean to offend.
I´m sure, you´re the exeption to the universal rule of being zombie.
That said, what about a template or spell or something that allowed for the creation of zombies that, when normally destroyed, the flesh simply falls off to reveal a skeletal version of the same creature, perhaps at half hit points or something? No new template is needed, as both zombies and skeletons obviously already exist; simply a way to bring about such creatures.
That might be a nasty surprise: The PCs hack their way trough Zombies, and when they down one, it just sheds its flesh and comes back as a animated skeleton :-) And if you want your players getting really sick, describe the fleshshedding process in grisly detail... You just have to add up the hit dice from zombie and skeleton, invent a variant animate dead which covers both creatures and the fleshshedding, and voilá! there you are.
Stefan
|
|
Zombies have no Int and a Cha of 1.The hell you say! I think therefore I am, and I think I'm a zombie engineer. No brains my decayed, festering buttocks!
And just so you know, the chicks dig me.
Oh. I didn´t mean to offend.
I´m sure, you´re the exeption to the universal rule of being zombie.
Naah, that's OK. I'm actually one of those rare Ju Ju Zombies. We retain our intelligence. Sadly, my kind did not get updated to 3E or 3.5 (at least, not that I know of).
Naah, that's OK. I'm actually one of those rare Ju Ju Zombies. We retain our intelligence. Sadly, my kind did not get updated to 3E or 3.5 (at least, not that I know of).
Unapproachable East, page 66.
Stefan
|
|
Naah, that's OK. I'm actually one of those rare Ju Ju Zombies. We retain our intelligence. Sadly, my kind did not get updated to 3E or 3.5 (at least, not that I know of).Unapproachable East, page 66.
Stefan
Aw crap! That's one of those books that I don't own. Thanks though Stebehil, it's nice to see my kind getting some respect again!
How interesting... JuJu Zombies understand all languages they knew, but are incapable of speech.
It seems they can write also.
My ruling is that unless specifically mentioned in their descriptions is that undead do not continue to rot from the point where they have been animated/changed into undead; negative energy prevents this decay as it provides it a state of "life".
Therefore, a zombie looks as it always did from the point of being animated; inflict spells restore its body in a matter akin how to cure spells restore a living being. This means that the body's condition will not continue to worsen over time due to use or damage.
Gentle repose works on corpses. Corpses are objects, and not creatures.
This means that you cannot use the spell on an undead creature, the primary purpose is to increase the time that raise dead can be used (it does not work on the time for other raising spells such as resurrection and true resurrection).